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Heads up. Probably time to buy popcorn futures. – iridescent 16:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Market cornered. And where did I put my old CV? Seriously, though, I can't imagine how they expect to retain a low profile. Stings should drive them into the open fairly quickly, if that is the community's desire.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, we do not intent to keep a low profile; why would you assume so? On the contrary, to successfully supply a growing network of participating wikipedians with paid assignments, we have to make our offer well-known to prospective clients. This is why we announced our service via nationally-distributed press-release. I believe that our services will benefit not only participating writers, but also Misplaced Pages. Alex Konanykhin / founder of WikipediaExperts. AKonanykhin (talk) 19:05, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Yea it's probably easy to spot their accounts, this is WP:COI fest. Secret 16:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Then look to see what editors have articles in common in the last couple of months. Popcorn anyone?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I have a strong suspicion I know who's behind it. As per my previous comments in the days of MWB, I personally don't have a problem with it—if the articles they contribute meet WP standards then it doesn't matter who's behind it, and if they don't they'll be deleted in the usual manner. I don't see that the COI here is any stronger than a fan editing the article on their favorite band. However, others disagree. – iridescent 16:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

They don't insert any desinformation, so no need to worry. –xeno 16:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Probably with an eye to sailing under their true colors here. After all, they must know that putting that page out there is like throwing the proverbial red flag before a bull.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

"Just like financial auditors, we charge for our time, but with explicit requirement of UNCOMPROMISED INTEGRITY". Has he ever actually met an auditor? – iridescent 16:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure; I ran a few banks and that involved meeting auditors. AKonanykhin (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

"the pro bono work of the participating editors"... it's a simple scam. Physchim62 (talk) 16:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I wonder what makes you assume the worst? I've done plenty of philantropy (sponsoring museums, theathers, medical research, etc.) - it's fun to promote what you like; even though my primary business is business, like seeing market niches where supply lags behind demand and capitalizing on the opportunity. AKonanykhin (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

It took around a minute to do some relevant digging. Of note, is that the domain(s) are part of the KMGi (advertising agency) group. You can all find the phone number for owner Alex K - indeed even get a photo of the chap off our article on him - with minimal effort if you want to chat to him. Pedro :  Chat  16:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

To make the digging easier, KMGi's and my URLs were included in our press-release. I'll try to answer here all substantive points, though it may take some time due to my travel plans during this Thanksgiving week. AKonanykhin (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I personally dont have a problem with this as long as the article still meets WP's standards. In point of fact of the article goes higher than B clas it will still have to be reviewed by another editor anyway. I do however think that we should require something be put on the affected articles talk page (maybe something to the effect of this article was developed in part by a paid contributer) and or identify said users as paid editors. In my opinion its ok if someone is getting paid by someone to make and article or a group of articles on WP better but we should mark both to make sure that they arent running amuck. IF someone wants to pay someone else to edit an article that can be edited for free then let them spend the money (its sorta like a donation). --Kumioko (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I also don't see a problem with this as long as it is transparent. Services like this wont go away, in fact they will just increase as the years go by. Doing our best to reign them in will save countless of hours of BS. I say allow paid editing as long as it is transparent under WP:COI. This particular group appears to wish to work in compliance with Misplaced Pages policies. It is much better for Misplaced Pages to welcome paid editors in a transparent manner than to endlessly deal with the hassle of anonymous COI editing.Griswaldo (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggested to Jimbo establishing reasonalbe oversight procedures over consultancies like ours. We want to make sure that we establish ourselves as the factor which facilitates Misplaced Pages's development, and not be suspected of being fly-by-night hackers who pollute it with advertorials. AKonanykhin (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Having browsed their site, I am concerned by the following statements and the underneath implication: "represent your company in a positive, but objective manner." and "When damaging content is spotted, the changes will be undone by our staff." While I believe their editors would produce material that seemingly conforms to all policies, I am concerned that they would intentionally leave out and/or remove material negative to the client's public image. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 17:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a given they themselves will intentionally miss out negative information, but they do state that they cannot remove true negative information - to be fair they've done their research for this site - just more fool anyone who pays them 99 dollars a month for something they could do themselves. Pedro :  Chat  17:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)And that is different from your average editor editing in areas they feel strongly about how? Most of the content creation and content haggling here is POV already, at least with transparent paid editing the POV is out in the open for everyone to see. It is much easier to review such work and to correct it for POV issues.Griswaldo (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I also agree. Im sorta on the fence I admit and the system works pretty well as we have it however I do believe this activity is currently going on in the shadows and if we build in some acceptance and a way to keep track of it then we can not only bring it out of the shadows but also potentially gain from it. I do think we need to proceed cautiously, maybe do it as a test to see how it goes, maybe even creating a different class of user similar to the Articles for creation process where it must be reviewed prior to being allowed. I think if we go about this the right way WP can gain from this and at the same time retain credibility. But if we just give a blanket allowance then we will take a big credibility hit. IMO anyone who wants to do something like this as a professional will meet the requirements we establish and those that do not wil get banned. And they will be found out, they always do. I believe that in order for the customer to gain anything from the article it would need to be at least a GA, probably A class or FA so as I mentioned before they will be heavily reviewed before they get done. With that said I do foresee edit wars, heated arguments, etc coming out of some of them as well as the potential for some POV editing and pruning out damaging details. --Kumioko (talk) 18:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I think it is reasonable to expect that editors for such a business make their conflict of interest transparent and otherwise comply with the conflict of interest guidelines. If they do, they're as welcome to help us improve Misplaced Pages as any other COI editor.  Sandstein  18:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the probability will be that they will not disclose their COI, in order to maximize the degree to which they can post positive information and downplay or delete negative information. Any article in which they declare who they are an what they are doing will be watched by many editors eager to keep them on the straight and narrow, whereas if they attempt to fly under the radar and are successful at it, there would be much less attention given to their edits. The lack of any significant downside to trying this makes it probable that they will do so. Therein lies the potential danger to the project. (I'm quite willing to extend AGF to individual editors, but once they act collectively, and with a financial motivation, it's less imperative to do so.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:32, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I do agree Sandstein, and also agree to a lot of the comments of Kumioko (not sure about user classses, but I get your thrust). The simple truth is that this is a commercial organisation. A simple Google check shows they have already generated some commentary regarding their venture. If they (i.e. "their" editors - and that is a seperate conversation!) start editing with overt POV they get blocked. When enough get blocked, then their credibility is ruined. Their credibility is ruined = end of business venture. That's my take on it, from a purely commercial view. Pedro :  Chat  19:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

(undent) My own personal opinion is that I am fine with the concept of professional writers contributing provided that their conflict of interest is clearly and explicitely disclosed (that what they are doing is, in the end, work for hire). They claim explicitly that they will follow our policies; if they do, they'd already be a darn sight better than many volunteers. If they don't, of if they try to behave covertly, then they will be found out and I expect the entire community would fall on them like a ton of sharp bricks, destroying any credibility in the process. — Coren  19:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Also in the case of a "business" view it should be fairly easy to track the IP range of computers within an organization that does these types of edits. If we create a report or list or something similar to the one we have for Congressional staff then that will be another way to monitor their activity. It is also possible to establish a bot to monitor for certain things and revert them or post a message of the activity somewhere like the administrative incidents notice board. In the End I should reiterate that Jimbo has been adamently opposed to commercial ventures of this type and although he generally lets the community decide rules of use and the developement of guidelines he has the final say. Since this affects WP as a business and could affect its credibility its probable that even if concensus is that it be allowed its unlikely that he will allow it. But things change and if we develop a process and rules that sufficientl govern, monitor and control it, he may allow this to at least test the feasability. Remeber too that WP is a not for profit entity and allowing these types of edits could (im not a lawyer just branstorming here) affect that status or may affect some of the corporate donations that provide WP its funding. If for example a company hires someone to write articles on topics related to them and they are a competitor of a company that supports WP it could impact the site negatively or be made into a media spectacle by the news. --Kumioko (talk) 20:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You can actually apply for a job through them, so it's not one organisation. Anyone can do it as a 'contractor', and they'd presumably edit from home. I for one will be blocking most undeclared paid editors on sight, because they "appear, based on their edit history, to exist for the sole or primary purpose of promoting a person, company, product, service, or organization". I don't mind paid editors editing Misplaced Pages, as long as they a.) declare it and b.) recuse themselves from any discussions regarding their customers. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 22:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If they're undeclared, how are you going to block them on sight? Spidey-sense? – iridescent 22:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's change that to 'block them as soon as I realise and have proof". A paid editor would fight to the death to keep one of these articles going, like Danieldis47 (talk · contribs) did, at which point it becomes pretty obvious. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Um, "recuse themselves from any discussions" is the opposite of what we want. We want people with a COI to talk to us. We even get very upset (to the point of blocking them) if they don't talk to us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• At which point I would come into the discussion and say this: We are extraordinarily ineffective at providing neutral, well-written, relatively complete and well-referenced articles about businesses and individuals - even as of this writing we have tens of thousands of unreferenced and poorly referenced BLPs - and equally bad at maintaining and updating them. Given this remarkable inefficiency, and the fact that a Misplaced Pages article is usually a top-5 google hit for most businesses and people, there's plenty of good reason for our subjects to say "enough is enough" and insist on having a decent article. We've all seen the badly written BLPs and the articles about companies where the "controversies" section contains every complaint made in the last 10 years. We aren't doing the job ourselves, and it's unrealistic to think that we can: the article-to-active editor ratio is 1:960 right now, and getting higher all the time. I'm hard pressed to tell someone that they can't bring in a skilled Misplaced Pages editor, following our own policies and guidelines, to bring an article they're interested in up to our own stated standards. As to COI, one wonders why financial benefit seems to raise all these red flags, when undisclosed membership in various organizations, personal beliefs, and life experiences may well lead to an even greater COI. "Put it on the talk page" only works if (a) someone is watching the article, (b) that someone doesn't have their own perspective that they feel is more valid, (c) and someone is willing to actually edit the article. Those three conditions aren't being met nearly enough (see editor-to-article ratio above). We've created the very situation where organizations and people are no longer willing to accept that they have to put up with a bad article about themselves. And precisely why should they be prevented from improving our project? Risker (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree with Risker. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with her to a point, and when I say 'recuse themselves' I mean 'stay neutral but declared' rather tha, for example, voting KEEP in every AfD and launching ad hominem attacks on those they see as 'against' them. I work at OTRS, as you all know, so I'm more aware than most of the problems that our articles cause to people. However, our current system - through OTRS or talk pages - provides an avenue of reply to those who disagree with their article's content. I've seen two sides of paid editing: One side which is insidious, immoral and tarnishes the reputation of the project - the other side is full of people who do follow our rules and happily own up to it when they're first questioned. I don't mind the second sort of paid editor. However, the damage done to our reputation by the first sort is simply too great to ignore. Risker is right, but I think the real solution here is fewer articles, or more good editors. Can we stop all editors with a COI from editing a related article? Of course not, but that doesn't mean we should encourage it. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• They are infringing on the use of "Misplaced Pages®", a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation. Not clever. Who wants to sick the lawyers on 'em? Fences&Windows 23:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
• Chase me ladies, are you going to block user:Amorrise and User:Rhettroberts who appear to be shilling for something call AutoPal? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:32, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to block those accounts because they're from April 2010, and the problem with them is clearly over. A block would really be wasted effort. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't want you to put yourself out, but you may wish to look more closely. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, I still don't think it's quite enough for a block - judging by the talk page edit to BuyNowPayNow, he may just be a new user. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the user's first serious edit and later edits, the intervening motive should be abundantly clear. Without contravening WP:OUTING, I am unable to provide more evidence, but I am sure that you would find yet another reason not to block them. Can you perhaps outline the circumstances under which you would block someone for paid editing, or would you like to walk back your "I for one will be blocking most undeclared paid editors on sight etc" claim now? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Q: Do you guarantee the articles you write will be accepted by Misplaced Pages?
  • A: We guarantee that we will submit professional content, consistent with Misplaced Pages rules and standards; however, Misplaced Pages does not have a central acceptance authority that makes a final conclusion about the admissibility of articles. An article may be flagged, edited and removed at any time by any user or administrator. In such cases, we will make the necessary changes and resubmit it until it is accepted.
• The $295 introduction package covers up to five hours of work. This is enough to complete most articles. If extra work is required, we apply our standard billing rate of $95/hour, with the detailed verifiable time reporting via our Transparent Billing application.
• The $99 monthly fee includes:
  • Monitoring of your article by our proprietary software
  • Immediate intervention by our staff in case brand -damaging content is posted
  • Content updates whenever your company’s situation changes
  • The $99 fee covers up to two hours of work per month. This is enough for most articles. If extra work is required, we apply our standard billing rate of $95/hour, with the detailed verifiable time reporting via our Transparent Billing application.

We've had cases where folks charge to write an article. This is the first I've seen that includes a maintenance contract. It appears that the writers from this site intend to do whatever is necessary to prevent articles from being deleted. If they are not transparent in revealing their COI, and participate in AFDs, etc, then that's a problem.   Will Beback  talk  00:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This underlines the point I made above. "Immediate intervention by our staff in case brand-damaging content is posted" - do we really want to commercialise Misplaced Pages if this is the result? What happens when the AfD goes through and the company requires all its staff to formulate keep arguments and post them? What happens if one of those paid editors is the closing administrator? Slippery slope! Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that statement is inimicable to NPOV, which requires the inclusion of all significant points of view, even the "brand-damaging" ones.   Will Beback  talk  00:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• It is refreshing that some editors do declare their COI. Note this editor's involvement with the BLP of Alex Konanykhin. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Sort of an incentive to keep your maintenance contract. If you cancel it your article will be thrown to the wolves or worse yet, your former contractors will lead the brigade of pitchforks and torches.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Yeah, I was kinda thinking that too. I wonder how long until one of these companies decides to act like a protection racket? As an aside, what constitutes a "state of the art" article? I would hate to think I am writing obsolete articles... Resolute 00:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
  • @Resolute. The Cognoscenti generally agree that Mobile Suit Gundam is state of the art. Template off that, and you should be fine.Bali ultimate (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Are we going to take this seriously or not? - Paid for editing by corporate teams is happening all the time. Are we going to actually address this, and create a framework for this to happen, or continue to place our heads in the sand forever? In 2006, User:MyWikiBiz set up a paid for editing account, and all Misplaced Pages decided to do, was to ban it outright, block him, and delete his contributions. This is not going to make the problem go away, it is only going to drive it underground. This isn't MyWikiBiz, it isn't some kook, it's a professional marketing company, they're not idiots.

For newer editors who want to see how the previous discussion was handled, take a look at Arch Coal and its history. A very good starting point is its DRV, I made similar arguments then.

Misplaced Pages is too important, too visible for corporations and political entities to ignore. Paid for editing is happening right under our noses because our current policies at WP:COI keep them in the dark. The whole point of Misplaced Pages's open source model, is to allow for peer review, we should be embracing the strengths of open source to shine a light on their activities.

Ideas for a framework for paid-editing

• All paid-for editors must declare their position in particular, who they're working for and their clients, at a centralised page
• Paid editors must declare their positions on their user and talk pages
• It may be possible to create some user flag, to allow for all paid edits to be tracked centrally
• Repeal Misplaced Pages:USERNAME#Company.2Fgroup_names policy, and actually encourage users to be up front about their affiliations
• Allow the creation of role accounts. Entities may wish to use a single voice on Misplaced Pages, but they may have multiple personnel responsible. Instead of having pile-ons from meatpuppets, they would have a single consistent voice. This isn't useful just for COI, but I think would improve our WP:GLAM collaborations.

I think, just as I did in 2006, that there is a role for paid-for editing on Misplaced Pages. Our coverage of corporations is lacking, because unless they make video games, they don't have fans, and its fans generally, who start those articles regardless on any POV issues. The average consumer does not see what a B2B does - have you heard of Informatica? Well, they're worth over $3Bil, and we probably wouldn't have an article on them unless they wrote it themselves, which they did. Before we deleted it and decided to work against them, rather than with them. There are still holes in major market indices, let alone private corporations. Its clear that corporations are taking us seriously, we need to start taking them seriously, the status quo is not good enough. - hahnchen 00:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

You say we cannot maintain the status quo, but I ask, "why not?". If the paid editors become POV pushers, we block them, just as we do any other POV pusher. If they add quality content within our guidelines, we let it stand. If paid editors are willing to advertise their position, by all means let them. If they don't, there isn't really anything we can do about it. You speak of requiring paid editors to note that they are such; how do we enforce this? You have been asking "how should we deal with paid editors", but a question we must answer first is "what can we do about paid editors?". As I see it, we have three general options.

1. We can block them as soon as we have proof that they're being paid. The obvious ones get caught, the less obvious continue with their work. I don't favor this approach, but it's what we've done in the past.
2. We can just ignore it, and treat their contributions like we would any other editor, whether they reveal that they're being paid or not. I prefer this approach.
3. Or, we can make up some "rules" that paid editors must follow. Maybe some will follow these rules, many certainly won't. I think this approach sets up an antagonistic relationship that isn't necessary.

These are really the only choices we have. We can't ban paid editing outright, and we can't require that all paid editors "register" or take on their own user class (these attempts fall under options 1 and 3, respectively). Buddy431 (talk) 01:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The status quo keeps COI editors in the dark. Misplaced Pages:Best practices for editors with conflicts of interest says that you shouldn't create or edit articles. Please get real. Proposals Misplaced Pages:Paid editing (guideline) and Misplaced Pages:Paid editing (policy) want to outright ban it. This cannot be done.

Our framework should dictate all paid editors declare themselves, or face bans if caught - it's not going to be easy for a corporation to move IP addresses. There should be a way to monitor all COI edits. We should allow disclosures in their usernames and allow role accounts to make it even clearer.

Right now, we have no framework, and an antagonistic attitude towards any COI editors that we find. Because of this, disclosure is rare and responses scattered. - hahnchen 13:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There has always been and likely always will be paid editors whether we allow them to be open about it is the only issue. Meanwhile the COI crusaders can carpet bomb hundreds of articles with COI tags so the tag is rendered meaningless. It would be more constructive to get COI and paid editors to simply follow the editing rules and continue to show the disruptors the door.Wroted (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Or of course, we can let the paid editing crusaders carpet bomb hundreds of articles with POV so the article is rendered useless. Works both ways. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 02:21, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

So to be clear, POV problems only come from paid editors or do you mean all paid editors are POV crusaders? Either way you're mistaken. We deal with POV issues and any others the exact same way. Wroted (talk) 02:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Is there any way the Foundation can contact this website and explain to them what exactly they are doing? I tried, they don't seem to be taking regular people seriously. I, for one, am blocking any users who are writing spam articles and being paid to do so. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

OTRS could potentially do it - potentially, and only with approval from the appropriate office folks - but what would we say? 'What you're doing is sort of not OK with us?' Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 02:26, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the website knows exactly what they're doing. They're professionals - KMGi (advertising agency), an article written by User:Camper-mann. - hahnchen 13:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Idea, we could have a policy where all paid editors are required to request the "paideditor" flag/group. We could than more easily track these contributions, we could also maybe do something with flagged revisions on these edits,,,? I agree with others above. This isn't going away, might as well manage it. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 02:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This presumes that paid editors will be treated with good faith - which they obviously are not - and that they all will identify themselves which is absurd because there is little to gain and no way for us to know. Wroted (talk) 02:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The paid editors tend to create whitewashed articles.

I reported a user here: who is editing on behalf of Neovia (Neteller) and has performed an outrageous whitewash job on the article as I noted previously, but also since then . (Nothing was done) The article is a corporate fantasy (cf. ) and the interests of wikipedia are certainly not served by having it edited by the corporation. Sumbuddi (talk) 04:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

that in and of itself doesn't mean all paid editors (that we know of because they have self-identified or have been outed by a certain group invested in such things) does not mean all paid editors are bad just as we know better than to assume all non-paid editors are good. Instead we know those pushing a POV, whether it be against Misplaced Pages in general or pro-corporate are likely not worth keeping around. An easy content kept vs disruption ratio would feret ot those whose goals are against Misplaced Pages.Wroted (talk) 10:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I also attempted to contact them and although I have for the most part been willing to go along with allowing this was given the distinct impression they would only deal with Wikicorporate concerns and not those of the individual editors. In the end that won't matter when and if they start actually editing but it does give me pause to reflect on how best to approach the matter and makes it clear to me that there will be some growing pains if this is allowed. One major concern that I do have is that if they have enough editors under their employ they could theoretically force consensus in their favor so we should devise a plan to rule that out as well.--Kumioko (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is "The encyclopedia anyone can edit." WP:COI allows users to make contributions to articles where a conflict of interest exists, so long as those edits are neutral. We all have conflicts of interest. If someone wants to offer their Misplaced Pages editing services for hire, they are doing this externally to Misplaced Pages. There is nothing we can and should do. Paid editing happens here all the time. Treat paid articles the same way you would any article. If it's an article written within our guidelines, fine. If it isn't, we have WP:CSD and WP:AFD. If someone wants to be disruptive about it, we have WP:BLOCKING. We already have the tools in place, and we already use them. Paid editing just happens under the radar. If someone wants to do it publicly, more power to them. If their editing skills aren't up to par and they can't get articles past our editing standards, this is not our problem. Prohibiting paid editors, however, is simply not an option. N419BH 06:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Offer to WikipediaExperts

Hi, hope you're reading this. I think anyone planning to pay your fees may be deterred by this beauty currently sitting on your front page, above the "Free Consultation" box:

We will gladly provide a free consultation for you, including a proposal on developing your visibly on Misplaced Pages and in other social media

That should read "visibility".

WikipediaExperts, if you're reading this, I offer that correction to you for free, but can I recommend you add an 'edit' button, so we can help you out properly? This collaborative editing thing we have going here really is quite powerful.

I'm offering to copyedit your site for you, (something I have some 'expertise' in) in exchange for a $1,000 donation to the Wikimedia foundation... oh, and a thank you on my user talk would be nice. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 11:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

You missed "desinformation" SmartSE (talk) 17:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Also on the same page, missed 'free of chaNge', that should be 'free of chaRge'. I will consult with the parties involved and reply to your offer soon. Thanks.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     21:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Cutting to the chase

I am inviting User:Eclipsed to contribute to this discussion. As I pointed out upthread (forgetting that subtlety is wasted here), Eclipsed has declared a COI on their user page and just today proposed that "...both the Article Incubator and Articles for Creation be denoted as Safe Harbors for COI contributions". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the invitation. I will read through all the discussions, and reply as soon as I can.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     14:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• re: Trademark - I will make sure this is brought to the attention of the appropriate people.
• re: Discussion with WMF - There has been some communication, but I do not know the status.
• re: Risk of forced consensus - Important issue. This has to be mitigated as best as possible.
• re: My declaring COI - Wow. That was not an easy thing to do. I knew that once I clicked Save Page that my life as a wikipedian would be changed forever. There would be no going back. I thought there was a really big chance I'd get ANI'd and eternally banned, plus have all my clients pissed off at me for the trouble I caused. That didn't happen, and I am much appreciative of the WP:AGF approach taken by everyone involved.

Thanks!     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     23:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand Eclipsed's statement that he or she has an "Inherent Conflict Of Interest". In respect to what? A conflict of interest must be in relation to something else: a person, a company, a subject or some sort. There is no such thing as an "inherent" general COI. What is Eclipsed COI about, or is this some kind of goof? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

There's a discussion about that on my talk page. I was concerned about WP:NOTADVERTISING.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     03:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You should declare the company you work for in your disclosure statement, just saying you have an "inherent conflict of interest" is fairly meaningless. That you're worried about NOTADVERTISING pretty much shows the lack of framework we have for paid editing. - hahnchen 13:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, will work on improving the statement. I'm guessing that it is pretty obvious by now who I work for, and that I'm part of the C-suite of the newly formed company that is being discussed in this thread. Having a clearer framework for commercial editing would be most helpful.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     14:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that a clear framework for commercial editing would be a good idea. Generally, the choices are to ignore it, to ban it or to regulate it. I believe the first is irresponsible and the second is impractical, so I would suggest that paid editors be required to register at a central location and to specify their COI (specifically as paid editors) on article talk pages, that there be a clear benefit to doing so (ability to edit freely, within the bounds of COI policy, or a new paid-COI policy) and a negative incentive for not registering, such as that all their edits are deleted en-masse (as far as is practical) if unregistered paid editing is discovered. Paid editors should also be disqualified from serving as admins or functionaries. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Re-hashing old discussions

If this is going to turn into a re-hash of Project talk:Paid editing (guideline) (and related pages), except with a different (new) set of paid editors being held up as examples, then could you please hold it either there or on the Village Pump, where the discussion will be seen as involving all of the editorship? Uncle G (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that editors hired by companies to whitewash their articles go beyond COI and beyond paid editing. A person named in a Misplaced Pages article has a personal stake, yes, but he also has his own knowledge, decision-making power, and reputation. A hired whitewasher is just an hourly employee with no special ability to improve an article, but every motivation to make it worse. Based on occasional editing forays it is my opinion that a substantial fraction of corporate articles, but certainly not all, are currently guarded by such employees (e.g. Apple iProducts); I assume they work for some more discreet operation.

The key factor to consider here is that for me to remain unsure that a given editor is really a company shill (I haven't named anyone here because I am unsure), he has to edit many topics about many different companies. This implies that either a lot of time is wasted on camouflage edits, or else a lot of companies do business with the same Wiki fix-it firm. While I can't tell just by looking at edits one by one, a mechanized tool might be built which looks at the web of associations between company articles and tries to find statistically significant overlap in the editors who rapidly revert edits made to their pages. Wnt (talk) 22:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Conflict of interest doesn't mean someone can't edit. We have editors with conflicts of interest editing all the time. Some cause problems by it, others do not. The key thing to keep in mind is whether or not the editor with a conflict of interest is not following our policies and guidelines. There is a big difference between someone being hired to white wash an article and someone simply being hired to pay attention to subjects that might be notable but might not otherwise garner editor attention. If they stay within our policies and guidelines, blocking on sight is nothing more than sour grapes and WP:POINTY edits. I'd seriously question the competency of any admin that did so without evidence that the account in question was violating the 5 pillars.--Crossmr (talk) 04:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

No honour among thieves?

I am curious about the interactions between User:Eclipsed and user:Sigma0 1, who, like Eclipsed, is a paid editor. Eclipsed appears to have nominated a number of their articles for deletion, but the remark that I think needs explanation is this one where Eclipse suggests that Sigma0 1 read the WP:COI guideline. If Misplaced Pages allows paid editors, are we likely to see more of this type of activity where competing companies fight amongst themselves or carry on proxy battles with good-hand/bad-hand sockpuppets? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I nominated a few of Sigma0 1's articles for deletion, because I felt they did not meet the inclusion standards of Misplaced Pages. I felt Sigma0 was operating in a negative manner, based on a disregard for the policies and guidelines agreed to by the community. Sigma0 was putting his clients first, instead of wikipedia first. Any paid or commercial editor operating inside wikipedia should "wear their wikipedia hat" first, and be able to tell their clients "No, you can't do that". Thanks.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     02:27, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

(Question: Should Sigma0_1 be officially notified of this discussion? If so, DeliciousC: I think you should do it, as you were the first to mention.)     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     03:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

A bit more clarity

Greetings! My name is David, and on Misplaced Pages my username is Eclipsed. I recently signed up as COO of the company named in this thread. My boss is Alex Konanykhin. I receive financial compensation for the work I do for this company. I would like to say more, but I feel to do so may be a violation of the spirit of WP:NOTADVERTISING.

A bit about how I came to be here: I was part of the underground economy. I came back from a long wikibreak because I got a freelance job to make a BLP, and it seemed like something fun to do. But after I started working on the article, I also started reading up on the guidelines and policies. It took a while to go through them all, and I got more freelance jobs in the meantime. I also had some of my team members help out, and tried my best to train them on the wiki-basics, NPOV, RS, etc. But eventually I came to realize that what I was doing was not acceptable to the community, and on the business side, it was not sustainable.

So I started puting feelers out. I put the articles I worked on up for peer review and put myself up for editor review. But no response, my requests just sat in the backlog. I even had a crazy notion of going up for RfA. I contacted a few people about admin tutoring and did a little self-review of my history. But in the end, I thought I'd get snowed, the whole RfA environment turned me off, and I knew there would be unmitigatable COI issues.

Then I met Alex. He showed me the website, and I was a bit shocked. The first thing I did was a WHOIS lookup, and saw his name, company address, contact info, everything! Right out in the open. Ouch. I thought there was no way I should join, the biz would surely get shut down within a few days of going public. But then we chatted some more, and I came to realize that he wanted to actually work within wikipedia, according to all the alphabet soup of guidelines and policies. After some more discussion about the Code of Ethics and the Pro bono plans, I was convinced and signed on.

More later, Thanks!     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     10:10, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Eclipsed, I believe one of the issues many people have with paid editing on Misplaced Pages is the feeling that there is often an inherent dishonesty in their dealings with other editors, which springs from their motivation which, unlike other editors, is not to accurately portray a person or product but simply to get that article up on Misplaced Pages, frame it as positively as possible and keep it there. While you are certainly well-spoken and much more clever than many of the paid editors I have encountered here, you also seem to suffer from the same inability to tell the whole truth.

• You returned from your long wikibreak to create the BLP of Guy Bavli on 3 October 2010
• All of your edits (as User:Eclipsed) are Bavli-related until you ccreated Online Legal Marketplace on 15 October 2010
• Also on 15 October 2010, you made your first Alex Konanykhin edit
• You put yourself up for editor review on 4 November 2010, nearly a month later

Your use of "team members" to edit articles with you is a very good tactic. Editors who are not aware that you are all paid editors working together -- and how could they know that? -- would have the impression that a subject is more well-known than they are or that there is some consensus among unrelated editors. Talk:Guy Bavli is a good example of this. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

These are all very good points. My 'journey' from the underground into the light was not an easy one. I've made mistakes. More then a few times. I'm hoping that I can stick around and try to help build some framework that everyone can accept, so we all know what mistakes to avoid. Thanks.     Eclipsed   (talk)   (code of ethics)     18:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

• Why are we helping to promote this service by advertising here? Just apply WP:DENY for best results. We find lots of people writing their own poor quality PR puff pieces on Misplaced Pages. If a professional gets involved, the results will either be the same or perhaps better. If a paid editor happens to write an acceptable quality article, we will ignore them. If they write bad articles which get deleted, we can warn and eventually block them. Existing processes are capable of dealing with this. Posting here is not helpful, and may actually be harmful. Jehochman 20:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Paid editors are vandals?

I am confused as to why the discussion above was collapsed with the rationale being WP:DENY, which is an essay about denying recognition to vandals. Although Jehochman suggested this discussion was promoting a particular company, I had just pointed out several inconsistencies in the story offered to us by User:Eclipsed. I note also that good-faith contributions to the discussion by the company's owner were reverted. We often skirt around the issue of COI and paid editing with suspected paid editors and admins. Rather than debating this issue in an echo chamber, wouldn't it be productive to engage known paid editor in a dialogue? Can we please re-open this discussion (or at least come up with a plausible reason for shutting it down)? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that WP:DENY is not particularly applicable. Surely the salient point is that this really isn't an admin question, and the discussion you want should take place elsewhere, I would think WP:VPP, since any consensus reached will probably require a change in the WP:COI policy, either to tighten it up, or re-framing it in regard to paid editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm sure that some people here would like to have a more general discussion about paid editing (and some would very much like to avoid having that discussion), but I am interested in discussing the specifics of this particular company and its editors. WP:AN seems to be an appropriate venue for that discussion and Eclipsed has very kindly agreed to participate here. I see no good coming from shutting down a productive dialogue on some flimsy excuse. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
    • First off, I'm someone who normally doesn't read this board, but only is here because the paid editing issue is always an...interesting...debate. I have to absolutely agree with DC here, as I don't understand how WP:DENY could apply (and in fact seeing it used in general almost always bothers me, though that's a discussion for another time). Both parties associated with the company seem to be acting in good faith, and deleting someone's comments because "the discussion is closed" seems more vandalistic than anything, or at the very least extremely bitey. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
      • See here for the reason. It would probably be good if an admin would conclude the discussion with an appropriate summary. N419BH 05:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Although I don't mind the collapsible box due to the length of the string I also think Deny was a bit short sighted. Whether we want to admit it or not we are going to have to deal with this eventually. As I see it we can either stick our heads in the sand and play see no evil or just work it out. Unless Jimbo comes and crushes this debate (a message has been left on his talk page) I think there are a lot of good points being argued on both sides. In my opinion though if we establish criteria and rules to deal paid editing, and they are editing in good faith and abiding the rules then why should they be turned away. --Kumioko (talk) 06:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You have Project talk:Paid editing (guideline) and Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy). Use them! Stop complaining that a mis-placed discussion, that should be had amongst the entire editorship and that is inappropriate for the administrators' noticeboard, didn't get very far here (mislabelling in the collapsenote aside). You know where the places for such discussions are. One has 10 pages of archives on this very subject. Use them! This is a noticeboard. Uncle G (talk) 07:24, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Quite. And FWIW, I know of course WP:DENY is about vandals, but the related principle of denying unnecessary recognition to paid editors seems similarly sound. If there are actual issues, they should be dealt with where appropriate, which is not here. Rd232 09:55, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There are actual issues, and since this started here I see no point in starting fresh discussion at AN/I where the background will need to be explained. Set aside the paid editing and look at the conduct of the editors involved. Look at Talk:Guy Bavli and tell me you don't consider what is happening there to be deceptive. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 11:55, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but he might be right. That page almost makes me wish I had a batch-blocking button. I'm trying my best not to block them all right now for being SPA advertising accounts. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 12:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The background would be better briefly summarised in a new thread, and you can point here if anyone wants the whole WP:TLDR discussion. There are possible WP:MEAT issues (cf User:Eclipsed/Adoptees). Rd232 13:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there's something very fishy about the KMGi related edits.   Will Beback  talk  00:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

• I guess it would violate DENY to point to this rant from a paid editor who was unhappy about being blocked (as a sock of a blocked editor). People like that make it clear why paid editing causes problems.   Will Beback  talk  00:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
• I have to say I see no reason surpassing other conflict of interest groups to deplore paid editors. Indeed I would rather deal with a paid editor than a nationalist, obsessive, crank, conspiracy theorist, fundamentalist or extremist, since they are likely to realise that bad behaviour will reflect badly on their clients. Rich Farmbrough, 11:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC).
  

If only that were so! Yes, it's hard to say which is worse among the paid editors, nationalists, Chauvinists, etc. But there are special problems with paid editors, and some of them vary depending on the contracts. For example, one company says it will post an article and keep it for a week or so, but it expects full payment once the article has been up for a few days. In other words, when it comes to AfDs the client is on their own. OTOH, another company offers a complete service, apparently including billable hours at AfD. And these activities are sometimes (always?) pursued by puppet accounts, with little or not transparency. Meanwhile the nationalists are likely to post flags and make themselves known. So there are important differences.   Will Beback  talk  12:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

How is what you fear going to increase from the current situation? The whole point here is to get greater transparency, and allowing paid editing will do that if anything. If a company declares COI editing of an entry, when it goes to AfD much greater scrutiny will come of it, and socks are much more likely to be caught than if a company is editing with an undeclared and hidden COI. Companies that violate our policies will be banned from editing just like other users. In fact if we write specific policies to deal with this we could more easily ban an entire company instead of it's individual employees. If we don't do this we will just see an ever increasing amount of secret COI editing by marketing companies.Griswaldo (talk) 16:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The major problem we have with paid editors is that they are usually paid to have a bias. It's hard to criticize the person who writes your paychecks. Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 23:15, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes and errrr, this also includes every source used in every article. Unless you want to argue they are all biased (in which case I would agree) it cant be a valid argument in lesser context? Can it? I'm no expert on the topic. 84.107.147.147 (talk) 04:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

More or less all published sources are biased, skewed and/or flawed one way or another. Those flaws are carried through to en.WP content. This is the core thinking behind the long standing WP:V: All one has is verifiability as to published source, truth is another topic altogether. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention that most top editors to a given article are at best enthusiasts of the topic they write about, and far from unbiased. Those lengthy articles about entertainers don't get written by detached non-fans, you know. Skomorokh 11:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

You can be a fan of someone or something and still write a fair article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Exactly! You can be paid for something and still write a fair article. Skomorokh 12:13, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I would guess that some of the most skillful among paid en.WP editors are those who write content which doesn't stir up any fuss, is thoroughly sourced and keenly written, all within the policies. This is the same thing done by many unpaid (but skilled) editors who are eager about their topics and it's how much of the content here has been built. A harmful editor/writer can be disruptive, PoV flogging and heedless to policy whether paid or unpaid. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I kind of thought it was agreed that this was not the place for this discussion. But since it continues anyway: a fundamental difference between a paid editor and someone advocating for a topic out of conviction is that we believe (WP:AGF) that (a) the latter is acting in the best interests of the encyclopedia as they see it (b) that they are open to persuasion, discussion, and argument. The paid editor has the interests of the subject (usually) at heart, and are not open to changing their mind in anything like the same way ("oh, right, this guy is non-notable, I'll give back my fee..."). Paid editors may be better at appearing to follow the rules, but because of the way Misplaced Pages's rules are mutable and inconsistently enforced, combined with the risk of socking or meatpuppetry, they are extremely dangerous if they exceed a very low proportion of editors. If POV nationalism is Misplaced Pages's cholesterol, paid editing is its cancer. The former you can manage (though it might cause heart attacks), the latter you just want to get rid of in case it one day causes death. Rd232 12:37, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

So it sounds to me that what where advocating is a WP version of "Dont ask, dont tell". We know thats its happening but as long as the paid editor keeps their mouth shut about it and maintains a low profile we pretend we dont know...but we know. Oh but if we "catch you" well block your account so go and create another one, maybe more than one using a different IP and or EMAIL address so that when we catch you, you wont be slowed down. I agree that POV editing is bad and I agree that there are serious risks to allowing paid editing, thats why we need to drag it out of the dark alleys and cast light on the shadows. If we draft some policies that must be followed in order for paid editors to operate (such as COI banners, preceding their comments with paid editor, forcing them to use an articles for creation/article incubator type system, or any number of other things) here then we are just kidding ourselves. Are we going to have to tweak things along the way, of course, absolutely, but if these editors are "professionals" and they want to continue to make money editing without having to hide, then they will abide. As an individual editor you can probably make a few bucks and stay hidden but for the big firms that have several editors and want to publicly and actively write, they are going to do it and if that means they have to generate dozens or hundreds of accounts, using different EMAIL domains and multiple source IP's then they will do that and generate a whole lot of work on us trying to figure them out. --Kumioko (talk) 18:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

If an article is written in such a way that it adheres to policy, what's the problem? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree and I have made my preferences known but in the end I fully believe that this whole conversation is just burning time and effort because there is almost zero chance that Jimbo would ever allow it. In that light I have left a message on his talk page to please come and make a comment, although he has done so before, so that we can put this baby to bed. If he is willing to allow the discussing of how WP can allow for paid editors without compromising the integrity and status of the community then great. Otherwise we may as well do as the jedi say and "Move on, there is nothing to see here." --Kumioko (talk) 19:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

What does it have to do with Jimbo? Malleus Fatuorum 19:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

He has vocally stated several times in the past that he is opposed to it and although he usually lets community concensus drive policy but allowing paid editors could have ramifications beyond simple editing including:

1. affecting the nonprofit status of WP and the WMF
2. loss of paid contributions by soe benefactors if paid editing is allowed
3. loss of editors who would no longer donate their time to a project that allowed paid editors
4. negative Press due to assumptions and arguments by the media.

So based on that and the potential affects it may have on WP, the WMF and on his business in general he would have the final say before something like this occurs. Wether he chooses to exercise it he does have the power to quash decisions that could affect the health of the project. IMO the items I mentioned above can be overcome if we plan and set policy accordingly. --Kumioko (talk) 19:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

He can state whatever he likes, as can any other editor, but I repeat what does it have to do with Mr Wales? Malleus Fatuorum 19:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the only problem is a philosphical one; "if I'm not being paid then nobody else should be paid either". But who knows, perhaps I am being paid for some of the stuff I write, who can tell? As you say BB, it's the quality of the product that ought to matter, not the motivations for its production. Malleus Fatuorum 19:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Rd232, thanks to your attempts to squelch a productive discussion about a particular company and the actions of that company's employees here, you have inadvertently managed to turn this into a discussion about the general issue, which has even attracted opinions from some of the less thoughtful ANI regulars. Something to think about next time, perhaps. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't productive, and it didn't belong here; and the reason it's continued is because of your refusal to accept the fact that it didn't. Start a discussion somewhere else, and drop a note here. End of. Rd232 19:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Why would I want to do that and face still more heavy-handed interference from people such as yourself? Keep your head in the sand, it's all the same to me. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

If you choose not to break up the issues into appropriate parts and discuss them at a relevant location, that's your call. Maybe someone else will. Though since nobody really has any solutions worth a damn, maybe it doesn't matter anyway. Rd232 20:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I recently started an RFC/U about this user’s conduct on a group of articles covered by a recent arbitration case. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/WeijiBaikeBianji

Few people have commented there so far, possibly because of Thanksgiving, so more comments from uninvolved admins would be appreciated.-SightWatcher (talk) 19:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

From what I understand, the account of the user above is currently being investigated by ArbCom. Mathsci (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I find it endlessly fascinating how you and WeijiBaikeBianji are making sure that this accusation of sockpuppetry gets brought up everywhere that WBB’s user conduct is being discussed. Nether of you has ever started an SPI about Sightwatcher, even though I already told you once (in Coren’s user talk) that this would be the appropriate course of action here. Or you could just let the arbitrators investigate him, if they’re actually doing that.

If Sightwatcher is currently being investigated by ArbCom, what is the reason for bringing this up here, in Coren’s user talk, at AE, and in the RFC/U itself? It isn’t as though the arbitrators would make a different decision about whether he’s a sock based on how many different places you and WBB have accused him of it. What possible purpose could your doing this serve, other than just distracting administrators from examining the user conduct issues that Coren suggested posting this RFC/U in order to examine? --Captain Occam (talk) 20:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

An arbitrator quite independently already ran a checkuser on SightWatcher. There is no accusation of sockpuppetry. If Captain Occam wishes for any clarification, he can contact arbitrators directly by email. Note also Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Ferahgo the Assassin. Mathsci (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

You posted your previous AE thread about us only four days ago. It hasn’t even been closed yet, none of the people commenting in it other than WeijiBaikeBianji think that what you’re complaining about there is actionable, and now you’ve posted a new complaint while your previous one is only halfway up the page. Do you not see anything unusual about what you’re doing? Your having acted similarly to this in the past at AN/I is one of the things that led to your topic ban. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom is looking at evidence of meatpuppetry, which cannot be discussed directly on wikipedia. If Captain Occam has misgivings, he can discuss this with a member of ArbCom. Mathsci (talk) 21:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The RFC/U is clearly linked at the top of this page, together with the other ones. Stop sniping at each other in every possible forum. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• The abominable Wiki troll (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (Sockpuppets)
• Jplarkin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The abominable Wiki troll is a banned sockpuppetteer. At User talk:79.75.198.46#Your unblock request, a person who claims to have used The abominable Wiki troll together with others requests to be unbanned. They claim that they have created the account Jplarkin (but no other recent accounts) in order to edit constructively; that account has recently been blocked for block evasion.

The request appears sincere to me, but because I am not familiar with The abominable Wiki troll, I'm not yet making a recommendation as to whether the community should grant it or not. I'm submitting the request to the community for consideration and am informing the admins who have previously interacted with The abominable Wiki troll about it. I have advised the person making the request, who also uses the IPs 88.104.*.*, that as far as I am concerned they may participate in this discussion unless another administrator objects to their participation, but that they must otherwise observe their ban until it is lifted.  Sandstein  11:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm forwarding the following that has been posted to my talk page:  Sandstein  15:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

"The situation is a bit of a mess, but one that can be resolved. As admins sussed out early on in the SI, this was not the work of just one person, with myself (a Tiscali editor) and another Virgin Media editor being the main players. However, several other users in my home (generaly students) have contributed to the sock. I stress that I'm not playing the "everything was my flatmate" card: I accept full responsibility for my actions. I have, as of literally NOW, demanded everyone else in my residence to stay away from Wiki, and they have agreed. The Virgin editor is currently hardblocked and unable to edit from home until February; I have requested that this gentleman does not vandalise Wiki from any location. Overall, I am aware of five indivduals involved in the sock: myself and two other individuals in my home, and the Virgin editor and another individual in his home. As I explained to Sandstein, I will be moving to a new home by myself in January and likely subscribing to Sky broadband... I'm not sure how "checkuser" works, but I assume that admins will be able to verify my new status. I have at times shown appalling attitude and been rude to admins and other users, but I have made many good edits and created mutiple articles during my Wiki career, including two from my most recent account, mentioned above by Sandstein (one has been erased due to block evasion). I am clearly not simply a career vandal. As I mentioned to Sandstein earlier, there's no 100% tangible proof that I have changed my ways: people will have to take me at my word. After a few months of constructive editing, all fears will be assuaged. If a murderer can be freed from prison and given the opportunity to build a constructive life in society, I believe that a remorseful vandal (who has, all the while, created multiple articles and contributed many good edits), should be forgiven and allowed to contribute to Wiki. 212.139.53.219 (talk) 14:54, 27 November 2010 (UTC)""

I think should provide all we need here. --jpgordon 15:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. Sorry, this (NSFW) profane, child-like sign off from his good hand account a few days ago which professes multiple existing socks and continued vandalism, convinces me that there's little change here. His dodgy, social-engineering answers to your questions do little to build trust. I can also see that he's used this account to hide past socks (here). I'm usually pretty open to WP:OFFER, but this isn't that. Kuru (talk) 15:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

No way. I stopped reading after the second sentence of the unblock request. Elockid 15:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. Just reading the link that Kuru provided and the unblock request on the anon made me understand that TAWT and Jplarkin will still remain unconstructive editors when a block is lifted. 'list of many fallen soldiers', so inappropriate use of term, like did this guy go into real battle or something? --Eaglestorm (talk) 15:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. We'll end it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TAWT666 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

(TAWT666 indef blocked. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC))

Thanks for pointing out that unblock request, Jpgordon and Kuru. I agree that this makes any unban highly inadvisable. It may be of interest to know that the IP editor has claimed on my talk page that another person made that edit with the Jplarkin account, but even if that is true, they are still sharing or unable to secure their account, and should remain blocked for this reason.  Sandstein  16:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Strong oppose – his last sock after Jplarkin was blocked: here. –MuZemike 16:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• We're being trolled. This is surely not a serious request. WP:RBI. Guy (Help!) 16:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• Ummm, no, per Guy. The entire thing sounded fishy from the start to me. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)