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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. 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Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Captain Occam

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Captain Occam

User requesting enforcement

Mathsci (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Captain Occam topic-banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

This user is discussing matters concerned with

1. his views of the content and quality of articles covered by his topic ban
2. how other users should manage imposing restrictions on others editing the articles covered by his topic ban
3. the close of WP:ARBR&I and his battleground attempts to have sanctions applied to other users

Whether or not his editing history prior to his topic ban is being discussed, he should not intervene or attempt to exercise influence in any way whatsoever. This is a violation of his topic ban.

Recent harassment-only accounts

There is also a concern that two recently created accounts are acting as proxies for Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, during their topic bans. The evidence of meatpuppetry so far is purely circumstantial. Like Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, both users are targeting WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs). Both are following his edits and and lobbying for editing restrictions. For recently arrived wikipedians, this does not seem quite normal.

• SightWatcher (talk · contribs) has misquoted and misrepresented the findings of the arbitration case on multiple occasions, in the same way as Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin. He has added identical material to Race and health that was previously proposed unsuccessfully by Ferahgo the Assassin for Race (classification of humans). He has lobbied on her behalf. Here in his user space is a draft RfC/U, as suggested by Captain Occam. The statements in this draft RfC/U continue to voice the same misunderstandings of the outcome of WP:ARBR&I. For a user to start discussing sanctions against another user within a week of arriving on wikipedia after less than thirty edits is concerning. Like Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, he has been given advice by administrators (Maunus and RegentsPark) which he chosen to ignore. He has, with Captain Occam's advice , started an RfC/U on WeikiBaikeBianji. One of the main topics contained in the RfC/U concerns the removal of spam links on an article High IQ society (an article not connected with WP:ARBR&I). On that article Dirk Beetstra, the WP expert on spam and blacklisting, has been removing link spam in exactly the same way as WeijiBaikeBianji.

• Woodsrock (talk · contribs) has made a series of personal attacks on WeijiBaikeBianji in postings and edit summaries (here is one example ). Apart from the template he created very soon after the creation of his account and its use, his other edits to articles consist entirely of splitting paragraphs or moving images: no content is being added or modified. In a number of cases, probably without realizing it, he has made these arbitrary changes to the ledes of articles which have already been selected as GA and FA (examples include RNA, DNA and evolution). In this cosmetic change to DNA sequencing , the change indicates that Woodsrock does not read the text he is editing (which refers to an image on the left, which he moved to the right without altering the text). Today he made yet another unprompted personal attack on WeikiBaikeBianji, coordinated with the RfC/U.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Block of account for one week or more for Captain Occam; official warnings for SightWatcher and Woodsrock for harassment-only accounts; possible block of Woodsrock for personal attacks.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There are other issues of off-wiki harassment, possibly connected with these incidents, which ArbCom has been informed of. A checkuser has confirmed that the two accounts above are not sockpuppet accounts. I have discussed some of these matters with a member of ArbCom.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Reply to EdJohnston

My topic ban on articles and their talk pages connected with race and intelligence, broadly construed, was by mutual consent (initially voluntary) and lasts until the end of time, unlike the topic bans of Mikemikev, Captain Occam and David.Kane. It does not involve process pages, but, as far as I am concerned, does involve not discussing the subject matter of the dispute or other people's views on it in any way whatsoever. The timing of other users' edits is beyond my control: that includes Ferahgo the Assassin's recent violation of her topic ban; Mikemikev's continued sockpuppetry (including an edit by him that had to be deleted in this request); and also the issues of meatpuppetry and wikihounding mentioned above. In the latter case an arbitrator requested, after I made this request,that information from me be passed on to other members of the committee. Any modification in my topic ban would presumably have to be through an amendment of WP:ARBR&I and be approved by ArbCom. I cannot see any relation with EEML. But just to be safe I will make a public declaration: I have received a phone call from Roger Davies and we did have a long and enjoyable chat about matters totally unconnected with wikipedia. On the other hand that might be a cue for somebody to start WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/French connection. Mathsci (talk) 06:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Further clarification

I have no connection at all with WeijiBaikeBianji. Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin have continued to cast aspersions that we are somehow collaborating. However, similarly unreasonable assertions to these have been summarily dismissed by arbitrators. Their repeated attempts to have sanctions imposed on WeijiBaikeBianji on previous ArbCom pages were seen as a failure to come to terms with the closure of the ArbCom case. Unlike Captain Occam and his girlfirend, I have no interest in the subject whatsoever. I have made critical but constructive remarks about WeijiBaikeBianji's general method of adding sources to "further reading" to wikipedia articles in his RfC/U following the report below on Ferhago the Assassin. At no stage have I commented on the content of WeijBaikeBianji's editing. Obviously I very strongly defend his right to edit without being wikihounded or harassed. I have been wikihounded myself in unconnected topics: that wikihounding ceased after mediation off-wiki by an arbitrator. I am on a wikibreak at the moment—that means a break from editing articles—since in RL I'm completing a long article on mathematics and was rather burnt out after 1000+ edits on Clavier-Übung III. Mathsci (talk) 07:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional statement concerning request for clarification

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: WP:ARBR&I/scope of topic ban of Mathsci

• I have requested a personal clarification from ArbCom about the nature of my topic ban, which I believe is different from that of other users mentioned, for those administrators unfamilar with the outcome of WP:ARBR&I. In my case there have been no violations of my topic ban and I believe that administrators are ignoring the voluntary nature of my topic ban. Arbitrators themselves have encouraged me to contribute to noticeboards and to correspond with them. In my request for clarification about my topic ban, I have also requested some guidance for administrators. Mathsci (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Move to close

Since Newyorkbrad and Shell Kinney have now commented at the above request for clarification, it is is probably a good idea for administrators to close the discussion here and continue it in the more appropriate place linked above. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

<moving commment> VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:24, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Please move this comment to your own section and take a look at what arbitrators have said.You might also like to review what are called "personal sanctions". Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Active sanctions#Personal sanctions Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Captain Occam

Statement by Captain Occam

This report seems completely frivolous. Mathsci and I were both topic banned from these articles by the same arbitration case, and he and I have both been engaging in the exact same type of discussions about other users’ conduct on these articles. Recent examples of this from Mathsci are , and . More importantly, there was recently a request for clarification about this case in which the arbitrators specifically stated that topic bans from this case do not apply to dispute resolution about user conduct issues. In that thread, Mathsci actually defended the right of topic banned editors to engage in these discussions! Quoting what Mathsci said there: “I have twice communicated in private when irregularities have occurred connected with WP:ARBR&I. On both occasions the irregularities were not of my making, but I had what I perceived to be useful input to offer in discussions. Misplaced Pages processes are not covered by my voluntary but binding topic ban.”

Now, do the diffs that Mathsci provided of me purportedly violating my topic ban show anything other than what Mathsci has done himself, has defended his right to do, and what the arbitrators have given both of us permission for? The first is me pointing out to Maunus that he had misquoted me; in response Maunus apologized and struck out the part of his comment which was a misquote. The second and third were a follow-up to a discussion between myself and Coren, in which Coren suggested starting an RFC about WeijiBaikeBianji, and also that I bring this suggestion up with the other editors who have been involved in disputes with him. These diffs are from the discussions that I initiated with these editors at an arbitrator’s suggestion. This certainly does not have any resemblance to the behavior for which I was topic banned, which according to my finding of fact was edit warring and false claims of consensus. Mathsci, on the other hand, has been described by ArbCom as engaging in behavior that is “unduly aggressive and combative”, and seems to be displaying the same attitude here and in the earlier diffs of his behavior provided above.

There are three important questions that need to be asked here:

1. In his effort to demonstrate that I am violating my topic ban, why has Mathsci not linked to the discussion between me and Coren in which Coren was suggesting this RFC, and also that I contact other editors about this suggestion? Is it because it does not help his case to show that the second and third diff are from discussions that I was asked to initiate by one of the arbitrators?
2. Why has Mathsci defended his own ability to participate in discussions related to these articles, including posting this arbitration enforcement request, but claims that it is a topic ban violation when other topic banned editors act similarly?
3. How did Mathsci get a checkuser to be run on Sightwatcher and Woodsrock without starting an SPI? Is it acceptable that he apparently has privately contacted an administrator with checkuser permission, and persuaded them off-wiki to run a checkuser on these accounts?

Echoing VsevolodKrolikov’s comments below, when one considers the number of editors who have taken issue with WeijiBaikeBianji’s recent behavior, it should not be such a surprise that this includes a pair of relatively new users. From the links and diffs provided in the RFC/U which was recently started about WeijiBaikeBianji, I can identify at least four other users who feel similarly about WeijiBaikeBianji’s editing. In addition to VsevolodKrolikov himself, there is also Andy Dingley, Victor Chmara and TrevelyanL85A2. All four of these users have been registered for over three years.

I’m reminded again of this principle from the recent Climate Change arbitration case: “An editor who brings forward the same or similar view as a blocked or banned user should not automatically be assumed to be a sockpuppet or meatpuppet in the absence of other evidence.” On these articles, Mathsci and a few other users who share his viewpoint seem to consistently ignore this principle. When a pair of new users are among six users disagreeing with someone whom I’ve also disagreed with in the past, should sockpuppetry or meatuppetry be considered so likely that admins are privately canvassed to run checkuser, and after checkuser fails to find evidence of sockpuppetry, the accusation is brought to AE? --Captain Occam (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Captain Occam

Comment by VsevolodKrolikov

I have been part of these discussions through being caught up in WeijiBaikeBianji's editing campaign against template:human intelligence. I agree that there is something slightly suspicious about the sudden appearance of the two new users and their familiarity with wikipedia. That said, WeijiBaikeBianji is being rather disruptive and it's not only these two who have problems with WBB's continual reverts and slow edit warring, so I don't know how much can be read into their behaviour there. (But certainly Woodsrock has been uncivil.) VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

• comment Oppose move to close cited above by Mathsci. EdJohnston and other admins are still going to clarify the issue of participation in RfCs. Btw, can someone explain what it means for MathSci to have a "binding" topic ban? Isn't that the same in practice as the bans applied to Captain Occam and Ferahgo, only that his consent would reflect better upon him in general? I looked at the discussion and it's not clear to me that there is a material difference. For the record, I'm not happy about any of the topic-banned editors participating in the RfC on WBB. It's too close to having an impact on content and thus it's topic-related. It's dispute resolution (about a user, but clearly relating to the topic) not arbitration enforcement. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by WeijiBaikeBianji

Certainly something very odd is going on here. I have no trouble discussing issues calmly with VsevolodKrolikov, and I expect that discussion to result in further improvements in several articles we both are watching. As Mathsci, the moving editor, notes, some of the edits by the two presumptive meat-puppets don't do anything at all to improve the quality of the encyclopedia. I invite multiple editors to take a look at this, especially editors who are experienced with what are at bottom conduct disputes, and I am happy to learn from any conscientious editor how best to respond to this situation. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

MastCell has correctly noted in his comment as an uninvolved administrator that the issue here is editor conduct, and each account's contributions should be looked at for its overall pattern of building the encyclopedia and adherence to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 04:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply to the latest several posts by EdJohnston I am losing track of the procedural issues here and how they relate to the substantive issues. (And that is worrisome, as I am a lawyer by training, and usually the first thing I do in analyzing any case is make sure of the procedural posture. But I'm not devoting as much time to this case as some disputants are, and as the unfortunate administrators must.) I think there is considerable gaming of the system going on here and distraction from the issue of editor conduct and building an encyclopedia. The newly registered accounts mentioned here are rightly regarded as "harassment accounts." They have very overtly been harassing me and wasting the time of other conscientious editors (e.g. VsevolodKrolikov). Only one of the two accounts has been warned. I call on all the administrators looking on to reexamine the discretionary sanctions already decided by ArbCom and ask yourselves whether the conduct of either presumptive meat puppet is consistent with the editor conduct expected under that decision. Is how they behave how editors are expected to behave on Misplaced Pages? Are they contributing quality content to the encyclopedia? I must get back to looking up actual reliable sources for further article edits. I regret that conscientious editors and administrators have had so much of their time wasted by the editor misconduct that Mathsci has helpfully reported. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

This request appears to be a sort of SPI investigation. What is alleged here is essentially that two accounts who recently opened a RfC/U on WeijiBaikeBianji are meat-puppets of a topic banned user. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, of course this belongs at SPI rather than here. But since Mathsci has apparently already gotten someone to run a checkuser on Sightwatcher and Woodsrock, and determined that they’re unrelated both to me and to everyone else who’s topic banned from these articles, I think he already knows that an SPI would be unlikely to produce the result he wants. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Maunus

I don't see how this can be enough evidence to sanction Occam. I am also suspicious about those two editors, but I could not possibly support any sanctions on Occam untill there is actual positive evidence that he has any part in their sudden arrival. It is not a crime to arrive at wikipedia with prior knowledge of its workings and it is also not a crime to agree with topic banned editors. Nothing we can really do here except keep the argument based on sources and policies going.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by SightWatcher

I originally joined Misplaced Pages wanting to edit film related stuff. I had been browsing race and intelligence-related articles out of curiosity and an interest in learning more, and first got involved when trying to remove something that looked like obvious original research to me. This first R&I edit of mine was reverted by WeijiBaikeBianji, restoring the original research (someone else later removed it). I never would have guessed that making a single edit would suck me in like this, but I thought the articles could benefit if I stuck around. It only took me a few days to notice that a few other editors also had a problem with WeijiBaikeBianji's behavior. Due to how prolific WeijiBaikeBianji's editing was, it was hard for them to deal with everything he was doing. If anyone else has experienced something similar here, they might understand how easy it is to get pulled into disputes like this.

As part of trying to rapidly familiarize myself with this topic, I've read through much of the arbitration process and findings. I find it pretty weird that one of the topic banned editors has made this thread. Mathsci, who WeijiBaikeBianji defended as "a thorough and conscientious editor" despite this user's apparent penchant for edit warring and personal attacks pointed out by arbcom in his finding of fact. Mathsci posted this thread less than three hours after I started the RFC/U about WeijiBaikeBianji. After this thread was posted, WeijiBaikeBianji immediately linked to it from the RFC/U, claiming that it "shows that this request for comment very likely is a continuation of an edit war by a topic-banned editor that began before I became a wikipedian." Mathsci's intimate familiarity with my editing history in an area he's banned from is also disconcerting to me.

I don't think I need to respond in detail to all of Mathsci's accusations- seems there's no point. All you have to do is click on the diffs that have been presented in this thread to see that reality doesn't support his claims. For example, read the thread in Coren's talk to see that the suggestion to start the RFC/U originally came from Coren, not from Occam. Mathsci certainly knows this, because he participated in the discussion where Coren suggested it. Interestingly, this deliberate misrepresentation seems similar to some stuff I've read about through arbitration that Mathsci was doing- Ludwigs2 provided a good example here of how he tends to do this (check out the "Fake Mathsci-style criticism of itsmeJudith for example purposes only). This thread smacks of being a very similar sort of thing...

But anyway, whether other editors or myself have done anything wrong here does not really seem to be the point of this thread. The point is that as long as this thread exists, it can be used to undermine the legitimacy of my RFC/U about WeijiBaikeBianji. In his comment on the RRFC/U that I quoted, WeijiBaikeBianji is milking this thread for all it's worth. So what I see is a very suspicious link between this, the timing of this thread in response to my RFC/U, WeijiBaikeBianji’s eagerness to defend Mathsci, and Mathsci's intimate familiarity with my disputes with WeijiBaikeBianji on these articles. What this looks like to me is WeijiBaikeBianji collaborating with a topic-banned editor to try to prevent his questionable editing behavior from being examined. I hope that admins can recognize this and close this pointless thread as soon as possible.-SightWatcher (talk) 22:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

What you’re describing about how you got “pulled into” this dispute sounds pretty similar to what caused Mikemikev and Ludwigs2 to become involved in the race and intelligence article in December 2009. What was happening at that point is that User:T34CH tried to get rid of the race and intelligence article entirely, by turning it into a disambiguation page and dividing up all of its content between other articles. Mikemikev and Ludwigs2 had not been involved in the article before this, and Mikemikev had barely been active at Misplaced Pages before this at all. But what T34CH was doing attracted their attention, and once their attention was attracted both of them remained involved in the article for several months after that.

The general principle here is that when someone tries to make highly visible and contentious changes to several articles at once, it’s always going to attract editors who disagree with those changes, who might not otherwise have gotten involved in the dispute. Acting in a way that causes this outcome is bit of a wild card, because there’s no way to predict ahead of time what the editors whose attention it attracts are going to be like. Most people seem to agree that Mikemikev’s eventual incivility on these articles was disruptive. Ludwigs2 was also pretty strongly opinionated, but I don’t think anyone (except possibly Mathsci) regards him as having been an overall detriment to the articles, and he wasn’t sanctioned in the arbitration case. I would hope that Woodsrock and Sightwatcher are going to turn out to be more similar to Ludwigs2 than to Mikemikev, but the possibility of attracting editors similar to Mikemikev is a risk that WeijiBaikeBianji is taking by acting similarly to how T34CH did.

Either way, the most important point is that even if Mikemikev ended up being disruptive, he and Ludwigs2 clearly weren’t sockpuppet or meatpuppets of another user or users. So now that history is repeating itself, and a situation similar to what attracted them to these articles has now attracted Woodsrock and Sightwatcher, their having shown up in this situation is not a good reason to assume sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry about them either. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:01, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

• ArbCom made the checkuser enquiry itself because some members suspected sockpuppetry. The identity of suspected meatpuppets can be passed directly to members of ArbCom if there is any evidence.
• Captain Occam has invited Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to join this discussion. He wrote the following:

Don’t worry, nobody’s accusing you of having done anything wrong. This thread is mostly just more accusations of wrongdoing from Mathsci against the editors that he disagrees with, this time being directed at me as well as two fairly new editors. But one of the new people has apparently read several of the arbitration pages, and is taking some of the advice that you offered about Mathsci there to heart.

There is something slightly wrong here. Mathsci (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Care to elaborate? I figure that if we’re going to be talking about Ludwigs2 in this thread, he ought to know about it.

I hope you’re not going to claim that contacting Ludwig was “canvassing”. It’s never canvassing to contact a single user to tell them they’re being discussed somewhere. Canvassing is also contacting a selected group of users to try and influence the outcome of a discussion, but since Ludwig isn’t an admin, he can’t influence the outcome of this thread anyway. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved Ludwigs2

I only have two comments with respect to this issue:

1. I don't really see what it is that Mathsci is complaining about. I suspect this is just more of the same pugnacious behavior that he exhibited during the R&I dispute and arbitration.
2. If Mathsci is returning to the behavior that he displayed before, then he himself is clearly in violation of the spirit of the arbitration, if not the letter of it. I would suggest that that be addressed here as well, assuming anything needs to be addressed at all.

I am on a short work-related break, and probably will not participate in this further unless my name is mentioned in some way that I feel calls for a response. --Ludwigs2 17:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment The problem of meatpuppetry is a real one and I believe in this case has been and is being taken seriously by ArbCom. Meatpuppetry is harder to investigate or prove than sockpuppetry. It has necessarily to take place off-wiki and that is the case here.

(clears throat, about to say something important) I regret Ludwigs2's absence from wikipedia in the last 8 days. His unique and forthright style, often irritating, was actually extremely helpful on Communist terrorism and he was a vital part of the chemistry there. If he could look at the Collect case above, I think he could do a lot of good by commenting there and watching over what happens to the article if and when it is unlocked. Peace, Ludwigs2. Mathsci (talk) 18:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci: are you suggesting that all 15000+ of my edits are meatpuppetry, or that I (somehow) suddenly lose all free will and independent thought with respect to Occam? He must be one damned charismatic guy...

I tend to see Occam's message as a proper notification that I was mentioned on an administrative page (something which both SightWatcher here and Collect above neglected to do). I can see how you might see it as a mild form of canvassing (all things considered), but even you have to admit that's a stretch, and I would have hoped that you would AGF on it. Instead, you leapt all the way past common sense to veiled accusations of meatpuppetry, and that is in appallingly bad taste.

So fine, whatever: you indulged in hyperbole, I asked you not to, and I will AGF that the matter is closed. I have nothing more to say in response to this, so if you'd like a last comment, feel free. I'll take a look at the above 'collect' issue (which I just learned about this moment) later this evening. --Ludwigs2 20:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

?? The meatpuppetry case concerns those mentioned in the request (see the section above). Please take a look, if you haven't already done so. There's no reference to you there, unless it's hidden in some kind of subliminal bible code. But getting back to serious matters, it would be extremely helpful if you showed up at communist terrorism. You would be a voice of reason. Mathsci (talk) 20:21, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Response to EdJohnston

I should remind everyone that there has already been a request for clarification about the R&I case, in which arbitrators expressed the view that topic bans from this case do not apply to dispute resolution about editor conduct. However, I think it’s still reasonable for there to be some concern about how closely Mathsci is following all of the disputes over these articles, his and WeijiBaikeBianji’s seeming cooperation to defend one another, and whether he has been engaging in the same battleground attitude which was one of the things he was sanctioned for in the case. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

I think that admins now have enough information to make an effective response to the string of new issues that have arisen here concerning Race and Intelligence. From reading enforcement requests of the last two months I single out these comments as being especially informative. Both are from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#WeijiBaikeBianji:

Quoted comment by Maunus

I don't think that this petition should be considered, especially not since the editor making it is not directly affected by WeijiBaikeBianji's behaviour as she currently is not allowed to edit in the area. If editors that actually are interacting with WeijiBaikeBianji agree with Ferahgo's judgement then they can and should start an RfC or arbitrartion enforcement case. Ferahgo doesn't need to act as protector of other editors' interests in the area that she is no longer editing - I am sure everyone there is capable of taking steps to resolve their own disputes with out help from previous participants.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Quoted comment by Shell Kinney

I'm afraid you've grossly misunderstood the Arbitration ruling; it was a matter of conduct, not content... If you'll re-read my comment where I indicated that, as far as I know, editors aren't prohibited from making reports while topic banned, I also strongly suggested that you stop monitoring the topic area and work productively elsewhere. It's disappointing that you only heeded part of my comment. About Mathsci, I find it hard to believe that you think the advice you were given by myself and NuclearWarfare somehow only applies to you. He made some very good points about your participation here - if you find that incivil and a "battleground attitude", I'd have to suggest again that you need to spend some time understanding how really Misplaced Pages works rather than continuing with the rather skewed interpretation you've learned from Captain Occam. Shell babelfish 23:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• In the section below, 'Result concerning Captain Occam', I've proposed how this case should be closed by admins. EdJohnston (talk) 21:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Captain Occam

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I've formally warned Woodsrock (talk · contribs) of the race & intelligence discretionary sanctions, as even a cursory glance through his contributions reveals numerous causes for concern. No comment at this point on the other aspects of this request. MastCell  18:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

• This report was archived by the bot prior to receiving a formal close here. I have brought it back for one more look by the admins. The issue to be addressed seems to be: does conduct by Captain Occam and Mathsci infringe their topic bans from the area of race and intelligence? There have recently been some cases closed here at AE where editors from WP:EEML were told not to engage in any dispute resolution involving the topic from which they were banned unless they were personally named and needed to defend themselves. We also see a recent case (Climate Change) where Arbcom intended the topic bans to be observed very strictly, so that the named editors could not even hint to others as to what changes they would support in articles covered by the topic ban. The admins at AE have some discretion as to how bans should be interpreted, and it may be that the exact ban language needs to be studied. In my opinion the case may be closed without blocks if (a) the definition of these bans is made clear, (b) there is some confidence that the affected editors will follow them. EdJohnston (talk) 05:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• I propose that the admins at AE should take action to deal with the string of new issues and new AE filings concerning Race and Intelligence. I've added a new section, #Statement by EdJohnston, to present quotes from an earlier AE from a month ago, including a comment by an Arbitrator. I recommend that we instruct the recipients of topic bans under WP:ARBR&I that they should not comment on any matters concerning Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including talk pages. This includes participating in any RFC/U, including the one at WP:Requests for comment/WeijiBaikeBianji. They should not engage in any dispute resolution that is primarily intended to influence content regarding Race and Intelligence, and is not 'legitimate and necessary dispute resolution' concerning their own actions. The misbehavior of other editors in the area of R&I should not be their concern until their topic bans are lifted. The authority that admins have to do this comes from two sources:

1. The traditional power of AE to interpret the scope of topic bans
2. Discretionary sanctions, which are authorized by WP:ARBR&I

If any of the named editors (those already topic-banned by Arbcom, plus Ferahgo who was topic banned here at AE) argues against AE's ability to make this additional request, then the admins at this board may consider imposing new and more specific topic bans under the discretionary sanctions. Editors with existing topic bans that are affected by this new interpretation are: David.Kane (talk · contribs), Captain Occam (talk · contribs), Mikemikev (talk · contribs), Mathsci (talk · contribs) and Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs). EdJohnston (talk) 21:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Note WP:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: WP:ARBR&I/scope of topic ban of Mathsci. Editors have been adding statements there that may shed light on what ought to be done here. I recommend delaying the close of this AE a couple more days. EdJohnston (talk) 15:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Mathsci and Vsevolod

See . The behaviors that I think have caused the most concern recently are those of Captain Occam and Ferahgo. If AE chooses to make the topic bans include dispute resolution as I've suggested, I think we should modify all the topic bans which are still technically in effect. If Arbcom chooses to lift Mathsci's topic ban, then our added restriction would go away as well. EdJohnston (talk) 05:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that we have the authority to expand the topic ban under the ARBR&I discretionary sanctions provision, and I think we probably should do so, from what I've seen here. Note that nothing would prevent them from participating in necessary and appropriate dispute resolution processes involving themselves (such as an RFC/U against themselves), but there's no compelling reason for them to involve themselves in other discussions related to this topic. The latest clarification request may have carved out AE requests as a special case, but I see no justification to expand that exception further. T. Canens (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ferahgo the Assassin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

An admin chose to reduce the block duration to 24 hours. Other admins accepted that result, with various cautions. All the admins agreed that a sanction was appropriate. EdJohnston (talk) 19:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

72 hour block, imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Ferahgo_the_Assassin, logged at Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction

MastCell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Courcelles 08:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

As far as I knew, this article was not covered by my topic ban. I actually did not notice that this article discussed race and intelligence until after Mathsci pointed this out in the AE thread - if you look at the diff of my initial statement there, I said I thought the article did not mention intelligence at all. After Mathsci mentioned this I updated my comment, stating in my edit summary that I hadn't previously noticed the article's single sentence which referred to this. As is evident from my contribs, I regularly edit paleontology articles, and I noticed the edit which I reverted because most articles about well-known paleontologists are on my watchlist. I don't think that a single sentence discussing race and intelligence should necessarily make this a "race and intelligence related article" which I'm therefore not allowed to edit. And if it does, then this was an honest mistake on my part, because I didn't notice this sentence in the article until after Mathsci pointed it out.

If I had been warned prior to this block that the article was covered by my topic ban, I would not have made another attempt to edit it (I made a second edit to the article while the AE thread was open, but at that point no one other than Mathsci was expressing an opinion that my topic ban covered this article). Since I have had no prior blocks for any reason, and it was not completely clear that my topic ban covered this article, the lack of a warning seems unusual. I'm also concerned by the lack of discussion among admins prior to the block. The AE thread was open for less than three hours before I was blocked, and MastCell blocked me before any other uninvolved admins had commented there. Of the other editors commenting in that thread, no one else felt that a block was an appropriate result. I don't think it's appropriate that on my first offense, I should be blocked for 72 hours with no warning and no discussion among uninvolved admins.

I think that the appropriate response in this case is a warning, and I would like my block to be replaced with that. If I am unblocked and warned that the Henry Fairfield Osborn article is covered by my topic ban, I will not attempt to edit it again as long as I remain banned from race and intelligence articles.

Statement by MastCell

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among involved and uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ferahgo the Assassin

Comment by VsevolodKrolikov It was disappointing for the dispute with user:WeijiBaikeBianji to be seen as a vendetta by two editors that aggravated the supposed offence. It's not a matter of two editors, as the certified RFC regarding that user shows; other editors find his editing odd and at times tendentious. WBB has been adding various links as "further reading" to a number of articles (not just this book) which don't appear to be that necessary (and I'm not sure he's read them, so I don't think it's editorial recommendations as covered in WP:FURTHER); it seems to be a way of suggesting sources to other editors to integrate into the text (rather than doing it himself or using the talkpage). I don't think Ferahgo reverting WBB specifically should be seen as aggravating the situation. Anyone might have reverted that addition as not useful (after all, it's not a book dedicated solely or mostly to the article topic, and indeed heavily implies POV regarding what the topic is most notable before). I also think the closing was really far too swift, and it should be noted that MathSci does seem to be getting involved in disputes in this topic far too much for someone banned from it.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Mathsci In her two submissions to WP:AE, Ferahgo the Assassin wrote first that she was "removing material related to race and intelligence from the article", and then that she was "removing material that made the article too focused on race and intelligence". The edit to which she which she refers is the addition of one book, unrelated to race and intelligence as far as I am aware, with the edit summary "added further reading section and citation to book". Her unfortunate choice of words in both edits indicates unambiguously that in her perception she was removing content explicitly related to the subject of her topic ban. In addition to her own perceptions, the article explicitly mentions the topic of racial differences in intelligence.

The two diffs above also cast aspersions on other editors which Ferahgo the Assassin has continued to make since the imposition of the topic ban of her boyfriend Captain Occam in August. On this occasion her wording suggests that she was following the edits of another editor in what she perceived to be the subject of her topic ban: she has placed herself in a long-standing, acrimonious but wholly one-sided dispute with this editor. Ferahgo the Assassin should take responsibility for her own actions, whatever her personal conspiracy theories might happen to be.

My topic ban was by mutual consent, unlike those of others sanctioned by WP:ARBR&I. It covers editing articles on this topic or their talk pages, broadly construed, but not process pages. I have no interest in how articles in the area of the topic ban are edited. I have, however, been monitoring violations of topic bans (for example the multiple antisemitic sockpuppets of Mikemikev (talk · contribs): Juden Raus, Suarneduj, RLShinyblingstone, Oo Yun, etc). I removed this edit by Mikemikev from this page. Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, possibly aided now by third parties, have continually tried to push the limits of their topic bans. In this latest instance Ferahgo the Assassin has made namespace edits directly related to her topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 09:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Jayen466: I would have agreed that the sanction was a poor decision if the book had been a clearly inappropriate, coatracky addition to the Further reading section of Osborn's biography. If the book had had two or three passing mentions of Osborn, then Ferahgo should have been quite entitled to remove it, her topic ban on race and intelligence notwithstanding. However, looking at the book in google books, it does discuss Osborn, incl. Osborn's support for Grant's views on the superiority of the "Nordic" race, in detail. Osborn's name occurs on 100 pages of the book. In my view, this makes it an appropriate addition to the Further reading section, making Ferahgo's removal not justifiable on the grounds of WP:Undue, and bringing it within the scope of the topic ban. As such, I believe MastCell's block was justified. One might argue that 72 hours was long for what appears to be a first-time offence of the topic ban, but I agree with MastCell that the topic ban was violated. --JN466 11:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment about Jayen466's comments on the book I have expressed no opinion here on appropriate sanctions, if any. Jayen466 correctly analyzes here and below why the book is an appropriate further reading reference for the article most in dispute here, and would serve well soon as a reference in a footnote attached to revised article text. I had the book at hand yesterday, when it was due at my local public library, and I will have it in hand again by Monday, when I circulate it from the academic library at my workplace. The book is meticulously researched and professionally edited and points to many useful sources for wikipedians to use to edit other articles. As I selected the Misplaced Pages articles to which to add further reading references to that book, I looked at the book's index, following selected page references to read them in context, and looked for Misplaced Pages articles that didn't already cite the book (per WP:FURTHERREADING) and that appeared to need more sources added. I didn't add the book to many articles about persons or organizations that were mentioned off-hand in the book, but I tried, proceeding alphabetically, to add the book to articles for which other editors may be able to use the book for editing article text, and in any case for which readers of Misplaced Pages could gain additional information about article topics if they refer to the book. That's all. I'll be doing more of that with more books on more articles, often timed according to when I need to accelerate reading a book before I return it to a local library. It would be a funny view of core Misplaced Pages policy if adding reliable sources to articles becomes regarded as disfavored editing behavior. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: Ferahgo appears to be correct in stating that the block was not preceded by any warning, as required by Misplaced Pages:AC/DS#Warnings:

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

Accordingly, the correct thing to do would be to lift the block, and convert it into a warning. --JN466 12:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• That is not correct. Ferahgo the Assassin received an official warning when NuclearWarfare imposed her topic ban on October 7. No further warning is required. The topic ban was logged at Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions. Her edit, whatever justification other users might give for its possible validity, violates that topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 14:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Being advised of a topic ban is not the same as a warning for problematic editing. On the other hand, Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Enforcement_of_topic-bans_by_block does state that violations of a topic ban may result in a block, without prior warning. I suppose once a topic ban has been made, we are no longer in the realm of discretionary sanctions, and my argument above that a warning should have been given first looks like it was wrong. I agree that the topic ban was violated. --JN466 14:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Again completely incorrect. As MastCell and others have written, this is black and white—there are no "ifs" and "buts". Since Jayen466 is himself under an indefinite topic ban per WP:ARBSCI, I'm surprised that he is so unclear about these matters. Mathsci (talk) 03:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
      • What is completely incorrect? I thought I had just agreed with you that the topic ban was violated, and that according to the arbitration remedy no prior warning was required. --JN466 05:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Thanks for clarifying that and apologies for any misunderstanding. Mathsci (talk) 05:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
          • That's alright, thanks. --JN466 07:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment about the book. Counting google hits in a book is like counting google hits on a web search. You can't just look at the headline number. I've had a look through the book as available on google scholar. It really isn't about Osborn. Osborn was a close associate of Madison Grant, and worked with him on a eugenicist project, so it's not surprising that he gets quite a few mentions. However, in this book he appears as a supporting actor, with his own life barely examined, except where it crosses paths with Grant, and at least half the time even when the subject turns to Eugenics (a good deal of the search results come out of Osborn's tenure as head of the American Natural history museum), many of those results are his name in a list of others who were also eugenicists. There is a patch of mentions (on average once every eight pages) in the last half of the book when it really deals with eugenics, but nothing solid. There is practically no mention of Osborn's view of race and intelligence, and certainly no analysis of it. There's not even a chapter dedicated to him. It's true that WP:FURTHER is simply too vague about what should go into further reading. This book's citation as further reading is rather like citing Queen Victoria's biography as further reading on the life of William Gladstone. You might glean something, but really not a great deal compared to other works, and I would see deletion as entirely reasonable. (In trying to fathom WeijiBaikeBianji's methods, to me it looks like he's found this book on the internet, and decided to recommend it as a source to several pages by adding it to further reading.) "Further reading" should not be any book somehow connected with the subject.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I did look at the book pages mentioning both Osborn and race, e.g. , , , etc. and respectfully disagree with the notion that Osborn is but a minor figure in the book -- he is not. Note . --JN466 14:34, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say he was minor (I used "supporting" quite deliberately), rather that the book really isn't about him, at least not enough to merit inclusion as "further reading". Yes, the book has a picture of him, and the picture subtitle refers to his work as head of the natural history museum, not as a eugenicist (that came later). What is your understanding of the criteria for "Further Reading"? Mine is that it is most like the rather better developed criteria for external links (as reflected in discussions) - which this book would fail for lack of substance and possible coatracking. The book is really no more than a life of Madison Grant, even though its title suggests more than that. In any case, I think it's a struggle to see this as a clear-cut violation of a topic ban. Bans and blocks are meant to be preventive, not punitive, and we have a clear promise to avoid this kind of thing again, with an unforced admission of misunderstanding the full nature of the article topic in question. I would recommend WP:ROPE here. If Ferahgo is on the make, then harsh sanctions next time.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess you'd argue that the book would fail WP:ELNO 13 if it were an external link. That's something one could debate, though personally I think the book contains enough material about Osborn to add value for the reader. I'm not unsympathetic to the view that a warning, or a shorter block, might have been enough here. --JN466 15:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Ferahgo has asked for a warning. I would take this as an act of good faith - that she accepts the community would have every right to take stronger action in such circumstances now the situation has been made clearer. On a side issue, someone really needs to look at WP:FURTHER. I looked at it myself because of the books added by WBB to creativity. They're both on topic, but very new (i.e. I suspect unread by the person adding, given the apparent ignorance their previous edits on the topic showed if those were good faith edits) and in one case a particularly novel angle that is explicitly going into new territory on the subject.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment from Professor marginalia I have no opinion about whether the block might be lifted and a warning issued instead. But Ferahgo the Assassin's revert of WeijiBaikeBianji's edit was her very first edit to the Henry Fairfield Osborn article. It is more likely that she is continuing to monitor WeijiBaikeBianji's edits than it is he was deliberately baiting her to violate her topic ban when adding the "further reference" to two dozen articles she's never even edited. Henry Fairfield Osborn was one of the two chief architects and promoters of the American Eugenics Society-the other was his nephew. Eugenics and the superiority of European genes, including intellectual genes, was a significant aspect of his life's work. It was largely due to his influence and esteem in the scientific community that eugenics and biological superiority was "legitimized" in the early 20th century as science. So I think more clear eyed research of topics and less "paranoia" and "palace intrigue" would go a long way in sorting out legitimate editorial differences of opinion in the articles. And there would be a whole lot less disruption if editors would apply simple common sense to comply with existing sanctions rather than constantly pettifogging over their fine print for legal loopholes. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Professor marginalia correctly sums up the rationale for the edit. He also points to what should be done to ensure a more productive editing environment on many articles. I of course have no access at all to the watchlist of any editor. I am sorry that some editors are offended by efforts to add reliable sources to articles, but that is Misplaced Pages policy, so we all have to live with what the best sources say as we build an encyclopedia.

-- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a nice misrepresentation. No one is objecting to the addition of reliable sources to the main body of the text - indeed, it would be great if you did that rather than litter article pages with sourcing suggestions for other editors (rather than use the talkpages). Whatever Further Reading is for, it is not meant as a dumping ground for unread sources.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Another editor has restored the text to the "further reading" section. The issue here is whether or not Ferahgo the Assassin has violated her topic ban, and the admins who evaluated the case concluded she had. If there are other issues with WeijiBaikeBianji's editing in race and intelligence related topics, any changes to them must be left handled to editors who aren't currently topic banned. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• comment I endorse HJ Mitchell's shortening of the block.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:38, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment on guidelines. WP:FURTHER was recently modified (although not as a result of this incident but because of a dispute at WP:SCICITE) to recommend annotating the further reading list in confusing cases. This incident might have been a good opportunity to put that in practice. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Ferahgo the Assassin

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Added to AE page Courcelles 08:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• My reading of the above discussion is that the block was just and there was a violation of the topic ban, however, 72 hours may have been a little harsh for a first violation (and first entry in the editor's block log). Accordingly, I have reduced the block duration to 24 hours from the time the original block was imposed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell, in the above discussion, do you see a clear consensus to reduce the block duration? PhilKnight (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I was about to respond above at length, but I'll just do so here briefly. Long story short, I recognize that block length is a gray area. I don't have any objection to HJ Mitchell's reduction to 24 hours, so long as we're all agreed that this was a clear violation of the topic ban. MastCell  21:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Unacceptable. Now, MastCell says that he doesn't have a problem with it, so I will not be seeking comment by the Arbitration Committee. HJ Mitchell, take care to note that AE blocks are not to be modified without clear community consensus. You cannot just arbitrarily reduce block length because you feel it is inappropriate. NW (Talk) 23:03, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It's cool. The topic-ban violation was black-and-white, but block length is a gray area, so I don't feel especially dogmatic about 72 hours. MastCell  23:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

On one hand, HJM - please keep in mind that AE sanctions are applied only in topic areas historically subject to a great deal of disruption, and are intentionally held to a different standard than our other actions because the community wants the disruption to stop so everyone can get back to producing an encyclopedia. I think that you should have waited for this discussion before acting. On another hand, until I saw this section I had decided to recommend that the block be lifted (not reversed), as I think that FTA probably gets it a little better now. On the gripping hand - motion to close this thread as resolved satisfactorily enough? - 2/0 (cont.) 04:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with much of what 2over0 has said, and in particular, we can close this thread now. PhilKnight (talk) 15:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Shuki

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

See the closing statement by T. Canens at the bottom of this report. Participants are reminded of the consensus wording found by LHvU. Shuki is topic banned from I-P for six months. Nableezy and a set of three others are interaction-banned. EdJohnston (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement

Nableezy 17:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. See below for explanation
2. Same

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Notified of case

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Indefinite ban from editing material on Israeli settlements and international law
or
Topic ban on all articles about Israeli settlements

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

A very long discussion took place at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues about whether and how to incorporate the well-sourced fact that Israeli settlements are considered illegal under international law. Shuki was a part of this discussion and so is obviously aware of it. An uninvolved admin, LessHeard vanU, closed the discussion saying that a specific wording has consensus to be included and further has consensus to be included in the lead of developed articles on settlements. LHvU later clarified the point (here) emphasizing that in articles where the illegality of these settlements is expanded on in the body there is consensus for it to be included in the lead of the articles. I added the line to 3 articles a few days ago (, , ). The line was, unsurprisingly, removed by 3 editors who argued against its inclusion in the very discussion closed by the uninvolved admin with a note that there is consensus for its inclusion (, , ). There was some confusion about the close, so a request was made to the admin to clarify (that clarification is linked above). After LHvU clarified that in these articles the wording under discussion has consensus to be included in the lead of the articles, I re-added the line to 2 articles (, ) with a note on the talk page saying why and referencing the centralized discussion (, ). Shuki then removes the edits (, ) claiming, in his single comment to the talk page explaining his reverts, that there is "no consensus" (). This despite the clarification from the uninvolved admin that there is specific consensus for including that line in the lead of such articles.

The close from the admin included the following:

It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct.

Shuki is very clearly one of those editors who holds "the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted" and further he "attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary". This request is meant to see if this "disruptive conduct" will be allowed to continue unabated.

I have no doubt that as with most AE threads I am involved in we will see a large number of those who support Shuki or simply dislike me making rambling comments that are of little relevance to the issue. I hope they will be given the consideration they deserve and be ignored.

Shuki claims, in their response, that the admin did not "close" the discussion and that there was no finding for consensus for placement. In the clarification linked above LHvU wrote the following (emphasis in original):

I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles

I do not see how an editor can in good faith claim that there was no finding for consensus for placement in the lead or for specific wording when the plain English quoted here shows that there is for both. nableezy - 18:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

As I am sure was the intent, a number of users have made a simple request into something that I doubt many sane admins would like to deal with. I beg an admin to please disregard the noise by Jaakobou and Jiujitsuguy and actually look at what happened here. An uninvolved admin says there is consensus for this material to be in the lead of these articles. If a few users want to argue over the semantic differences between "Like other Israeli settlements in the (West Bank/East Jerusalem/Golan Heights), X is regarded as illegal under international law, though the Israeli government disputes this" and "Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, X is considered illegal under international law, though Israeli disputes this" thats fine, but it is inane argument to make for removing the wording. If Shuki or Jaakobou would rather use the former sentence they could have replaced it and there would be no issue here. Instead Shuki removed the lines, claiming there is "no consensus" period. The question here is whether or not a block of users can ignore what consensus is and filibuster any attempt to add material that has consensus. No amount of pedantry can escape that Shuki did not simply modify the phrasing but instead completely removed it. My question is whether or not this will "be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct." Can these users simply say NO NO NO and remove any material they do not like, or is there some penalty for such behavior? nableezy - 07:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the proposed interaction bans, I think they are unnecessary. Cla68 is right, I cant dispute that, but there is a cause and effect here. The more nonsense that I deal with, the more of an asshole I become. I admit I havent really thought about how new people would react to seeing some of the discussions that the regulars have, but that is partially due to the fact that most of the "new" names we see are just old faces with new names. But Cla68 is right, and I will make an honest effort to be more collegial. I dont know how an interaction ban would work, we all edit the same articles. Would it be a race to see who gets to an article first and any editor who arrives later would be violating the ban? The workings of such a ban are impractical, and I think the issue can be satisfactorily dealt with by blocks and bans for future issues with personal attacks or incivility. Though I do think that restricting editors from making comments in AE requests that do not concern them is a marvelous idea. nableezy - 21:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Curious to know where Cla68 came from out of nowhere, but even more your sudden attempt at tobah. Gatoclass thinks I have battleground mentality but ignores that it takes two to tango, including your 24hour+20minute revert on Maale Adumim. Your provocative use of AE is anti-'collegial', so drop that misleading attitude, people see through it easily. --Shuki (talk) 21:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

He inappropriately reverted to Nableezy's version at Ariel. I can only assume he came here because he was miffed that I changed it and notified him of the error. I could be wrong about that and he does bring up a point. Some of the back and forth between editors is heated and that is a problem. I don't think my comment was nearly as bad as he makes it out to be but overall I agree that we need to follow the decorum bit of the arbitration decision closer.Cptnono (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I dont know what "tobah" is supposed to mean. My use of AE is meant to stop editors from engaging in disruptive editing. Yes, I reverted at Ma'ale Adumim. However, unlike you, I have consensus for my revert. My last comment was sincere, I will make a greater effort to be collegial. That will be much easier if editors who disruptively edit against consensus and without regard for the policies of this website are not allowed to continue doing so. nableezy - 21:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

The principle of this AE is that Nableezy is making false accusations and misrepresenting my opinion that he assumes even though I have never claimed what he is accusing me. I certainly do not deny that there was an effort to build consensus and did take part, but I do question that there was in fact consensus and the admin did not in fact close that but opening it up for more discussion. There was also no consensus on placement and that was also supposed to be done by consensus at that central location. Nableezy is not just being bold here but unwilling to continue this consensus building for fear that it might unravel as others are exposed to it (if they can manage to follow it) instead ramming it through. He himself admits that he was reverted by three editors, who in fact, did not really take part in that confusing and hard to follow discussion. Nableezy also chose to make these changes on Shabbat when he knows that there will be virtually no opposition. This is a frivolous and false AE.

It is incredible nerve and anti-AGF that he ends this AE attack by preempting the opposition and discrediting of anyone who might come here in support of me (it will take time, Shabbat will only be over on the West Coast in several hours and we cannot assume everyone runs to their PCs to get updated on WP). He even demands that they be ignored, very considerate and showing his intentions to shut up others. --Shuki (talk) 18:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Shuki, are you saying there's a rough consensus for the legality wording to be in the main body of the article, but whether it should be in the lede should be decided on a case-by-case basis? Or are you saying there's no consensus whatsoever? PhilKnight (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The legality wording that had some support is not the WP:SOAP violation text Nableezy was pushing into the lead. There is no consensus for that "like all Israeli settlements" version and Nableezy disingenuously presents his version as the one that was discussed when that is not the case. Jaakobou 00:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

That's not a bad argument but it's not what Shuki is saying. Shuki's contesting the legitimacy of Proposal 2's consensus and seems to accept Nableezy's wording as some derivative of it (there's little material difference although employing the verbatim line makes a hell of a lot more sense, but whatever). If that were the argument then it would have been simple enough to say "This is not the proper wording of Prop 2" in the edit summary/copy paste it in. Sol (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I have brought up Nableezy's repeated insertion of the incorrect wording at the centralized discussion. although I suppose editors might want to discuss it here as well. Cptnono (talk) 01:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The entire tendentious edit that Nableezy proposes, in the context of content, scope, wording and placement are still points of contention and hotly contested. It is clear that he is using (abusing is the more appropriate term) this AE as a means to intimidate, to instill fear and to force his POV, by hook or by crook, on to the reluctant majority.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

An uninvolved admin has said there was consensus for the inclusion of this material in the lead of the articles. No amount of lawyering can escape that and efforts to do so betray, well Ill leave the rest of that sentence untyped. nableezy - 07:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No. You are fabricating words which were not specifically said. No uninvolved admin said there was a consensus or even a "basis" for consensus for pushing the soapbox "Like all Israeli settlements" into the lead. The editors who quickly disagreed here are a reality and it is disruptive to see you ignore this fact. Fabricating a "consensus" to propose a sanction against another editor is a clear example of WP:GAME. Also, repeating that same bullshit argument even though it was rebuffed as a false statement is a form of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT disruption. Jaakobou 10:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, so stop making bullshit arguments. The version the LHvU said there was consensus for is The international community considers Israeli settlements in illegal under international law, though the Israeli government disputes this. If you want to argue that the addition of "Like all Israeli settlements" makes this a "fabrication" you can do that, but it is a manifestly absurd thing to say that verges on being purposefully deceitful. nableezy - 15:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Again you are fabricating new interpretations to what LHvU actually said. (1) There was no agreement for your soapbox text. (2) The version noted by LHvU as a basis for a future consensus is quite different than yours. (3) Six editors disagree with your insertion of soapbox into leads. (4) You are repeating the same bogus argument over and over again to justify bad conduct and gaming. Jaakobou 17:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

What you write is not true and the fact that you continue to write untruths can only mean that you are doing so intentionally. LHvU wrote the following:

I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles.

That is, he found there to be consensus for including the line The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. to the lead of the articles. You are making a pedantic dispute that Shuki did not even raise as the basis for this massive amount of wikilawyering that you have been engaged in. Stop making such purposefully dishonest arguments. nableezy - 17:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Again you are fabricating new interpretations to what LHvU actually said. (1) There was no agreement for your soapbox text. i.e. It just happens to not be the statement that was selected in the discussions -- Sean.hoyland, 17:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC) (2) The version noted by LHvU as a "basis" (why are you ignoring that word in your diff?) for a future consensus is quite different than yours. (3) Six editors disagree with your insertion of soapbox into leads. (4) You are repeating the same bogus argument over and over again to justify bad conduct and gaming. Jaakobou 17:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You are again misrepresenting clear words. I will quote again:

I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles

Why are ignoring that LHvU repeatedly said that there is consensus for "proposal 2" in the lead of the article? Can you really have missed the now 4 times this line has been quoted, or are you just playing dumb? Consensus is not determined by numbers, it is determined by strength of argument and consistency with the policies of this website. Or, again quoting this same admin

onsensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition.

Your purposefully misleading statement not withstanding, this is a simple problem. A set of editors, yourself included, have long attempted to remove any mention of the illegality of these colonies. When an uninvolved admin says there is consensus to include this fact in the lead of the articles, editors from this set have ignored that and disruptively removed it. No amount of wikilawyering changes these indisputable facts. nableezy - 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Phil, NO, there is certainly no final consensus on wording or placement either and Nableezy and SupremeDeliciousness are being ultrabold in inserting it before the final wording has been accepted by consensus . Nableezy is also being uncollegiate in continually discrediting anyone who opposes his POV. Nableezy continues to misrepresent the voices of any editors not in his POV by accusing them of long removing any mention of illegality when in fact the struggle has always been to prevent him from simply applying boilerplate generalization without specific WP:V. I suppose that you and Nableezy actually read what LessHeard wrote and also the conclusion that is certainly not final or decisive and quite open ended. Look at the first comment from Cptnono who mentions this and Cptnono was very much part of wanting to build consensus and also not totally 'on my side'. I suggest you read WP:CONS and especially various lines like Consensus is a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised. You might notice that virtually any opposing voice in this 'consensus building' was merely minimized or ridiculed. The line that is assumed to consensus is exactly the original line that SD and Nableezy were ramming into articles and also does not remain neutral and minimizes Israel opposition to mere wimpy 'but Israel disputes this'. You will notice that the 'consensus' building does not include a wide variety of editors due to heavy layering, and very hard to follow chit chat from editors who were online a lot virtually preventing anyone 'uninvolved' from being able to understand what was going on. You might remember an RfC that Nableezy posted about the term settlement and that was very easy to follow. Phil, I also remind you of your recent 1RR implementation that was done after an orderly and clear survey. This one was a mess and did not build consensus. --Shuki (talk) 00:11, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This is going to be good. The unequal severity of this proposed topic ban, based on two reverts and a 'comment'(?!) above shows me to be the main danger on WP in this area. You can only measure this claim by seeing the Israel-Arab area calm down drastically after I am gone, or not. Ho hum... --Shuki (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki

Comment by Cptnono

The whole reason the centralized discussion was proposed was due to editors (including Nableezy) edit warring and then opening up separate discussions. Seeing the exact same thing happening is disheartening. Yes, the admin did say there was consensus. He did not close it out which I could see leading to some confusion. I do not understand how the admin could see consensus for placement and I am not the only one. Supreme Deliciousness has been just as adamant as Nableezy in getting this line in and he opened up a discussion on placement after the admin's conclusion. I think Supreme Deliciousness should be applauded (didn't expect to hear that did you?) for his restraint over the last couple of days and think Nableezy should have acted similarly. I told you guys we needed to discuss implementation : ( Cptnono (talk) 19:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up: I have said my piece and am going to excuse myself from the remainder of the conversation since it looks like it is going to get out of hand. My closing thoughts on it are that this AE should not be a ruling on if there was consensus or not since that is better left at the centralized discussion (not separate pages, BTW). However, Shuki being confused about the consensus is perfectly valid since multiple editors are.Cptnono (talk) 00:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

@ T. Canens: They are substantially different. I know it looks like little but we went through all of that discussion for a reason. One version states that hands down that it is illegal. The other clarifies and does not take sides. I'm not saying give anyone a pass on this but it needs to be made clear that Nableezy should not have inserted material that did not have consensus.Cptnono (talk) 22:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

@LVHU: Proposal 2 specifically said "1)... Many of these articles can be found at Category:Israeli settlements. This proposal does not detail use in articles that merely discuss settlements." so simply being related is not sufficient per consensus. However, such discussion might be better at the centralized discussion.Cptnono (talk) 00:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

An interaction bad is completely unnecessary. I made the comment "stop going out of your way to cause trouble" and that is sufficient? I did not pile on the accusations here like some editors. I tried to be civil. I started the discussion that is what got us here in the first place. I just got nailed for being rude to editors and have been attempting to make it better. A topic ban won;t be helping that situation especially since I have not had anytime to prove myself. Have there been any comments since the recent AE that I have made in this topic area (I have actually stopped swearing across the project) besides the one mentioned that seemed out of line? The one mentioned isn't even that bad, IMO. He was starting a conflict and that shouldn't even be in dispute. So besides "going out of your way" (which seems a little mean) is there anything else? I even made it clear that Shuki made mistakes here. Should we have an interaction ban? Cptnono (talk) 07:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I have expanded on this at PKs talk page but he does not appear to be swayed. I would appreciate it if my request was looked into before another admin closes this. I have not commented on what I feel is appropriate action for Shuki or Nableezy but me getting lumped into the interaction bans is a big deal to me.Cptnono (talk) 09:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@T. Canens, have you reviewed my comments in question and believe I crossed the line? I was practically begging Nableezy and the other editors involveded to use the centralized discussion. The single comment that might come across mean should not be sufficient. Add I think it is well balanced by perfectly reasonable comments even while others may be being less then polite: one in questionCptnono (talk) 18:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Mkativerata

I consider myself involved in respect of settlement disputes because I participated in an RfC about them once. I think Shuki's actions here have been disruptive. LHvU's close of that discussion - especially after the clarification - was quite clear. Nableezy's insertion of material was consistent with the close. If any further clarification needed to be sought, that could have been done without reverting. But I'm concerned that editors disappointed with the consensus are trying to obfuscate it by claiming it is not clear. That can't be allowed to happen. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't just Shuki who reverted. I also reverted the edit as did user:Brewcrewer. Nableezy is the one here who is acting unilaterally without consensus.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

All that means is I was feeling generous and did not request that you and brew likewise be topic banned for disruptively editing against consensus. nableezy - 23:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The very fact that it was your edits that were being reverted by three different editors means that it was in fact you who was acting in a disruptive manner without consensus. You've been around long enough to know how to play in the sandbox and you are now, quite frankly, operating disruptively by acting without consensus against the majority and by filing repeated AE actions that require lengthy responses to defend against frivolous claims.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 23:26, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Uhh no. An uninvolved admin specifically says that there is consensus to include that specific line in the lead of those articles. Consensus does not mean unanimous consent, it does not mean that a set of users can filibuster and demand that their position be accepted. nableezy - 23:30, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

No. You are fabricating words which were not specifically said. No uninvolved admin said there was a consensus or even a "basis" for consensus for pushing the soapbox "Like all Israeli settlements" into the lead. The editors who quickly disagreed here are, on the other hand, a reality. Fabricating a "consensus" to propose a sanction against another editor is a clear example of WP:GAME. Jaakobou 00:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If Shuki had a problem with that part of the sentence, he or she could have raised it for discussion or, at the most, amended the sentence. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If Nab had a problem with the status quo, rather than inserting a hotly contested edit that was reverted by three editors (in the lede no less), he could have used the Talk page or discussed the issue further in a centralized location.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No Nableezy had consensus, as determined by the admin who closed the discussion, on his side. Ignoring consensus on the basis that it is "not clear" is tendentious editing. Like it or not, the closing admin's decision needs to be accepted as final. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

So one editor ignoring three others is under a consensus? You think that is logical? Jaakobou 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

More obfuscation. The consensus was determined by LHvU on the relevant discussion page. It is not determined by however many editors reverted Nableezy. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Your tone does not make your argument stronger. (a) off course it matters what the community thinks and matters how many editors find Nableezy's version wrong. (b) there was never a consensus for the soapbox version Nableezy keeps introducing and LHvU doesn't even mention it. I know its fun to say "x determined y" when we're talking about z... but it's a bullshit argument. Jaakobou 03:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If that was the case Shuki should have amended z to match y, not revert it entirely. Without discussion, it was disruptive and tendentious. In any case, you are inventing your own reasons for Shuki's actions, that are very different for the reasons Shuki has given. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Pushing a non-consensus soapbox version into the lead was the problem, not the act of reverting it. Jaakobou 17:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You are repeating false statements despite having been shown that your statement is false. When will an admin finally step up and ban you from this place? nableezy - 17:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

@sanctions - aside from the matter about the length of the ban, might it also be worthwhile considering whether the ban should be limited to settlement articles instead of the PIA conflict generally? Settlement articles seem to be a discrete area of WP conflict and this issue doesn't go outside that area. Just a thought. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by RolandR

It seems to me that LHvU's finding was clear and unequivocal: "I am of the opinion that the wording per Proposal 2; "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." has consensus, and secondly that there is consensus for it to be included in all relevant articles". LHvU further noted that "consensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition". It is clear that some editors dispute this finding; but they cannot claim that this was not the outcome of the discussion.

LHvU also noted that "It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct". We are now seeing the truth of this comment; it is surely time for this recommendation to be acted on. RolandR (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You are also misrepresnting my actions and LessHeard. If you read the line you posted, it is actually about those who do not want to note the legality of the settlements. He is commenting on those who want to strike this from the articles, like Nableezy has on the Ariel article. --Shuki (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Sean.hoyland

I would like to appeal to any admins examining this case to review the evidence carefully, particulary the statements by uninvolved admin LessHeard vanU in the centralised discussion. We've reached a critical stage in the process and it's taken years of edit wars, blocks and lengthy discussions to reach this point. It's critical because what happens next in terms of implementation will probably decide whether we can resolve the issue once and for all and move on or whether we will face more slow burn edit wars, blocks, and fragmented, uncoordinated arguments in a large number of articles. It happens to be Shuki in this AE report. It could have been someone else being reported for either adding or removing the content so whatever is decided here there needs to be clarity so that editors know whether their actions are legitimate and consistent with the centralized discussion or not. Sean.hoyland - talk 22:13, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

For context and a sanity check, I have added a compiliation of sources discussing the legality issue to the IPCOLL page. Some sources are from the discussions that LessHeard vanU reviewed that resulted in the consensus he identified, some are already in use in various articles and some are new sources that I've found. The sources are intended as a resource for people (including admins here at AE) who want to compare LessHeard vanU's findings with the sources and assess the legitimacy of editor's statements and actions. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Jiujitsuguy

This is a case of content dispute plain and simple and Nableezy is attempting to force the issue here, at AE, rather than dispute resolution. He does not have consensus for the contentious language he wishes to shove down our throats and he certainly does not have consensus for inserting this type of tendentious editing in the lede. Indeed, in both articles he cites to, he was the lone editor who was reverted by three different editors, indicating that 1) he is in the minority and 2) that this is still an issue that is the subject of discourse. There is simply nothing actionable here. Respectfully,--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

There very clearly is something actionable here. That you, brewcrewer and Shuki dislike what there is consensus for does not change that there is consensus. At the very least, the clarification by LHvU on what he saw consensus for, and consensus not meaning how many people shout NO as loud as they can, is for including the language you dislike in the pleace you dislike (the lead). It is incredibly disheartening that even after going through this process we still have to deal with crap like a few users not liking the outcome of the discussion and attempting to enforce their view in spite of it. The following things are indisputably true. A centralized discussion took place, with you, Shuki and brewcrewer all being involved. That discussion was closed by an uninvolved admin. That admin said there is consensus for including the line and for placing it in the lead of articles. Are any of those things under dispute? That users disagree with that close does not entitle them to ignore it, much like how if an AfD closes with a delete consensus (regardless of the headcount), a user who disputes that consensus cannot simply recreate the article. nableezy - 22:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Being disingenuous about it won't magically create a consensus when there is non. I'd do the same edits as Shuki did in a heartbeat. That you are still provocatively pushing the words "Like all Israeli settlements", "illegal", and "colony" to the first paragraph of articles relating Israel is a sad reflection on this project's ability to handle disruptive conduct. Jaakobou 23:24, 27 November 2010 (UTC) +c 00:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

An uninvolved admin specifically says there is consensus to include that line in the lead of those articles. I actually wish you had been the one to make these reverts as I think Misplaced Pages would be much better off if you were banned as opposed to Shuki. nableezy - 23:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Just in this short conversation, 6 editors: Cptnono, Mbz1, Brewcrewer, Jiujitsuguy, Shuki, Jaakobou disagree with your disingenuous representation of a so-called consensus. Don't let any facts confuse you. Jaakobou 23:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

An uninvolved admin closed the discussion saying there is consensus for inclusion of that line in the lead, including the line I will briefly note that consensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition. Dont let any actual facts confuse you. nableezy - 00:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No. You are fabricating words which were not specifically said. No uninvolved admin said there was a consensus or even a "basis" for consensus for pushing the soapbox "Like all Israeli settlements" into the lead. The editors who quickly disagreed here are, on the other hand, a reality. Fabricating a "consensus" to propose a sanction against another editor is a clear example of WP:GAME. Jaakobou 00:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You are purposely distorting what has happened here. You want to argue that my exact sentence was not what the admin said there was consensus for? Fine, Ill add the exact sentence the admin says there was consensus for, lets see what happens then. nableezy - 07:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Now it is 7 editors who disagree with Nableezy on this discussion. This, according to Nableezy, shows that I am "purposely distorting what has happened". 1 Nableezy : 0 World. Will Nableezy ever let facts confuse him or will he still insist someone determined there was a consensus for his WP:SOAP violating version in the lead when no such thing has happened? Jaakobou 10:20, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No amount of wikilawyering can escape the fact that an uninvolved admin specifically says there is consensus for that material. Consensus is not a vote, and no matter how many me toos, nearly all of whom voiced already voiced their complaints at the discussion that an uninvolved admin says there was consensus, you get the fact remains that an uninvolved admin says there is consensus for this material. nableezy - 15:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No uninvolved admin approved your soapbox "like all other" text and you are repeating the same WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT argument. Jaakobou 17:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Your argument is on its face inane. That you repeat it does not do you any favors. There very clearly is an uninvolved admin who says the material belongs in the lead. If you wish to argue that 3 of the 20 words did not have consensus fine, but it does not excuse the complete removal of material for which there is consensus to include. That you persist in calling something that can be sourced to 100+ sources "SOAP" only serves to illustrate the illogical nature of your argument. nableezy - 17:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Jiujitsuguy are false, its not a content dispute, the issue was discussed, consensus is based on arguments, not votes. An uninvolved admin looked at it, and since those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements kept out of Misplaced Pages articles did not bring any good arguments, and those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements in Misplaced Pages articles brought good arguments, the consensus was to have the information, but Jiujitsuguy, shuki do not accept the consensus, so now they just say "no" and edit war against the consensus.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Mbz1

I read a closure by LessHeard vanU and found it extremely confusing. The request is not actionable. The editors should continue trying reaching the consensus, but not on AE, on the articles talk pages.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Six or even 3 months topic ban for two edits even assuming they were wrong is way, way too much. I hear about battleground behavior, but Nableezy and others are displaying the same kind of behavior. It takes at least two users to create a battleground. How many times Nableezy filed AE that were closed with no actions taken. The proposed sanctions are absolutely disproportional. I believe an interaction ban between Nableezy and Shuki will do the job.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Jaakobou

Nableezy has been topic banned a total of 7.5 months and blocked on numerous occasions for continuous incivility, edit-warring and this "illegal" issue: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• 4 months - lowered to 2:
• 2 months more:
• 1.5 months more:

Personally, I support the presented edits performed by Shuki 100% and point out that Nableezy is violating both Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Principles of misuse of the project for advocacy and furtherance of outside conflicts as well as continuous effort on gaming the system. Jaakobou 23:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)+clarify/punctuate+diff 23:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

p.s. there is a worrying modus operandi where Nableezy tag-teams his efforts to have fellow editors sanctioned when there is disagreement on content. The number of editors who quickly respond here goes to show exactly who wants to make a controversial political advocacy type of addition against consensus (e.g. Nableezy, Supreme Deliciousness, to be seen). Jaakobou 23:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

But wait... there's more. 2 of Nableezy's 10 or so sanctions/2 of Shuki's 4 sanctions were related to this dispute: and This one was even Nableezy bringing SHuki here. Both of you guys need to stop reverting. I totally feel Shuki's frustration of courseCptnono (talk) 23:54, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:IRONY =) Sol (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Sol

So is the consensus confirmation valid or not? That seems to be the real question. I'm amazed the proposal has managed to survive despite the Atlas-crushing mountain of pettifoggery in the discussion, so nice work, those who labored on. Sol (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Shuki made reverts on two different pages. Who say he can't? Queen Nableezy? Adding "like all Israeli settlements" to articles without a source that specifically uses this terminology AND specifically cites the name of the place in question, is ORIGINAL RESEARCH. SPA accounts like Nableezy's are a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. No wonder the academic world regards this site as a bunch of crap.--Yespleazy (talk) 06:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Its nice to know I have gone to being 50 different wimpy guys to being a Queen. Ill leave your fantasy intact and not disrupt your imagination with what actually happened. nableezy - 07:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy

I suggest everyone read the close by LessHeard vanU Nableezy linked to above . I find it to be very well thought out, clearly worded, and I wish every admin would articulate their thoughts like this.
I don't see how anyone can claim that his close supports the wording Shuki removed from the article. Where exactly does he say "like all Israeli settlements X is illegal" is apropriate? On the contrary, he says he is of the opinion that "(subject) is a settlement of disputed legality..." etc. (or variations thereof)" is what should be included in the lede. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I strongly concur. Here you can see the two versions the closing admin suggested, side-by-side, implemented at the Psagot article. I ended up switching back to the version that included the sentence in the lead, because the admin later clarified their statement that the "disputed legality" phrasing should be used "only in those instances where there appeared to be an introductory paragraph and a main section (or two)." In this case, the article in question (Psagot) has four sections, but the first diff I linked could be viewed as a model of the two options. ← George 13:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Um sorry, the version which LHvU says has consensus is "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." most certainly not No More's "of disputed ilegality". All Nab has added is "like all". Which simply clears up a potential point of confusion. Entirely blanking the statement for which their is consensus on the grounds that the phrasing is slightly more explicit on one point not covered in LHvU's summary is most certainly disruptive.--Misarxist 14:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I copied the part in quotation marks including the "of disputed legality" (including the italics) right from the diff I provided above. Did you read it all the way through? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

And LHvU said that applied only to articles with a lead and a single section after that. He said for articles with developed bodies the entire line should go into the lead. Ive quoted the clarification where this is made clear. This is simply more lawyering in an attempt to obfuscate a clear close. nableezy - 15:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)That's correct, the wording No More argues for is in a "suggestion that may satisfy the agreed need to include the form of words that has consensus into articles where there has been a perceived issue" and that perceived issue is the one mentioned in: "Whilst there is agreement of the use of the wording in articles both of multi section length, and single section/stub standard, there is not yet any agreement on how to incorporate it in an article that has a lede paragraph, and then a body which is generally only one section." Hence there is consensus for the longer articles.--Misarxist 15:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I doubt calling something that begins with "I anticipate that there needs to be further discussion on a couple of points I will raise, so I am not prepared to say that my review is definitive; but that it should be regarded as a basis for a consensus of the agreed text between the various parties to the editing of articles relating to certain settlements in Israeli occupied territories." a "clear close" that supports you adding OR to what LHvU said, is more than wishful thinking on your part. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

OR???? Really? Ive given somthing like 20 sources that support the wording I used. And yes, the close was clear. Especially after the linked and quoted clarification, which you distort by saying the text LHvU said there was consensus for was "of disputed legality". nableezy - 15:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Hopefully, LHvU will stop by and clarify what he meant. I see no purpose in continuing to discuss this with you, so I'll bow out now. Feel free to get your last word in. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You disagree? You think the following is not crystal clear?

I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles

In case that is too difficult to comprehend, "proposal 2" says The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. LHvU clearly wrote that line has consensus to be in the lead of such articles. Asking for further clarification to something that even a child can understand is simply disruptive stalling. nableezy - 17:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• If LHvU says "relating to certain settlements" then how is it possible to use the expression "Like 'all' settlements"? -- 172.190.32.76 (talk) 15:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC) (observer)

Comment by Gatoclass

I concur with Sean Hoyland's and RolandR's statements above. This dispute has dragged on for many months now, generating an endless number of cases, debates and discussions, and all because Shuki can't abide to have the highly notable information that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law in his precious Israeli settlement articles. After a recent discussion reached consensus that it was appropriate to include the information, Nableezy is now being reverted on the grounds that he didn't employ the precise wording recommended in that debate, even though the meaning of Nableezy's text is virtually identical. So what's next? Nableezy adopts the precise wording, only to have a new round of objections on the basis that he dared put it in the lede and not in the body of the article. Or that he put it in the lede of an article with only one section instead of an article with multiple sections. And so on.

I consider this to be a classic example of WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on Shuki's part and I think it's time the community did something about it. The alternative is to have yet another interminable debate which will have to attempt to dot every "i" and "t" of precisely what wording is permitted to be used and where so that there are no possible loopholes left for Shuki to exploit. But we shouldn't need to do this. AE was created precisely in order to circumvent this kind of behaviour and I think Shuki has caused enough disruption already.

BTW, I recommend that adjudicators read Sean's compilation of sources to confirm just how well established and uncontroversial are the facts that Nableezy has long been prevented from adding to these articles. Gatoclass (talk) 16:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No one prevented the legality issue from being added and it is disingenuous to present matters as if that were the case. The issue of contest was Nableezy's "Like all other" soapbox in the lead and/or first paragraph of every Israel related article he touches -- the main reason he was banned for 7.5 months in the past year. Solidarity with your ideological partner aside, Gatoclass, your argument does not relate to the diffs in question. Jaakobou 16:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The recommended text was The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the territories) illegal under international law. How exactly does this differ in substance with Nableezy's edit? I submit to you that it does not. This is not a valid objection at all, it's just wikilawyering. Gatoclass (talk) 17:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gatoclass, it is of no wonder that you are insensitive to subtleties about Israel ( per "it does not " ) but clearly, as 6 established editors quickly noted, Nableezy's version is not under consensus. Jaakobou 17:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

That is one untruth followed by another. But we'll see, Ill add the exact wording to the lead and then we can see if the "Like all Israeli settlements" really was the issue. nableezy - 17:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaak, it's not soap. It's a statement that complies with policy. As you can see from the compilation of sources here, saying "Like 'all' settlements" is supported by the sources. See the BBC sources at the top and others. It just happens to not be the statement that was selected in the discussions. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

NOTICE:

It just happens to not be the statement that was selected in the discussions. - Sean.hoyland, 17:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Even Sean.hoyland -- someone with a similar world-view to Nableezy -- agrees that the version deemed as basis for future agreement is not the one Nableezy is pushing as the so-called "consensus". Sean.hoyland, no surprise, excuses this but there is clearly disagreement to Nableezy's insertion in the lead -- and no admin (except the highly involved Gatoclass) supported his WP:SOAP version either.

With respect, Jaakobou 17:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Pedantry is not a virtue Jaakobou, there is no real difference between the versions. And Sean does not say the version was deemed a "basis", he says it was the one "selected". Next time you misrepresent a person's views you may want to try to do it somewhere other than directly below where they express their views. nableezy - 17:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The uninvolved admin whom you keep misrepresenting used the word "basis" and 6 editors note that your soapbox text is unacceptable in leads. Next time, apply basic thought before you attack me for something I have not said. Jaakobou 17:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The uninvolved admin wrote the following (and this has been quoted no less than 3 times on this page):

I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles

Try to argue around that as much as you like, there very clearly was a judgment made that there is consensus for the inclusion of The international community considers Israeli settlements in illegal under international law, though the Israeli government disputes this. in the lead of the articles. That you persist in misrepresenting the clear words quoted is only one more reason why you should be banned. nableezy - 17:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaak...I don't have a 'world view' by the way but feel free to carry on thinking that I do. It makes no difference to the rule based decision procedures used to generate article content. I'm not excusing anything. These are all distractions. At some point the content policies of this project have to be enforced and this issue about the the legality statements has to be resolved once and for all. That's what matters, the content not the individuals. If editors want to sacrifice themselves for their cause by disrupting this process then admins should oblige them with a topic ban so that the process can continue in a orderly way in accordance with policy as far as I'm concerned. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if you feel there's a misrepresentation Sean. However, when you defend soapboxing and policy violations of a certain world-view and when I find myself explaining that there's nothing offensive in describing a prominent left-wing journalist as Israeli left-wing and the response is "he isn't an elephant or a table" it adds up to create a certain image. That said, I agree with you that it would do well for the project to resolve the settlements legality issue -- hopefully in a collegiate manner rather than through gaming. I would support removal of the more disruptive editors in the I-P area, regardless of their world-view. Jaakobou 19:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You are over thinking it.

• If countless sources said "The international community does not consider Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, and the Israeli government agrees." that would be the statement that I would be supporting (along with many other people no doubt). It's about what the sources say.
• I don't know what soapboxing or policy violations you are referring to specifically but saying that all of the Israeli settlements outside of Israel are regarded as illegal under international law isn't soapboxing and in a normal topic area no one would bat an eyelid if someone added an entirely uncontroversial statement like that supported by countless sources to an article. They would be glad that someone else was helping them build the article. That's why I edit in this topic area, because it's broken. I support editors who try to get articles to say what the sources say. It's that simple.
• If you make a statement like "where does Levy say that he's not in the Israeli left? (hint: he doesn't)." you are employing an absence of evidence to generate a unverified conclusion hence my retort "Maybe in the same place that he says that he isn't an elephant or a table". This was intended to highlight the invalidity of your conclusion by suggesting that you may also be able to conclude that he is an elephant or a table by using the same absence of evidence contradicting those conclusions. I'm a geoscientist not a propagandist. When people use logic like that in my world, bad things happen. Here it's just a verification failed policy violation but it's still wrong. Again, it's about what the sources say. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• Could some one please point the readers to the specific international law that all of these settlements are "considered" in violation of? I would appreciate that clarification. 172.190.32.76 (talk) 00:11, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I oppose interaction bans on principle as I think they are impractical. I don't see how Shuki and Nableezy could work on the same articles without communicating with one another, and while they are obviously frustrated with one another I haven't seen any evidence of gross incivility. Perhaps as a compromise a time-limited interaction ban, to allow tensions to decrease? Gatoclass (talk) 06:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, there's a problem with every I-P report on this board resulting in a hostile debate. I'm not a 100% sure what is the best way to resolve this. I think interactions bans are worth trying. Otherwise, we could ban some editors from commenting on reports that aren't about them. But anyway, I agree with Cla68 comments, and don't think we can allow the situation to continue. PhilKnight (talk) 07:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

So what do you suggest for this specifically? I made an effort to not bombard this AE but when another editor throws in an accusation when they did something 10x worse it is tough to ignore. Cptnono (talk) 07:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

A Heads-Up About Nableezy's Use of This Issue

I just wanted to let people know that Nableezy is taking it as a forgone conclusion that Shuki will be topic-banned for 6 months and is using that as a threat to get people to self-revert edits that he disagrees with. I don't have the experience with Misplaced Pages that many of you do, but I suspect that is inappropriate behavior for this site. Please take a look at my talk page. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by LessHeard vanU

I would note that the only wording I found consensus for was that specifically provided under proposal 2. Any variation of that, by addition or subtraction, needs to find consensus, either generally or in the specific situation. This would include content immediately prior to or preceeding those words, where they effect the meaning of the agreed text.
I also found consensus for those words (but only those words) to be included in all relevant articles (that is, those articles relating to Israeli settlements in the occupied lands). I also further found agreement for the inclusion of the text in the lede of multi section articles, and for it in stub or very short articles where it was the only such mention. Only in some articles, those which had a brief introduction and then a body of one or two sections, was there disagreement on how it was to be incorporated - but not if. I devised a suggestion which allowed the inclusion of the consensus text, by placing it in the body, and satisfied WP:LEDE by using a more concise variant in the opening paragraph.
I trust this clarifies my thinking. I regret that my style of commentary gave the impression that consensus had not been achieved in the substantive issues; in my view it had. I stand by my comments that my view is not definitive - but only in so far that the wiki editing method allows consensus to change upon presentation of better or different interpretation of policy that deprecates that existing - and might usefully continue to be reviewed and discussed; this does not mean that it may be disregarded, however. If parties would like specific comments upon specific points, or interpretation of what I said and meant (not always easy, not even for me!) then please present them in list form. I shall place this page on my watchlist. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Why do you still continue to not be decisive? Your first paragraph is fine, but then you backtrack in the second. I stand by my comments that my view is not definitive. I stand my by recent comments as well, given AGF, I hope that you are not insinuating that I have disregarded your comments. --Shuki (talk) 00:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I am decisive - I refuse to let my determination stultify further efforts between editors. I recognise my decisions can be overturned by a new consensus, is all. As for whether you have disregarded my comments, I have no opinion since I have no interest; that matter is for others to discuss. My view on what has consensus is, I trust, clear. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You certainly were decisive. I have already expressed that I do not agree completely with your conclusion but it was a step in the right direction. You showed some fortitude (I would use another term if editors had not been so against my previous language) making a decision. You obviously realize how touchy the topic area is from your closing statement. That is for discussions off this AE, though. Your view on consensus is already being implemented (George did one, Supreme Deliciousness did one, and I reluctantly did one). That has spurred some further discussion and I still hope there will be some changes. We are on the right track but discussion on what (if anything else at all) is to take place with the wording should be at the centralized discussion.Cptnono (talk) 10:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Cla68

If the responding admins would look at this talk page thread, you'll see a series of personal attacks by Nableezy and Cptnono on each other and other editors. I notice that Brewcrewer was also involved in that discussion. A few months ago, when I warned another editor involved in the I/P articles, IronDuke, about personal attacks, Brewcrewer appeared to imply that I was involved in white supremecy forums off-wiki (at least, that's how I interpreted his remark). If I were a new editor, I would find the hostile discourse that these editors employ with each other in discussing this topic extremely off-putting and distasteful. Actually, I find it off-putting and distasteful even though I'm not a new editor. Cla68 (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

There was no personal attack. I was practically begging Nableezy to see the centralized discussion. You on the other hand readded the line that did not have consensus. (which I replaced with the version the admin saw consensus in regardless of my feelings on it, by the way) So maybe a ban for you is appropriate or should we chalk it up to being new in the topic area?Cptnono (talk) 06:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"Stop going out of your way to start trouble." Do you guys talk to each other like this so much that you no longer even recognize it as personal attack? Cla68 (talk) 06:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

He was causing trouble. There was confusion on the consensus (and we would later be reminded that he was also adding a line that did not have consensus) and instead of seeking resolution at the centralized discussion he was opening up three individual discussions. That is starting trouble pure and simple. I understand that saying "going out of your way" might have sounded slightly mean but it was far from a personal attack. But do you want to clarify why you added the line that did not have consensus? An admin made it clear below that that was not acceptable and you did it within 20 minutes of that. Cptnono (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Good grief. Cla68 (talk) 07:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I feel the same way. Did you notice when I made sure to inform Shuki on the consensus? I am shocked that you would attempt to say that I did anything wrong here. This is compounded by the fact that I was the one who started the centralized discussion that led to consensus (whether I think it was the best conclusion or not). I'm not the trouble maker here. And you have still failed to explain why you mae a revert to a line that did not have consensus.Cptnono (talk) 07:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you are reinforcing my point that you and the other main editors of this topic have gotten locked into an adversarial method of communicating with each other. When questioned on it, the editors involved immediately start attacking the accuser and anyone else involved while minimizing their own contributing actions. Is this the norm for that topic area? Cla68 (talk) 07:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Have I called you a jerk or anything like that? No. You made an accusation that specifically named me and I denied it. You still have not explained why you made a revert to a line that did not have consensus. Anyone of us "regulars" would have been at AE for it. Did I bring you here? No. I fixed the edit and informed you on the talk page. Of course I am going to be a little ticked off when you do that then name me as being in error. So do you have an explanation or not?Cptnono (talk) 07:10, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Cla, your engagement with said debate is welcome, but with respect, in a protracted debate such as this people are inevitably going to get a little testy. What you interpret as "a series of personal attacks" I see as a group of editors trying hard to remain civil in very trying circumstances. Please let's not escalate this dispute any further than is necessary. Gatoclass (talk) 07:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you. There is no reason for editors to be communicating with each other that way on an article talk page. If they are getting that visibly and disturbingly testy with each other, then they need to take break from the topic and/or each other. Cla68 (talk) 07:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

And it cooled down after that. SO can you now explain why you made that revert? Seriously, that was much more egregious and you have still failed to answer. I didn't open an AE because I thought it would be counterproductive but now I am wondering why you would not fess up to your mistake there.Cptnono (talk) 07:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Cla, when you mention that you "warned" me for personal attacks, you left a few key details out. The most important of these, of course, is that you were (and apparently still are) meatpuppeting for banned editors User:Gnetwerker and User:Herschelkrustofsky. I had hoped you'd been admonished about this already, or perhaps you decided to ignore it. I think I've been pretty patient about your behavior; I haven't sought any kind of block or ban for what is unambiguously a gross violation of Misplaced Pages policy, but my patience won't last forever. I have the right to remove any and all comments you make about me or edits against me on behalf of banned editors, though I would rather not do so. I'd rather you acknowledged what you're doing is wrong, or at least promise to cease the disruption.

Oh, and in case that's not already wrong enough, the article in question, Leo Frank, is not in the IP area, and the editor you were championing, User: Machn is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer who made racist and antisemitic statements ("Mr. Ebonics" and "Jew pervert," to take two charming examples). I wouldn't go so far as to say that your going to bat for this editor makes you a white supremacist, rather, I'd say you were pursuing agendas unhelpful to Misplaced Pages, and should stop immediately. IronDuke 17:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I am in substantial agreement with Mkativerata's comment above. Once an uninvolved administrator has determined the consensus of a discussion, it needs to be followed if our consensus-based editing model is worth anything. If there are disagreement with the closure, the closing administrator may be requested to reconsider, or review may be requested at an appropriate venue such as the administrators' noticeboard. But until that closure is actually modified, it is binding.

  According to LHvU's clarification: "I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles."

  There are claims that Nableezy's version (e.g., "Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, Ma'ale Adumim is considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.") differs from the wording LHvU refers to ("The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this."), but so far I am able to perceive zero substantive difference between the two.

  In short, this is going into WP:IDHT territory. The consensus has been determined by an uninvolved administrator, yet the user claims that "nothing is settled" and that the closure is "confusing" when it is abundantly clear. I think that this request is actionable, and given the history, including four separate sanctions, I propose a six-month topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

  • @Cptnono: Fair enough. It's a subtle difference, but now that you pointed it out I can certainly see it. As the objection has been made clear, I expect Nableezy to either conform their future edits to the consensus wording as determined by LHvU, or obtain consensus for their new version. If they do neither, an AE request will likely be looked upon favorably.

    This, however, does not affect the proper disposition of the request at hand. The claim that "nothing settled" is absurd in light of LHvU's closure of that discussion. T. Canens (talk) 00:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

  • With the subject of the request at hand having been addressed, I think we might wish to look a bit closely at the comments above. I think it is apparent that the topic-wide 1RR restriction recently implemented did not sufficiently contain the battleground behavior. The discussion between Nableezy and Jaakobou under #Statement by Shuki, for example, is filled with personal attacks ("fabricating consensus", "purposefully deceitful"). Jaakobou's list of Nableezy's history of sanctions is entirely unhelpful; presumably most admins here are aware of it already (and the history of the filer, of course, has very little, if any, to do with the proper sanctions imposed by AE); the use of <big> tags to surround the "7.5 months" figure is worse. Gilabrand (talk · contribs)'s comment here is also highly problematic ("Queen", "disgrace"). I propose that we also impose interaction bans between Jaakobou and Nableezy, and between Gilabrand and Nableezy, so that we may hopefully curb this battleground behavior. T. Canens (talk) 00:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
  • @Mkativerata: I did consider a limited topic ban, but given the battleground behavior prevalent in this topic area recently, I think it preferable to force a complete disengagement followed by gradual return on appeal if good work in other topic areas can be demonstrated, rather than risk the conflict spilling over into other parts of this topic area. T. Canens (talk) 01:10, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• I agree that the two edits by Shuki that are cited by the submitter of this AE represent WP:IDHT regarding LHvU's summing up of the discussion. I support T. Canens' recommendation of a 6-month topic ban of Shuki from I-P articles. EdJohnston (talk) 00:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Firstly, I'd like to thank LessHeard vanU for closing the original discussion, and for commenting here. I substantially agree with above comments by T. Canens and EdJohnston, and I also agree with Sean.hoyland's comment - it has taken a lot of time and effort to get this far in establishing a consensus, and while that consensus may change in the future, we shouldn't simply ignore it. The only area of disagreement I have is that I consider 6 months to be a little on the long side. I would have thought a 3-month topic ban would be sufficient given that Shuki merely removed the wording from the lede, and left the text in the main body of the article. PhilKnight (talk) 00:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Also, I agree with the interaction bans, and would add if they don't work, stronger measure will obviously be required. PhilKnight (talk) 01:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

• Regarding the above comments by Cla68, I agree completely, and there should also be an interaction ban between Cptnono and Nableezy. PhilKnight (talk) 07:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

First, I would not interpret Shuki's action as leaving "the text in the main body", as I think it's more plausible that they simply reverted Nableezy. The history here - 4 separate sanctions in a single year (or really, since April, so it's more like 7 months) - also supports a stronger sanction. As always, if there is evidence of good work in other areas, we can lift the ban early on appeal.

The recent deterioration in behavior, however, really needs to be restrained, with seemingly draconian sanctions if necessary, before it becomes uncontrollable and requires yet another arbcom case, which I think no one here wants to see.

In the same spirit, I agree with the additional interaction ban PhilKnight proposed, and I add that if the interaction bans don't work out well, then pretty much the only choice open to us is lengthy topic bans from the whole area.

Finally, I draw people's attention to AGK's comment in this old AE thread, which I find to be particularly on point:

Interjecting criticism of the conduct of other editors into consensus-building discussions is a wholly unhelpful practice....Talk page discussions are exclusively for discussion of the content of an article and for building an editorial consensus on disputed content matters. Any editors who do not abide by this ethos in their contributions to article talk pages are, in the first case, damaging genuine attempts to build consensus, and in the second, liable to be blocked or sanctioned.

T. Canens (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi T. Canens, based on this comment by Shuki, I agree with your assessment, and support a 6 month topic ban. PhilKnight (talk) 19:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I think it's time to close this. Based on the discussion above, and under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions:

• In general:
  • All participants here are reminded that they should conform their future edits in this respect to the consensus wording as determined by LHvU, until and unless consensus for a different wording is established. Failure to do so may lead to sanctions, including but not limited to blocks and topic bans.
  • All participants here are further reminded that it is unacceptable to interject criticisms of other editors into talk page discussions. Concerns about editorial conduct should be brought to dispute resolution processes, or WP:ANI, or WP:AE, as appropriate. Failure to do so may result in sanctions.
• Topic ban:
  • Shuki (talk · contribs) is topic banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the area of conflict, as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, for 6 months.
• Interaction bans
  • Jaakobou (talk · contribs), Gilabrand (talk · contribs) and Cptnono (talk · contribs) are admonished for personal attacks and ad hominem comments; they are prohibited from commenting on or interacting with Nableezy (talk · contribs) anywhere on Misplaced Pages.
  • Nableezy (talk · contribs) is admonished for personal attacks; they are prohibited from commenting on or interacting with Jaakobou (talk · contribs), Gilabrand (talk · contribs) and Cptnono (talk · contribs) anywhere on Misplaced Pages.
  • The scope of the interaction bans above is defined in WP:IBAN.
  • If either party to an interaction ban imposed above believes that the other has violated the interaction ban, they may not react to this except by the means of a single report at WP:AE. They are permitted to edit the other party's talk page for the sole purpose of informing them of the existence of the report. The other party will be permitted to respond to the report on WP:AE, but neither party may add anything further to the report after the reported party responds.

T. Canens (talk) 21:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Note on protections of computability-related articles

This is just a note (and opportunity for others to review) about some enforcement of Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt, in particular Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt#Post-case_clarification. The syndrome is multiple IP editors repeatedly adding material that pushes a POV favoring Hewitt's research, with references to Google Knol articles or Arxiv.org articles written by Hewitt. Today, I semi-protected Church-Turing thesis for 1 month. Gödel's incompleteness theorems has been under pending-changes protection for a while. It's an admittedly esoteric area, so only editors who have the pages on watchlist are likely to notice. I don't mind doing these protections, but since I'm a frequent editor in that area I wanted to make a post here for transparency. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that these protections are necessary. In many cases, WP:PROTECT might allow longer protection than one month, since the problem has been going on or four years. Blocking these IPs doesn't seem possible, since there are so many different ones. EdJohnston (talk) 22:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Accipio Mitis Frux

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Accipio Mitis Frux

User requesting enforcement

Nableezy 20:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Accipio Mitis Frux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. See below

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Notified of case

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Whatever works

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is similar to the request about Shuki above. A user has removed the exact wording that has consensus for the lead, claiming that there is no consensus and that the clear close of the centralized discussion is not clear and resulted in no consensus. I informed the editor in question of the potential consequences of refusing to abide by consensus and the editor declined to self-revert the edit, instead saying that they refuse to be bullied by me (). I hope this thread will not turn in to the circus we have seen above.

I have just added 2 more reverts to the list of diffs. The editor has now reverted 3 separate users who have added the line, violating both the clear close of the centralized discussion as well as the 1RR that applies to the ARBPIA topic area. nableezy - 21:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Tim, all the things that you say should have been linked to in my initial comment on the user's talk page have already been linked to at the talk page of the article. I did not threaten the user with a lengthy topic ban, I informed the user that another user was about to receive a lengthy topic ban for the same behavior and that I would seek a topic ban if the user refused to abide by consensus. nableezy - 00:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Accipio Mitis Frux

Statement by Accipio Mitis Frux

My position is very basic. I am not an individual who has been overly invested in pages regarding the Israeli-Arab conflict, and use Misplaced Pages as a source to receive information on this topic, not bestow it. However, I make edits when I think it is appropriate and I saw a need here.

I hate to get personal, but I've had some interaction with Nableezy on a prior page some months ago and it was by far the worst experience in my nearly five years on Misplaced Pages. There was no room for a real conversation, just insults to my intelligence straight from the get-go followed up by an immediate attempt to restrict my access. Once again, we have the same pattern of behavior.

I have a problem with this approach. After the edit that he saw as problematic, had he posted to my page that he would be changing it back in 24 hours with a respectful explanation, it would not have been an issue. Instead, I got a message to "self-revert or else." I am not going to be strong-armed I can't believe that this is appropriate behavior for Misplaced Pages. In any case, I disagree with the insistance that there is consensus for this change. However, I do not have vast quantities of time to devote to this topic and am just going to let the chips fall where they may. Meaning, I am voluntarily taking a break from editing the page in question and am bowing out of the debate.

However, with what little time I do have I'd like to return the favor and lodge a complaint against Nableezy for hostile behavior. I would appreciate instructions on the best way to do this as I do not have any experience in this area. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 08:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fine, I self-reverted. Cancel what I said about bowing out of the debate. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 10:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Accipio Mitis Frux

And s/he has just reverted the edit for the third time today. RolandR (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

And note that the editor made a further two reversions after Nableezy's warning mentioned above. RolandR (talk) 01:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The editor has explicitly refused to self-revert, , so their 1RR-breaching reversion remains in the article. RolandR (talk) 08:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No, I did not specifically refuse to self-revert. I'm making the presumption that people will actually read what I wrote and not speed ahead with agressive action against me. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 08:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Have you reverted the edit which breaches the one-revert restriction? Will you do so? RolandR (talk) 08:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I self-reverted, as stated above. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 10:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I confirm that the editor has indeed self-reverted. I have explained to them how and where to continue the discussion of this text. I think they now understand the process, and have learned a lesson in Misplaced Pages, and that this request can be closed. If they make similar breaches in the future, there will be no wriggle-room to claim that they "did not know". RolandR (talk) 10:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Accipio Mitis Frux

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

MastCell has explained to the user what is going on. As the user has not edited since before MastCell's edit, I say we wait a bit longer for them to self-revert. If they refuse, then a block would be in order, both for 1RR violation and disruptive edit warring against consensus.

Also, I'll add that I do not find Nableezy's initial comment on their talk page to be helpful. Linking to a voluminous discussion does not really help anything, nor does threatening lengthy topic bans for a first violation. It is much preferable to link to LHvU's closure of that discussion, the admin comments at the AE request, and to include a better explanation why the revert was inappropriate. T. Canens (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cptnono

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Interaction ban with Nableezy. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Shuki, logged at ]>

Administrator imposing the sanction

Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Cptnono

The interaction ban is based on the comment "Then you need to explain why you disregarded the admins suggestion on how to implement this. Stop going out of your way to start trouble." That was an attack in the very broadest definition. I do understand that "going out of your way" could be considered mean. I was pleading with editors to use the centralized discussion and the other comments made show this: The centralized discussion was unraveling and it was a huge concern since we were so close to getting it figured out. In hindsight, I should have taken a step back since I was only feeding the fire in my attempt.

Nableezy and I do not have a good history and there is no question that I disagree with his behavior. That leads me to what I feel is a very important part of my appeal. I was so frustrated with different editor's (especially Nableezy's which is one reason I understand where the admins are coming from) behavior that I made the mistake of being grossly uncivil in the topic area. It was inappropriate and I received a short block and it was made clear that those comments were not appropriate. Just before and shortly after I received multiple comments from others expressing that this was a path they did not like seeing me go down. The block and those comments was a reminder to me of how to act. PhilKnight expressed on his talk page that he felt this interaction ban would be appropriate based on my history with Nableezy. I have already made the decision to show a renewed effort in any interaction. I understand that my single comment was off but it is not a serious violation according to the precedent set. I of course would be willing to go even farther with efforts to be civil if this appeal is successful based on the comments by the deciding admins. I feel that I learned from my past mistakes and that this interaction ban is an overreaction to that comment based on the poor history. If anyone else would have made that comment I do not think it would have raised eyebrows. However I do understand that we cannot forget my editing history.

@ LessHeard vanU: My intent if this is not successful would be to present evidence of better interaction in the topic area after sometime (3/6/12mos depending on how it goes). Kind of like WP:OFFER. However, I do not believe that is necessary. Although the vindicating myself is both needed and interesting, I would prefer not to do it with this over my head. Cptnono (talk) 23:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens: I know it is annoying for you as well but I am the one receiving limitations on my interactions which I feel will cause more of a burden than a solution. Didn't mean to make my appeal too long.Cptnono (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I see now. I'm actually surprised you aren't annoyed!Cptnono (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Sean: That hypothetical doesn't have any bearing on this and the comments made in the above discussion and the admin's talk pages show that it is not relevant. I would rather such conjecture on such possible scenarios not impact any decision. Even if it were to apply, my concern is not for any other editors in the topic area but my own. I'm not appealing this based on any worry of games being played or false feelings of me needing to police the topic area. My concern is that I am inhibited for reasoning that was already taken care of (assuming my one comment was not enough to warrant such action). I should be able to respond to comments at the centralized discussion. I shouldn't have to worry if an edit I am amending is that of someone I am banned from interacting with (or if going to talk as I would often prefer to do s a problem). Those are just two examples of what ifs and we know there will be more. Being better than I was is on me and no one else.Cptnono (talk) 06:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

@George: Thanks, dude. You really should be commenting on the FAN and not here. George summarized my thoughts. And since this is my appeal I do want to point out that if more editors were like him (including myself) this would be a better topic area. I also should mention that although we sometimes come down on different sides argument wise in this topic area, we have worked over at the Sounders project so there is definitely some good history. I hope this does not discredit his words but wanted to make sure that everything was extra open.Cptnono (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

I think it is pointless unnecessary for me to add to the voluminous discussion right above on this page. My rationale for the sanctions is explained in the above discussion and on Cptnono's talk page, and I incorporate it by reference here.

@LHvU: The intent is to make it indefinite for now, with review in a few months (three months sounds good), or sooner if the situation deteriorates, when it would likely be either lifted or changed into a topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Modified, T. Canens (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cptnono

Statement by LessHeard vanU

At the very least could there be some clarification on the length of the topic ban, it apparently being indefinite presently? The strictures on being able to edit certain topic area's may be sufficient to promote among the parties a desire to interact more appropriately, and I would urge that some further consideration may be given to permitting an appeal to lift these sanctions after a defined period (6 months?) if Cptnono's appeal here is unsuccessful and the tariff is determined to be either indefinite or 1 year or more. (I realise this is not discussing the appeal directly, but I am too involved to be acting as an admin on this page but wanted to address some issues and make suggestions.) LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by George

I think that this was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Cptnono was blocked for three hours for incivility only five days ago, largely due to interactions with Nableezy. I've seen them express frustration in interacting with Nableezy since then, but haven't seen much in the way of incivility, and I'm not in favor of someone being punished twice for the same offense. The comment Cptnono made to Nableezy in this discussion was borderline uncivil at best, and comparable to the tone of interactions between Wehwalt and SandyGeorgia in this discussion (I'm not commenting on either of those editors, nor suggesting an interaction ban between them, just noting the similarity in the tone in a conversation involving an administrator.) Given Cptnono's expressed understanding of the issue with the tone of their recent commentary, including the comment that led to this ban, and their professed willingness to try to improve on it, this sanction strikes me as more punitive then preventative. Having worked with both editors, I believe they have the ability to contribute and discuss constructively, even with each other, and this interaction ban will create annoying hurdles for both editors that I don't view as necessary at this point. I would suggest either removing it entirely, or reducing it to something like one week, with a warning that future, problematic interactions between them will result in a longer interaction ban. ← George 00:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Question from Sean.hoyland

What happens if one editor accepts (=takes no action to appeal) an interaction ban and the other one doesn't by the way ? I have no idea whether that applies in this case but I'm just asking. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see the discussion on the admins page. Nevermind then. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Staement by BorisG

I think this sanction interprets NPA and civility policy way too broadly. I believe it is profoundly wrong because if we continue on this path we will have no way to have an argument between editors. Sharp debates are a useful and necessary part of collaboration. - BorisG (talk) 08:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Cptnono

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Athenean

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Athenean

User requesting enforcement

— ZjarriRrethues —  00:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Athenean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Decorum

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• I'm not including October in the report but only November, so you can review the frequency of reverts of my edits on Albanian-Greek topics:

(partial) These are the vast majority of my edits that are related to Albanian-Greek issues in November(not including vandal reverts etc.). In Krokodeilos Kladas he hadn't made even one edit, until I made an edit, which he reverted.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA):

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Interaction ban with ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Since the beginning of my interaction ban Athenean has been following and reverting a large number of edits I have made in Albanian-Greek topics. Aware that I can't even reply to any of his reverts sometimes he doesn't even explain the reverts:

• John Shea? You absolutely must be joking removing not only the part, whose source he didn't like, but also the above irrelevant sentences that I had added any without explanation

regarding their source, which isn't John Shea

• They are by now assimilated, and identify as Greeks, and Vickers' figures are extreme anyway
• per talkpage explanation the explanation was Is this some kind of joke?...Nonsense regarding the CIA Factbook saying that Greece doesn't collect data on ethnicity. The rest of his comment is off-topic.
• The Ukrainian Quarerly? An index? Nope he reverted every edit, even a cn tag I added on an unreferenced sentence and like in the other reverts he didn't say why the two sources weren't reliable.
• I was allowed to make this report by TCanens who initially sanctioned me with an interaction ban. The only time Athenean self-reverted himself after reverting me was some hours after TCanens allowed me to make this report. I didn't report him them and unfortunately he continued reverting many of my edits on Albanian-Greek topics.
• how exactly is this notable enough to go in the lede? On Methana I added on the lead that this town of Greece is Albanian-speaking. Athenean removed it considering it non-notable enough. However, a couple of months ago when I had removed from the lead that village in Albania is partly Greek speaking he considered that sufficiently interesting to go in the lede and reverted me. The fact that a town in Greece is Albanian-speaking isn't notable, but the opposite is sufficiently interesting. Knowing that I can't even point out to the double standars used he makes reverts like this one.
• Athenean's saying that he's apparently Turkish because I added the name in the Ottoman Turkish form as the author. The author includes him in the list of Albanian mulkiyelis, so I don't understand how someone can't notice that, unless he reverts without verifying the sources.
• I updated the number of reverts(which now are about 15 without counting the fact that some are reverts of 2-3 edits in a row like in Berat/Kladas or that I'm editing less frequently) and they are a significant percentage of my edits in Greek-Albanian topics in November(Athenean shouldn't try to increase my number of edits in Albanian-Greek topics by saying that articles like Thimi Mitko are related to both Albania and Greece and that vandalism reverts about Bulgarians in Kastoria are also related to these two countries). I also don't understand why he asks for me to be sanctioned for using reliable online sources that can be found and verified by anyone on google books and not offline ones. Using sources that a user doesn't consider correct or doesn't even try to verify isn't a reason for sanctions and WP:AE is for formal sanctions. I also find his replies incosistent because he said If it to be imposed as a restriction, I would ask that some sort of editing restriction against using shoddy sourcing by ZjarriRrethues be put into effect as well and after I said that he can't ask for users to be sanctioned because of his opinions about the sources they use, he said when it looks like it is about to be dismissed, he digs deeper and deeper, playing the victim and making yet more false statements.. I am not calling for him to be sanctioned for his articlespace edits.

Discussion concerning Athenean

Statement by Athenean

Comments by others about the request concerning Athenean

Statement by Athenean

I find this report frivolous and filed in bad faith, for the reasons below:

• All of the above mentioned articles, with the exception of Krokodeilos Kladas, are on my watchlist, and have been so for a long time, well before the edits by Zjarri which I reverted (most if not all were watchlisted by me before Zjarri ever edited wikipedia). This can be easily verified by looking at the edit history of those articles - I have edited them before Zjarri did. Though I do check zjarri's contribs every once in a while, most of the time Zjarri's changes simply show up on my watchlist, there is absolutely no stalking as he seems to imply.

• Importantly, the claim that the above diffs are reverts of "the vast majority of my edits that are related to Albanian-Greek issues in November" is patently false. A quick look at Zjarri's contribs log for the month of November shows: 4 edits to Konitsa, 2 to Filiates, 3 to Paramythia, 3 to Margariti, 1 to Ali Pasha, 2 to Albanian Nationalism, 13 to Stratioti, 2 to Epirus (region), 2 to Korce, 5 to Moscopole, 1 to Metoq, 2 to Kostas Botsaris, 1 to Vergina, 1 to Pella, 1 to Athens (about Albanians ), 4 to Greater Albania, 2 to Arta, Greece, 4 to Ioannina, 1 to Pashalik of Yanina, 3 to Berat, 4 to Greek nationalism, 4 to Aromanians, 3 to Thimi Mitko, 2 to Ancient Macedonians, 1 to Thomas Flanginis, 1 to Balanos Vasilopoulos, 1 to Kastoria Prefecture, 2 to Krokodeilos Kladas, all of which can easily be considered "Greek-Albanian topics". Add to that several edits to Albanians and Skanderbeg pertaining to Greece or Greeks, and that's well over 80. Thus, the edits that I reverted are not the the vast majority of his edits to Albanian-Greek issues in November, but rather a small fraction. There were numerous occasions in the last month where I would have been well within my rights to revert Zjarii, but chose not to, for a number of reasons. This latest attempt by Zjarri to deceive the community regarding my edits is all the more odious considering that making false statements in AE requests was one of the reasons Zjarri was sanctioned with the interaction ban in the first place . This shows Zjarri has learned nothing from his interaction ban, nor understood the reasons for it.

• In his haste to compile this report, Zjarri included the same diff twice (the first two diffs in his report are identical), and it is from October, though he claims I'm not including October in the report but only November.

• In the above report, I'm thus counting 11 reverts by me, in the period of one month. That's approximately one every 3 days, hardly taking advantage of Zjarri's interaction ban on my part. If anything, I am reverting Zjarri less frequently these days than before he was sanctioned with the interaction ban: In July of 2010, I reverted ZR a total of 15 times (diffs omitted for brevity, though I can produce them on request). Similarly for previous months prior to July. If we look at the period of August 29-September 29, immediately prior to Zjarri's interaction ban, for example, I reverted Zjarri 9 times: , (partial rv of this ), (rv of this ), , (partial rv of this ), , (rv of this , though it is also an rv of several intermediate edits of other editors), (partial rv, removal of "of Albanian origin", which ZjarriRrethues had added previously ), . In other words, about the same frequency consistently. I am not reverting Zjarri more frequently these days compared to prior to his interaction ban, and am being extra careful to do so only when I feel it's absolutely necessary. This is because I knew he was itching to game his interaction ban to file yet another AE report against me for some time now (the diff from T. Canens follows a discussion between him and Zjarri in IRC).

• Regarding the reverts themselves, I stand by them, as I feel they are solidly grounded in wiki policy which is explained by me either in the edit summaries or in the article talkpage. These were reverts of edits I considered tendentious, using shoddy sources, or else "creative misinterpretation" of non-shoddy sources on the part of Zjarri.
  • : I actually reverted because I found "isolated mountain village", which was added by User:Alexikoua rather odd-sounding, particularly for the lede. I felt that the lede was stylistically better in its previous version, that is all.
  • W.W. Tarn is considered heavily outdated and thoroughly unreliable as a source, for obvious reasons, and to anyone with an even cursory familiarity with the subject.
  • : John Shea is yet another unreliable source, a Balkan polemicist with no academic credentials, again something well known to anyone familiar with the subject. Edits such as this and the above are thus either the result of either incompetence or tendentiousness. I admit I was quite annoyed when I reverted, and my removal of Mackenzie was probably a mistake. I have no problem whatsoever restoring Mackenzie, which seems reliable enough even though it is just a snippet. I will however not restore Shea under any circumstances and stand by that removal.
  • : Yet another instance of using a partisan source.
  • : Source falsification, the person is Turkish, as the name makes obvious.
  • : Completely off-topic addition. The number of Albanian migrants in Greece is never mentioned in irrelevant as far as Greater Albania is concerned, and is moreover far from unknown. There are plenty of estimates, some quite accurate, and Zjarri knows this full well, which is why I was annoyed in my talkpage posting.
  • : I felt Zjarri was clearly misinterpreting this source.
  • : Misuse of a source: Zjarri introduces a figure of 700,000 as if it's sourced to the source he provides, even though the figure comes from activist organizations, not the claimed source.
  • : Same here. He is either misunderstanding or misquoting the source.
  • : Shoddy sourcing: The Ukrainian Quarterly is not a reliable source for such a claim, nor is using a book's index as a source (the second source). That is not how we source things around here. As should by now be obvious, Zjarri has a history of backing his claims with shoddy sourcing, something with which I admit I have lost my patience after so many months of the same thing.
  • : Follows naturally from my previous rationale.
  • : Utterly inane, WP:LAME edit, as made clear by the discussion in the talkpage . Kostas Botsaris fought in the Greek War of Independence and was a member of the Greek Parliament for crying out loud. How can anyone not revert something like that when they see it?
  • : The NPOV and OR tags placed by Zjarri on this article have been removed many times, by many users, some of them not from the Balkans . My revert is the last in a long line of tag removals by other editors, I felt I was enforcing community consensus. The article is solidly sourced, and no valid rationale has been presented on the talkpage for the tags, only WP:IDONTLIKEIT type arguments. Yet, the tags are continuously re-added by Zjarri, even though there is zero community consensus for them , a clear case of long term edit-warring. It is interesting to note that ZjarriRrethues has something of an obsession with this article, having been at it since March of 2010, within a week of his joining wikipedia .
  • : I find the edit by Zjarri tendentious, and against the spirirt of WP:LEDE. We typically include in the lede things that attest to the notability of the article's subject, and this is not one of them. Arvanitic communities are quite common throughout Greece. Mind you, I have absolutely no problem with the content itself, I just don't feel that placement in the lede is warranted

To sum up, I only reverted Zjarri when I felt it was absolutely necessary and well-grounded in wiki policy. There is absolutely no gratuitous, spiteful reverting, or inappropariate taking advantage of his interaction ban on my part, nor is there going to be.

• Zjarri is omitting the month of October in his report, the first month of his interaction ban: This is not out of lazyness: I reverted him even fewer times in October than November, thus further weakening his case.

• A bit of background: Zjarri was sanctioned with a 3-month, single-sided interaction ban against me beginning September 30th, 2010. This was the result of a frivolous, non-actionable AE report filed by him against me, in which he made false claims and had crossed into WP:HOUND territory in his eagerness to get me sanctioned (at one point digging up diffs from 3+ years ago, my first in wikipedia). He has previously broken this interaction ban twice, getting sanctioned the first time and warned the second. Barely 3 weeks into his ban, Zjarri was already itching to have another go at me at AE, as evidenced here . This was quite soon after the imposition of his ban, during which period I barely had time to revert him at all. This shows this user never understood the reason behind his interaction ban, but merely saw it as another tool to try and get me sanctioned. He is now gaming the interaction ban to portray himself as a victim in the hope of getting me sanctioned. It's incredible, it's as if nothing's changed with this user. I can empathize with Zjarri that he is occasionally frustrated by his inability to revert me, but I feel this report is frivolous and hence a blockable violation of his interaction ban. Athenean (talk) 06:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Mkativerata

I can certainly live with having to discuss reverts on the talkpage more often, however, I prefer that it not be imposed as a "restriction" but rather on an honor system basis. As an indicator, I have generally abided by a voluntary 1R rule since September, even though the 1R restriction I was under expired two months ago. If it to be imposed as a restriction, I would ask that some sort of editing restriction against using shoddy sourcing by ZjarriRrethues be put into effect as well, as after all my admitted brusqueness was largely due to frustration at persistent tendentious editing by ZjarriRrethues, which has been going on for months now. By the way, by "frivolous" I meant non-actionable, as in the claims of this report do not add up, the (n+1)th such AE report by ZjarriRrethues. Athenean (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply to T. Canens

I see three new diffs , which I have now addressed. I stand by my actions and believe I was acting in the best interest of the encyclopedia.

Further comments

Incidentally, this brings up my total to 14 reverts of Zjarri in November, still not a significant increase compared to before his interaction ban, and nowhere near the vast majority of his edits on Greek-Albanian topics in November. The pattern here is the same as his previous report: A largely non-actionable report is filed, and when it looks like it is about to be dismissed, he digs deeper and deeper, playing the victim even more and making yet more false statements (I am not calling for him to be sanctioned for his articlespace edits), (I didn't revert him 15 times in November, and it's still not a "significant percentage" of his edits to Greek-Albanian topics), (Thimi Mitko lived in Greece), (he is not editing less frequently). This is exactly the kind of behavior that resulted in his interaction ban in the first place. Athenean (talk) 17:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Athenean

@Athenean: I have a question about one of your reverts. You explain this as saying Shea is an unreliable source. Why remove the material sourced to Mackenzie? There may be a good answer but it's a point specifically raised by the AE filer. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Answered here. --Mkativerata (talk) 07:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things concern me here. Having had a detailed look, Athenean's reverts appear generally to be justifiable, at least those diffs the bases of which can be understood by an outside observer unfamiliar with the conflict. But brusque edit summaries and talk page contributions aren't helping matters. I'd like to see fuller contemporaneous justifications for the reverts and perhaps a sensible editing restriction could deliver that (eg a requirement to post a 50-word justification for each revert on the relevant talk page). The removal of the Mackenzie-sourced material indicates a lack of care that could have been avoided had proper justification been given. On the other hand, I don't see any basis to think that Athenean has been hounding Zjarri or gaming the interaction ban, even in light of the admonition at the earlier AE.. --Mkativerata (talk) 07:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Awaiting Athenean's response to the diffs added in these edits. T. Canens (talk) 16:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The Four Deuces

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning The Four Deuces

User requesting enforcement

Martin (talk) 02:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

The Four Deuces (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned, Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. I am highly offended by User:The Four Deuces's edit comment "Reverse pro-fascist edits" when he made a blind revert of my good faith edits. By "pro-fascist" he must be referring to me as the sources Griffin is RS and Renton is actually a Marxist. Fascism is commonly associated with Nazism, and accusing me of being "pro-fascist" is tantamount to accusing me of harbouring Nazi sympathies. This is a egregious violation of WP:DIGWUREN

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Formally placed on notice
2. Warning by 2over0 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

If TFD had offered an apology as suggested by User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling then it might have been the end of the matter, but evidently he does not understand the offensiveness of his comment. Instead he offers an unapologetic "I do not refer to editors, only to edits." Edits do not happen in a vacuum, editors make edits, and he states himself "Some edits present a POV, which this one obviously does", in other words I hold a pro-fascist viewpoint. Not only does this remain deeply offensive but this is disruptive to any good faith attempt to edit an already difficult article in a neutral fashion, as I have attempted to do. As TFD appears to be unapologetic it is highly likey he will continue to characterise anyone he disagrees with as harbouring pro-fascist sympathies. This is unacceptable. --Martin (talk) 04:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning The Four Deuces

Statement by The Four Deuces

I do not refer to editors, only to edits. Some edits present a POV, which this one obviously does. Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has said I must be referring to him. I will post a note on the article talk page so that other editors familiar with the article may comment. TFD (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Part of what I reversed began, "Fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s...." and is sourced to Renton. But what Renton actually wrote was " has argued that fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s and 1890s". He then writes that Sternhell and others "are then free to emphasize what they perceive to be the essentially non-destructive nature of fascism. The historians suggest that it is time to rescue fascist Italy from stigma.... hey fail to generate a non-fascist understanding of fascism. Their readers are led to the conclusion that the fascist view of itself is the most important factor in the definition of the ideology." The rest of what I reversed represents "the fascist view of itself" which was inserted into the article as factual rather than as an opinion. TFD (talk) 11:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning The Four Deuces

TFD is a frequent thorn in my side, including filing procedural actions against me. Indeed, that's why I noticed this. However, I do try to be fair. Given that I have not read the policy involved that may require a block, would it be acceptable to allow an admin to remove the history comment and extract a promise that TFD will not do something like this again? Everyone's always trying to block others. TFD got me banned for a few days. Don't we have better things to do? In my opinion, one history comment like the present one does not look to me, not having read the policy, to be a reason to block someone. Would Martin accept an apology and the administrative removal of the history comment in exchange for dropping the block request? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Martintg failed the mention that the article in question is Fascism. I agree with TFD that the edit reverted presented a positive point-of-view on the topic of the article. I do not know if that alone would have been reason enough to revert them. However, Martintg himself seems to be saying that Misplaced Pages should favor an anti-fascist POV, lest it be accused of "harbouring Nazi sympathies". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The edit summary may not have used the best form of words, but in the context of the article it is no major issue. The editor raising this against a three year old Arbcom ruling seems a little over sensitive. I've seen far worse handled on the talk page without running to enforcement. Further given this block history its obvious that the filing editor is no stranger to controversy; The lady doth protest too much, methinks. --Snowded 04:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

'Fascism is commonly associated with Nazism, and accusing me of being "pro-fascist" is tantamount to accusing me of harbouring Nazi sympathies.' Really? Can I suggest that anyone involving themselves in topics of this kind should really be aware of the distinctive features of Fascism and Naziism, and not automatically assume they are one and the same? Even though I often agree with TFD, I still find him a little awkward sometimes, but then I'm sure he feels the same about me. I'm sure his political opponents have stronger views, but we are discussing politics here, not Pokomon characters, so maybe a little less feigned 'sensitivity' might be in order? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I think in cases like these, if someone takes offence (and it was certainly a careless use of words, regardless of the article topic), then an apology for having caused inadvertent offence is entirely in order, and no one loses face. I keep seeing cases on this page where apologising - even when it can be understood that nothing bad was intended - seems to be a phenomenal strain for people. The thing is, it can serve really well to improve the standing of the editor and the overall editing atmosphere.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, TFD has a habit of doing this sort of thing repeatedly. He regularly ascribes views to those that disagree with him that they do not possess. He more or less accuses them of having extremist or fringe or worse (as in this case) views, which is completely unsupported by, well, anything. Here is a recent example . I asked him to redact it and explained that no, I do not have extremist political views (I resent the fact that I even have to say this) but he did not redact the edits. There are also other instances, some older, like this one where he's making up some stuff about "far-right Russian bias" (he did redact that one after being told to do so). There's also other examples but honestly, I don't have time atm to go digging for more diffs. These should be enough to establish evidence of a pattern. It also shows that TFD's claim that I do not refer to editors, only to edits is generally false.

And seriously, calling edits based on the work of a Marxist historian, Dave Renton, "pro-fascist" just takes the cake.

Also, regardless of what the distinctions between Nazis or Fascism are, and what the subject of the article is, calling another editor's edits "pro-fascist" is simply insulting. No way to weasel out of that one. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

But socialist is not the same as Marxist, let alone fascist, except perhaps on Misplaced Pages. Let me see: Renton said that socialism and nationalism were merged to produce fascism, ergo he is pro-fascist? His book is published by Pluto Press. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

On its face, the edit summary states that the edits were "pro-fascist." Using such strong language in an edit summary is extraordinarily ill-advised, to say the least. TFD was well aware of the likelihood that such an edit summary woul;d be brought here - he is a regular at making complaints about others on this and other noticeboards. Collect (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning The Four Deuces

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