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About the background section

I believe the background section suffers from problems of original synthesis, undue weight, and cherrypicking sources. Some questions I have are how the notes from Time are relevant as background to this event? I checked all the references in that section, and as far as I can tell, the only thing that links Li's remarks with this event is the note by Gittings: "But some observers believe it is possible that the five were driven by desperation - and confusion about Mr Li's "new scripture" - to attempt suicide." -- does that warrant the great emphasis on them, and all the information we are presented with about Li's other remarks? Notably, in Ownby's book there is not much emphasis on linking the scripture with the immolation. I would suggest that that is a good indicator of how much emphasis wiki should give to it. Unfortunately, this looks like an instance of selected quotes arranged in a way that supports a particular narrative that is not explicitly articulated in any of the sources quoted. I just mentioned how the only thing linking the scripture to the immolation is the note from Gittings (actually from Jensen and Weston as well) -- but is there anything at all linking Li's other remarks with it? If not, it's unclear how they belong in the section that is a backgrounder to the immolation.

I find that the first paragraph is much the same; a novel narrative. This particular expression of the lead-up to the persecution is not found in any single source, so it's a kind of original synthesis in itself. Further, even if it was in a source, it still wouldn't be the most neutral, accepted, or common way of discussing it. I would contend that Sima Nan's remarks about Falun Gong are barely relevant for the Falun Gong pages anyway, given how little they are mentioned in reliable sources, let alone weaving them into a narrative here. So much attention is given to what Falun Gong is alleged to have done, or what Li is alleged to have said, whereas in a third party analysis of most of these events, the focus is largely on what the CCP has done. One important question is about where this article is situated; I mean, if it had to be categorised, what is this article a subtopic of? I think if we did that analysis, it would become clear that in the overwhelming number of cases, this event is a referred to in the context of the propaganda campaign waged by the CCP against Falun Gong. That's the context this event is situated within, quite beside the question of the identity of the participants. I would first like to know whether this proposition is disputed, and if it is, then do some source-mining to find out which way the event is mostly discussed. Let's put it this way: if the event is mostly contextualised as an example of Falun Gong's apparent suicidal tendencies, or Li's encouragement for immolation, then it would make perfect sense to emphasise the aspects that have been emphasised in the background section. If it is mostly framed as an example of state propaganda (and yes, I believe it's quite indisputable that it is), then the background and other elements of the article should reflect this. Does this make sense? I'm making this argument and using contrarian logic to try to show, or explain, why I believe certain information is out of place here. As long as there is no explicit link between Li's remarks and this event, I believe their inclusion here is a subtle sort of original synthesis, irrelevancy, and undue weight. Further, given this, I don't think there is enough acknowledgement or emphasis on how this event was used as a piece of propaganda. I mean, the current mentions are a poor reflection of the body of sources which have situated it in that context. Again, for now what I'm saying is argumentation and proposition; I will be happy to test these theories with research.

Notes on how the Jensen and Weston source has been used, and suggestions for how to improve accuracy: 1) it is written fully as "Falun Gong" not "FG." 2) There is a paragraph break before "Such flames..." 3) The next sentence at the end is "Whatever the truth about the incident, it clearly marked an important public relations victory for the Chinese state within China, as many Chinese who had remained neutral to that point came to share the authorities’ view that the Falun Gong was indeed a dangerous heterodox sect." I contend that at least "Whatever the truth about the incident..." is relevant and should be tacked on. If the rest is too long, just use ellipses. The note of inconclusiveness is important, in my opinion. --Asdfg12345 15:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that no one has responded to this for close to two weeks, I would suggest the items suggested there are actionable by anyone. --Asdfg12345 01:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

An article built on CCP propaganda

A lot the central material in the current article is CCP propaganda, presented without context. Sources such as Pan, Schechter, Ainsley, Brady, Qinglian, are all either kept out or sidelined. Even the perspective of Ownby is distorted.

Images directly taken from footage described as "engineered" by sources such as Schechter, are presented, with captions that lend legitimacy to it. I cant help but say that this is but the product of pure propaganda and spin. Any attempt to improve it or add objective sources in is immediately countered. I'll point out how much of the academic material was blanked out in a series of edits and how academic sources such as Schechter are sidelined as "subscribing entirely to Falun Gong POV."

CCP Propaganda, and images drawn from it, are not a legitimate material for an encyclopedia.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 07:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Lemme give you the eyebrow on this: you are linking to a section that Asdfg threw in a few weeks ago, and are suggesting that the people who do not share your views get paid for their edits? (just making sure I understand this correctly) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 08:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

If I remember right it was I myself who "threw in" the section. All I commented on was how much the article draws from CCP propaganda. I did not imply that people who do not agree with my perspective get paid. I did not analyze the history of edits and was assuming this kind of disruption could only owe itself to IP edits. All that I intent to convey in the post above is that I have deep concerns regarding this pattern of removal of well sourced, centrally relevant material, misrepresentation of sources such as Ownby, and an almost WP:RS status provided to xinhua and CCP propaganda( the current article builds itself on Xinhua propaganda presented for fact) . Anyway, just focusing on the content and sticking to WP guidelines is all thats needed to fix these issues. I apologize if my comment came across as against other editors.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 13:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Good. That's all I wanted to know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

A quick note that Schechter isn't an academic source. Of course, it's fallacious that he be excluded because editors don't like his POV, but no one was there to stop it from being deleted. I share the concerns about how openly CCP anti-Falun Gong propaganda is used in the article as though it is a regular source. I wouldn't accuse anyone of any ill intentions though. Cut and summarise, and attribute the CCP claims to reliable sources as far as possible; their view is obviously a significant one, but shouldn't be used as a factual one like it is. I also think the background section has problems, as I wrote above. At the same time, it would not work to turn that section into an oppositely weighted coatrack full of detailed information about the horrors of the persecution. I wrote above that in the vast majority of sources this incident finds its context within the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong. That's how it's usually construed. I think the background section should introduce the fact of the persecution, talk about the propaganda campaign, and to the extent that reliable sources have discussed it, only then talk about how Li's teachings were allegedly related to the incident. But on that last point, no evidence (in the form of reliable sources) has been presented for it. It's just a splicing of several different sources. Ownby's text does not draw a link between these two things at all (i.e., an escalation in Li's public statements and the immolation), so it's quite unclear why we should. In fact, I don't think we should unless it is directly textually supported. And much of that is to do with the "dispute" rather than the "background." Two cents.--Asdfg12345 13:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I surveyed the use of Chinese state sources used in this FA. At the time of writing, they are the following:

• : used five times, four times with attribution, once with corroboration by Western source.
• : appropriately used (one use with attribution, one use without attribution for stating that two protesters were not tried).
• : appropriately used (for date when Chinese government ban started).
• : appropriately used, twice with attribution, once with corroborating source from Human Rights Watch.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : this is a Reuters report reproduced on a Chinese government website.
• : used with corroboration by Western source.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : was used without attribution; attribution has now been added.

I don't see a problem with these uses. --JN466 14:21, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, gentlemen. This is an article that's been thoroughly reviewed by the wikipedia community and it is a featured article. It is as close to neutral as we can make it. No one's buying into your advocacy rants. Please quit the complaining to advance your agenda. Colipon+(Talk) 15:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Being used with attribution of the point of view of CCP propaganda is different from being used with attribution like any other source, as a piece of factual information. The two are vastly different. The article in many places uses such sources in the second way, when they should only be allowed to be used in the first way, according to the RS policy. These are extremist and propaganda sources which are associated with a persecution; they do the propaganda for it. They're not normal sources, and can only be relied upon to transmit the CCP perspective. I wouldn't suggest they be deleted entirely, but use restricted to one section which outlines the CCP's point of view. In reality though, it may be possible to present the CCP perspective without having to resort to primary sources. In any case, having a subsection that outlines the CCP's claims would solve the problem. Sprinkling the propaganda sources throughout the article creates problems for readers. Actually, I just mean they should not purport to represent facts. If it's appropriate to mention the CCP perspective in several places, then do that. But there is a big difference between using them as facts and using them as opinions. There was also a lot of information deleted from the page, too. I'll find an older version of the article and paste some of the deletions below, for anyone who dares to add back in. --Asdfg12345 02:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Please, stop wikilawyering. Merits of sources should be judged individually and with regards to their usage. There is nothing wrong with adding sources from the PRC government, provided they're attributed correctly. Especially considering that they're an involved party, a blanket ban or dismissal is against the spirits of WP:NPOV.--PCPP (talk) 14:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I hope it was clear that I did not suggest a blanket ban or dismissal of all CCP sources. I said they should be more clearly identified as such, and not be elevated to the place of facts, as they are frequently in the article. And this can be in various ways, including using propaganda in an official-looking table, or weaving it among factual accounts from journalists, etc. Both those things can and should be avoided. the CCP view will still be aired, but it shouldn't be in a way that gives the unsuspecting reader the impression that what they're reading is not state propaganda against a persecuted group.... (unless that's the whole point? No, I don't believe it).--Asdfg12345 00:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• PCPP and others, I've followed the discussion and see how this is a difficult issue. Here is what I think: You wrote, "erits of sources should be judged individually and with regards to their usage. There is nothing wrong with adding sources from the PRC government, provided they're attributed correctly." That sounds very nonbiased and academic but, how are you going to correctly distinguish true from propoganda sources in this case? I do not know how old you (or other editors here) are but in the former Soviet Union a few decades ago, there was a media/paper called "Pravda", which translates as "Truth". It became a laughing stock amongst Russians and to this day. Do you understand? So, my point being that in places like communist countries where there is no media freedom, presenting their side is not trivial as one really does not know what one is presenting; it could very well be something blatently made up (i.e. their propoganda). So, some ideas on how to avoid this would be great. AnnaInDC (talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You act as if the PRC is the only source producing propaganda, and that everything FLG and the US tells is the absolute truth. To assume that because China has limited media freedom, all of its sources can be blanketly labelled as "propaganda" is absolutely dishonest and goes against the spirit of NPOV. Propaganda goes both ways, and what is "truth" and "propaganda" is subjective, as such it's up to the reader to decide.--PCPP (talk) 04:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

that's wrong. This is what the WP:RS policy is for. Please read it. And if there are other disputes, they can be taken to the NPOV noticeboard. --Asdfg12345 06:03, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I made a few small changes based on the discussion above. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 00:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I looked, and agree. --Asdfg12345 00:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I just popped in to see what was going on here, and was not surprised to still find the very same verbose wikilawyering, but ramped up a few notches; I just find myself being 100% in agreement with PCPP three posts above. I'd also point out the recommendation by asdfg to "including using propaganda in an official-looking table". Then our friend Olav comes along and scrubs out information in the table so cited to state media, to which asdfg utters his agreement. I rest my case, and I think I will stay away for quite a while longer. Ohconfucius 16:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, can you please explain your rationale for this edit? Thank you. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 13:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not want to actively participate in this discussion, but I will follow it, and I want to offer some initial questions and observations.

Basically the complaint seems to be that putting Xinhua's claims about the identity of the participants in a table makes them appear to be facts, or at least, more factual than claims that were part of a propaganda campaign. It is noted that above the table it states 'according to Xinhua', but the concern seems to be that the form of the table itself conveys a certain legitimacy, and therefore undue weight.

On this point, I would agree with Colipon who noted on the main discussion page that anything from either Falun Gong or the CCP should not be presented as factual (unless, presumably, it had third party support). So I think it needs to be clarified why propaganda is being presented as factual information in this case.

The other point is the CCP's anti-cult GONGO. Olaf and Asdfg12345 have argued that this GONGO is not a reliable source. Again, I think Colipon made the salient point: these sources can represent their own views (given certain conditions), but usually not make statements that are to be taken as facts about third parties. In this case, the GONGO is used to give a quote from a Falun Gong practitioner. That seems to be overstepping the stipulation about not making claims about third parties.

I will probably not say more than just the above. I wanted to articulate the arguments raised above in a clear way. I could not find the refuting arguments above, or I would have restated them here as well. I look forward to see how this is resolved. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This is easy to resolve. I can understand the concern about the prominence of these claims in the table - it simply makes them appear more factual. At the same time, the CCP's claims in this regard should be noted. So let's just put the claim that the individuals were practitioners in the prose, rather than the table. That should make everyone happy. —Zujine|talk 04:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That's probably a fair solution. I am glad that someone is willing to challenge the entrenched anti-Falun Gong orthodoxy that seeks to own the page and define the terms of legitimate debate. The point is not to remove this information from the encyclopedia, but to make sure that when people see it, it doesn't parade as fact. The only facts here are who said what. But jazzing it up in a table is like promoting one set of facts against another. Or shall we have a table based on information from Falun Gong sources? I think Zujine's change is suitable. And it's high time the propaganda at the end of the article was removed. The anti-cult group is not a reliable source on what Falun Gong practitioners are alleged to have said. If the propaganda claims of the CCP need to be included in some other way (like some phrases: "China believes the despicable immolation by "Falun Gong" shows the world the despicable nature of this mortal threat to socialism with Chinese characteristics" or whatever garbage they say), then fine, but not in the form of quotes from victims, I'd say. Doing that is propagandistic. I have more points:

• The neutrality of Reuters on a topic like this is questionable. In articles such as 'Senior party official expects Reuters to depict China fairly' the CCP makes clear that Reuters is in its pocket when it comes to reportage coming from China. (for example, Li Changchun, the propaganda chief in charge of vilifying Falun Gong, says: "Reuters should be a bridge in helping the world obtain a better understanding of China and report China as it is," - I think we all know what that is code for). I would suggest that for neutrality the fact that Reuters was the only agency allowed to do the interviews be noted, along with its cooperation with the CCP. This could be done in a single sentence, and would offer readers the background they need to evaluate the claims they are about to read. Note: this is not trying to keep any information out. It is trying to provide appropriate context.
• What is the relevance of the shoeshine man case? This article is about the Tiananmen Square self-immolation. The only connection is the tendentious claim by the Independent linking them. Does that warrant a long paragraph, based on one opinion of one journalist? I don't think so. That isn't an "aftermath" by any means. Again, there is absolutely no real evidence that he was a Falun Gong practitioner: a suicide note found by the police? Obviously they made it up. Unless some real evidence is presented for this, it's obviously POV-pushing, trying to link immolation to Falun Gong with no real evidence, quite typical of the Chinese media. Unless its inclusion can be properly justified, it should be removed since it is straight out of the CCP propaganda narrative that tries to connect immolation with Falun Gong. It's an association fallacy.
• the top image is biased. It also immediately sets the tone of the article to adopt the CCP's narrative. Encyclopedia's should be written with a mind to how readers are likely to interpret the information they are presented with. Consciously presenting information in a way that accords with the CCP's propaganda is not neutral reportage. I suggest some other image, or another way of resolving it. Over and out. --Asdfg12345 06:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave others to come up with something about Reuters - I don't know if it would actually be original research to include the kind of note you suggest, Asdfg12345. In a similar way to your desire to include the Luo Gan/He Zuoxiu connection on the Falungong main page, this seems to be aimed at changing the impression of the reader through background information. The point is that in neither this case nor the other does the source you refer to make clear why the connection matters. It seems like a spot of 'synthesis of published material that advances a position'. If you had a journalist or scholar saying that Reuters did these reports out of a desire to ingratiate itself with the CCP, the argument would make more sense.

But I agree on both the 'shoeshine man' and the top image. The first seems to make a tendentious argument with weak information, and the second is quite similar to how the CCP has presented this case.

I also wonder whether that whole box itself is biased, since it assumes the event was not staged (i.e., it's a 'civilian attack' of 'attack type: self-immolation' etc.), when really that is what the whole dispute is. In both cases one could imagine the presumed Falungong equivalent: an image of the woman being struck in the head with the cudgel, and instead of a 'civilian attack' box it's a 'Communist political hoax' box. Homunculus (duihua) 00:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Looking again, the only problem I have is how the box says 'attack type.' Whether it was an attack or a hoax is in dispute. If it said something neutral here, I wouldn't have a problem with the box, which I think adds a professional touch to the page. Homunculus (duihua) 00:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not here because I'm watching the page, but because of this deletion warning on my talk page. Would you care to reinstate the image, at least somewhere in the article? I fail to understand why one image is removed because of the comments of ONE devoted Falun Gong lobbyist, while others images - there are a string of them - taken from the same source are still used in the article purported to show a different view. This is wholly inconsistent and in my view violates WP:NPOV. Ohconfucius 01:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(←) Even Reuters is a lapdog of the CCP now? Give me a break. Colipon+(Talk) 12:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's typical of these transnational capitalist organisations - they get married to state capitalism when doing business in repressive countries, sacrificing the values that allow them to exist in the West. In any case, it's not an original synthesis if the claim is not made explicit that they reported the alleged immolation in a way to please Beijing. As long as a simple statement of background fact is made, that should be fine. It's merely a question of relevance. And it is of course relevant when the propaganda taskmaster has such a cosy relationship with this media organisation. Suppressing the information about Reuter's relationship with the CCP would be wrong. See 'Information suppression', which includes: "Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value." I propose a simple sentence like: "Reuters has a cooperative relationship with the propaganda department of the Party, and was the only foreign media group allowed to interview the victims." That is simple, factual, and relevant. —Zujine|talk 12:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

This would seem completely contradictory to the fact that many Chinese (and the Chinese government) criticized Reuters during events such as the Tibet uprising in 2008 and the Olympic Torch Relay. If Reuters was "warned" of this by Li Changchun as early as Falun Gong, perhaps they wouldn't have been so adamant to continue criticizing the Chinese gov't until 2009? Just my two cents. Colipon+(Talk) 13:10, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It's obviously a more complex situation than that; if Reuters did everything the same as a CCP media outlet, no one would find them credible. I think the point Zujine is making (and I agree with it) is that it would be noteworthy to mention that they share ties. To the extent that those ties influenced reporting on this incident, everyone can make up their own minds. I'm under no illusions about the integrity of a company like Reuters, though. --Asdfg12345 01:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think it is absolutely wrong, and typical of the fallacious arguments which are employed here to rule out or impugn sources unfavourable to FLG, to seek to remove or otherwise cast doubt on the Reuters coverage. The conditions, namely that they are to report only under supervision and without questions, the alleged participant in the hospital room, are clearly stated in the article. Although we know that the Chinese censor and stage-manage, this is something universal to most political parties, and happens almost everywhere, even in the hallowed West. I defy anyone who can show me just one political event that is not stage-managed. People are quite capable of making that judgement for themselves whether the PRC/CCP are manipulating, based on the reported circumstances - which, quite frankly, are more transparent that most reports coming from anywhere else even from in the free world. Ohconfucius 01:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, "anywhere else in the free world"? So China is free now? This point of view explains a lot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning Reuter's relationship with the CCP. As you say, people can make up their own mind. --Asdfg12345 01:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent changes

I made a couple revisions to the lead, both to attempt to shorten the length and better capture the nature of the dispute surrounding the event. I may make more changes in the morning, but here is a summary of the edits I’ve just made:

• In the first paragraph, the article presented Falun Gong’s narrative as centering on the fact that the teachings forbid suicide. This is far too simplistic a representation. Not only do they say they don’t endorse suicide, they go much further to conclude that the event was staged for the purpose of inciting violence against them and elevating support for the persecution policy.
• Added in the finding by Philip Pan that the two deceased self-immolators had never been seen practicing Falun Gong (contrary to Xinhua accounts)
• Added statement by IED
• Added two sentences that speak to the impact of the event on the persecution, including the Washington Post article about the sanctioning of torture in the aftermath of the self-immolation, and the fairly substantial increase in reported Falun Gong torture deaths in custody.

Generally it's quite problematic in this article that the CCP account gets an inordinate amount of play (so many references are to official sources), and yet there is no earnest attempt to represent the problems identified by Falun Gong sources. It's all either CCP or weird back-and-forth between scholars; like, in the 'dispute' section, the third and fourth paragraphs should be dramatically cut. They don't even really belong in that section. That section should describe a dissection of the event and other views. Not sure what to do about that in a hurry, but I'm first bringing the problem here for discussion. If there are issues, let's talk them through. I don't suppose these first round of additions will rankle anyone, though. They were sorely overdue. --Asdfg12345 07:48, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem? Let me add some more background. --Asdfg12345 16:24, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article in a while, but I'll dive into it for today. Given the controversy that has surrounded this topic, I suggest you proceed carefully. Regarding the dispute section, I don't have a serious problem with it as currently presented, but you are right that it does not present the substance of detractors' arguments; rather, it is just a back-and-forth between scholars and journalists concerning their assessments of competing claims. It certainly makes sense, then, that the article should include a section that presents the challenges to the official narrative, given that the official narrative is given substantial space, and Chinese government sources are cited at great length. I am not willing to make these changes myself, and don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject. One thing I would like to do, however, it contribute to the background section. Currently the section does not do anything to describe the suppression of Falun Gong, yet this event can only be understood in the context of the suppression. If the protesters were Falun Gong aspirants, then they self-immolated to protest persecution; if they were not, then the event was staged as part of a persecution, and either way, the event was publicized and propagandized to build support for persecution. So I will do that. Homunculus (duihua) 16:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I had not looked at this article in a long time, and now I know why. The whole tone of the piece is about validating the official narrative. Most information not in line with that has been suppressed. I find it extraordinary. Here I will number my diffs and explain my changes in each one. Note that I number the diffs, and each change will be explained by a letter, such that if there is a dispute with my interpretation, please refer to it like 1a, 2c, etc. This is the quickest way I can think of to identify the specific points of dispute and discussion. I leave this as a holding note while I assemble that explanation, could be another 30 minutes. It's expected, of course, that anyone disputing my changes actually identifies the specific points they dispute and writes why, since I have taken the trouble to do the same. The only grounds we have for a common working environment is this kind of process. Let me pause here, make a few more changes, and write up my explanations. I will include a bit more of a preface setting out the context of what we're dealing with before diving into the specific issues. Thank you. --Asdfg12345 17:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned, here are my explanations. They are thought out. Each time a piece of red appears I have lettered it, and each number corresponds to a specific diff. I did it this way because it would have been cumbersome to include only one change per diff, but if we want to do that, that’s fine. I don’t mind how we structure the change and discussion process, I just thought this the simplest. My basic motive here has been to add in more facts about what we know--the vast majority of the changes are along those lines. In some cases I noticed pieces of information that did not belong: they were excerpted from various places and arranged here to further the state narrative. That is not in line with Misplaced Pages policy. This happened in the background section, for example. It was even worse before, as I recall. I've attempted to straighten that out, too. Lastly, I ask that the discussion be conducted strictly according to good manners and wiki policy. Please explain which parts of my changes are disagreeable and do a better job. I'm editing totally in good faith, and may well have made a mistake somewhere here. I'm sure to have overlooked much, at least. I await some sincere interlocutors.

1. 1 A) Add key claims to lead. This is a crucial part of the whole story and cannot be left out. The event happened within the context of a massive persecution and this should not be forgotten or moved to the side. B) The video was not “questioned” by NTD, it was dissected in slow motion. I don’t know why we would want to change that. C) The fact that the protesters were identified not as Falun Gong people by Pan is crucial and should be higher in the piece. This is the kind of info suppression that needs to be cleared away. (Note that the diff here is a bit messy, because paragraphs were moved down. I will do my best to avoid this in future, because the changes are thus obscured. But the rest of the information was not altered much or at all.)
2. 2 This language was provocative and nonsensical. Let’s just state the facts as they stand and not use hyper-language to score propaganda points. Facts, facts, facts. In a story where so much information is deliberately obscured, the best service we can provide readers is to simply state the known facts in a clear manner.
3. 3 The video footage was deconstructed, not questioned.
4. 4 This is not ad ad-hom attack. This is a known fact about this poor woman that should not be obscured. It goes far to the point that she may not have been a practitioner. Information that doesn’t agree with the state narrative should not be suppressed.
5. 5 A) Remove scripture, add persecution background: the relevance of the scripture to the protest has been severely overplayed, and including it so prominently in the background is highly tendentious. Strictly speaking it is not part of the background, it is merely a small part of the interpretation of a few observers. If there’s someone with a background in Chinese religion (not gittings) who makes this link, that could be discussed, but at the moment we have primary research and a tendentious link, it looks quite poor. B) “broke the news”? They merely told their version of events, in fact. C) Properly relaying what Falun Gong press statement said, it was more than the originally emaciated recap. D) Note what the Laogai Research Foundation actually said on the topic, which was more than what they were quoted as saying. The background here is key. E) Porter’s views are important for understanding and context. No clue why they were left out…
6. 6 This is the deconstruction of the footage. Not sure why it was left out. People need this information to make an informed choice about what happened. You’ll notice that my changes are along the lines I mentioned earlier: adding facts, being circumspect about opinions. Facts count for so much more in such a contested case, and the purpose of the page should not be to make people think one way or another about the incident, but provide what information is required for people to make up their own minds. My edits aim to help with this difficult task. So it is with noting the inconsistencies found by the False Fire documentary. These were actually in the article unproblematically some time ago. I don’t know why or how that changed.
7. 7 A) Falun Gong leadership expected people to demonstrate? That is a wildly inaccurate use of language. I have made it say the truth, just that practitioners protested there. B) What relevance has Li’s statement on supernormal powers to the incident in question? C) What relevance has Li’s “marked change in tone” after the persecution to the incident in question? None, apparently, and therefore the information has no proper place here.
8. 8 A) The first change is less radical than it looks. It is merely to condense the different views to a simple paragraph. They can be elaborated on in all their erudition later, but the lead is not the place for that, per WP:LEDE, which explains clearly how leads are meant to introduce the topic and set out the main controversies, rather than delve into details. B) Remove the graf on the fate of the survivors, this is all from propaganda sources and is not strictly relevant to the actual incident itself. What the CCP did afterwards can be explored, sure, but it is not the key point of contention. The inclusion of this information here just reinforces the official propaganda narrative, in fact, and serves no other purpose. C) I simplified slightly that there was an enormous campaign of propaganda to follow, using various sources. This is a pretty crucial piece of the puzzle. D) Add two NYT sources. E) Sima Nan’s criticism was not notable at the time (I think TSTF went through this a lot on the talk pages a long time ago) nor is cited here; secondly, the picketing was peaceful and this should be acknowledged. F) Note Jiang set down the order. G) The massive propaganda campaign part is important as part of the background to what happened. Again, an important fact that was somehow dismissed in place of speculation. This, like all my other edits, have attempted to correct the balance between opinion/speculation and fact/what we know.--Asdfg12345 17:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

We tried working on this simultaneously earlier, so I decided to go elsewhere and wait to see what you produced. I removed a couple things ("enormous" propaganda campaign, and the WOIPFG analysis in the background section). I will go through other edits more carefully later. In general your changes are reasonable, but I would suggest there are at least two outstanding issues of considerable significance. First, I see that you made an attempt to clean up the lede, but it's still quite long. Second, I have a much bigger problem with this article in that it contains so much original synthesis of so many sources, and I fear that the selection of quotations and opinions given by third parties may not, in fact, be representative, but instead that third parties have been quoted selectively to advance a particular narrative. For instance, Ownby is quoted as saying that it's plausible that the self-immolators were practitioners. I checked this reference, and found that he describes the alternative (that the participants were paid actors) as being equally plausible, and observed that it is impossible to know for sure what their identities are. To resolve this issue, I suggest that we find a credible source or two that clearly and cogently articulates both sides of this story, and use that as a guide to explaining the dispute. A clear version of the counter-narrative does not exist in the current article. Homunculus (duihua) 18:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair comment. I have been perhaps overly focused on the detail and did not consider the larger picture of how the article was operating to present the various ideas, though I got the feeling that the state narrative was quite dominant. I'm happy with the changes you suggest; we can just go back and forth doing changes, as long as you're OK with that. If you don't take offense to a revision, I won't, and we can beaver away at refining the information available and adding new information. --Asdfg12345 02:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I've added further clean up, as Asdfg's changes only added further neutrality issues. First of all, he radically changed the intro so that FLG sources such as False Fire are given prominence, along with further pro-FLG sources to give that particular POV undue weight. I don't see why Schechter and Pan's opinions hold more weight than Ownby and ter Haar's - there is no unanimous agreement on the status of the immolators. Secondly, relevant scriptures from Li Hongzhi were removed entirely, downplaying Li's positions on the incident, and replaced with further criticism of the PRC government, which I don't find adhering to NPOV policies. Lastly, the large amount of original research from False Fire gives a serious undue weight issue here - particularly since it was not made by an independent party.--PCPP (talk) 16:59, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

PCPP, you might as well have simply said: "No, I disagree, those edits suck, I'm undoing all of them." That's all you've done, in fact. You have not addressed in substance any of the explanations above. You continually do this. You are a menace to any serious editing of the article. You turn everything related to this subject into a battle. Homunculus and I were discussing the changes in a cooperative atmosphere above, but your edit completely negates this consensus we had formed on our changes. You are simply barging in with what amount to large reverts and minimal explanation. Your explanation amounts to "pro-FLG" and "POV undue weight," which is entirely a political judgement that skirts around any critical analysis of the central issues. This is entirely typical of you. I wonder if Homunculus has any more patience than me, I would be surprised if anyone could. What you're doing is so disruptive.

And now let me respond to what I can scrape off your argument:

1. the introduction needs to make clear that there is a strong counter-narrative to the state narrative. Both these versions of events should be presented front and center, for the reader to choose from. The counter-narrative has stronger sources than the state narrative, if you'll bother to look closely at the sources. It is not feasible that it does not appear strongly in the lead, along with the state assumptions of the identity of the people.
2. Who said that Schechter and Pan's opinions hold more weight than Ownby and ter Haar's? The point is to keep the lead clear and simple. The detailed arguments can be addressed later.
3. I addressed the question of Li's scriptures above, you have not responded, and I'm not going to repeat myself. You are saying that including the background of repression is a "criticism of the PRC government"? This is propaganda and nonsense. Criticism of the PRC government would be stuff like "The PRC government really sucks, it's so bad, it's terrible," whereas reports from human rights organizations about torture deaths and prison sentences is factual information that is highly relevant.
4. False Fire won an award and has been widely cited by secondary sources, and stands as a clear articulation of the holes that are in the report. They are factual observations of the CCTV footage itself. Trying to suppress that information here is not a very funny joke.

You should not revert again. Discuss the above, instead. I can compromise, I regularly do and have, but you need to convince us. --Asdfg12345 17:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

1. Sure, assuming there is something "for the reader to choose from" when it is heavily one sided and and implied that the immolation if fabricated, when sources taken as whole do not state as such at all. You simply try to inundate the lede with critical souces from Pan and Schechter, while completely neglect sources such as Ownby and ter Haar by removing them from the lede.
2. You did. You said The fact that the protesters were identified not as Falun Gong people by Pan is crucial and should be higher in the piece., a claim that has not been substantiated by other sources. And the excessive material on FLG torture does not belong here, its a coattrack attempting to create a misleading portrayal - it has occurred indepedenently of the self immolation, and has already been noted elsewhere.
3. You claimed that Li's scriptures are "overplayed", yet that's merely your personal opinion as a FLG practitioner. Suddenly, when it comes to critical souces, you act as if removing them is "suppression of information".
4. More baseless claims. Awards matter little here, as opposed to the fact that A) False Fire's producers are closely related to FLG, and B) it's own "analysis" has yet been disected by FLG scholars. Putting them here on its entirety violates WP:UNDUE and WP:OR.--PCPP (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

This is why I was reluctant to get involved. PCPP, you are being disruptive. I recommend you stop reverting, arguing only that the content was too 'pro-Falun Gong.' Factual, relevant information is not invalidated by the fact that it supports or aligns with the views of Falun Gong. Nor does this make the information biased or one-sided. You would be a much better member of this community if, instead of reverting against emerging consensus and removing solid content, you contributed original research. Now, a few specific points:

• In editing this article, we cannot pretend that the details of event are not heavily contested. The counter-narrative, which posits that the self-immolation was staged, is backed by evidence from numerous sources. The Chinese government and its media apparatus is the only party that stands by its particular narrative; no independent researchers have been allowed to research the veracity of their claims regarding the identity and motivations of the victims. When independent researchers have attempted to do this, as Philip Pan did, they found flaws in the official narrative. The lede should reflect the basic facts of the event, the Chinese government story, and the view of detractors (not only Falun Gong) that the event could have been staged by the government, for what purpose, and to what end.
• You claim that mention of Falun Gong scripture is relevant, but information about the suppression of Falun Gong is not. I disagree. The inclusion of Falun Gong scripture is a stretch to me. It strikes me as an attempt by some observers to explain why Falun Gong practitioners self-immolated, but there is no consensus that the self-immolators were Falun Gong practitioners. I am not against including some discussion of the scripture in the dispute section as part of a speculative debate on why Falun Gong practitioners might have self-immolated, but it does not belong in the background section. The persecution of Falun Gong, by contrast, does have a strong and direct connection to the event. As I mentioned before, whatever we believe about the self-immolation, it can only be understood in the context of suppression. If the protesters were Falun Gong, they were protesting persecution. If they were not, the self-immolation itself was a part of persecution. And either way, the event led to a significant escalation of violence against Falun Gong. Your statement that the self-immolation is unrelated to the torture of Falun Gong adherents is untenable.
• The relationship between False Fire producers and Falun Gong is not very important to me, and I'm not sure why it matters to you. I don't judge people on the basis of their religion. What matters to me is the quality of their evidence. The evidence in their documentary was quite solid, and was overwhelmingly drawn through analyzing CCTV and Xinhua reportage. You say that FLG scholars have discredited its analysis? Where?
• I am beginning to suspect that you never read Ownby's comments on the self-immolation, as you have continually referenced him as standing on the opposite end of the debate as, say, Pan and Schechter. So for your convenience, here is the entirety of his analysis. I suggest this could serve as a useful guide for us in determining how to assign due weight to different sides of the debate:

Fire in the Square

In the midafternoon of 22 January, the eve of the Chinese New Year, five alleged Falun Gong practitioners doused themselves in gasoline and set themselves ablaze in Tian'anmen. One man, Wang Jingdong, aged fifty-one, sat down in a posture resembling the lotus position employed by Falun Gong practitioners (and other groups as well) and remained seated as the flames consumed him. The other four, Liu Chunling, thirty-six, and her daughter Liu Siying, twelve, and another mother-daughter pair, Hao Huichun (in her fifties) and Chen Guo (nineteen), remained erect after setting themselves on fire, running across the square with their hands raised in a manner that recalls part of the basic Falun Gong repertoire of exercises. Security officials extinguished the flames as rapidly as possible, and only one of the four, Liu Chunling, died on the square. The others were taken by ambulance to area hospitals. A CNN camera crew was on the square at the time, but their film was confiscated by security officials and not returned.

Xinhua offered a brief report of the events that very evening—but only to foreign reporters and news outlets. Nothing was revealed of the self- immolation within China proper until more than a week later, on 31 January, when a thirty-minute special edition of Forum, which follows the nightly news on CCTV, revealed the grisly details to the Chinese public. These details included the fact that there were two other alleged Falun Gong practitioners who were in (or in the vicinity of) Tian'anmen Square who had intended to set themselves alight with their fellow practitioners, but who had had second thoughts at the last minute. All of the practitioners were from Kaifeng, Henan, and had been "hoodwinked," in the language of the news report, by Li Hongzhi and Falun Gong, imagining that they would ascend immediately to heaven. Unsurprisingly, the feature focused on the youngest members, particularly twelve-year-old Liu Siying, whose charred body could hardly fail to solicit a reaction. Liu was filmed crying out for her mother and for her uncle (Chinese often refer to any older male as an "uncle," regardless of the existence of a blood relationship), and she explained, in interviews conducted in the hospital, that she had believed that there would be no pain and that she would be ushered quickly into paradise, "a wonderful world with gold everywhere." Others who burned themselves spoke of betrayal at the hands of the master (although Wang Jingdong apparently remained faithful, talking about a "final test" to be organized by Li Hongzhi). The report also included interviews with shocked relatives and repeated the general and specific themes of the anti-Falun Gong campaign well known to most Chinese.

Falun Gong representatives from outside of China immediately contested the accuracy of the reports coming from the mainland. Over and over again, they insisted—correctly—that there is no sanction for violence in Li Hongzhi's writings or in Falun Gong practice, whether it be violence directed at someone else or at oneself. In addition, these diaspora practitioners—together with a certain number of skeptical foreign journalists—began to point out a number of anomalies which might lead one to wonder if the events were as straight-forward as Xinhua had portrayed them. For instance, why were the police officers patrolling the area equipped with fire extinguishers, allowing them to put out the flames relatively quickly? Fire extinguishers are not standard equipment for most police officers on the beat, in China or elsewhere. And how did Xinhua manage to produce a report (for foreign consumption) so quickly, communicating the events to the outside world only a few hours after they occurred? Normally, the process of vetting and authorization takes considerably longer. These very basic questions suggested to some that Chinese authorities were ready for the events that transpired on the afternoon of 22 January.

Over the succeeding weeks, other questions were added. Philip Pan, a journalist for the Washington Post, traveled to Kaifeng, found where Liu Chunling and Liu Siying had lived, and talked with neighbors to learn that no one was aware that they were Falun Gong practitioners and that Liu Chunling had a troubled past and present; apparently, she had struck her elderly mother and her daughter, and worked as an escort in a local nightclub. Perhaps she turned—secretly—to Falun Gong as a result of her personal difficulties, but this is hardly a typical profile of a practitioner. Foreign journalists were not allowed to interview those recovering in hospitals, and neither were their relatives. Xinhua's and other official accounts of the events mentioned suicide notes left by certain practitioners (which rather strangely survived the fire), but were reticent about publishing more than a few sentences from documents which, they said, sometimes ran to a length of several pages.

A later Falun Gong analysis of the film of the incident broadcast by Chinese authorities pointed out other questions or inconsistencies. Wang Jingdong, for example, appeared on close analysis to be holding a plastic bottle which remained intact in spite of the conflagration. Falun Gong's reconstruction of the footage seems to reveal as well that Liu Chunling was killed not by the flames, but by a heavy object striking her head. The group's analysis points out also that the interview with the twelve-year-old Liu Siying supposedly occurred on the heels of a tracheotomy, which would have made it very difficult for Liu to talk (she spoke clearly and even sang in the report). In short, Falun Gong's analysis suggests that the event was staged from beginning to end: those who supposedly set themselves on fire were not Falun Gong practitioners, they did not perhaps set themselves on fire (or did so imagining that the flames would be put out immediately), and the voices heard in the supposed interviews from the hospitals were perhaps not those of the injured.

Although the arguments of Falun Gong practitioners seem cogent, it is very difficult to arrive at a final judgment about the self-immolation. If those who set themselves on fire were not practitioners, then who were they? Where would Chinese authorities have found "actors" (including children) willing to play such roles? What would have been their motivation? I suppose that it is possible that there are desperate people in China (and elsewhere) who will do anything for money (which would go to their families in this case, one supposes, unless the authorities had promised to rescue them before the flames could do harm). Or the entire event could have been staged. But it seems just as possible that those who set themselves on fire might have been new or unschooled Falun Gong practitioners, had discovered and practiced Falun Gong on their own (and badly) in the post-suppression period, and, for whatever reason, decided to make the ultimate sacrifice.

This seems like a pretty level analysis to me, and as you can see, nowhere does he "discredit" the Falun Gong claims; he actually devotes more space to explaining the inconsistencies in the official story than he does to repeating it. On another note, I would normally be inclined to try to temper Asdfg's contributions and tone them down. Were it not for the need to defend, say, the relevance of information on the torture of Falun Gong, I would much prefer to be doing that.Homunculus (duihua) 19:38, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Asdfg, you edited the lede to refer to an increase in alleged Falun Gong torture deaths following the self-immolation. Can you prove there is a correlation? It seems a bit tenuous, particularly considering its prominent position in the article. Homunculus (duihua) 05:27, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I noticed a moment ago that PCPP reverted Asdfg's changes again. Perhaps it was not clear that I support the content of most of Asdfg's changes. Where this is not the case, we can at least work in a productive manner to arrive at improvements through substantive and civil discussion. I am not the slightest bit fond of reverting, but my aversion to it is not as strong as my affection for meaningful discussion, so in the interest of the latter, I reinstated the previous (consensus) version. Homunculus (duihua) 05:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I took note of Homunculus's suggestions and agreed with his arguments to restore the material on torture. I made the following changes: A)Shortened the lede to four paragraphs, including the intro; statement about CCTV coverage; fate of the survivors; and the resulting campaign against FLG. The detailed third party analysis, in my opinion, belongs to the body. B)Readded the material on Li's scriptures, which has been noted by Time a few paragraphs down, but is open to discussion. C)Removed the giant False Fire box - the CCTV section already detailed False Fire's arguments, and the dialogue would only add further undue weight.--PCPP (talk) 06:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Just catching up with this now. Are you sure that's all you did, PCPP? This is a diff of all your changes--there appear to be much more than the A-C you provide here. I support a clear statement of the hoax narrative, whether it is in a breakout box or elsewhere. But there should be a concise, point by point summary of the apparent holes in the official story. I would also ask PCPP a favor, if he would, since I am having some trouble picking through that diff: can you please just paste here below all the things you deleted from the article (you took it from 51,624b to 48,509b--that is surely more than just the False Fire section)? That would be nice, thank you. (I might also add that I feel a little sorry for the other two interlocutors--you spent so much time writing all that, but PCPP responded so concisely. When I get more time I will try to look closely at what changes he actually made, unless someone is first.) —Zujine|talk 23:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Please note that PCPP just basically undid everything he didn't like, which both myself and Homunculus were discussing above. He threw out five sentences to justify massive changes. It seems we are the only ones who care to discuss things, whereas PCPP prefers to simply put his head down and try to crash through? This is battleground-like behaviour. I will not revert again--let me clarify that now, but I know that PCPP simply ignores discussion if there are no edits to back it up, and I understand that I have the support of other editors in doing so. If others do not agree with my reverting PCPP, please let me know. I am trying to take a bit of the brunt of this, the situation is so damn unreasonable. Upcoming is a proper explanation of why what he did was wrong and should be disagreeable to anyone who wants a reasonable page. --Asdfg12345 05:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is my analysis of three diffs that you did. What I did was, firstly, revert, then restore the more reasonable edits you made. The three diffs below are what I dispute. If you are going to engage in the discussion, PCPP, please do so properly. I will not revert you anymore on this page, on these disputes. I’ll leave that to others, so it’s clear that you are being a menace not to just me, but everyone trying to edit in a normal environment here.

• You shortened the lede, but in the process removed any mention of third parties who doubt the veracity of the CCP’s narrative (Schechter, Pan, Porter, and HRW all disappeared in your edits). You made it seem that the dispute lies entirely between the CCP and Falun Gong, but this is not the case. Ownby says it is not the case; he draws attention to credible, serious problems in the official story that were often ‘’not’’ presented by Falun Gong sources, but by Western journalists. You also removed any mention that self-immolation or suicide is not part of Falun Gong doctrine, and deleted two separate sources which noted that the CCP narrative is impossible to verify. You then proceeded to add a paragraph of CCP propaganda about the trial and sentencing of the participants, suggesting that your primary motivation was not to shorten the lede, but to ensure that it better reflects the Party’s narrative of events.
• You removed the False Fire sidebar, claiming the information was redundant. Some of it was, I agree, but not all. In addition to removing that information, you also removed the subsequent paragraph without discussion, which dealt with Liu Chunling and her daughter. You did not note this in your edit summaries, but it appears that you removed all mention of Philip Pan’s investigation into the identities of these two self-immolators who were killed. These individuals were not Falun Gong practitioners. Pan’s represented the only attempt at independent investigation into the CCP’s claims, and it revealed a crucial flaw in the official narrative. Pan’s findings are widely cited, and appeared in both the International Herald Tribune and the Washington Post. Is that why you removed all mention of it?
• - In this edit you restored information from the Jensen source that has nothing to do with the immolation incident. Specifically, the parts talking about Falun Gong’s views of “the apocalypse” etc. are not directly related to the immolation (and, incidentally, they disagree with Ownby’s analysis). This is a bow that is being pulled far too far. No direct connection means you can’t just randomly quote the words to make Falun Gong look weird, or crazy, or likely to teach people to burn themselves. To put it mildly that’s called an original synthesis (strongly, it would be called propaganda).
• Finally, I made an edit changing two things in the lead. That is pretty self-explanatory in the diff. --Asdfg12345 05:37, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oh, and now I see why he deleted Pan like that. Because his reportage of how the participants were not Falun Gong practitioners is "a claim that has not been substantiated by other sources"! !! That's all I have to say. ! --Asdfg12345 06:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

• The intro is simply too long and fails WP:LEDE, and Putting the material on FLG doctrines there violates on WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR. Extensive discussion by third parties belong in the "dispute" section. The intro currently states the events that occurred, Chinese govt and FLG's separate claims, fate of the survivors, and the resulting crackdown on FLG. It's important to point out the Chinese govt's claims per NPOV, and not just because you think its propaganda. I have since shortened several sentences and readded HRW and Schechter's observations.
• The basic arguments made by False Fire, is already found in the "China Central Television video footage" section with 2 images. Putting a giant dialogue box is simply providing undue weight per WP:UNDUE. The paragraph that follows was removed by mistake, I have restored it.
• The Li scripture on "Beyond the Limits of Forbearance" is important, as in the subsequent paragraph, The Guardian and Time, as well as Ownby all noted that Li's message on the ordeal of FLG may be misinterpreted by individual practitioners as a call of martyrdom, per the "dispute" sections, where I moved it.
• Your last edit is simply WP:POINT. The immolation is already heavily disputed, so why add a further "disputed" discription to Liu's death?--PCPP (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

RFC: Relevance of sources

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Does the disputes sources (Li Hongzhi's scripture and False Fire analysis) in the article warrant inclusion?--PCPP (talk) 14:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The sources are as follows:

Li Hongzhi's scripture, which some analysts in the following paragraph argued to have sent a misleading message to practitioners:

On 1 January 2001, Li published "Beyond the Limits of Forbearance", in which he wrote that persecution of the Fa – an expression used by Falun Gong to describe itself – by "evil" – meaning the Chinese Communist Party – could no longer be tolerated: "Forbearance does not mean tolerating evil beings. Completely eliminating the evil is for Fa-rectification, and not a matter of personal cultivation. In personal cultivation, there is usually no going beyond the limits of Forbearance." Jensen and Weston (2006) noticed a marked change in the tone of Li Hongzhi's messages following the ban: practitioners who remained steadfast against the oppression would survive the apocalypse while those who succumbed to pressure would not. Those who died or had suffered were promised "consummation", or enlightenment. Specifically, Li wrote that "any fear is itself a barrier that prevents you from reaching consummation", that "the process of enduring is but a brief moment", and that those who "have hidden themselves ... have sided in their understanding with evil beings."

An analysis of "False Fire", a documentary produced by a FLG-associated group that deconstructed the events, in its own box:

False Fire, a NTDTV documentary that deconstructs the event points out several inconsistencies in the Chinese Government's version of the story, including:

• Liu Chunling, the only self-immolator who died on the spot appears to fall from being bludgeoned on the head by a man in military suit. The programme argues that Liu could have died from a severe blow to the head.
• The self immolators appear to be wearing several layers of, possibly fire-protective, clothing and masks. The hair and bottle of gasoline at the feet of an alleged self-immolator is intact, although this should have caught fire first.
• Police, who normally are not known to carry fire extinguishers on duty, appeared to have used almost 25 pieces of fire-fighting equipment on hand on the day of the self-immolations. The nearest building is 10 minutes away and footage shows that only two police vehicles were at the scene. The flames were put out in less than a minute's time.
• The camera of the CCTV footage zooms in on the scene as it unfolds; surveillance cameras in Tiananmen Square are usually fixed.
• Wang Jindong shouts comments that do not form part of Falun Dafa teachings; his posture, including hand position and sitting position, does not reflect the full or half lotus position required in Falun Dafa exercises.
• The hospital treatment of the victims, as recorded by Chinese state media, is inconsistent with proper care of severe burn victims: for instance, patients were not kept in sterile rooms.
• The girl who allegedly underwent a tracheotomy appeared to be able to speak and sing clearly mere days after the surgery.

Another editor wanted to remove the Li Hongzhi scripture because he feels that it violates original research, and paints a negative image of FLG, while I argued for the removal of the False Fire box because of undue weight and SPS, and that the documentary's arguments has already been covered in the CCTV footage paragraph along with third party analysis of the footage in question. Furthermore, article's intro is currently disputed as well, particular in the areas of due weight to certain sources.--PCPP (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

PCPP, you are misrepresenting the stated reason that said 'other editor' argues against the inclusion of the Jensen & Weston analysis. The reasoning, as I understand it is not that it is original research, but that it's original synthesis, and furthermore is of dubious relevance. There is no proof of any connection between Li's scripture on Jan 1 2001 and the self-immolation. Some observers (journalists) have pointed to the scripture as an explanation of why Falun Gong practitioners might have been confused and may have turned to self-immolation. But the problem, for those uninitiated in the details of this discussion, is that there are serious doubts about whether the self-immolators were actually Falun Gong practitioners. In any case, I think it is okay to mention that some journalists have speculated on the possible significance of this scripture, but it should appear only in that context; otherwise it is original synthesis. So too is the inclusion of Jensen & Weston. What relevance does Falun Gong's purported views on the apocalypse have to the self-immolation? No only is there no connection, but their analysis of Falun Gong scripture is at odds with that of Ownby (arguably the leading scholar on Falun Gong, who has actually performed field work among its practitioners). It appears you are attempting to synthesize material in such a way as to suggest that acts of self-immolation are somehow justified in Falun Gong doctrine, but Falun Gong scholars argue that it is not.

As to the false fire box, I do have a problem with redundancy, and I would favor its removal on the condition that the important points in the box are represented in the body of the article. Homunculus (duihua) 15:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Homunculus's assessment that the chief argument you make here is bunkum. The annoying thing is that it takes quite a while to work that out. I had to scan a dozen diffs, read through thousands of words in commentary an explanation, and check three or four sources before becoming familiar enough with the basis of the dispute and feeling that I was qualified to comment on it. It is probably this enormous overhead, coupled with the rancorous atmosphere, that has so far kept outside editors away. Let's take the good chance we have here and not ruin it.

I am going to revert PCPP's edit. Here are some reasons why:
1: When I look at this, all I see is a revert action, negating all the discussion that has gone on.
2: I notice that there are several additions that make no sense, such as removing Noah Porter's analysis, and re-including the mention of Sima Nan. Now, we know that Sima Nan was not a prominent critic of Falun Gong until after the crackdown, and secondly, he is not even mentioned in the sources. So here is a smoking gun of PCPP doing a revert that introduced unsourced information; granted that it is only a name, but it shows that he simply reverts first and talks later, which makes it a big problem for the rest of us who want to do good work on these pages.
3: There has simply been no response as to why the scripture speculation belongs in background and not in dispute. It seems to clearly belong in the dispute area, since putting it in background is a synthesis and all. Also, after looking at the Jensen and Weston piece, I have to agree with the assessment that there is no clearly stated connection between what is quoted above and what appears in the article. The original source does not posit a direct relationship. Putting it here is therefore misleading. In the version I am reverting to, there is a reduction in the length, but not the core argument, and the only thing we lose is the original synthesis.
4: We can talk about reducing the lead separately. There's no urgency on that. I suspect 'shortening the lead' is an excuse for 'deleting things I don't like'.
5: I also feel the same way with Homunculus on how annoying this all is. I would prefer to work with intelligent and interested editors who can compromise, know their sources, and engage in a proper debate. Instead I feel that what is being used are force tactics and obfuscation of the arguments. It is most unsatisfying.
6: I agree with not having the False Fire information in a break-out box. I am going to put it into the text now, in a sub-section that specifically addresses the hoax narrative. --—Zujine|talk 19:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Woah, I just noticed some things in my changes. It seems that PCPP actually reverted at some point, while I was making changes, and that I reverted back in the midst of other changes (I had several browser windows open and suspected I had gotten confused with the timing). I do not like reverting. I thought the one that I did would be sufficient to send a signal that PCPP needs to slow down. Now let me make this proposal, which may be seen as a bit more palatable: Asdfg12345 and PCPP should not revert on this page again, and if they have controversial edits, they should discuss them first. That way you can both be on equal footing. Let me know how each of you finds this proposal. I noticed in PCPP's edit that he said something about the RfC. But opening an RfC doesn't mean you just freeze the page the way you like it. Anyway. These pages are on probation, you know? --—Zujine|talk 19:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much, for completely ignoring my arguments, again.

• I removed Noah Porter because his claim was duplicated and already present in another paragraph:

Anthropologist Noah Porter says that even if the participants considered themselves to be practitioners, they are no more representative of Falun Gong than Christianity is represented by people "who shoot and bomb abortion clinics."

vs

University of South Florida masters student Noah Porter commented that other religions have extremists too, and that even if the participants had been practitioners, they were not necessarily representative.

• Plenty of sources such as The Guardian and Time commented on Li's scripture, and Ownby even speculated that it may be misinterpreted as call to martyrdom. Here's the next paragraph:

The Guardian commented that Li Hongzhi's new scripture released on 1 January 2001, Beyond the Limits of Forbearance, had confused his supporters. Matthew Forney in Time magazine believed the message had spread into China via the internet and informal networks of followers, and reached more radical practitioners there. According to The Guardian, Falun Gong headquarters in New York admitted ten days after the release of the scripture that "certain disciples had some extreme interpretations we are going to resort to violence", and asserted that Li's message merely meant time had come to let the truth be known about China's atrocities. Jensen and Weston remarked it was clear from Li Hongzhi's messages that he advocated martyrdom over prudence, and that "if the Chinese authorities lit the fire, Li just as clearly fanned the flames." David Ownby believes that the brief message was "difficult to interpret": it somewhat resembled a "call to arms" against what Li described as "evil beings who no longer have any human nature or righteous thoughts". Ownby said nobody he talked to had seen it as a "green light" for violent action; "ut a practitioner at the end of his or her rope in China could certainly see as an endorsement for martyrdom, and perhaps choose his or her own means to achieve that." ter Haar (2001) postulated that former Buddhists may have brought with them the "respectable Buddhist tradition of self-immolation as a sacrifice to the Buddha".

And not even one paragraph is allowed on Li's scripture? What bullocks.

• And here's the entire paragraph on False Fire's claims which already exists, in case you missed it.

According to an initial Falun Gong press statement, "Much remains unclear and unknown about the circumstances surrounding the incident", including what took place in the week between the incident and when the "fully engineered news articles and television programs" were released. Subsequently, Falun Gong-affiliated New Tang Dynasty Television produced a programme called False Fire, claiming a number of inconsistencies in the accounts from various state sources compared with the video broadcast nationally. Issues and discrepancies mentioned included why the participants' hair and the gasoline-filled bottles did not catch fire, the presence of fire extinguishers, whether Wang Jindong was sitting or standing when he shouted, and the medical treatment and ultimate death of the 12-year-old girl. In a frame-by-frame replay of parts of the state media footage, the film commentary argued that a man wearing military clothing struck Liu Chunling on the head with an object, thus causing her death. Falun Gong lobby group, the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong, stated that the Speech Processing Laboratory at National Taiwan University analysed the broadcasts, and claimed that the first 'Wang Jindong' on CCTV was not the same person who appeared the second and third times.

Is that not enough? There's even two images that illustrate the disputes. Why the need for a dedicated section on False Fire when it's already been covered? It's even sourced from the FLG umbrella organization WOIPFG, which fails WP:SPS

• Your "improved" lede now completely removes any mention of the fate of the survivors, while now implying that the self-immolation is a hoax. Why the undue emphasis on FLG's teachings on suicide and Pan's report? He supposedly interviewed a neighbor that that made the allegations, so that proves the hoax accusations 100%? Another reporter Francesco Sisci as well as Time argued that the event was caused by misguided individuals and the fractured leadership, while ter Haar compared the self-immolation with the Buddhist concept of self-sacrifice. Why aren't their views featured in the lede?--PCPP (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's see...
1: I removed Porter's duplication. That's not a big deal to fix.
2: Look up. I have put a slice through the statements that are not related to the immolation, and I have italicised the statement that has been taken way out of context. By putting a touch of original research, followed by a portion or the analysis of a respected scholar, you create propaganda by suggesting something that was not implied.
3: This is a question of due weight. You would like to give more weight to the speculation surrounding the incident, speculations about Li Hongzhi's teachings and what have you. I, and I believe some others, would like to see a proper evaluation of the factual information available. You show how there is some of that summarised in one paragraph. There actually needs to be a proper section that properly outlines the counter narrative.
4: I've just moved a paragraph up from the teachings part.
5: I notice you removed the whole counter-narrative again. Good job! I'll get back to this later. —Zujine|talk 20:29, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

I have decided for the time being to ignore disruptive edits and revert wars and proceed with efforts to improve the article. There has been consensus between Asdfg, myself, and Zujine that there is a need for a clear articulation of the counter-narrative (or other evidentiary flaws in the official narrative). A couple attempts have been made to achieve this, but so far they seem to fall short of the mark. Asdfg reinserted the old False Fire sidebar that laid out some points of contention, but I think we're in agreement that it was largely redundant. Zujine created a sub-section dealing with challenges to the official narrative (which PCPP then inexplicably renamed 'government narrative,' which is precisely the opposite of what it is), but its positioning in the article is somewhat odd, and it still falls short of the task of providing a cogent explanation of challenges. Another issue we have is that the section on CCTV footage articulates many of the challenges to the government story, but by no stretch does it include all of them, and the title of the section does not accord with the content. I would like to propose changing the title of the CCTV footage section to Zujine's "Challenges to the official narrative," and writing in a clear articulation of the issues and the conclusions reached by Falun Gong, Schechter, etc. I will also propose that similar content currently residing in the dispute section be removed, and the section be renamed to 'assessments,' 'speculation,' or something like that. At the end of the day, that's really all that will be left in that section—journalists and scholars offering speculation on the event. I'm going to be bold and start working toward these changes. Please weigh in with any intelligent, productive suggestions or edits you may have. Be warned that I will not necessarily heed belligerent or disruptive comments.Homunculus (duihua) 20:53, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I made some changes just now as per my comment above. Namely, I changed the section previously titled CCTV footage to "Challenges to the Chinese government narrative." I attempted to consolidate all related information in this section, taking Ownby's account as my guide. This means that the change is accompanied by the reorganization and migration of some content, as I had to move some things out of this section, pull other content in, and delete some things that were duplicated or extraneous. I hope the diff is not too intimidating; aside from some new writing in the 'challenges' section, I did my best to keep other things intact.

I need to return to real life now, but this is far from being finished. There is still some redundancy between the new section and the 'dispute' section, and other outstanding issues. I will step back for now though, and wait to see the response from other editors, who will no doubt be civil.Homunculus (duihua) 21:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me, I just fixed up some of the section titles. I didn't look carefully but I agree that streamlining the presentation has been lacking for a long while. It is much clearer; well done. —Zujine|talk 21:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The changes are mostly OK, in my view, although I disagree on some details. I'm happy to see you guys involved, though. I'll be keeping an eye on the pages once again. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

recent round of changes

I see that PCPP made another giant set of changes without any consultation. I won't do the same, so here's my lengthy explanation and justification for my changes. If you agree or disagree, please state your opinion either way.

Taking this diff as the go-point, let me write a few things.

Since it's obvious what the changes were, anyone can see, let me just state my disagreements. Each number corresponds to a red change

1. It needs to be stated that the burning doesn't work with Falun Gong teachings--why remove this? CHANGING BACK
2. Fine. LEAVING.
3. Why is information about the survivor's fates--which is completely CCP controlled information, relevant in the lead? Any explanation? Since this has been disputed back and forth already, and no explanation given, I'm removing it again. The point is because it is completely CCP sources and has minor relevance to the controversy in question; it shifts the focus about the dispute over the case to claims about China's rule of law. I know how this is a deliberate strategy, I just don't see how it's relevant. CHANGING BACK.
4. The biggest change: the whole rearrangement of disputation and speculation. PCPP deliberately mixes up categories here. The fact is that the challenge to the official narrative is the most prominent point of dispute. It is not of the same order of dispute as western journalists squabbling over Falun Gong teachings. But PCPP seeks to put them into the same category, so the real disputes and troubles in this story are covered up. But the whole dispute with the CCP narrative is one of the most prominent elements in the whole article, in the reporting on the incident, one of the most fundamental considerations in coming to terms with the event: was it staged or not? It is a different matter to speculate, then, whether for what reasons possible Falun Gong practitioners may have done it, or, if they were practitioners, which scriptures and how would they have set them off (this argument is largely nonsensical anyway, since if that scripture was a call to burnings, why only one? Right?) CHANGING BACK.

• Now if you'll compare this diff you'll see that those are the changes of PCPP's that I thought were worth keeping. all the others, I felt, were simply POV-pushing: pushing down the highly relevant information about the nature of the entire incident, and promoting the CCP narrative about it. It is ultimately a question of discussion and editor consensus about which sorts of information require which sorts of play in the article. But it is a discussion founded on proper sources and good research, and on the concept of impartiality. Now, I do not see either myself or PCPP as entirely impartial on this article. We have opposite perspectives. That is why it is crucial that other editors please state your support or disagreement with our changes. I believe that even with disagreements, as long as people are reasonable, it's possible to work out compromises and speak the same language. However, I am increasingly concerned that this is not true for PCPP, who appears intent on aggressively shoving forward his POV despite being rejected and complained about by numerous editors. This is a shame. --Asdfg12345 19:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I support these changes. The key thing here is the placement of the counter-narrative (or call it what you will). This is a defining element of the page and of the story. Let me explain why I think it should have its own section. This page is called "Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident," not Tiananmen Square self-immolation hoax", or "Tiananmen Square staged self-immolation." That is correct, but at the same time it is the same name that would be used if they were confirmed Falun Gong members. Since the nature of the incident is so crucial to defining the story, and that by default the 'argument' of the piece—that is, the entire way in which the story is known to the world—is through the claim that the individuals were Falun Gong practitioners. There would be no such thing as the ""Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident" if it were not claimed that they were Falun Gong members.
In this situation, making clear that there is a well-founded counter narrative is important. It's not something to stuff away to a side-box or the corner of the article. It should not dominate the page, but it should be as prominent as the other narrative (or more so depending on the evidence and wp:due)—therefore I think placing all of that information in its own section is quite appropriate. The other speculations and disputations about the identity of the people and so forth (the parts that are not strictly evidence-based) are separate to this arc. This is my opinion, I apologise for the laborious way I communicated it. I think it is a joke to dispute Pan's investigation. That's the most solid piece of evidence available in the whole thing. Most of the rest is just image-making, speculation, video cuts, and propaganda and counter-propaganda. —Zujine|talk 23:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

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