Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:46, 25 February 2006

Photo

Could somebody reduce the resolution of the photo and re-upload it? It's a little too much... I'd do it myself, but I don't know how (yet)--141.54.164.174 23:00, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disputed territory?

Very simple to answer the question about "Inner" Mongolia being a "disputed territory": Inner Mongolia or the southern part of Mongolia is currently a colony just same as Tibet (which includes not only TAR but all of so called "zang qv" in Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan and Yunnan). China wasn't China untill 1911, but upon the liberation of themselves from the Manchu foreign rule, the Chinese claimed all the alien territories which for some centuries belonged to the empire of Manchurians but never that of *Chinese*. (And no offence - you guys were treated by the Manchus way much worse than they treated Mongols). There is abosolutely no difference between the case of Mongolia and Germany spllitting into two, Korea getting divided into two, Bengal into two and so on. This argument has much more validity than the Chinese claim over Formosa (Taiwan?).

In what way is Inner Mongolia a disputed territory? Is it claimed by the state of Mongolia? — Instantnood 18:13, Jan 29 2005 (UTC)

There is an independence movement. -- ran (talk) 23:39, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but very few mongolians in Inner Mongolia want to be independent. If there is poll, most of the mongolians (not including the Han Chinese people in that land) will chose to stay in China. In Texas, there is also an independence movement, does that mean Taxas a disputed territory? -- woshiwppaa Feb 24, 2005

Thank you. — Instantnood 08:31, Jan 31 2005 (UTC)

Is this the one you referred to? — Instantnood 20:39, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Yep. And there are others on the net too IIRC -- ran (talk) 15:26, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Mongolian name

Does anybody know what the source of the mongolian name is? I cannot find any encoding on my PC that doesn't show the mongolian characters as question marks. I've installed all possible language packs I could find in Windows XP, SP2. Chinese, Japanse and Tibetan all displays correct. CyeZ 07:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You need a font that displays Mongolian letters... they are in Unicode and should display as long as you have a font that supports them. (Try using Firefox too, since IE has trouble finding the right font.) -- ran (talk) 15:47, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Inner Mongolia as a geographical region

This article talks about Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, but Inner Mongolia as an administrative division did not exist until the late 1940s. Before that, the geographical region of Inner Mongolia spanned across several provinces. The limits of the autonomous region have also been changed over the decades. Is there a convention on the limits of Inner Mongolia as a geographical region? Would it be Mongolia (region) minus Outer Mongolia, Hovd, Oyirad and Buriyad? Is there any remarkable difference between the limits of the autonomous region and the actual extent as a geographical region? — Instantnood 06:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Convention? The leagues of the Qing Dynasty, perhaps. Those would be modern Inner Mongolia minus Hulunbuir (Hailar), Xing'an (Ulaanhot), and Alashan, plus Josutu (Chaoyang, Liaoning). In any case, the borders claimed by the Inner Mongolia People's Party are those of modern Inner Mongolia. -- ran (talk) 07:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

That's a problem when writing about Japanese occupation of eastern part of Inner Mongolia (and Manchuria) before 1937.. It's ambiguous whether "Inner Mongolia" is talking about the pre-communist era geographical region, or the present day autonomous region. — Instantnood 08:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

What's the pre-communist era geographical region? If we take it as having included the Jirim, Juu Uda, and Josutu leagues, then those were parts of Manchukuo as well. -- ran (talk) 08:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

No idea. Just thinking how to take into account the ever changing limits of what the term "Inner Mongolia" referred to. — Instantnood 08:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's safe to refer to modern Inner Mongolia as just "Inner Mongolia". We haven't run into too much trouble yet... -- ran (talk) 08:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC) You know what... I'll look a bit more into this topic. Thanks for bringing it up. -- ran (talk) 09:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I don't know much about that, except that I know from old maps Inner Mongolia did not exist as an administrative division until the late 1940s, and its border has been changed for several times. :-) — Instantnood 09:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I've added some more info. This is all I have at the moment, and to be honest, it is all rather patchy. But I guess it's better than nothing. -- ran (talk) 03:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. It's much better now. :-) — Instantnood 08:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Arranging of names

1. The Cyrillic represents Khalkha Mongolian, which isn't even the language spoken in Inner Mongolia! It's not a "Cyrillization" in the same way as the Romanization -- it doesn't even represent the same "system"! I would prefer for it to be not included at all, but if you have to be included, it should be kept separate from the official script of Inner Mongolia or its Romanization.
2. Traditional Chinese isn't official anywhere in Inner Mongolia. It should not come before Simplified Chinese.
3. As for whichever one goes first, we should follow the order used in official documents:

:

• "各级国家机关、人民团体的公文应当使用 蒙汉两种文字。"
• "自治区行政区域内的社会市面用文应当并用蒙汉两种文字。"
• etc.

Or take a look at this picture of the People's Congress of Inner Mongolia:

-- ran (talk) 00:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your information, Ran. I agree with your point that Traditional Chinese and Cyrillized Mongolian can be actually excluded in this case. So, the only things that have to added are: Simplified Chinese, Pinyin romanization for Chinese, Traditional Mongolian and romanization for Mongolian. The romanizations act as pronunciation guides. But I still think that it is a better idea for Chinese to come before Mongolian, as Chinese is the statewide official language, and "C" comes before "M" in the Latin alphabets. Should we put Mongolian first, just for the sake of the minor fact that the document reads "蒙汉", instead of "汉蒙"? :-)

Disclaimer: I have nothing against minorities and their native languages. -Alanmak 01:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Not just the document; take a look at the picture of the People's Congress of Inner Mongolia: . -- ran (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and there's this: 包头市社会市面蒙汉两种文字并用管理条例

第五条 社会市面并用的蒙汉两种文字，应当使用规范用字，并按下列规定书写、制作、挂放：

(一)横写的，蒙古文在上、汉文在下，或者蒙古文在前、汉文在后；

(二)竖写的，蒙古文在左、汉文在右；

(三)环形写的，从左向右蒙古文在外环、汉文在内环，或者蒙古文在左半环、汉文在右半环；

(四)蒙汉两种文字的字号、规格应当协调，制作的材质必须一致；

(五)蒙汉两种文字分别写在两块牌匾上的，蒙文牌匾挂在左边、汉文牌匾挂在右边，或者蒙文牌匾挂在上边、汉文牌匾挂在下边。

And this one has the same wording: 呼和浩特市社会市面蒙汉两种文字并用管理办法

-- ran (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop warning me and stop carrying out Chinese chauvinistic propaganda here!

What is "vandalism"? Why would you keep deleting the changes I made into the Southern Mongolia article? What happened to the wikipedia principle of everybody can make changes? What is your position or role at wikipedia if there is such a thing? Who you think you are? I'm a native Mongol so I at least know a lot more about my country than you do. Can't I express what I know? Who are you to preventing from doing that? And finally, stop carrying on Chinese government propaganda, biased chauvinistic brainwashing on wikipedia! Tell me if there is someone who sort of looks over you as a supervisor or whatever. I need to talk to them.

(This is not only to Ran, but, including him, those who are doing the things that I'm talking about)

You weren't just making changes, you were also removing content; nor were you editing in accordance with the Neutral Point-of-View (NPOV) policy. We welcome all edits and discussion as long as they work towards an NPOV presentation of topics. Unfortunately, your POV-pushing and removal of content fall far short of the standards that we follow. This is not just me saying so -- several other editors have also been reverting your edits.

Also, everyone is welcome to edit every single article in Misplaced Pages, as long as their edits are NPOV and can be backed up with sources. We do not give priority to anyone's edits simply because of their ethnic or cultural background.

Finally, no one oversees anyone on Misplaced Pages, and everything is decided through community discussion and consensus. If there is a disagreement with me or anyone else, you are welcome to ask other editors or on other talk pages for third opinions and mediation. -- ran (talk) 00:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Is following Chinese propaganda a "neutral point of view"? stop joking! several other? who? you guys brainwashed Chinese, and nothign else!

test.... 03:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I would strongly suggest that you review Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy, and look at how editors deal with other contentious articles like Taiwan and Tibet before continuing to make edits. Note that POV pushing is not a constructive way of editing Misplaced Pages.

One more thing: each of us has reverted 2 times in the last 72 hours. Misplaced Pages's "three-revert rule" states that any editor who reverts more than 3 times in 24 hours can be blocked temporarily from editing. So I would strongly suggest discussing the article and reaching a consensus rather than continuing the revert war. -- ran (talk) 05:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Wikidugaren,

Let me give you an example: calling it "Southern Mongolia" is POV because you make it sound like it's a region that should become part of Mongolia. This is similar to the name "South Azerbaijan", the name that Azeri nationalists use because they want to see a Greater Azerbaijan. Our only choice is to use the neutral term, with the name the reflects the country that it lies in, Iranian Azerbaijan. So, saying Inner Mongolia is neutral because it is more of a geographical term, not a political one. --Khoikhoi 05:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

And most importantly, since the ancient times the region of present-day Inner Mongolia has became multi-racial. Sovereignties of Chinese Warring states had reached the region long before Genghis_Khan found the first Mongol state in 1206. In short, historically it has never been a pure-Mongol country.--219.79.28.40 11:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, multi-racial but never you Chinese. Don't keep repeating your government-backed textbook views here. I had enough of it when I had to have it to insult my brain.

128.138.41.190 14:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I strongly advice you guys to look at the NPOV policies and examine your biases. Calling the region "Inner" Mongolia is not only VOP but is a perfect example to show the Chiense arrogance toward others in terms of big mouthing about others' issues while knowing nothing about their language and culture. "Southern" is the correctly meaning of the Mongol word "Öbör" (some may spell it "Übür" or "Övör" or "Üvür". When we argue about whether it should be "Inner" or "Southern" or 内 or 南, this is all about how it should be in others' languages but not about the only one word of Mongolian language, always the same, ""Öbör". It just means south. As for your claim of calling it "Southern" would imply it is part of "Mongolia" or political, is because it would be so only to those who are poinsoned by the Chinese government chauvinist propaganda and becuase you 心里有鬼。 Sorry, forgot to sign again: dugar 14:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Official is offical. You can't argue with that. --Khoikhoi 19:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I know what "official" means but the question is that if "official" the truth? And, you know, you sound like not intending to hide the fact that you're simply copying the government propaganda and are defending it here. Aren't you? Answer me this: Why can't "official" be challenged, especially when it comes to such oppressive, dishonest and impreliast government of your country - "China"?

dugar 19:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Chinese. Why does it matter if the offical name isn't true? Inner Mongolia is in China, and outer Mongolia is Mongolia. Just because the government uses the term doesn't mean it's propaganda. --Khoikhoi 20:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure it is propaganda. Big states have bigger opportunities to imprint their POV into heads of public. Even you, Khoikhoi, being not Chinese, are perfectly brainwashed. Calmouk 04:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah sure. That's why almost every English source in the United States of America says "Inner Mongolia". I've seen it on my National Geographic atlas since I was 3 years old. --Khoikhoi 04:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If your atlas was printed in ROC (Taiwan) you have a chance not to find Mongolia at all :) Calmouk 04:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Why would it not have Mongolia? It was a National Geographic atlas. --Khoikhoi 04:57, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Because Taiwan does not recognize independancy of Mongolia and shows modern Mongolia as Chinese territory on its maps. Calmouk 05:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm glad that I have an accurate atlas that let's me know if certain countries don't recognize other countries. --Khoikhoi 05:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Huh? "multi-racial but never Chinese"?? You can express your disagreement, but please also read carefully what other people replied/said. As common knowledge, the Warring States which I mentioned were of course established by the Chinese.--219.79.26.14 06:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Inner Mongolia → Southern Mongolia – "Southern" is the correctly meaning of the Mongol word "Öbör" (some may spell it "Übür" or "Övör" or "Üvür". When we argue about whether it should be "Inner" or "Southern" or 内 or 南, this is all about how it should be in others' languages but not about the only one word of Mongolian language, always the same, ""Öbör". It just means south. "Southern" is just Geographical POV.

Voting

• Support Calmouk 04:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Mongolian POV name. Khoikhoi 04:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, Inner means INSIDE China. If it is not Chinese POV then what is that? Where is your ability to think logically? Calmouk 04:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Lol, so it's not in China? Where is it then? Mexico? --Khoikhoi 04:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

You should learn World history better. For example, do you know that Inner and Outher Mandchuria used to exist also? And why they are not in your atlas now? Calmouk 05:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It says Manchuria in my atlas. Inner Manchuria's in China, Outer Manchuria's in Russia. So the do still exist as regions. And I know my world history just fine. --Khoikhoi 05:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

LOL But what is interesting Russians never call their Far East as Outer Manchuria :) Is name "Far East" just Russian POV?

From one POV it is "Far East", from another it is "Outer Manchuria". Which one is NPOV? Calmouk 05:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

IMHO NPOV would be to call those two parts "Northern Manchuria" and "Southern Manchuria". Bu why the same logic cannot be applied to Mongolia? Calmouk 05:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

FYI, Outer Manchuria occupies only a small portion (south of Stanovoi Range) of the Russian Far East. Therefore both geographic terms are different concepts thus it is not appropriate in doing equal-footing POV comparison. Needless to further say "logic of Northern(?) and Southern(?) Manchuria" while no one, at least formally, uses these terms at all.--219.79.26.14 16:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Calmouk's statement that "Inner means INSIDE China" is wrong. When both "Inner Mongolia" and "Outer Mongolia" were inside the Chinese Empire, these names were already in use. But if "Inner means INSIDE China", how can "Outer Mongolia" be called thus when it was still inside China? Also, Inner Mongolia is the official name in English, just as Neimenggu is official in Chinese, and Öbür Monggol official in Mongolian. What are we going to do next, rename Cisalpine Gaul and Transalpine Gaul into "Southern Gaul" and "Northern Gaul" because they reflect a Roman-centric view of the world? Rename Transylvania into "North-sylvania", because the name is also Roman-centric? What about "Near East", "Middle East" and "Far East" -- Eurocentric? They should be renamed too, I suppose? -- ran (talk) 05:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

At least the Mongols would not accept Calmouk's logic/statement:

"ARTICLE II - Outer Mongolia recognises China's suzerainty, China and Russia recognise the autonomy of Outer Mongolia forming part of Chinese territory."--219.79.26.14 16:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support The premise that "Inner Mongolia" is somehow more neutral and geographic is laughable at best. "Southern", last I heard, is very specifically a geographic, neutral term. Perhaps we should change the names of the American states to Inner and Outer Dakota. And West Virginia, that's right out. Are we planning to reunite North and South Carolina at some point?

Southern Mongolia is south the rest of Mongolia. Perhaps, since so many Southerners want to leave the US, we should stop referring to their region as The South. We could call it Lower America.

Southern Mongolia is a more neutral, accurate term. Our job is not to support either side, but to state the facts, and that includes even when some "official" authority, like a ruling empire, is on one side. We're not here to advocate China's occupation of Mongolia any more than we are to advocate its reunification with the rest of Mongolia. It's to the south, and that's a pretty neutral and widely accepted way of describing it, so let's go with that. --Kaz 21:13, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No, we have "North Dakota" and "South Dakota" because those are the official names of those states. Similarly, we have New Zealand (instead of Aotearoa) and South Africa (instead of Azania) to refer to those countries because those are the official names of those countries. If "North Dakota" and "South Dakota" decided to rename themselves "Outer Dakota" and "Inner Dakota" tomorrow I have no doubt that Misplaced Pages will follow suite immediately. -- ran (talk) 21:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

hahahhahahaah. Sorry. I liked how you called something "laughable at best" and then provide such weak arguments that were easily shot down.

• Oppose Use the official name. Instead, add "footnote" on alternative names. --Vsion (talk) 21:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. This continual push from vocal Misplaced Pages minorities to reinvent long-held English language usages is getting very old. Not only are neologisms (which this is) not allowed on Misplaced Pages, but the job of this encylopedia is to be informative, not to be a pressure group for pedantry. I don't give a merry hell what the literal translation of the name is in one language or another, but in our language, the name of the region is invariably "Inner Mongolia." If such pressure groups can come up with independent, verifiable usages for alternate wordings, then they're worth footnotes, but lacking those not even then. RGTraynor 21:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's more normal to refer to it as Southern Mongolia than "Inner Mongolia", if you're just a regular person, not a member of the State deparment maintaining the policy of actively taking the Chinese side in questions of their empire's dominion. The idea that it's "invariably Inner Mongolia" is utterly ridiculous. --Kaz 22:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"More normal?" In what universe? "Southern Mongolia" has 122,000 hits on Google. "Inner Mongolia" has nearly three million hits. Hell, I'd never heard of the term "Southern Mongolia" before today. RGTraynor 03:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I see. So that's why this separatist group calls itself the "Inner Mongolia People's Party" (IMPP)?

According to their constitution:

II. The Guiding Principles of the IMPP

The IMPP uphold the principles of democracy and peace in fighting to end the Chinese Communist Party's colonial rule in Inner Mongolia.

The ultimate goal of the IMPP: Achieving the independence of Inner Mongolia.

The intermediary goal of the IMPP: Establishing a confederated union with China in the course of the future social development in China.

-- ran (talk) 22:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. 'Inner' is the usual English term. Mark 22:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. As long as the autonomous region is under PRC's jurisdiction, use the official English translation "Inner Mongolia". By the way, isn't Southern Mongolia the southern part of the sovereign state Mongolia? (analogous to Southern California) Google test: Inner 2,160,000 vs. Southern 101,000. -- Felix Wan 23:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
• oppose use common names--Jiang 00:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
• oppose I have never heard of "southern Mongolia" before either --1698 04:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Southern Mongolian Issue

There should not be any dispute over Southern Mongolian issues. Southern Mongolia has never been part of China until the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) invasion into the region in 1947. As a result of CCP's near century massive propaganda and intensive brainwashing, many Chinese especially those who educated in the People's Republic of China (PRC) have always believed in the CCP version of Mongolian history that are delibrately re-written and distorted for the purpose of legitimizing and maintaining the CCP's colonial regime in Southern Mongolia. The name "Nei Meng Gu" ("Inner Mongolia" is direct English translation of "Nei Meng Gu") is a strong evidence of CCP's propaganda and misinformation that convey a wrong message to the people around the world, claiming that "Southern Mongolia is not the Southern part of Mongolia, but the inner (or inside) part of China". The original Mongolian word of "Uvur" which has ONLY refered to "South" has NO meaning of "Nei" (or "Inner") at all! It has nothing to do with the Manchu words "dorgi/tulergi" etc. "Uvur Mongol" is "Uvur Mongol" or "Southern Mongolia" in English, and it has never been derived from any languages but Mongolian. Similarily, "Ar Mongol" has NO meaning of "Wai Meng Gu" or "Outer Mongolia". It has ONLY meaning of "Northern Mongolia". During the CCP's 58 years colonial regime and assimilation policy in Southern Mongolia, Chinese people not only altered what the Mongols had but also created what Dr. Uradyn E. Bulag called "hybridities". For example, the term "Nei Mongol" which has recently appeared as the English translation of "Nei Meng Gu" on the Chinese passports issued to the Southern Mongols; the city names appeared on Misplaced Pages are good examples of this type of mistranslation and misleading as well:

Baotou --- very awkward Chinese transliteration of the Mongolian word "Bogt" meaning "Deer Land"; Wuhai --- nonsense Chinese transliteration of two Mongolian words "Udan-tohai" meaning "Willow Meadow" and "Haidaviin-tal" meaning "Land of Haidav, a legendary Mongolian hunter"; Chifeng --- a direct Chinese translation of "Ulaanhad" meaning "Red Rock"; ......

It is a very simple logic. You can call Americans "Mei Guo Ren" and call English people "Ying Guo Ren" in Chinese, but you should not force the people around the world to call Americans as "Mei Guo Ren" and English people as "Ying Guo Ren" in English.

In terms of the sovereignty of Southern Mongolia, it is totally illogic for Chinese people to claim that Mongolia including Southern and Northern has always been part of China until 1911. Very common justifications by the Chinese are: 1), Chinggis Khan is a Chinese hero and Mongol Yuan is a Chinese dynasty; 2), Manchu Qing was also a Chinese dynasty that ruled Mongolia at least partially. How come Chinggis Khan who was born Mongolian, fought Mongolian, lived Mongolian and died Mongolian became a Chinese hero? It is true that Chinggis Khan and his grandson Hubilai Khan ruled China and categorized the northern Chinese people( called "Khitad") as the second lowest level and the Southern Chinese people (called "Man-ji") as the lowest level of human beings across the world. In other words, Chinese people at that time were slaves of the Mongols. It is totally illogical for a people or a nation to use its credential of being slaved to claim the ownership over other poeple or nation who used to slave them. In terms of the national hero, Chinese prominent writer Lu Xun once said that "if a nation can shamelessly use its credential of slavery to claim its ruler as thier hero, then the Russians have more credential to say 'our hero Chinggis Khan' because the Russians were ruled by the Mongols longer than we were." The same is true for the Manchu Qing rule. During Manchu's 300 year rule in China, the Mongols were de facto co-ruler, but the Chinese were real rulees. Even if the Mongols, together with the Chinese, were ruled by the Manchus, it is still illogical for a slave (the Chinese) to claim ownership over another slave (the Mongols) after the death of their ruler (Manchu). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enkhbatt (talk • contribs)

Frankly, all the rationalization and argument is beside the point. What it comes down to -- and should come down to -- is no more than this: by what name is the region commonly called in the English language? The answer is "Inner Mongolia." RGTraynor 14:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

You have identified yourself as an American. If that is true, then I really need to give you a simple quiz before you talk about Mongolia: 1), How much is 2+3 ? If you can't get the result in 10 minutes, you are allowed to use your calculator; 2), Where is Mongolia? Is it in Africa? in Europe? in American Continient? or in Asia? If you don't know the answer, please locate it in the world map in no more than 30 minutes;

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Enkhbatt (talk • contribs)

Enkhbatt's statement above is obviously inaccurate, long before the founding of PRC the Chinese Republic/ROC had established three provinces (see this 1928 Japanese map) in present-day Inner Mongolia. And the names Inner Mongolia and Nai Mo Ko(Japanese), had respectively existed on foreign maps published in 1908, 1923, 1933, 1935 and 1942. Can people say these are all propaganda under 'CCP occupation'?

Generally, PRC claims over Inner Mongolia are in comformity with the internationally-admitted principle of Succession of states. Note that the Manchu-Mongol co-regime of Qing referred itself to as "China" in the 1728 Kiachta treaty delimiting their Mongolian-Siberian boundary with Russia.--219.79.26.14 15:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

If you think the maps drawn by the Imperialist Japan can become an evidence for what you are trying to prove, you should stick to the maps. Study the same maps you mentioned carefully, they consistantly refered China to as "Shina" ("Zhi Na" in Chinese) or "Shina Honbu" ("Zhi Na Ben Bu" in Chinese or "Shina Proper" in English) which have long been considered by both PRC and Chinese common public as a discremitory name made up by the Imperialist Japan during the Second World War. Japanese Right Wing paramount leader Tokyo City current mayor Mr. Yishihara Shintarou is still publicly calling China as "Shina" ("Zhi Na" in Chinese) and Chinese people as "Shina jin" ("Zhi Na Ren" in Chinese). Almost all the Chinese both within and without the borders of PRC strongly resisted the use of this term. If you think the Japanese term "Nai Mou Ko" ("Nei Meng Gu" in Chinese) and "Gai Mou Ko" ("Wai Meng Gu" in Chinese) is accurate and acceptable, you must accept the term "Shina" or "Shina Honbu" appeared in the same maps as the reasonable names of China. In fact, the Japanese terms "Nai Mou Ko" and "Gai Mou Ko" used by the Imperialist Japan were directly derived from the Chinese word "Nei Meng Gu" and "Wai Meng Gu". Note that now more and more Japanese started using "Minami Mongoru" ("Southern Mongolia" or "Nan Meng Gu") instead of "Uchi Mongoru" ("Inner Mongolia" or "Nei Meng Gu"). See this: Also note that European Union's Transnational Radical Party started using "Southern Mongolia":

In terms of the three provinces set up in Southern Mongolia during the ROC period, indeed there were such three so-called "provinces" in Southern Mongolia, namely Chahar, Rehe, and Sui-yuan. It was nothing more than an unsuccessful atempt of ROC's military occupation over Southern Mongolia. Remember that when the Chinese set up these three small "provinces", the vast majority of the Southern Mongols and the large portion of Southern Mongolian territory were still under the Southern Mongolian self-governance, namely the "Mongol Frontier Government" ("Meng Jiang Zheng Fu" in Chinese) in the west and "Eastern Mongolian Autonomous Government" ("Dong Meng Zi Zhi Zheng Fu" in Chinese) in the east until 1947 when the CCP invaded Southern Mongolia. These two governments had thier own military, own foreign affairs, own monetary and postal systems.

You have mentioned the age-old theory of "Succession of State" which was drafted in 1978 as an unpopular international treaty to which China has not even ratified. Even if you think this theory is absolutely correct, it cannot be applied to the case of ROC which was a regime established under its founding father Sun Yat-sen's famous slogan of "驱逐鞑虏，恢复中华" meaning "to drive out the barbarians (referred to the Manchus and Mongols) and restore the Chinese". The ROC has neither recognized and declared itself as the successor of Manchu Qing nor fulfilled the obligation of the de facto successor. On the other hand, while you tried all possible means to defend the PRC's colonial regime in the so-called "minority regions" including Southern Mongolia, Tibet, and East Turkistan, you have totally ignored the internationally accepted United Nation Human Rights Bills -- International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights, and International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights -- to which China has already ratified. The first article of these two bills clearly states：All people have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine thier political status and freely pursue thier economic, social and cultural development. Why don't you uphold this principle if you really have a "neutrual" opinion?

Another justification you used to legitimize the China's occupation of Southern Mongolia is that Qing once called itself China in a treaty with Russia. If how to call itself in a treaty can determine a people's political status, it is very good news for the Mongols because during Hyagt Treaty (or "Three Countries Treaty") in 1915, the Mongolian Government and the Mongolian Khan Bogd Zevzendamba consistantly refered Southern Mongolia to as "49 Banners of our southern part of Mongolia". The treaty you mentioned has also reminded me of so many other treaties and declarations made then broken by China in Southern Mongolia. Believe me, Southern Mongolia is the land of broken promises! In 1935, Mao Ze-dong and Zhu De sent a telegraph to Southern Mongolia to recognize the Southern Mongolians' right to self-determination ("zi jue quan" in Chinese) and even the right to independence. This is the so-called "3-5 Declaration". Unfortunately, this promise eventually turned out to be a lie when the Southern Mongols worked to materialize it. In 1947, another round of promise took place in Southern Mongolia. The CCP promised to grant "Nationality Autonomy" to the Southern Mongols. This promise has not only been broken by the CCP but also ended up with a series of massacres, ethnic cleansing, and cultural assimilation.

To RGTraynor:

If you simplify the things so easily, I can also simply say a Mongolian word to you: Bugseen Havch! Hope you will try to understand the meaning of the word by taking the Mongolian 101 and remind yourself with the word every time when you talk about Mongolia without knowing the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enkhbatt (talk • contribs)

And you think that responding to those who disagree with you with obscenities (as it happens, I know very well what the phrase means) is an appropriate way to win converts to your crusade? Hm. Good luck there, sport. RGTraynor 20:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice to hear that you REALLY understood the meaning of the word. Hope what you said is not the type of answers such as "yeah, yeah, I know, Mongolia is in Africa, right?" or "Yeah yeah, I know that Korean War is happened in Vietnam." that you always hear from our fellow Americans who never say "I don't know" when you ask something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enkhbatt (talk • contribs)

Hey RGT: you're not just simply disagreeing. You're bigmouthing about issues that you have no knowledge of whatsoever and you're not listening to others explanations amd reasoning because you believe you ought to know it. You have to know that you're at least arrogant. And I'm pretty sure that you didn't really read enkhbatt's writing before you criticised him.

dugar 21:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

some initial thoughts

1. This article and several other related topics such as the one called "Mongolia (region)" are, in a short, are full of Sinocentric POVs. For one thing, the names are problematic. For instance, there is a place name in Southern Mongolia, called "Bortohoi" in Mongolian. "bor" is the color brown (may not exactly match), and tohoi is river bend. The river refered to is the Yellow River or in Mongolian "Hatun Gol". The common Chinese translation of "Bortohoi" is "hetao" or 河套 and this is actually only the translation of second part, river bend, and not the color part. But, anyway, here in this article, there is a term "Hetao Mongols", meaning "river bend Mongols". This doesn't make sense. There is no such concept in Mongol history, nor in Mongolian habits of calling each other. It may be a Chinese way to name different parts of Mongolia but it's not at all common. If you look deep enough, you'll definitely find the term as "Bortoi" or "Bortohai" or something like that but not some wierd "hetao Mongols". So just like this, because of a lot of authors here are PRC-"educated" native Chinese, they just push the Chinese names without bothering to check or impossible for them to check and find out the Mongol terms.

2. Take the article "Tibet", which is pretty good, as example. Unbiased articles on "Mongolia", "Southern Mongolia", "Mongol History" should be something like some of the articles on Tibet. List all different view points, concepts, conflicts, criticisms, understandings, potential implications. For instance, when mentioning "Mongolia", give the wide meaning as well as the narrow meaning. So in case of "Mongolia", the wide meaning is that: Mongolia, A COUNTRY, but not just a "region", being established in 1206, had in recent history been splitting into pieces, due to outside forces such as Manchuria, China and Russia. This can be shown as at least "one type of understanding" (Of course, very unfortunately for those chauvinist brainwashed Chinese, this is the understanding of all Mongols about their own country). The narrower meaning would be that in today's common terminology, "Mongolia" increasingly stands for only the independent part of MONGOLIA.

We can of course also list the view of imperialist Chinese government and their offsprings' understanding of Mongolia being "always a part of "China" too, as "another type of understanding". And there can be others too.

I have a lot more ideas and suggestions to contribute in reviewed, unbiased, un-propagandistic articles on these topics. I'd be happy to discussed with those who with good faith. I'm dissapointed that people like Ran ignored my invitation for discussion and instead having been removing whatever changes I make to "Inner" Mongolia article. Well it is OK but are not gonna solve any problem and certainly worn't give up. And again, this place certainly should not be hijacked and being used by chauvinist propagandists any longer.

dugar 21:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

End the debate

I honestly cannot believe this debate can drag on this long. If the point you're trying to make is against Chinese propoganda and control, you've failed. Changing a name doesn't mean anything. Think about it, what does it do, prove the notion of sinocentrism incorrect? If you want to prove the CPC wrong, you should start looking at the PRC and CPC Constitutions, you'd probably make better arguments then. Please don't start this debate again. Colipon+(T) 07:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

== Shame on you! You have stated that you are a sociology professor and the author of several books. It is unbelievable that as a sociologist you say that "changing a name doesn't mean anything" and "prove the notion of sinocentrism incorrect?" etc. I agree that the root-cause of this kind of Chinese chauvinism is not only the CCP brain-wash but also the deep-seated highly-biased Chinese ideology of sinocentrism that you as a fairly well-educated zhi na ren (since name doesn't matter, allow me to call you zhi na ren) can't even overcome. You have also asked me "don't start this debate again". Stop thinking that this is your zhi na guo where freedom of speech and expression can be arbitrarily deprived of.

==