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Note to self

You risk getting into trouble whenever you forget this.

Don't do that: Edit articles!

Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

You cantankerous old fool, this is what happens when you forget:

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.

New York churches

Thanks so much for your help so far. You might want to have a look at Commons:Category:Unidentified churches in Manhattan, New York City. These are the remaining ones that I consider basically unidentified. Some even have a church name, denomination, or even a street name from NYPL (though we've seen already that at least 2% of those have been inaccurate), but remain basically unidentified. (I wouldn't consider a church really to be identified until we have at least most of denomination, pretty precise location, approximate date of construction, whether it is extant and if it isn't then when it was destroyed, etc.) For some of these where I have guesses, I've made remarks on their respective talk pages. Thanks in advance for any help. - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll do what I can. I looked over the images and nothing popped out at me as something I was immediately certain about, so I'm going to have to hit the books & the net and see what I can find. Since I won't be able to do that at one sitting, what I think will be easiest is if I just leave notes here as they come up. If I find something significant, I'll ping you, but otherwise maybe just check back occasionally to see how I'm doing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I think I've now blown my wad on these, at 2 finds and a probable. Nothing else I've looked into has panned out. I'll keep the remainder in the back of my mind in case something pops up serendipitiously (?) while I'm investigating something else. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I've identified two three four more churches, thanks to my purchase of From Abyssinian to Zion by David W. Dunlap. (Actually, it was a belated birthday gift from my father-in law: he paid the bill, but I picked it out.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Notes

last updated: 10:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

• Interior of a Church – can't find anything

• Presbyterian Church – can't find anything
  • Looks like it's on a street rather than an avenue, in a residential neighborhood
  • Possibly a synagogue?
  • Doesn't seem to match any images in Dunlap, which, however, does not cover still-extant church building no longer used as churches

• Stereoscopic views of churches and religious orgs in NYC – can't find anything
  • A crop of the image shows Christ on the cross to the left of the altar, and what may be a portrait of Mary to the right, so I'll once again posit that this is a Catholic church.

• Not sure – Interior of St. Michael Church/St. Michael's Church, interior –
  • AIA Guide says of St. Michael's Episcopal Church at 225 West 99th St (built 1891, Robert W. Gibson, arch) that "Inside are mosaics and Tiffany glass". Not quite sure if that fits these images or not.
    • opinion - the degree of ornamentation would seem to make it more likely to be a Catholic church
    • looking more closely at the images, I'd say definitiely Catholic because of the depictions of Christ on the cross behind the altar; looks like a large space too, almost cathedral-like
    • The description in our article on this church makes it unlikely to be the church pictured
  • this NYPL image shows a large St. Michael's Church on the NW corner of 9th Avenue & 31st Street
    • this source is primarily about the church's organ, but does say:
      • it's Roman Catholic
      • the church was originally on West 32nd St (probably full-block to 31st) but was moved to 34th Street because of the building of Penn Station in 1906
      • the church burned in 1892, while at 31st/32nd
  • this source says:
    • founded in 1857
    • from 1861-68 had a gothic church on W 31st
    • that church burned down in 1892
    • new church was built on same lot, on 32nd St side
    • church was numbered, disassembled and re-assembled on 34th St for building of Penn Station
  • the photo gallery on the website of the current church show nothing like what's depicted in the two images in question
  • Tentative conclusion: The church pictured is probably the interior of the St. Michael's R.C. Church on West 31st Street at Ninth Avenue, built in 1861-1868 and burned down in 1892. (It could also be the interior of the new church before it was moved in 1906, but that's less likely, since, given the effort they put into moving the exterior as is, they would almost certainly have done the same to such a lavish interior.) (Sources: , )
    • I've added this information to the four images in question, but have left them in the "unidentified" category.

•  Done – 42nd St. & 5th Ave – not extant;
  • This is St. Bartholomew's Church at 346 Madison Avenue at East 44th Street in Manhattan, New York City, which was designed by James Renwick Jr. in the Lombardic style and was built from 1872-1876. It featured a portal by Stanford White inspired by the abbey of Saint-Gilles-du-Gard in Provence which commemorated Cornelius Vanderbilt, whose son, William H. Vanderbilt, sold the site to the church. (Source: From Abyssinian to Zion (2004))

•  Done – 34th St., Church bet. 8th and 9th Ave – nothing extant on that block, although I was curious about the West Side Jewish Center synagogue, but the doors & windows are wrong; nothing in AIA guide
  • According to Dunlap, the Dutch Reformed Church at 307 West 34th Street, built in 1860, dissolved 1920.

•  Done – Chelsea Church, 32nd St. – can't find anything
  • this source says there was a St. James Church founded at the Odd Fellows Hall on West 32nd Street, which then moved to 211 West 32nd St, but was razed for Penn Station.
  • same source says there was a North Presbyterian Church on West 32nd, also razed for Penn Station
  • No indication yet which of these two churches is the best candidate for the Greek Revival building pictured
    • A photo in Dunlap, David W. From Abyssinian to Zion (2004) indicates that the church pictured is not the North Presbyterian Church
  • According to David W. Dunlap's From Abysinian to Zion (2004), this is not a church in Chelsea on 32nd Street, but St. Philip's Church at 305 Mulberry Street, which was the third home of the oldest black Episcopal parish in New York. The church moved there in 1857; it had previously been located at two churches on Centre Street, one of which had been sacked in 1834. The building pictured had previously been the Mulberry Methodist Episcopal Church. St. Phillip's left in 1886 to go to the West Twenty-fifth Street Unied Presbyterian Church at 161 West 25th. It is currently located at 204 W 134th Street. The Mulberry Street building is no longer extant.

•  Done – 42nd Street, looking from near the Reservoir – not extant;
  • Looking at a picture in Dunlap, David W. From Abyssinian to Zion (2004), this is West Presbyterian Church, built in 1862

•  Done – Mariner's Church, Madison St. –
  • building next to it on right appears to be #70; #70 Madison St is now a parking lot and the buildings around it are all tenements;
  • this NY Times article says it was on the Sw corner of Madison & Catherine, founded in 1820 by NY Port Society, and was sold in 1914 to be torn down for a tenement;
  • this indicates it was Methodist Episcopal;
  • this says the church had an organ and the building was originally the Fourth Free Presbyterian Church
    • dates here -- 1854-1910 -- are a bit at odds with the Times article, but can be harmonized (warning - OR):
      • unknown date: church built as 4th Free Presbyterian
      • 1820 - NY Port Society founds Mariners Church
      • 1854 - Mariners Church moves into building
      • 1910 - Mariners Church stops operating in that building
      • 1914 - building sold
  • 1910 image here, caption says church was founded in 1818
  • this says Mariners Church at 46 Catherine (which is indeed at the corner of Madison St.) was built in 1854
  • this source seems to clear up the timeline:
    • 1819 - NY Port Society organized
    • 1820 - opens Mariners Church on Roosevelt St.
    • 1836 - Fourth Free Presbyterian Church built
    • 1854 - NYPS acquires 4th Free Presbyterian Church building
  • Conclusion: This church building at 46 Catherine Street at the corner of Madison Street in lower Manhattan, New York City was constructed in 1836 as the Fourth Free Presbyterian Church, and was taken over by the Mariners Church in 1854. The Mariners Church (Methodist Episcopal) was founded by the Society for Promoting the Gospel Among Seamen in the Port of New York – colloquially known as the New York Port Society – in 1820. The building was sold in 1914, and torn down to make way for a six-story tenement. (Sources: , , )

Wow. Good sleuthing. - Jmabel | Talk 17:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try to get to more tonight. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

•  Done – The Rectory, with south-west corner of the Church –
  • I'm fairly certain this is the rectory of St. George's Episcopal Church on Stuyvesant Square. Compare to this Bing bird's eye view image. There also a Google street view for comparison as well, but the domain is blacklisted for some reason: you can see it at http://XXX.gl/maps/zkvg, when you replace "XXX" with "goo". I can go over to Stuyvesant Square tomorrow (Monday 28th) and confirm this.
  • Definitely this rectory, although I'm not sure any of the photos I took (I'll post one later) will show it clearly, because of the trees, the children's jungle gym in the front yard, and the light.
  • The best of my shots is here.
  • Conclusion: This is the Rectory of St. George's Episcopal Church on Stuyvesant Square in Manhattan, New York City, located at 209 West 16th Street, directly behind the church. Now known as "Henry Hill Pierce House", the rectory was built in the early 1850's and was designed by Leopold Eidlitz, the architect who designed the interior of the church, and who supervised the church's reconstruction when it was gutted by fire in 1865. (Sources: White, Norval & Willensky, Elliot (2000). AIA Guide to New York City (4th ed.). New York: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0-8129-3107-5., p.209; New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission; Dolkart, Andrew S.; Postal, Matthew A. (2009). Postal, Matthew A. (ed.). Guide to New York City Landmarks (4th ed.). New York: John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-0-470-28963-1., pp.85-86)
    • Labelled the images and moved them out of unidentified category

Leftover "to do" notes

• Daniel D. Badger
  • integrate material from this page into the article
  • add "D.D. Badger & Co."
  • NYT obit
• Chelsea, New York City
  • add material from the NYCLPC Lamartine Place Designation Report into article
  • also check Chelsea Historic District report for anything left out

Locust Manor, Queens

I had received a notice that someone had prod'ed the article for Locust Manor, Queens and as I was about to start getting down to work I saw that you had taken the time and effort to expand and reference the article. Well done and much appreciated. Alansohn (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

My pleasure, thank you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix on ANI

I don't vote often, so didn't realize I should've posted as "as nom". Thanks so much for the fix!--Gnowor_C 00:07, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a problem, glad to help. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:10, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Merry, merry

Many thanks, my friend, and my best wishes in return to you! Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Caucasian Black Cock

removed section

hi im sorry about that i didnt mean to remove your explanation is there any way it could have happened by accident? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrsSunDoesntShine (talk • contribs) 15:31, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Grease car race LA river.jpg

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Specific and detailed FUR provided for Los Angeles River Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Leon Askin as Gen Burkhalter.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Leon Askin as Gen Burkhalter.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

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Happy, happy

Cuba, eh? Sounds good! Enjoy, and "Happy New Year" to you as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:32, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Please keep an eye on my edits

Hi, Beyond My Ken,

I see you recently commented in an ANI thread about a puppet of a site-banned user and some possible members of his sock drawer or meat locker. I'm trying to keep track of how to edit helpfully when the editing environment is that full of disruption, and I'd be glad to hear your advice. I have hoped to help the project improve by keeping source lists that all wikipedians can use to improve articles. After you peruse those, I would appreciate hearing from you your suggestions of sources on intelligence or suggestions of sources on race so that all of us can use better sources as we attempt to improve Misplaced Pages articles. In view of your long experience on the project, I would appreciate you keeping an eye on my edits to make sure that I am working collaboratively with conscientious editors here. I will take care to consider carefully any advice you have for me about editing on contentious topics. Wishing you all the best in a happy new year. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by WeijiBaikeBianj (talk • contribs) 13:06, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I will be happy to do what I can, keeping in mind that that might not be a lot. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Counter-insurgency

Please explain. It is a spelling difference and should be documented. Marcus Qwertyus 07:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I see you didn't bother to wait for an answer. The link is unnecessary, since there is no "spelling difference", simply a minor difference in orthography. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:19, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I've coverted your inline wikilink to a ref, so that you can get your note in, but it doesn't unnecessarily intetrrupt the folow of he article for the reader. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I was hoping to use this at Wiktionary at wikt:Sam Spade. We only use Commons content. Can this be uploaded to Commons, given its fair-use rationale? DCDuring (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid not. Commons won't take non-free fair-use images. Sorry. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

time to sort out the icesave / debt repayment / loan agreement dispute finally

hey there, this is just a bulk message inviting you to re-think the topic as was discussed more than 6 months ago and is still unresolved. feel free to jump here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Icelandic_debt_repayment_referendum,_2010#Time_to_settle_the_title_dispute.3F and help figure out how we can end this conclusively this time. --Lotsofmagnets (talk) 02:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Kinda busy in RL, but I'll be able to take a look next week, if the discussion is still going on then. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of HIV-positive people

Could I invite you to revisit this debate and express an opinion on my argument there? It seems to be a relevant point that hadn't yet been raised and if you had a convincing rebuttal it would be likely to change my vote. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Spacing Is Never Needed

Do not add spacing.199.126.224.245 (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Spacing, alas, is sometimes needed, and I will continue to add it when it is necessary to make an article easier for the reader to use.

Might I suggest that the next time you plan to drop a comment on another editor's talk page, you lose the premptory tone and deal with them as a colleague and not as an idiot? Please see WP:CIVIL for our policies regarding civility. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Spacing is never needed because no other articles has it. They are periodically removed. Also, there is no definition of how much space is required for a reader to read a specific excerpt better. Also, different computers will render areas of an article differently.199.126.224.245 (talk) 11:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I am aware of these things, and I frequently check the article I work on with a number of browsers. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Refimprove tags

I generally attempt to add tags to brief unreferenced statements, but when there are entire sections that either had no references or relied on an amount not appropriate for their size, and multiples of these, I add {{Refimprove}} tags to them, and I usually try to make sure that the references already provided cannot suffice before doing this. I would say an alarming number of articles actually need these, including Citizen Kane and William Randolph Hearst. Please look at the references provided before removing the tags. I am not perfect and a few articles I added the tag to I do not doubt I should have looked at closer, but in these articles' cases, I think the tag is appropriate, particularly in the case of William Randolph Hearst. Thank you,
—AOC25 (talk) 23:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Your judgment on this is very poor, you've added ref improve tags on practially every article you've edited. I suggest you stop this practice before it gets you into trouble. Misplaced Pages is not helped by having all its articles tagged as needing additional referencing, especially when it is not the case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Flat Rock

hi there,

thank you very much. Gryffindor (talk) 02:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:56, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: Apology

Thanks for the apology, but the change of my signature is only temporary, until see if it's OK or not which with that "Resolved" just left me with a big I don't now. With my signature I, in any way, do not intend to be disruptive. I put it for the next reasons:

• a) The Trademark symbol (™) article states "Use of this symbol does not mean that the trademark has been registered as registered trademarks (®), this in any sense make "Tbhotch" a registred trademark as simple as I have no product or company to trademark.
• b) The ™ redirect to my talkpage, with this T.M. I intended to give a double-meaning with "Talk Me".
• c) The ©, as above, redirect to my contributions, and as above, I tried to give the double-meaning of "Contributions".
• d) Misplaced Pages:Signatures in nowhere states that the use of legal symbols (©, ®, ™ and ℗) is forbidden, it ban images only such © image or ® logo.
• e) My account is not used to promote a company, in which UAA and ANI would be involved, and as it was stated at ANI, my username is not "Tbhotch®" nor "Tbhotch™".
• f) As my attribution template indicates "It can be used throughout the Wikimedia Foundation and its projects without my permission", I am not asking/requesting/obligating to all users to 1) ask me permission for say my username, 2) that each time "Tbhotch" is mentioned a "Tbhotch™" must be used, such as all companies do with their products.

As you can see, I commented you in a polite way that my signature does not hurts the encyclopedia nor the comunity, in any way, just those symbols are used for decorative purposes. Tbhotch and C. 01:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

White

Respectfully, I have to disagree. I don't know if you wrote the original passage, but grammatically, the subject of the sentence is "career," and you can surely see that "career"did not become the architect's assistant. It may superficially sound o.k., but it won't fly. Sorry.

By the way, thanks for fixing the caption. My phone wouldn't handle the volume of data to let me edit. Ragityman (talk) 05:48, 15 January 2011 (UTC)