Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:25, 23 February 2006

Biased Article

This does not appear to be a balanced Encyclopaedia entry but rather a misuse of Misplaced Pages to perform a character assissination of an individual thus undermining the value of the tool. A balanced entry should reference or represent, without obvious bias, both viewpoints where opinions may differ and should present a substantive overview of the life and work of the subject. If I bought an encyclopaedia that contained entries written in this way I would return it for a refund. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.117.254.250 (talk • contribs) 19:36, February 7, 2006.

Since Misplaced Pages is a free encyclopaedia, you can have your money back and welcome to it. Do feel free to mention on this page precisely what the nature is of the supposed bias: as it stands it appears to me to accurately reflect the orthodox view that the man is a fraud and a charlatan. Per WP:NPOV that is exactly as it should be. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / 23:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This guy is in the journalism program at Carleton University in Ottawa, you'd think he'd bring good prose to the table. Instead it looks like he'll just be bringing good trolls. Sigh David D. (Talk) 00:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Article is very POV--Wasabe3543 16:54, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree, and rewrote it a bit, hopefully that will help. --Fastfission 23:52, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Unbalanced Article

This does not appear to be a balanced Encyclopaedia entry but rather a misuse of Misplaced Pages to perform a character assissination of an individual thus undermining the value of the tool. A balanced entry should reference or represent, without obvious bias, both viewpoints where opinions may differ and should present a substantive overview of the life and work of the subject. If I bought an encyclopaedia that contained entries written in this way I would return it for a refund.

Patriot Universtity

Patriot University has been widely acknowledged as a diploma mill (or degree mill), due to unreasonably easy graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and suspect tuition costs, among other issues.

What is the basis for this statement? Widely acknowledged by whom?

Every hit for "Patriot University" on Google comes up with a statement about it being a diploma mill, with the exception of its own website and websites specializing in other unaccredited universities. That being the case, can you provide any reason to not think that Patriot University is widely acknowledged to be a diploma mill? Their own website has an entertaining bit about how it's not that they couldn't be accredited, they just don't want to be -- after all, it just serves to "boost the reputation" of the universities in question! (I don't want to be in your club anyway, nyah nyah). That being said, I do understand that there are a number of unaccredited religious universities which have quality curricula (there was a good article in the Chronicle of Higher Education on this about a month ago), however there seems to be no evidence that PU is one of them. Hovind's own defense of his degree is (not surprisingly) very weak, especially when put up against the opposing evidence. (see, e.g. ) --Fastfission 02:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't think of any reason that Patriot University is not widely considered a diploma mill, but the burden of proof on such matters rests on those who make such claims. That being said, I am convinced that the university could accurately be described as a "diploma mill." But it seems that most of the websites referring to the university as a "diploma mill" are explicitly anti-creationist sites. This claim would have better support if either 1) websites with no explicit position on the creation/evolution debate which make the claim could be pointed out; 2) the term "diploma mill" were substituted with a not-so-loaded phrase; or 3) the claim were changed to something like "Patriot University is widely acknowledged by opponents of Kent Hovind to be a 'diploma mill.'

I'm wary about softening this up too much (given the fact that there seem to be no great defenders of Patriot University except Hovind himself, and even he just equivocates, I'm not sure what factual ground that puts on on), I've re-arranged the sentences a bit, and put a link to PU's own statement on accreditation:

Critics of Hovind have charged that Patriot University is a diploma mill (or degree mill), as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme, among other issues. The university has varied its policies over the years, and no longer offers the Ph.D. Hovind received. However, their current policies allow students to attain bachelor's degrees, master's degrees and even "Doctor of Ministry" degrees in months, rather than years, for less than $40 per month (the university offers a monthly fee, unlike most universities, which only charge per-credit fees). The University itself has claimed that it simply does not "choose" to be accredited.

How about that? --Fastfission 05:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that sums it up.

By the way, I really like the "No!" responses on the university's accreditation page.

I am a graduate of Patriot University. The school was renamed recently to Patriot Bible University to better refelect its mission of serving as an independent Bible College. I updated the wiki page to reflect the new name. I hold a Bachelor of Biblical Studies degree from Patriot (received in August 2004). I did have to do extensive work to get this degree. Unlike "diploma mills" where you just send in money and a CV to get your degree, Patriot Bible University is a *real* school. It is indeed distance education based, but I have several times personally visited the school's offices and seen their well run operation. I have visited and spoken with the staff, registrar and dean on many occasions both in person and via the phone. I wouldn't have spent money on tuition and my time completing my degree program if I wasn't satisfied that both the school and my degree were 100% legal and above board. I learned a lot from the many classes I took via distance learning from Patriot University. They are a small college and only graduate about 50 to 80 degree students per year, so it is unlikely that you would have heard from any graduates before. You can check out the archived PDF format issues of the school magazine, called the Patriot's Progress on their web site for the last year or so and see the names and degree awared to the graduates each month in the back of the school's magazine. I am going to attend their annual graduation commencement this June 1st. I have been told that there will be 17 people attending the commencement ceremony in person who received their degrees from Patriot Bible University this past year. If it were truly a "diploma mill" as some of Kurt Hovind's critics claim, they would likley "be minting" tens of thousands of degrees per year and advertising them for sale for a fixed price in magazines and on the Internet. Issuing less than a hundred earned degrees a year hardly would be worth it for a "diploma mill" which would normally operate on high volume.

I can understand why some might try to knock the school, but it is a real religious school with very sincere people running it. It has been in operation for about 30 years here, and was formerly a Bible school run from inside a local church. Now they have moved to Del Norte, Colorado into their own administrative building and are growing, but their standards are still quite high. You can't "buy a degree" from Patriot. I dare you to go ahead and call them and try. They will require coursework to be completed, the amount of classes and credits needed will vary on your existing college credit transfer hours, etc. See their degree requirements and course descriptions on their site. Let me assure you that their coursework is real and requires reading one or more study texts per course and completing a written test covering the subject book(s) for that course. Then you have to submit your written tests and wait to receive it back graded. This is a real school with real books and tests. They are economical, but since when is that a crime? If you want a Christian education and can't afford to travel to a tradional Bible College, Patriot is well worth it in my opinion. I have also added a line to the wiki that Patriot is fully approved by the state of Colorado to operate their Bible College and also is approved tp issue legal religious degrees by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission. I can't spreak for Kent Hovind, as I don't know the man, but judging a school based on one of their graduates is really insane if you ask me. What if a serial killer went to Harvard? Would you blame the school for his/her actions and attack it? I think not. Suffice it to say that Patriot in an independent, non-traditional religious college that offers an affordable Bible based education via distance education. Please drop the "degree mills" and "diploma mills" attacks against Patriot Bible University as they are not true according to the State of Colorado's own web site defining "diploma mills". The state shows Patriot as an approved school to issue degrees, and not as a "diploma mill". In fact they list it as a legitimate school, so unless you can argure with our state's higher education licensing commission, please don't badmouth Patriot. That only causes doubt upon my degree (and others with validly earned Patriot degrees). Thank you. --Ministry 23:42, 21 Apr 2005 (MDT)

A serial killer did graduate from Harvard. As his fellow alumnus, I'll gladly trade you the ensuing imprint of Theodore Kaczynski on my alma mater, for the reciprocal discredit imparted by Kent Hovind upon Patriot University, and vice versa. Larvatus 09:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

• • The real issue here is what statements we can verify and what statements we have to just attribute. At the moment all criticisms of it being a diploma mill are properly attributed to his critics and Patriot's own stated policies are attributed to them. On Misplaced Pages, all of our sources must be attributed to whomever is giving them, and we have a policy against original research, which means we can't just go on your personal testimony on it. If you find a good source which says what you have said about, I'd be more than happy to include a line and link to it. However the line about critics calling it a diploma mill must stay, because it is accurate: critics do call it a diploma mill. Such is a statement about what critics say, not about what the school actually is-- surely you can see the difference. Being licensed by a state to operate is not the same thing as being accredited for your educational standards. It simply means that the school meets a bare minimum in business practices but even those requirements can vary from state to state. --Fastfission 14:54, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let us not forget (or at least begin to realize) that, diploma mill or not, he still taught high school math and science for 15 years. He also has a PhD in education. I'm not certain where he got this PhD from, but I'm sure it wasn't Patriot. That should be worth something to his credit.--JEmfinger 07:50, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • Um, he claims he got an MA and PhD from Patriot. And depending on what state you are in, the requirements for teaching high school subjects are not necessarily rigorous (often if you have a BA in ANY subject you can teach). Anyway, the entire education question is just whether or not he misrepresents himself about his educational credentials, not whether he can do basic math or science (the fact that he often can't is born out by his arguments, it is not necessary to point to his phoney diploma for that). --Fastfission 14:54, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A lot of statements are biased (I am not in favor, nor against mr Hovind.). If researched correctly, one can find evidence that mr. Hovind has given proof of his dissertation and that some people have studied his dissertation after having been sent a copy with consent of mr. Hovind. Therefore, biased sentences in 'Education' should be deleted.

"If researched correctly" -- please provide some evidence of this "correct research." We're not just going to take your word at it. The one person who has claimed to see it was given it by the University, apparently, but they no longer provide it. --Fastfission 15:19, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The critic you cited, was the same one who claims that the copy of the dissertation was given with Hovind's permission. Therefore, the claims you make in 'Education' are proven wrong by the same critic you cited.

After reading this article, I can only conclude that Misplaced Pages is not an encyclopedia, but the mouthpiece of some lobby.

Well then, you conclude incorrectly. Such is life. --Fastfission 17:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, Kent Hovind is nothing more than a tool who continually and knowingly spreads misinformation. -- Shawn M. O'Hare 11:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Kent Hovind claims to have an IQ of 160. That right there proves he is no dummy. http://www.uwf.edu/tprewitt/rebuttal1.htm

You might want to look up what "proof" usually means. Come on, surely you're smarter than you appear. --Fastfission 02:48, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Hovind said his IQ is 160; I was just repeating what he said. Assuming he is telling the truth, that means he is pretty intelligent, as a 160 IQ is very high. I've seen plenty of debates where he has gone up against 1 or or more opponents (with PhDs and degrees you would respect) and won. In any event, the Wiki entry for Hovind is terribly one-sided and not NPOV. I thought that was against Wiki-standards. Also, there is no reason to insult me personally.

If someone--not just Kent Hovind but anyone--has a 160 IQ, that would be indeed very high, but it doesn't mean that they can't be wrong. I imagine that he probably has gone up against opponents in debate and won, but debates aren't what science is about. Science is not and should not be a zero-sum game where one person is a winner and another a loser. Debates, such as the ones Hovind engages in, have a tendency to give poor representations of scientific truth, because the perceived truth can fluctuate based on personal charisma and oratory skills. --Justin Hirsh

Yes, but I think that it more likely, given his track record, that he is fibbing. Dunc|☺ 20:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As a point of interest: Is discrediting Patriot university (which I'm not saying this article does) in order to somehow discredit Hovind's arguments not similar to the argument that his intelligence is high, therefore he must have *something* right? I'm not certain if opinion posts such as the one I'm typing right now is welcome here, but the tack I described above sounds like a Logical Fallacy (ad hominem, perhaps?). --The Extremist 15:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Changes in "Hovind and other creationists" section

Changes in "Hovind and other creationists" section

I removed the following three sentences from this section.

• "From a purely scientific standpoint, those dates are ultimately unknown to man at this point in history...the debate continues." I understood this sentence to say the age of the earth has not been scientifically determined.

• "One would be hard pressed to find creationist organizations that fully agree on all points." The first paragraph ("many creationists disagree on many points") said this already.

• "Nevertheless it should be noted that there are many scientists siding with both creation and evolution who consider many of Hovinds arguments to be either plausable, theoretically improvable, debatable or false." I.e. there are many people who either agree or disagree with him; adds no information. Perhaps the original meaning was that there are scientists who find his arguments plausable and creationists who find his arguments debatable/false. Alternatively the word plausable should just be removed.

syndicate 19:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Dissertation?

Although Patriot University will not provide copies of Kent Hovind's dissertation, it is on file and available for viewing at the National Center for Science Education. The NCSE is located in Oakland, California. Incidentally, they will not allow it to be copied and they will not send copies to anyone.

Someone just added this to the page. Can anyone verify it? There doesn't seem to be anything on the NCSE web page substantiating it and no evidence seems to have been presented. TheIncredibleEdibleOompaLoompa 17:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

And even if true, it shouldn't be surprising; it's a copyrighted work, and like any other shouldn't be freely distributed or copied. Unless something more interesting or relevant can be said here, the text should be deleted.

• For what it's worth Patriot University isn't an accredited institution, so whether Kent Hovind actually did or did not complete his dissertation there is moot. Either way he's not a "real" PhD. --Cyde Weys _talk 23:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ali G Incident

I'm not sure what purpose this serves. It doesn't give any factual information except that Hovind is nervous when being made fun of. Is this necessary? I've left it for now but without a good reason to include it I'll delete it later on. --Davril2020 15:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

There are excellent reasons to include the Ali G incident in this article. For one thing, it is a factual record of an outcome of controversialism precipitated by Hovind, only to be turned against him. More importantly, it shows that Hovind is incapable of standing his grounde even on the sophistical bases of ad hominem argumentation against credibly established and factually attested scientific theories. Larvatus 22:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC) larvatus

Is it worth mentioning that Ali G is cousin of the scientist Simon Baron-Cohen, who may have influenced his choice of target? Joe D (t) 06:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's interesting, but not relevant for this article. Hovind has been in countless debates and on all kinds of radio shows and such. He has had far more interesting and stimulating experiences than this one. To cite this one like it's something special is a bit of a stretch. I'm guessing it was added as an attempt to embarrass Hovind. In reality, the Hovind quotes are quite ordinary for him and Ali G comes off as crude/offensive. --Jason Gastrich 06:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Ali G is crude and offensive. That is the point of his show. David D. (Talk) 07:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Please abstain from corrupting the factual transcript of exchanges between Kent Hovind and Ali G. Your judgment of what constitutes unnecessary color is no excuse for contaminating a straightforward account of the event at issue with your own editorial discretion. Larvatus 18:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

At the least the reference to the 'floater' is entirely unnecessary. If you wish to include an example of Hovind's debating style and errors during debates, why not draw on a number of sources? It seems odd indeed to base this entirely on the act of a comedian, who has mocked people across the social and political spectrum in this fashion. Should we cross-reference every incident where Ali G has mocked a serious figure and made their views look foolish? --Davril2020 18:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The mention of the floater was essential to demonstrating that the laddie doth protest too much. The rhetoric is par for the course. Larvatus 18:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

It is basicly pointless. it serves no factual stuff. and Ali g is just a guy that does stupid stuff to make fun of people during interviews. btw, anyone know what episode number this is. like Season 1 - Episode ?

The thing thats kinda funny is that when hovind was called to do the interview he had absolutly no idea who Ali G was. nor had he ever heard of his show. so he was tricked into getting on by being told that he was going to debate 5 evolutionists.

But that's of little consequence, either, since nobody coersed him to say what he said in the show. But either way, this section is completely pointless. To catch people off guard is precisely what Ali G does, and is the reason why his show exists. As mentioned above, Ali G has done it to plenty of people, well-respected and authoratative folks and otherwise. Having that section there informs the reader nothing about Hovind, other than that he's liable to be duped by Ali G. And excuse me while I uncloset my POV here, but Hovind has plenty of quotes that reveals his sophistry without needing Ali G's provocation. Uly 19:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Larvatus' Color Commentary

The following comments are inappropriate for an encyclopedic article. They are considered color commentary.

"At that point, Ali G was able to cast doubt on Hovind's objections to evolution by asking his guest:"

"In response to Hovind's nervous objections to his method of proof,"

"Hovind's protestations of fecal innocence were unavailing."

These things read like a gossip column and need to be removed, immediately. I took some time and wrote an nPOV contribution, but he kept reverting it completely in favor of his own. --Jason Gastrich 21:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Your wish is my command. "Just the facts, Ma'am." Larvatus 21:47, 18 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

As for your latest edit, I never said the things above were offensive. I said they weren't encyclopedic. Your latest edit is a step in the right direction, but hasn't went far enough to make the entry read professionally instead of child-like. --Jason Gastrich 22:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned it up some more. Are there any quotes from Hovind in response to the whole interview. Did he find it funny once he relaised that AliG is a hoax interviewer? David D. (Talk) 22:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks good. I'm glad you want this section to maintain Wiki's high standards. I don't have any more details about the interview. I found the transcript I put in the reference section, though. --Jason Gastrich 22:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I maintain that the reference to a 'floater' is childish. Really, Ali G does this to every single guest he comes across; should we edit the biography of every major figure he has interviewed in order to include a reference to this fact? Someone keeps deleting/editting it as it stands. It's clearly generating a lot of bad feeling and is very childish. I'll say again; why can we not edit together a collection of statements on/by Hovind, from a number of sources, including a mention that he was interviewed by Ali G with an external link to a site detailing the encounter? It would then be balanced, and useful as a reference source. Do you object to that Larvatus? --Davril2020 00:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The point that needs to be made is that Ali G trumped the creationist argument and humiliated its proponent on the same ad hominem grounds that the latter relied upon for making his case against evolution. More generally, the Ali G interview deserves to be commemorated herein as Kent Hovind's most significant exposure to popular culture, and vice versa. Larvatus 01:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

This point wasn't made. I don't think you see it, but the whole thing comes across as childish. In fact, Ali G humiliated himself the moment he opened his mouth. Look at the way he talks. As far as this being "Hovind's most significant exposure to popular culture," that's nonsense. What you've written is a joke, Ali G is a joke, and the thing needs to be scaled way back or removed. Davril2020 made a good point. If this should stay, then Ali G's stupid remarks and purposefully bad English should be added to every Encyclopedia entry for every celebrity with an entry. I don't think anyone would agree that this would be a good idea.--Jason Gastrich 05:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

First Ali G is meant to be a joke. He did not humiliate himself that is what he does for a living.

Encyclopdia articles aren't jokes. And he humiliates himself for a living.

Second Ali G is a huge hit in the popular culture and for Hovind to be on such a show is actually quite an honor. Has Hovind ever been on such a large show before? David Letterman or similar?

I've never seen the show and probably never will. It reaches a smaller audience than most shows as it's on HBO. Furthermore, nobody could have felt honored by going on that show. Get real. I'm sure Kent Hovind wished he hadn't come on the show after Ali G's nonsense.

Thirdly, with regard to whether an AliG appearance should be noted for all his guests that have a page in wikipedia, it depends. For those that are regularly in the public eye (i.e. mainstream TV appearances), then may be no.

Exactly. The answer is no.

But for Hovind, who does not appear on TV, as far as i know, it does represent a major point with regard to his prominence in the US. Whether he was ridiculed is irrelevent and should not be part of the article.

In no way was it an honor for Hovind. Ali G is a joke and it did nothing whatsoever to further what Kent Hovind holds dear: faith in Jesus Christ and creation science. For 99.9% of Ali G's audience, it was a worthless endeavor on Hovind's behalf.

There seems to be a presumption here that Hovind sees this as a negative on his resume, therefore, we should remove it. This seems to be a hasty conclusion and I think many users will be interested in his appearance whether one views it as a negative or positive. As long as the description of the show is NPOV there should not be a problem here. David D. (Talk) 06:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just calling it as I see it. I know Kent personally and I think my comments about his intentions and feelings are very likely right on the mark. I'm sure he will never see that appearance as a feather in his cap.

The section on Ali G does absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. It certainly doesn't hurt Hovind because he gave his usual defense of YEC. It only makes Ali G look like a jerk for talking in slang and putting down Hovind. If that's what Hovind's Encyclopedia entry needs, then so be it. You can look at the contributions and see that I never removed it. I just tried to make it read like an article one may find in an encyclopedia. Perhaps we can scale it down to one paragraph. Those who are interested in Hovind are likely much more interested in debate rhetoric than the Ali G transcript. I posted a link to it in case they are interested. There may be more, though.--Jason Gastrich 06:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sacha Baron Cohen poses as Ali G to bring out the fellow buffoon in his interviewees. To the extent that he either demonstrably fails or clearly succeeds in doing so, his schtick reflects on their character in a way worthy of encyclopedic note. As to whether or not a sense of humor belongs in this venue, show me a directive requiring Misplaced Pages narratives to hew to the dull and dour. Larvatus 07:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Precedent for reference to Ali G

Well i just did some research and the following all have their appearance on the AliG show mentioned on their page. James Broadwater (politician), Pat_Buchanan (evangelist/politician), Shaud Williams (american football player), Buzz Aldrin (apollo 11 astranaut) and Sammy Wilson (politician).

Whether Hovind thinks it was an honor to be on the show should not be considered. What should be considered is why was Hovind, of all the YEC apolgists in the US, selected to be on the show? It is a clear statement of his fame, or notoriety, in the US. More so than any of the speeches he gives at various religious organisations or debates.

With regard to Ali G humiliating himself, I think this says more about ones own interpretation of the show than his professional or personal status. The show has had an Emmy nomination and won a BAFTA. His comedy lineage is from the Cambridge University footlights, who also gave us the Monty Python team and Douglas Adams among many others.

With regard to popularity, while some may not watch HBO, many do. I do not know what the ratings are for the show, but the fact it is getting awards and has had multiple seasons would imply it is successful. All said, i see no reason for Hovinds appearance on the show to be deleted. David D. (Talk) 07:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

If it stays, do you really think the dialogue should stay? Is the dialogue on the other entries you linked above?--Jason Gastrich 07:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The entries have no dialog that i noticed, although, I didn't study them too closely. I don't think they even had their own section but were woven in with other relevent text. I have no problem about modeling the entry on those articles above. I do have a problem with removing the reference to the show for no reason other than some think it is silly. Besides what a chance for Hovind to influence a new audience, isn't that what evangelism is all about? David D. (Talk) 07:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course. That .01% is probably praying right now. Weaving it into the entry and removing the dialogue sounds reasonable. Seeing Ali G speak just makes the entry look like a comic book or something. --Jason Gastrich 07:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Jason wrote:, "makes the entry look like a comic book" and Dino Adenture land does the same for me. David D. (Talk) 09:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The Ali G episode under discussion may be found here: . Larvatus 07:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Thanks. I downloaded it, but I had to stop it when he wouldn't stop saying "9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9 ......". --Jason Gastrich 06:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Please stop removing the summary of the exchange edited in response to your criticism, especially if you cannot bear to view the original broadcast. Also, we are not allowed to link articles to a site infringing HBO's copyright. I posted the link to the show for your benefit only. If it is unhelpful, so be it. But your failure to inform yourself is no qualification for insisting on a large cut of relevant narrative laid out accurately and dispassionately. Larvatus 11:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Please stop lying in the edit summary

23:35, 20 December 2005 64.230.108.103 (→empircal -> empirical)

00:44, 20 December 2005 64.230.108.207 (→Fixed typo)

Both edits made by the same user. Both were major deletions. Both were described as minor edits. Please don't do it. David D. (Talk) 05:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Lying in the edit summary is foolish. --Jason Gastrich 06:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Larvatus' False Accusation

How can you call my contribution to Hovind's entry vandalism? You need to apologize and retract that false accusation. I offered a sensibile paragraph that resembles the other paragraphs about Ali G in other celebrities' entries. Furthermore, I didn't know the link YOU posted in the talk page was copyright infringement. Why did you post it if it was illegal? I thought you posted a legal link to the .wmv file, so I put it on the entry. --Jason Gastrich 19:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Please look into the doctrine of fair use. Posting a link to a copyrighted file for the narrow purposes of private communication is perfectly legal. Referencing it for public use is illegal. As to your latest contribution to this entry, its main consequence was a summary deletion of a narrative summarizing the performance at issue, created by a collaborative effort. In doing so, you bypassed the ongoing discussion of merits and relevance. Please abstain from further unilateral action, pending our achievement of an editorial consensus in this matter. Larvatus 20:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

• Jason Gastrich, is that really you? I don't know if you remember me or not, but I talked with you online awhile ago. As for calling it "vandalism" - pretty much anything on Misplaced Pages that is reverted is called "vandalism". Definitely do not take it personally. --Cyde Weys _talk 19:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Cyde. Nice to see you!--Jason Gastrich 21:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Should the Ali G Dialogue Be Included?

This is a conversation with Larvatus (the author of the dialogue contribution). I think we have consensus that there should be a mention of Ali G. Let's discuss whether or not the dialogue should be in the entry. Here is our conversation. Please contribute.

I think that the exchange between Ali G and Kent Hovind, as currently summarized in the article dedicated to the latter is both relevant and meaningful. I see no legitimate public interest in suppressing it from Misplaced Pages. Larvatus 21:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Well, we need a reason for its inclusion. Saying you can't see why it shouldn't be included isn't a reason for its inclusion.

I have several reasons why the dialgoue should be deleted.

1. Ali G doesn't speak in regular English, so it "dumbs down" the entry.

2. The other celebrities' entries that contain an Ali G episode mention do not include dialogue.

3. It does nothing to stimulate the creation/evolution or belief/unbelief interests that Kent Hovind is known for. --Jason Gastrich 21:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think the Ali G dialogue as it is right now is good. Two short paragraphs is enough to get the point across. Adding any more would not serve much illustrative purpose. I think a good compromise would be to prominently display an external link to the rest of the dialogue in the section that already briefly covers it. --Cyde Weys _talk 00:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any objections to the present text. Perhaps an expanded comment on how it was one of Hovind's more prominent appearances, but it's lost the childish tone and that's the main thing. --Davril2020 01:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I see the recited reasons for deleting the dialogue as supporting its retention:
  • 1. The alleged dumbing down brings out the stupidity of arguing against evolution on the basis of monkeys' failure to have human children.
  • 2. The other celebrities' entries that contain an Ali G episode mention might as well be expanded to include dialogue.
  • 3. It engages Kent Hovind on the ad hominem basis for which he is known, and gets the better of him as a result. "I ain't pointing any fingers, but shame on you."

Larvatus 03:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

I can side with Davril and Cyde and leave the 2 paragraphs. However, the "floater" nonsense has to go. Plus, it needs to be nPOV; nothing about "refuting Hovind" or "echoing Hovind's standard for truth" or else it's POV. How do you know Hovind's standard for truth on his show wasn't just a joke, too? He obviously considered his audience and spoke accordingly. Don't say it's his standard for truth as if that's his only argument or standard.

I think I finally see why you want this in here so badly. You think it's damning to Hovind. It took me a long time to see that because all it looks like is a juvenile trying to conduct an interview. --Jason Gastrich 05:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The "floater" comment is an integral part of the show and an accurate conclusion to its recounting. I neither know nor care whether Hovind makes logical arguments in other venue. The fact remains that he has been publicly bested as a maker of ad hominem arguments by Ali G. This event deserves to be commemorated. Larvatus 06:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Larvatus, we only need a descriptive explanation of what happens and we should strive to avoid childish remarks. It is a humour show. The idea is to be funny and to mock others. I cannot see your obsession with the point when Hovind has also been shown to make ad hominem arguments by far more reputable sources. What is the significance of the fact a comedian did this for you? Why not replace it with an academic source, an expert on evolution if it is important (and I think it is)? --Davril2020 21:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Horses for courses. In my opinion, the relevance of the Ali G episode is in demonstrating Hovind's nature as an affable comedian, as distinct from a polemicist focused on making a scientific claim. This vocational choice makes unconclusive his engagements with academic adversaries such as Coates. But by the same token, it makes him susceptible to a comic reductio by Ali G. Larvatus 16:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Is the "floater" necessary?

I suppose we've concluded that Ali G's dialogue, although painful to read, is potentially acceptable. Do we really need the random statement about the floater? What is the point? I say we delete it. Thoughts? --Jason Gastrich 07:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I never thought I'd see the day but I agree with Gastrich. I understand making points with satire and parody but the description of the Ali G interview (I have not seen the show itself) reads as rather juvenile. I question spending so much time on it here. And the "floater" thing is absurd. Toilet humor in a publication that aspires to be encyclopedic? Sorry, don't see it. And, mind you, I'm an atheist neo-Darwinian who thinks Hovind is a dishonest, foolish, buffoon. With all that, my reaction remains "toilet humor in an encyclopedia?" Mark K. Bilbo 16:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Mark makes good points here. I agree it should be removed. David D. (Talk) 16:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Please see the show before making this call. I have provided a link to a privately maintained copy , which should not be referenced in the article under discussion, lest we cross the boundaries of fair use. I will abide by informed editorial consensus. Larvatus 16:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

I agree with the consensus on this one. Frankly, I'd be happier if the Ali G section was just about his notable appearance with Ali G, and the scientific refutations of the arguments were strengthened in other sections. Saying he left a "floater" really doesn't prove anything either way. --Cyde Weys _vote 16:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I saw the link you provided the first time. I appreciate the humor, personally i find it quite amusing to see the reaction of those interviewed when Ali G just spouts idiotic comments. They try to be serious and calm but its obvious their brains are running amok trying to figure out what the hell is going on. If you look at the Ali G entries on other biographies in wiki they are quite small with only a few lines of analysis. I think it is appropriate to discuss the interviews evolutionary contect of the discussion. I also think it is appropriate to have some quotes in that context. With regard to an analysis of the humor or an analysis of political points scored by Ali G i think this should be presented on the Ali G wiki page. David D. (Talk) 16:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm holding back on seeing the clip on purpose. My point being if someone who knows little about the matter(s) in question (which is part of the point of an encyclopedia of any kind) comes here, what impression would they obtain? And, frankly, I think it's not good. The interview could be the funniest thing that ever happened on TV but the description here reads seriously juvenile. Particularly with the "floater" thing. Frankly, I think it makes the Misplaced Pages come off looking rather, well, amatuerish. Mark K. Bilbo 18:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Good discussion. Me and Mark agreeing on this reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George has nothing in common with the girl that looks like Jerry, but they both like chewing gum. *smile* All joking aside, it's good that diverse people like David, Mark, Cyde, Larvatus, and I can find common ground, compromise, and even agreement; especially in a controversial entry like Hovind's. --Jason Gastrich 17:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm shocked lemme tell ya. Guess it's snowing in hell just in time for Christmas? Mark K. Bilbo 18:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Alleged anti-semitism and humor to hide willfully false "claims"

WarriorScribe has such a problem writing nPOV, I'm not sure where to start.

• Wiki rules warn against using language like "claims". The same should probably go for "established" when referring to a viewpoint that something is established when it's actually disputed.
• The mention of anti-semitism and the willfully false "claims" needs to be made nPOV if they are to stay.
• The information about the book for sale is true because I noticed it on his site. However, its mention and the book's contents still needs to be nPOV.
• The paragraph regarding Hovind's humor shouldn't be used as an opportunity to POV the article.

--Jason Gastrich 05:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Gastrich is fully incapable of inculcating a nPOV, as his recent antics with the Biblo page demonstrate.

I'm not going to bother reading below this line. The administrator rebuked WarriorScribe with his ruling regarding the Bilbo entry; which was in favor of my contribution and against paragraph after paragraph of WarriorScribe's whining and opining and personal attacks. If someone can't write nPOV it's certainly Dave Horn/WarriorScribe. --Jason Gastrich 09:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, a mediator made a decision with which I disagree. I was not "rebuked." Leave it to Gastrich to spin it, but, as near as I can tell, the episode is one that explains why real encyclopedias have professionals editing them. The Bilbo episode was clearly a successful attempt by Gastrich to infuse his POV into a biographical article, and the comments that he insisted be added are of no merit.

I had little doubt that Gastrich would gloat over the Bilbo episode, as it's very much in character for him. It doesn't mean a thing. As they say, "the sun shines on even a dog's ass once in a while," and "even a stopped clock is right twice a day." Gastrich's gloating is fully within expectations of such an unsavory character and certainly not indicative of a Christian. Let him gloat. It's one "win" against many, many losses so far, and many losses to come.

As for my "whining and opining," my case stands. One mediator made a decision, doubtless due to the fact that I wasn't really willing to compromise with Gastrich on the issue, but one with integrity doesn't compromise with the likes of Gastrich. He was still wrong, and the mediator decision was wrong.

The fact is that I'm exposing Gastrich's attempts to infuse Misplaced Pages with his POV whereever I see it. He has no intelligent response to any of it, so he'll pretend that he's not reading it (of course he's reading...he's too arrogant not to read it); but he's a child, used to getting his own way. Regardless, I will continue to oppose his efforts, fully expecting that, now and then, I won't always be successful. That's life. But given that Misplaced Pages has been taking some pretty serious hits in the press, lately, given the means by which articles are composed and edited, it's the likes of Gastrich that will, sooner or later, have to be weeded out. WarriorScribe 09:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an established hoax, and this is well known among historians and scholars of the subject matter. It was widely used as a justification for anti-semitism, just as I noted in the article, by, among others, Adolph Hitler. Hovind is something of a personal hero to Gastrich. He should be happy I don't mention the Hitler connection in the comments.
• Gastrich complained that one shouldn't make comments that include "established" when a comment or claim is "disputed." There are lots of people who dispute that the Earth is not flat, too. We don't defer to them in encyclopedia articles that deal in facts or what is understood to be fact. We don't defer to self-serving, self-ordained "ministers," either.
• The mention of the fact that the book is used as justification for anti-semitism does not violate nPOV. The problem is that it puts Gastrich's hero in a worse light, knowing that. It's not a problem for the facts if the facts point to something that some may not happen to like. By concealing such things, it's Gastrich whom is trying to perpetuate a POV. After all, why mention that it's a problem for Hovind to be selling the book if we don't explain why it's a problem?
• The comments about Hovind's humor were not adjusted to inculcate POV. The comments were added as pertinent to Hovind's debate "tactics" and those of other creationists. The facts of the matter have been fully established and the Talk Origins Archive is one of the more reliable sources that one may find on the web, having been praised by many scientific organizations and periodicals. If we can talk about Hovind's "humor," his "challenges," and his "methods," we can expose the problems with all of those things, and more, as long as they're relevant.
• Gastrich needs to spend a little more time in his Bible, and a little less time in hero-worship; and he is the last person to presume to lecture anyone on the subject of "neutral point of view." All one has to do, again, is look at the situation with the Mark Bilbo article to see that. WarriorScribe 06:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Gastrich busted again for POV pushing

You can't miss it. Check the history on the "humor" entry for the Hovind article. At first, Gastrich wanted to edit it back a little, and use the link that I provided (as a reference) to indicate that there was only dispute about the bones of Lucy.

But whoa, nelly! Then Gastrich must have actually read the link, or at least scanned it, and noticed that, not only does it refute the claims about the bones of Lucy, but it also exposes Hovind as having been told about this false claim as far back as 1993! And Hovind agreed to stop making the claim, yet subsequently made it again. Well, that must've been quite a shocker to Gastrich, but did he figure to go ahead and change the comments about humor, then, to reflect this new information? Or maybe we could just take out the whole paragraph...? Nope. Instead, he removed the whole section that I added--twice! He didn't want the readers to even see the reference, because of what it exposes.

Now, it seems to me, with all of this whimpering about POV, that Gastrich (or whoever wrote the "humor" paragraph) opened the door. Why? It's simple. Whoever wrote the paragraph, no doubt, wanted to portray Hovind as some folksy, down-to-Earth type that uses humor to endear himself to the audience. It's a debate tactic, pure and simple, it's very common (can we all say, "Ronald Reagan?"), and, by itself, there's nothing wrong with it. But as that's the case, then it's perfectly reasonable to examine that a little bit deeper, and expose the reasons why that sort of tactic is often used by creationists in these debates.

The fact is that Gastrich tried to push the POV that Hovind is just some honest guy out to make a joke or two while pinning a few "evilutionists" to the wall. That's POV pushing folks, of a more subtle kind. And he all but proved it when he let the reference get by him, then decided it needed to go, entirely.

Fool me once, shame on you...

I think we know the rest...don't we? WarriorScribe 06:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Humour/Humor Section

I'm not entirely happy with the 'humour' section at the moment. The main emphasis should be to note that one of Hovind's key strategies is to attempt to pose as a 'folksy' and 'down-to-earth' type of person against 'ivory-tower' evolutionists. I think the particular Hovind quote explains that quite well yet it requires more accompanying text.

It might be better if we were to rehash the section more heavily, creating a big section on 'Hovind's debate and strategies' or something similar. Humour could be dealt with as a subset of it, as it is undoubtedly fascinating how Hovind (and others) attempt to use a warm and engaging personality to win scientific debates.

I'll start something tomorrow, but if anyone has particular points they'd like to see covered on the subject of Hovind post them here (or a draft if you like!). Please try not to over-reference Talk.Origins though; a couple of references are fine, but it looks very bad when you have dozens of them in a single article. --Davril2020 20:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. In fact, what I think happened was this: The incident was included within the "humor" context to sneak in a creationist critique of evolutionary evidence in such a manner that it would, presumably, not be challenged or refuted. Of course, this piece of "evidence" was refuted years ago. So if we're going to include the specific episode so that the creationist writing the piece can wink at us and imply that that this is how Hovind makes fun of those silly evolutionists, we can respond and show why that debate tactic, using that specific example, is a bit less than honest. This shows that Hovind's attempts at humor are not always effective with all whom might view them, and may be dissected to reveal the deeper issues involved. That restores balance, which leads to a more neutral POV.

In simpler language? Not everyone thinks that Hovind is funny. WarriorScribe 20:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Simply put, Hovind uses a lot of humor in his lectures. Without using the section to state one's POV about his intentions, his humor should be mentioned. It's an integral part of his personality and his lectures. I see nothing wrong with the original paragraph on his humor. --Jason Gastrich 00:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Hovind attempts to use humor in his "lectures." So do lots of other people, as noted. Sometimes they use humor to belittle others or to cover lies, as Hovind also does. If it's nPOV to claim that he uses humor, it's more nPOV to explain why he does it. This has already been explained in greater detail, and Gastrich, as usual, ignored it. WarriorScribe 00:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I've done a partial rewrite and changed the section from Hovind's humor to debating style. I don't think his humour is significant except in the context of his debates so the new title is more appropriate. Let me know what you think. --Davril2020 14:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It works better...less POV than the previous heading. WarriorScribe 17:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

FYI to all Involved

I have requested arbitration for this page. It seems that Gastrich takes much pleasure in reverting/deleting edits by people that do not agree to his particular point of view. As it is, I'm almost sickened to the point of quitting Misplaced Pages, but someone has to defend the Christian name against the repeated slander of "christians" like Gastrich. Icj tlc 20:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2 01 2006 Kent Hovind Decided to use Gastrich's methods this time...easier than getting myself blocked again. Icj tlc 20:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

As it turns out, the "cabal" has no enforcement power, and I'm not sure that arbitration is necessary, at this point. However, I am considering an RfC with regard to Gastrich and his purpose here, as far as it may be discerned. Given his antics over several months, as well as some of the comments I've saved and his, well, let's just call them "creative editings" on talk pages and such, that may be the way to go. I'm seeking advice on that from more established (and less volatile, more objective) Wikipedians. WarriorScribe 20:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know the cabal has no power to enforce, but when I was trying to get arbritation, it was suggested that I follow the procedure listed in resolution settlement. I try to do as little editting myself as possible, as I don't consider myself to be "read up" on a lot of topics, I'm a minister and I mostly use Misplaced Pages in preparing lessons and I'm tired of seeing Gastrich's POV on all these pages related to christianity issues. It's really frustrating me. I like to use NPOV when I prevent things in my classes, so Gastrich is really binding me up. Icj tlc 20:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. WarriorScribe 20:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Ali G again

Let me pipe in and say that I have serious doubts about the inclusion of the Ali G material. Yes, I know other entries have material on Ali G appearances. The issue, however, is whether anything notable happened during the appearance. This may be the case for other people, but is demonstrably not the case with Hovind.

On the Ali G show (a) Ali G maintained that eating a banana proved evolution (b) badgered Hovind about not flushing his toilet. Absolutely hilarious if you ask me, but notable? Encyclopedic? Come on. If Britannica had an entry on Hovind, and moreover if there were no space limitation on such an entry, do you think this appearance would be included there? --Pierremenard 01:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

• As they say in the old country, if my aunt had a cock, she would be my uncle. This is not Britannica. What's the point of judging encyclopedicity on the basis of a paper and ink competitor that we are aiming to supersede? Larvatus 16:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)larvatus

• We are not like Britannica in some ways and like Britannica in other ways. It may be inappropriate to make comparisons between encyclopedias in areas where they are different - e.g. wikipedia not having space limitations. On the other hand, its perfectly appropriate to make comparisons where the two encyclopedias are similar - for example, whether some fact is encyclopedic enough to deserve inclusion. And, by thw way, we are definitely not trying to supersede Britannica. --Pierremenard 01:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• What is noteworthy (as absolutely hilarious) but not encyclopedic? Larvatus 08:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)larvatus

• Merely because something is hilarious does not mean its noteworthy. I fail to see how Ali G's badgering of Hovind about not flushing his toilet is noteworthy in the slightest. Care to explain? --Pierremenard 21:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• The floater comments are not part of the article at this time. The banana refutation remains here by hard-earned editorial consensus. If you object to its presence, it is up to you to present an argument for exclusion. Larvatus 22:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)larvatus

I have already done so: nothing notable happened during the interview. --Pierremenard 00:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what percentage of the editors have to agree to be able to claim a consensus for something - but in your determination of the percentage agreeing with the inclusions, please count an oppose vote from myself. --Pierremenard 00:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• I was involved in the editing that section. I do think this is a notable event, but not becuase it is hilarious (assuming you find AliG funny). I think anyone who is on the radar screen for an Ali G interview is obviously prominent in popular culture. His appearance on the show is evidence that his voice is heard, whether we like the message or not. David D. (Talk) 00:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

If that is the rationale for inclusion, then the section ought to be reduced to a mere mention of his appearance - perhaps among mentions of his other appearances at prominent tv/radio shows. The content of the interview - "has you ever eaten a banana?" - does nothing to further to goals you have described here, i.e. demonstrating prominence in popular culture. --Pierremenard 00:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with David D. regarding the prominence factor. Additionally, the banana exchange notably reflects the logic of Hovind's refutation of evolution on the basis of monkeys' failure to have human babies. Larvatus 00:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)larvatus

Thats an attempt to bunch two statements into one. Its clear how the exchange reflects the logic of Hovind's refutation of evolution....but, again, why is this notable? Is every time someone criticizes Hovind's logic - perhaps in form of mockery - notable? --Pierremenard 00:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• I say that in this case, notability of criticism is a consequence of its prominence. Larvatus 13:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)larvatus

So every time someone notable criticizes Hovind, it deserves a place in the article? --Pierremenard 19:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Concur with David D. and Larvatus. I objected to the 'floater' comment as well and that is gone. The significance of the interaction is quite profound, not because the interview criticises Hovind but because it is by a notable media personality. Indeed, most people outside the US probably know Hovind only through this incident. I would be amenable to a rework of the section which ran 'Hovind and the media' and used this as one example of many, but I don't see any reason to remove it. I would consider it NPOV just to mention that the comedian interviewed Hovind as it is quite a significant point that the comedian criticises Hovind's views in a manner in which he cannot quite respond to. --Davril2020 14:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

"Indeed, most people outside the US probably know Hovind only through this incident." Do you have some sort of source for this assertion? --Pierremenard 19:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a section on prominent media appearance that would include Ali G would be OK. For the record, I consider the current version to be NPOV, but unencyclopedic. --Pierremenard 19:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy to see you experimet with a Hovind/media rework of this section. It could be better than what we have at present. David D. (Talk) 19:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a reference for the suggestion that Hovind is widely known in parts of the world through his Ali G interview (hence my use of the term 'probably' rather than 'certainly' - I can elaborate more if you wish, but I don't feel the point needs to be overtly raised in the article). As for the recent changes, Hovind's response to Ali G is interesting, though the comments about the interview being editted down seems a little superfluous. That's surely going to occur with every comedy interview where the target is the butt of a joke? --Davril2020 03:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Reversion

Admin reverts carry no edit summary. Repeated reinsertion by one sockpuppet of material added by another and removed, is vandalism. Admin reverts are appropriate in cases of vandalism. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / 10:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You'll need to do better than that. It's a pertinent link. You have no good reason to revert. If you did, you would have said so. --LinkChecker 10:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I will not need to do better than that. Nor am I the only one to have reverted this. - Just zis  Guy, you know? / 10:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because you're an admin, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. And I'm not the only one who has reverted and added the link, either. --LinkChecker 10:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually you are the only one who has reverted and added the link. You've just been using multiple accounts to do it with, thus attempting to avoid WP:3RR. It ain't gonna fly. --Cyde Weys 10:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Your temporary block is expired, Gastrich. You don't need to use socks. Harvestdancer 17:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

An anon. user has removed the note that the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (from Czarist Russia) is a hoax. (The work claims there is an international conspiracy of Jews.) Just so that person knows, it was shown to be a hoax very early on. Notaby as early as 1921 by The London Times. In fact, the majority of it is stolen from a 1864 pamphlet Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu. While many anti-semitists have continued to cite it nonetheless (Hitler refers to the Protocols in his Mein Kampf, chapter XI: Nation and Race, Vol I, pp. 307-308.). After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian government researched it and came to the conclusion it is false. Russian Court Rules 'Protocols' an Anti-Semitic Forgery By Michael A. Hiltzik, Los Angeles Times, November 28, 1993 . Kent Hovind sells this book without commentary on its origins or that it has been proven false many times. Arbustoo 03:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Gastrich and a couple of his socks have tried to remove this, claiming it's not nPOV. - WarriorScribe 01:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a quote from Hovind on the subject:

"There was a book written called The Protocols of Zion . Now, it was written by the rich guys, but they said, “If this book ever gets found we want to blame it on the Jews.” So they called it Protocols of Zion . But it’s actually the plan of how to control the world. It’s about seventy some pages, you can, I don’t think you can print it off my website but you can get it in a lot of places.

And some people saying, “Hovind, Hovind mentions The Protocols of Zion . That means he is anti Jewish.” No, I’m not anti Jewish, okay. I love the Jews. But The Protocols of Zion was written to explain how to control the world, I mean, it lays it all out. But it’s really carefully done so that if it is ever discovered the Jews take the blame for it. Interesting. Well, read the book and see what you think."

Can someone clarify what Hovind believes the book to say or represent? He seems distinctly evasive in this section and I can't work out what he's trying to pin the book down as, though it does seem he doesn't consider it to be an actual fabrication. --Davril2020 23:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection

I restored semi-protection for a while due to the efforts of an anon vandal, with a credible threat of continued vandalism (dynamic IP, can be changed easily and quickly as we all know). - Just zis  Guy, you know? / 23:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment

I just wanted to say, this is one of the most amusing talk pages I have ever seen. Over half of it appears to be devoted to Ali G... am I the only one who thinks that's funny? The Taped Crusader 03:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You're being a little unfair, I think Sacha Baron-Cohen's mum finds Ali G funny as well. Just zis  Guy, you know? / 09:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Read the George W. Bush talk page. Several thousand words on whether it is or is not appropriate to include the word "nukular" in an encyclopedia entry. --Davril2020 09:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The Loch Ness monster, UFOs, and Native American brain surgery

I added a section on Hovind's beliefs that "UFOs are apparitions of Satan" and that the US government possess and flys some UFOs. This section should be expanded eventually.

Also, as a young earth creationist, Hovind believes the earth has created by God 6-4,000 years ago. Consequently, Hovind believes dinosaurs are not extinct reptiles from millions of years past. Rather Hovind claims that not only human and dinosaur co-existed 6-4,000 years ago, but that the Loch Ness monster exists, is a dinosaur, and is proof that dinosaurs and humans have and can coexist. I find it interesting that his self appointed title as "Dr. Dino" is mentioned as well as his dinosaur adventure land, but no one talks about this name and what Hovind teaches about dinosaurs.

Another interesting fact is in 2005 Hovind claimed, "Spanish conquistadors" in 1571 found drawings of dinosaurs on stones, and "on them you will see people doing brain and heart surgery as well as every known dinosaur clearly depicted. Several hundred of them show humans and dinosaurs together." It would be nice to have these beliefs examined further. Arbustoo 00:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

User:JzG's bullshit

This motherfucker reverted my contributions and said I can't link "Jason Gastrich's site." He left that on my talk page. Who does this jackass think he is? My contribution took time and work and for some dickweed like Guy to revert it, for no good reason at all, is fucked up. --Jack White1 07:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Blocked per WP:NPA. Just zis Guy you know? 09:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)