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Revision as of 18:59, 12 April 2011 editIgnocrates (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,170 edits →Ebionite Jewish Community: discussion on neo-Ebionites since the last AfD resulted in a consensus to merge← Previous edit Revision as of 19:00, 12 April 2011 edit undoDennis Brown (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions69,230 edits →Ebionite Jewish Community: cNext edit →
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*'''Comment''' The oxymoronic POVFORK (material that is POV is not a fork, unless the original was POV) shows one side of a dispute, but not the other; commonly, material is railroaded out of an article with deletors saying, this belongs in the X article (often despite the fact that X article does not exist) When the article is created, deletors use POVFORK to delete it. That is not exactly what has happened here, but there is evidence of a lot of back-and-forth, even editors changing their minds about it. The article was created in 2006. The nomination to delete in 2006 says, "After an extensive discussion, the content was removed from the "Ebionite" article for lack of notability, and was transferred to its own page, with the understanding that after a period of time, an AFD nomination would be made to see if the content merits inclusion in the encyclopedia. After about a month, I still tend to think it lacks sufficiently notable" The current nominator, who voted merge/keep at the 2009 AFD, subsequently re-added material to ], and then decided it should only be a redirect to ] (nothwithstanding the fact that the Sacred Name Movement is a Christian movement with Jewish beliefs), as can be seen in talk Archive 10: section Neo-Ebionites ...Actually, as the person who first added this material..." Nominator has not written a single word at the talk page of ] since 20 Oct 2010, but is next to unstoppable today. *'''Comment''' The oxymoronic POVFORK (material that is POV is not a fork, unless the original was POV) shows one side of a dispute, but not the other; commonly, material is railroaded out of an article with deletors saying, this belongs in the X article (often despite the fact that X article does not exist) When the article is created, deletors use POVFORK to delete it. That is not exactly what has happened here, but there is evidence of a lot of back-and-forth, even editors changing their minds about it. The article was created in 2006. The nomination to delete in 2006 says, "After an extensive discussion, the content was removed from the "Ebionite" article for lack of notability, and was transferred to its own page, with the understanding that after a period of time, an AFD nomination would be made to see if the content merits inclusion in the encyclopedia. After about a month, I still tend to think it lacks sufficiently notable" The current nominator, who voted merge/keep at the 2009 AFD, subsequently re-added material to ], and then decided it should only be a redirect to ] (nothwithstanding the fact that the Sacred Name Movement is a Christian movement with Jewish beliefs), as can be seen in talk Archive 10: section Neo-Ebionites ...Actually, as the person who first added this material..." Nominator has not written a single word at the talk page of ] since 20 Oct 2010, but is next to unstoppable today.
:I think it is arguable that there is a consensus to keep this material somewhere. I think that my example, and the history of this article and countless other articles and AFDs, show that the responsible thing is for a definite conclusion about the fate of material to be reached whenever there is a chance to do so; assuming that someone else is going to do it later is passing the buck. It's all very well to be clever and assert that it does not belong here and does not belong there, but it is not, in the end, helpful when the material obviously belongs somewhere. ] (]) 18:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC) :I think it is arguable that there is a consensus to keep this material somewhere. I think that my example, and the history of this article and countless other articles and AFDs, show that the responsible thing is for a definite conclusion about the fate of material to be reached whenever there is a chance to do so; assuming that someone else is going to do it later is passing the buck. It's all very well to be clever and assert that it does not belong here and does not belong there, but it is not, in the end, helpful when the material obviously belongs somewhere. ] (]) 18:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
::Hence my recommendation to ''Merge into Ebionites'' earlier. There are claims that it was demerged, but that isn't a reason to fork the info, that is a reason to enter conflict resolution. ] (]) 19:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

:For anyone willing to do the reading, the entire thread of the discussion, since the last AfD resulted in a consensus to merge, is ], ], ], and ]. ] (]) 18:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC) :For anyone willing to do the reading, the entire thread of the discussion, since the last AfD resulted in a consensus to merge, is ], ], ], and ]. ] (]) 18:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:00, 12 April 2011

Ebionite Jewish Community

AfDs for this article:
Ebionite Jewish Community (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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This article was recently recreated for the third time. There seems to be only one independent reliable source which specifically relates to this topic which would not qualify as a trivial source. On that basis I believe that it qualifies for deletion yet again. John Carter (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. John Carter (talk) 19:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. John Carter (talk) 19:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
  • SPEEDY KEEP The article was NOT recreated; it was demerged, since the merged content was deleted from the Ebionite article, against the merge consensus of the 2nd AfD. Since the content seems unstable within the Ebionite article it was moved out as per the consensus there (no one objected to proposed demerger, including the AfD nominator, who is demonstrating bad faith with the lack of engagement prior to nomination). Since the contents have survived 2 AfDs, and has grown in sourcing since then, this 3rd AfD is doubly ridiculous. -- cheers, Michael C. Price 19:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Also, the intention in demerging is to create a sub-article about modern Ebionites in general - as opposed to the ancient Ebionites - not the EJC in particular. This article is due to be renamed - I was waiting for feedback before renaming when the AfD was raised. The AfD nominator seems not be aware of this, despite the mention on the talk page . -- cheers, Michael C. Price 07:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
      • If the article were to be renamed, then the content, would, presumably, be adjusted as well. In effect, it would be an entirely separate article than this one. Saying that this article has to be kept because it is to be renamed and the subject material adjusted does not strike me as a particularly reasonable argument. FWIW, having reviewed all the relevant material I could find myself, I have no particular reason to believe that an article about all the modern movements which claim to be "Ebionite" would meet notability guidelines either, as I have found no independent reliable sources which specifically mention any others, or discuss modern Ebionites in general in a substantive way. Some may have been created since I last looked, of course, but I hadn't seen sufficient evidence as of a few months ago anyway. And, regarding the allegations raised above, please consider this nomination for deletion, based on the failure of the content to meet notability guidelines, as my response. I had not myself noted the discussion on the article talk page earlier, and, honestly, given that the article is in mediation and awaiting arbitration because of certain editors' apparent violations of WP:IDHT and other policies and guidelines, I'm not sure any comments I may have made would have been given any attention anyway. John Carter (talk) 18:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
  • SPEEDY KEEP The article has at least one source that mentions the group specifically which has an ISBN number. Therefore, the group exists based on WP:V. The issue in the second AfD was if the group is sufficiently notable under WP:N, which is a guideline, to merit its own article. Ovadyah (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment I voted for a Speedy Keep because of the improper way this was done. When we were discussing options on the talk page of the parent article, a vote to delete was not even brought up as an option. If it had been, I doubt that there would have been a consensus decision to de-merge. Ovadyah (talk) 12:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
      • Editors do not need the blessing of others to take actions they believe improve the encyclopedia. Weak or invalid speedy keep arguments are damaging to the credibility of those making them; speedy keep is a documented procedure reliant on particular criteris which weren't met here, and not simply another way of saying "I really want this kept". The nomination was not obviously in bad faith (as the edit summary accompanying this argument implies), which is a serious allegation against editors in good standing. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 16:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I will try to explain this one more time and then I'm moving on. I was previously opposed to a de-merge shown here. John Carter supported a de-merge shown here. While any editor can change their mind, it would have been nice to know that when we were trying to reach a consensus this week shown here. Anyway, what's done is done. Let's reach a consensus and move on. Ovadyah (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
BB is not the slightest excuse to ignore WP:CONSENSUS since it relies entirely on there not being an existing discussion. Moreover, the nom was absent from the discussion, which adds to that negligence; see below.
  • Merge into Ebionites Per the consensus of the last AFD, which the article's creator supported. If someone is deleting merged information, that is an issue for the talk page, not a criteria for a new article. I take Michael C Price 100% at his word, which makes this new article a NPOV fork. Dennis Brown (talk) 20:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
  • DELETE or alternatively MERGE into a small footnote on Assemblies of Yahweh, or find some more appropriate article than Ebionites, or better just delete totally. As far as I can see this isn't a church/group and doesn't "exist" other than as an "online community", which, other than Facebook which is a company, means it doesn't "exist". The one source only says "Ebionite Jewish Community, Shemayah Philips" which is just 1 person, a person who doesn't have a book on Amazon, and isn't mentioned anywhere and isn't notable. There is this source, The Concise Guide to Today's Religions and Spirituality by James K. Walker, but it seems to be a trawl of websites and 1-man religions. Does every individual in this book warrant a Misplaced Pages mention, let alone an article? Nope, imho. (Sorry) In ictu oculi (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC) -- as a second note to that, I just looked again at Assemblies of Yahweh and even though they are only 3000 strong it seems a Related Groups paragraph at the bottom would cover this content and could probably cover 1 or 2 similar subjects/groups.
  • Comment - This comment is made only to say that the Walker source is an outstanding one, but it does seem to meet minimal standards for an RS. It may not be a great one, but it does seem to meet the minimum RS standards. John Carter (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Good then, that point is resolved. John Carter and Ovadyah should probably stop talking to each other here right about now.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Comment I believe the relevant guideline is WP:GNG, which pretty clearly asks for multiple independent reliable sources which mention the subject in some detail. So far as I have seen, there is only one such independent reliable source which discusses the subject in a non-trivial way. Therefore, I believe that it does qualify for deletion as non-notable. I wish that were not the case, and am hoping that the request of some journal to write an article or more to establish notability, which is currently developing at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/2011 meeting, helps to establish the required notability, but, at, present, I cannot see that the subject meets notability requirements. John Carter (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment It is inappropriate for the nominator to leave comments all over the nomination page attempting to steer other editors into taking an action desired by the nominator. If you don't stop doing this, I will take the matter to ANI. Ovadyah (talk) 19:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I believe I was providing clarification of the first point, and responding to the baseless accusations of others. I have no intention of responding further, only noting that the above comment itself is both very judgemental, seems to ignore the relevant points raised, and would possibly be just as much subject to ANI review as my own, more substantial, comments above. John Carter (talk) 19:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment You had an opportunity to make your points in your opening statement. Further "clarifications" should not be necessary. If these "clarifications" continue, I will ask the admins to remove all the comments. Let's have a clean vote. Ovadyah (talk) 19:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
You do know that these are not technically "votes", but rather discussions based on policies and guidelines, right? And, if there are no further attempts at impugning my own motivations, such as both of the comments directly above, there I would have no reason to make further comments. And there is sufficient precedent for an individual to make comments after first proposing, particularly when he, regretfully, did not actually cite the exact policy and guideline involved. However, if the above editor is capable of refraining from demanding others do exactly as he orders, there should be no reason for any further comment from any of us, so long as further attempts to impugn the comments of others on any matter other than the relevant policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 19:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I did think they were "votes", so pardon my ignorance. ANI says you are free to make all the comments you like, and therefore, I will likewise feel free to make all the comments I like in rebuttal. Ovadyah (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Comment I think he is saying that you might be bludgeoning the process. Dennis Brown (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that was the point exactly. Thank you. Ovadyah (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Que?
  • I think a sensible reading of the previous AfD would be that while many editors suggested merging, nobody explained exactly why the material in the article at that time belonged in the parent. What it certainly did suggest was that a "de-merge" (undoing the redirect) was inappropriate as there simply isn't enough reliable independent coverage of the subject of this article to warrant it standing by itself. I agree with John Carter's initial comment above that arguing for a keep because we could theoretically have an article on a subject somewhat similar to this doesn't hold a lot of water. In ictu oculi's proposed alternative redirect target might also be something to consider. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment The oxymoronic POVFORK (material that is POV is not a fork, unless the original was POV) shows one side of a dispute, but not the other; commonly, material is railroaded out of an article with deletors saying, this belongs in the X article (often despite the fact that X article does not exist) When the article is created, deletors use POVFORK to delete it. That is not exactly what has happened here, but there is evidence of a lot of back-and-forth, even editors changing their minds about it. The article was created in 2006. The nomination to delete in 2006 says, "After an extensive discussion, the content was removed from the "Ebionite" article for lack of notability, and was transferred to its own page, with the understanding that after a period of time, an AFD nomination would be made to see if the content merits inclusion in the encyclopedia. After about a month, I still tend to think it lacks sufficiently notable" The current nominator, who voted merge/keep at the 2009 AFD, subsequently re-added material to Ebionites, and then decided it should only be a redirect to Sacred Name Movement (nothwithstanding the fact that the Sacred Name Movement is a Christian movement with Jewish beliefs), as can be seen in talk Archive 10: section Neo-Ebionites ...Actually, as the person who first added this material..." Nominator has not written a single word at the talk page of Ebionites since 20 Oct 2010, but is next to unstoppable today.
I think it is arguable that there is a consensus to keep this material somewhere. I think that my example, and the history of this article and countless other articles and AFDs, show that the responsible thing is for a definite conclusion about the fate of material to be reached whenever there is a chance to do so; assuming that someone else is going to do it later is passing the buck. It's all very well to be clever and assert that it does not belong here and does not belong there, but it is not, in the end, helpful when the material obviously belongs somewhere. Anarchangel (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Hence my recommendation to Merge into Ebionites earlier. There are claims that it was demerged, but that isn't a reason to fork the info, that is a reason to enter conflict resolution. Dennis Brown (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
For anyone willing to do the reading, the entire thread of the discussion, since the last AfD resulted in a consensus to merge, is here, here, here, and here. Ovadyah (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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