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Malleus' oppose (discussion moved from main page)

Moving lengthy indented discussion over Malleus Fatuorum's oppose here from the main RFA. I've left the original !vote and first response from Dylan there (copied here). Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 09:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion starts here

1. Oppose. There are already too many children in positions of authority here. Malleus Fatuorum 01:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   You have every right to oppose, but age ≠ maturity; there are 15-year-olds who are easily more mature than some 50-year-olds. On top of that, I'd appreciate it if you evaluated me based on my contributions, rather than my age. --Dylan620 02:33, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   You're talking biological nonsense. Only on wikipedia would anyone make such a claim. Malleus Fatuorum 02:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Malleus, Dylan has a point. Age doesn't equal maturity and you should evaluate him on his contribs and not his age. Evaluating someone on just their age is not following AGF. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Dylan, please remember to be civil and consider malleus's decision. thanks! Monterey Bay (talk) 02:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   What on Earth has AGF, possibly the most misunderstood policy in the history of misunderstood policies, got to do with anything here Neutralhomer? Malleus Fatuorum 03:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Well, you are not assuming good faith by only evaluating his age and not his contribs. Age has nothing to do with being an admin. There is no age limit to be an editor or admin on Misplaced Pages, so age doesn't matter. If you are going to assume good faith, you should take his contribs and only his contribs into account. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Then let me spell it out for you, as you clearly don't understand AGF. Dylan620's brain is still developing, and by by no stretch of imagination can be considered to be mature. I understand that there's a body of opinion that these facts should be ignored, and that anyone who can fake "maturity" (which is really a synonym for civility in this wikimadness) for long enough is deserving of the legendary mop, but I'm not one of them. There's really nothing else to be said. Malleus Fatuorum 03:22, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   At this point, I am questioning your maturity, but since this isn't about you nor me, I will step aside. I suggest you do the same. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Please try to AGF. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 04:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   And to think 150 years ago they had teenage military officers. :) Swarm 19:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   And they had small children working down the coal mines, performing dangerous jobs in cotton mills, cleaning chimneys ... are you suggesting that these are all good things? Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Er...no. You opined that "only on Misplaced Pages" would anyone claim that age ≠ maturity. I'm merely stating that young people have been trusted with much more serious things IRL. Indeed, people become legal adults and can enter virtually any job when their brain is "still developing". Nothing to do with child labor advocacy. Swarm 20:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Your argument is specious; there is no mention of "maturity" on the application for a driving licence for instance. Would you argue that "mature" 12-year-olds have as much right to drive a car as anyone else? Malleus Fatuorum 20:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   Can you give any example whatsoever that demonstrates this user should not be considered mature? I only ask because you really haven't justified the opinion. Your only justification was that his "brain is still developing," and that seems kind of weak- the brain doesn't stop developing until ~25 years old. "Developing brain" certainly ≠ "immaturity". Of course, if you think everyone under 25 years old can automatically be considered too immature to be an admin, you're free to hold that opinion. Swarm 22:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   What exactly are you hoping to achieve by this discussion? I have stated my opinion and that's that. End of. That you or others may not share it is a matter between you and your consciences. Malleus Fatuorum 22:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

   I also think Malleus Fatuorum is being immature. Physically, some kids are way more mature than others (i.e. Lina Medina). Mentally too, some kids are mature beyond their years (see: List of child prodigies) Pass a Method talk 09:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

   "There are already too many children in positions of authority here." How many is too many? Sp33dyphil 09:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

   Any is too many. Malleus Fatuorum 16:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

   But as a matter of definition the overwhelming majority of kids are not "mature beyond their years", and no evidence has been presented suggesting that this candidate is in any way exceptional. It is not immature to recognise the incontrovertible facts; rather it is those like you who try to deny them who demonstrate immaturity, quite probably because you are a youngster yourself PassaMethod. Malleus Fatuorum 16:26, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

2. This discussion is silly. It is perfectly reasonable to oppose putting children in positions of authority. There will obviously be some children who are mature enough, but the unconditional probabilities are against that and a desire to avoid the base rate fallacy is a sound one. I wouldn't oppose someone because of their age but, of all the reasons I've seen in opposition to this candidate, this is the only one that is well grounded in theory (probability theory in this case). --rgpk (comment) 13:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Dylan620 has 1300+ edits under his name, and seems to do fine. I am 23 years old, but my youger siblings seem more mature than my older siblings. Because of this, i usually don't judge age as a factor when evaluating someones maturity. I think Malleus should show the same consideration. Lina Medina proves humans can be physically mature at 5 years old. This List of child prodigies demonstrates kids can be mentally mature beyond their years too. (i know im repeating myself). I just think western society belittles young people too much. Young people are sometimes priceless when it comes to voicing opinions because youngsters tend to be less judgemental. Pass a Method talk 18:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

You're clearly delusional. Malleus Fatuorum 18:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, Dylan's RfA has 72 supports, so i guess 72 established users are dumb and you're super smart right? Pass a Method talk 19:01, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

That about sums it up nicely. Malleus Fatuorum 19:07, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• User:PassaMethod seems to have started editing last month and has less than 1000 edits. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• And if PassaMethod is really 23 years old then I'm a Chinese whore from Mars. Malleus Fatuorum 20:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• . The defender's argument, if you could call it an argument, is so self defeating that it beggars belief. an/i is bad enough without giving it over to people with this level of logical inability. An openion fails AGF? Group think at its worst, and a absolute failure to follow 5the spirit rather than the letter of the rule. Ceoil 22:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Other stuff

Ceoil, do you have a source for Hitler liking cats? (diff). It has been suggested that Hitler had ailurophobia. Perhaps you are confusing this with cats that look like Hitler. - Pointillist (talk) 10:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Hitler didn't kill every child he encountered.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 12:58, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion regarding Coffee's support

1. Support - To counter Malleus' oppose: We have seen time and again that maturity and age are two separate entities. Take Anonymous Dissident for example... someone who even at a very young age has shown vast maturity in some of the most sticky situations, and is one of the few admins who I personally hold in high regard. The fact that Dylan is younger than most admins, does not mean he isn't mature enough to make tough decisions regarding this project. Therefore, as I do not see any concerns regarding his maturity or otherwise that would lead me to believe that Dylan wouldn't make a fine admin, I support his request. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 07:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   How is this relevant? Anonymous Dissident wrote fine articles on real encylopedia topics before RFA2, while Dylan should be encouraged to write, for his own good. (Why focus on Malleus? Malleus never opposed Anonymous Dissident at RFB. Malleus didn't oppose AD at the successful RFA2, or at RFA1.) Have you noticed that NuclearWarfareWinter has mentored Dylan for years?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 07:50, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Actually, I didn't. I gave him some advice several times, but I would hardly call it mentoring. NW (Talk) 15:44, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   It's perfectly relevant, Malleus opposed due to the candidates age, therefore I countered his argument with an example of someone who was equally young who has showed vast maturity over his time as an admin. I also don't know why you mentioned Nuclear Winter's mentorship, that doesn't seem relevant to my support at all. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 08:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   You stated that you "do not see any concerns regarding his maturity", so I drew your attention to NuclearWinterWarfare's concern (#1 below), which is graciously expressed after years of occasionaly mentoring Dylan and after years of wise service to WP. Are you suggesting that Dylan's maturity is comparable to Anonymous Dissident's, and therefore worthy approval now, or that Malleus would care about AD?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 08:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   First, there is no User:Nuclear Winter. Second, I think it's rather clear what I'm saying: Age is not a relevant judgement for adminship. I'll repeat myself again in simpler terms just for you: 1. Malleus Fatuorum opposed based only on age. 2. Dylan is young... Anonymous Dissident is young. 3. Anonymous Dissident, has showed that his age did not affect his adminship; likewise Dylan shows no concern that his age will affect his adminship. 4. I disagree with Malleus' oppose based on these assertions, therefore I placed the "To counter Malleus' oppose" directly before my statement. Whether Malleus cares or not is not my concern. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 09:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Age is a perfectly good reason for objecting. Anonymous Dissident is other stuff exists. Hitler liked cats, what do you take from that. Ceoil 09:44, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Your statement "1" ignores what Malleus wrote, "no evidence has been presented suggesting that this candidate is in any way exceptional."  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 09:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Was that statement not in direct relation to the candidate's age? I believe it was... in which case my comment stands as is. (Besides, unless Malleus wants Dylan to write a symphony for his enjoyment, there really isn't anyway to judge if someone is "exceptionally" mature, it's merely left to the eye of the beholder. I'd also counter that no editor has to show exceptional maturity, but should rather show adult level maturity.) I don't quite understand why your critiquing my support this much... my views have been clearly stated and they aren't going to change no matter how hard you try to pitifully dissect them. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 10:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   @Ceoil: Nice straw man you just created there. If I recall correctly, I never once said that Malleus couldn't or shouldn't oppose due to age, or that age wasn't a good reason to oppose, instead I said I disagreed with his opinion and wished to counter it with an equally valid opinion (which is that age is not relevant to adminship based on the presented example ). — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 10:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   You should listen to your conscience, which has noticed the contradiction between your number 1 and mine (what Malleus wrote). Your apology will bring partial relief and reduced shame.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 11:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   "Pity" is hardly evoked by your dialectics, which tantalize with the form of discussion. Intellectual life interests me, while "dissecting" your dead fallacies bores me.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 10:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Show me that Malleus took anything other than age into his consideration when making any of his comments relating to the candidate, and I'd be willing to listen. But you can't, because he didn't bring anything into the argument other than Dylan's age to say/prove that Dylan lacked his standard of maturity... and he never even stated that he viewed Dylan as acting immature, instead he made a comment about his body not being fully mature yet. That still means that he only opposed because of Dylan's age, no matter how hard you try to twist it. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 11:28, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   (ec)To describe the shortcomings of a young teenager, unless that teenager is an old soul and brilliant, can only be viciously cruel, as Malleus surely recognized.

   I quoted his earlier statement only to make the rest of you adults and more mature teens aware of your gross irresponsibility. A good young man has had a few problems in the past with obsessive behavior, and you all want to give him a lot of tools, when his writing is what one would expect of a young man. Don't kid yourself that you are helping him or supporting the youth. You are enabling him, and distracting him from serious intellectual development. None of you will help him if he needs to repeat a year of school, will you?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 11:48, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   First, who died and made you a doctor on teenage development. Second, his parents decide how long he gets to stay online, not you. Third and most importantly, just because writing is what you want/expect him to do, it does not mean that anyone else has that same notion. Most kids his age are probably playing video games or are finding worse things to get into, at least he's here on a constantly changing encyclopedia trying to help. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 11:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Come on you two - do you honestly think this continued bickering is a good use of anyone's time? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Not really... it's actually quite annoying. I would think it appropriate to be moved to the discussion page though. (I would but I can't for obvious reasons.) — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 11:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   I agree with Coffee. My entire debate with Malleus centered around age. But i wouldn't take the guy serious though. He even went as far to say "Dylan620's brain is still developing". At least 5 people on this talk page disagree with Malleus but Malleus still thinks he's correct. We should probably have a "minimum age limit for adminship rule", or something like that, so we can avoid this type of bickering. Pass a Method talk 15:53, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   I think we should make every 16-year-old editor an admin, while they still know everything. Or was that "President"? --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   You are aware that his brain is still developing, right? That's not an opinion nor is it offensive. – anna 16:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   But just look at who those five are, and how little they understand. You for instance PassaMethod clearly have not even the slightest grasp of basic neurophysiology, or dishonestly choose to discount the self-evident truth in pursuit of your warped agenda. Malleus Fatuorum 17:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Look if you are so adament that age should be an issue in adminship, then propose a new guideline. I will say however that i would firmly oppose such a guideline. Pass a Method talk 18:13, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

   Any discussion about introducing new guidelines, especially where the sacred cow of RfA is concerned, is tediously unproductive, so I'll pass. Malleus Fatuorum 18:20, 23 April 2011 (UTC)