| Revision as of 16:45, 4 May 2011 editSunray (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers37,109 editsm rm additional heading← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:12, 4 May 2011 edit undoDirector (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers58,714 edits →Moving toward closureNext edit → | ||
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| ==Moving toward closure== | ==Moving toward closure== | ||
| Not everything works as one might wish, but this mediation has actually made a great deal of progress, ''in my opinion''. There is some more work to be done to bring this phase to a close. Following that we will resume work on the article page and discussions on the talk page. I would like to hear from participants who have constructive suggestions about what we need to do to get closure on the mediation talk page. Participants are requested to sign the groundrules, if they haven't already, in order to take part in the further discussions. ] (]) 16:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC) | Not everything works as one might wish, but this mediation has actually made a great deal of progress, ''in my opinion''. There is some more work to be done to bring this phase to a close. Following that we will resume work on the article page and discussions on the talk page. I would like to hear from participants who have constructive suggestions about what we need to do to get closure on the mediation talk page. Participants are requested to sign the groundrules, if they haven't already, in order to take part in the further discussions. ] (]) 16:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC) | ||
| :Would you please restore my post here, Sunray. It is'' not at all acceptable ''that you should remove any negative sentiments one may express regarding this mess. You have lately gone quite a bit overboard with (re)moving posts by other editors. One gets the impression you are censoring what you do not like, such as criticism of the mediation. My recent thread holds a a single post, does not disrupt the mediation, and concerns other users here as well. I insist on it being returned to where I posted it. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">] <sup>(])</sup></font> 17:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:12, 4 May 2011
Subpages
Groundrules
The following groundrules have worked in other mediations to ensure that participants have a basis for collaboration. Note that you do not have to like each other, or even always see things the same way. The basis for the groundrules is respectful listening and problem-solving. We can customize these rules if we need to. But I suggest we try them. Sunray (talk) 21:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Focus on content rather than the contributor. Note: This is to be interpreted literally, as worded.
- Be guided by WP content policies, particularly WP:V and WP:NPOV
- Commit to being as economical as possible in posts to this discussion page.
- Work towards consensus in editorial decisions.
- I agree to follow these groundrules
Participants are requested to sign below with ~~~~
- Agree.--Свифт (talk) 22:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, --Nuujinn (talk) 01:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. BoDu (talk) 17:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, FkpCascais (talk) 01:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Resume collaborative editing
I appreciate the level of discourse in the preceding section. I think that we are ready to resume editing of portions of the article. I've asked Nuujinn to select the next passage for editing. I've done that in recognition of his work thus far and also because, with the changes to the article by Свифт, I am not sure where to go next. If the three editors who have agreed to work on this can agree on a work plan, that would be great. Would you be willing to resume editing here on that basis? Sunray (talk) 19:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- While it seems that we did got to understand that the "Mihailovic, a collaborator" thus "Chetniks, axis force" is wrong, in the meanwhile, other participants (direktor) have been editing all related articles in the most radical way posible completely ignoring what has been donne here. That constitutes a major problem. FkpCascais (talk) 07:18, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- It does seem contrary to the spirit of the mediation. Direktor: Comments? Sunray (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
New Section for Editing: After World War II
Please follow the same procedure as before, pick a color and make changes. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Continued fighting and capture
Mihailović went on travelled north from ??? with a group of several dozen Chetniks. In the village of Bulozi, near Goražde, on the night of 23 May 1945 Drazin's Mihailović's son Vojislav was killed. During the next several days, Mihailović Draža the next days was moving traveled towards the Drina River, with a group of 22 Chetniks, which is divided into several parts units for easy movement. Mihailović then crossesd the river Drina, and some time remainsd in the area vicinity of Krupanj and Bajina Bašta for some time, before returning to but then returned to the environment of Višegrad. In February 1946, Mihailović fell ill of typhus fever. He was captured near Višegrad on 13 March 1946, hiding in a foxhole, after his hiding place was revealed by one of his chief lieutenants, Nikola Kalabić, either accidently or exchange for leniency. Only after 11 days, In his keynote address at the National Assembly, on Interior Minister of the Federal People Republic of Yugoslavia, Aleksandar Ranković, announced on 24 March 1946 that Dragoljub Mihailović had been detained in a communist prison. Previously, Ranković from was Belgrade reported to Josip Broz, who was in Warsaw at the Cominform meeting, Cominform, that Mihailović had been caught. Then, Josip Broz phoned Joseph Stalin to him this reported this important news. The news of the arrest of General Mihailović, moved quickly, but differing interpretations were received, toured the world with lightning speed and different is received. Of ranging from great enthusiasm in the communist East with great enthusiasm, to skepticism and resentment in the democratic republic of the West., with some skepticism and resentment.
The court process
The trial of General Mihailović was held from 10 June to 15 July 1946. With the main-accused Mihailović was tried with a larger group of people others in a group, including: Slobodan Jovanović, Božidar Purić, Stevan Moljević, Mladen Mujović, Živko Topalović, Milan Gavrilović, Momčilo Ninčić, Živan Knezevic, Radoje Knežević, Konstantin Fotić, Đuro Vilović, Radoslav Radić, Slavoljub Vranješević, Milos Glišić, Petar Živković, Dragomir Jovanović, Tanasije Dinić, Velibor Jonić, Đuro Djokić, Kosta Mušicki, Boško Pavlović, Lazar Marković and Kosta Kumanudi.
Mihailović's The judges were Mihailo Đorđević (President of the Military Court), Milija Laković, Mihailo Janković, Nikola Stanković and Radomir Ilić. (judges) and Todor Popadić served as ( Secretary ). The prosecutor was Miloš Minić, who was helped by Miloš Jovanović. All of them were members of the Communist Party and had fought with the partisans guerrillas during the war. The chief judge Mihailo Đorđević and prosecutor Miloš Minić, were members of communist parties and the partisan movement during the war, so that tThe court was not independent and free but having a political bias as in all communist countries.In his closing argument General Mihailović on the end of the trial was presented his closing argument said:
| “ | I found myself in a whirlwind of events and policy ... Yet I stayed only a soldier. I am convinced that I was on the right track and I called all foreign correspondents, and even a mission of the Red Army to come to my Headquarters. Fate was merciless |
” |
The Allied airmen he had rescued in 1944 were not allowed to testify in his favor.
Of the 47 counts charges laid by Miloš Minić which is read the on 10 June 1946 in Belgrade, Mihailović was convicted on eight counts. The first was:
| “ | Is guilty because in that since the beginning of the second half of 1941, and for all time of war and enemy occupation, |
” |
On 15 July 1946, General Mihailović was sentenced to death, permanent loss of political and civil rights and confiscation of all assets. His son and daughter had denounce Mihailović as a traitor and joined the Partisans earlier during the war, and his wife was the only member of his immediate family to visit him during his confinement prior to execuation. Roberts asserts that the trial was "anything but a model of justice" and that "it is clear that Mihailović was not guilty of all, or even many, of the charges brought against him" although he notes that Tito would likely not have had a fair trial had positions been reversed. Mihailović was convicted of high treason and war crimes, and executed of July 17th, 1946 along with nine other officers in Lisičiji Potok, about 200 meters from the former Royal Palace. His body was reportedly covered with lime and the location of his unmarked grave was kept secret.
The
verdict execution was carried out after only two days. Liquidated was on 17 July 1946 at an unknown place. Even now nobody knows where To this date, the location of the grave of General Mihailović is unknown.
References
- Walter R. Roberts, Tito, Mihailović and the Allies 1941-1945, Rutgers University Press, page 307
- Jean-Christophe Buisson, Le Général Mihailovic : héros trahi par les Alliés 1893-1946, Perrin, Paris, 1999, pp 250-251
- Walter R. Roberts, Tito, Mihailović and the Allies 1941-1945, Rutgers University Press, page 307
- ^ Marjanović, Borislav: How is the captured General Draža Mihailović, Beoknjiga, Belgrade, 2006.
- ^ Lalić, Veljko :The irony of the new government, Evening News, feuilleton: Draža in the Legion deserving, 4 April 2005
- One Who Survived, Time, 7 October 1957
- Lalić, Veljko: Exclusive: Draža Mihailović on the terrible court, Press Magazine, 21 June 2009
- Jean-Christophe Buisson, Le Général Mihailovic : héros trahi par les Alliés 1893-1946, Perrin, Paris, 1999, pp 260-262
- Walter R. Roberts, Tito, Mihailović and the Allies 1941-1945, Rutgers University Press, page 307
- Walter R. Roberts, Tito, Mihailović and the Allies 1941-1945, Rutgers University Press, page 307
- Jean-Christophe Buisson, Le Général Mihailovic : héros trahi par les Alliés 1893-1946, Perrin, Paris, 1999, page 272
Comments
Comment on the above go here. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- I can reconstruct his movements in detail, but I think this is enough.--Свифт (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Since English is not my first languege, perhaps someone else could just put the text in a more correct grammar construction first, to have a corrected grammar version, before doing any changes. FkpCascais (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with your proposal--Свифт (talk) 14:25, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
- Since English is not my first languege, perhaps someone else could just put the text in a more correct grammar construction first, to have a corrected grammar version, before doing any changes. FkpCascais (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Mihailović's grave
No one yet knows where Mihailović grave! Therefore was the state commission was established in Serbia a few years ago, to reveal where he killed and buried General Mihailovic. The place where he was buried at the time declared a state secret and the whole work it done of secret police of the OZNA. His children were not voluntarily joined the partisans, but are abused by partisans when the Red Army have arrived in Belgrade in October 1944. They were used for the purpose of propaganda to inflict damage to their father. As I stated earlier, the statement and conclusions of an author are very bad for the article. Therefore, the trial section shall be included only basic information, because the only way we can get a neutral section.--Свифт (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC) Свифт, all I can say is that it is our obligation to follow what reliable sources say. This is a historical subject, and there are a number of very high quality academic articles and book upon which we can rely. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
One Hundred Thousand Dollar Reward
The Central Board of the Serbian National Defense Council of America held its meeting March 21, 2009 in Chicago. A unanimous decision was passed to offer a reward of 100,000 to a person or persons that fi nd the remains of the first guerilla fighter during World War II, General Dragoljub Draza Mihailovic.
The reward will be paid upon the results of DNA testing of registered medical experts.
- Refrence are not a problem for me. In this section can only be basic information. So I can write that the trial was not fair. That General Mihailovic was tortured in prison etc.--Свифт (talk) 00:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- This is a map of the grave and treasures . This is a possible location, but no one yet knows --Свифт (talk) 00:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- None of those three links are reliable sources. Unfair trials are not at all uncommon. For assertions of that or of torture, you'll need to present reliable sources. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- These are not references but I am so drew attention to did not knows for the location of the grave. These books are my references . It is the largest study of General Mihailović.--Свифт (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Renewed work?
I've just archived the bulk of the talk page, pretty much everything was a month or more old, and there's not been much activity recently. I have also made another pass at the section above, adding some material from JJG's draft, and removing some material that seemed excessively non-neutral. I also tried to gently clean up the language of the quotations, but could not indicate the specific changes with font colors since the quote template doesn't like those tags. I am a little uncertain about that last, not having access to the originals, so please check those closely. If there are no additional changes in the above section in the next few days, I'll assume it's good and move it into the completed draft subpage. Anyone care to suggest the next section to work on? --Nuujinn (talk) 21:30, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Some good work has been done in this mediation, but progress is thought by many (myself included) to be too slow. Here's my take on where we are at:
- Participants have attempted to focus on the draft a couple of times but those efforts were not sustained. The draft we have is about half the size of the current article. That may mean we have a ways to go yet. I would like some assurance that participants are able to finish this off.
- There is still a need to solve some of the basic issues at the core of this mediation. There have been some instances of participants not following behavioral policies. My view is that this needs to be addressed. By that, I mean that it is o.k. to disagree on content, but there has to be an atmosphere of civility in order to collaborate. Would some guidelines for interaction be useful?
- Comments? Sunray (talk) 04:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Sunray, I'm still willing to keep working on it. I do think that some guidelines for interaction would be useful. We seem to be having the same kinds of discussions repeatedly, but I'm not sure how we can break out of the cycle. One option I am considering is taking some issues to the RSN and NPOVN boards in order to get some outside assistance on particular issues. Do you think that would be appropriate? --Nuujinn (talk) 6:46 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)
- I would suggest that we go through the rest of JJG's draft with as many participants who wish to work on it. As you are fairly familiar with the text, would you (Nuujinn) be able to identify the sections that still need work? I will also ask some participants to work on some of the other issues, perhaps using the "Legacy" section as an case in point. I've re-posted the Groundrules several particpants agreed to in December. It will be important to follow these in further discussions. Sunray (talk) 21:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- With respect to the RSN and NPOVN noticeboards: This could be helpful. I suggest that you make proposals of issues to get input on here first. Sunray (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Moving toward closure
Not everything works as one might wish, but this mediation has actually made a great deal of progress, in my opinion. There is some more work to be done to bring this phase to a close. Following that we will resume work on the article page and discussions on the talk page. I would like to hear from participants who have constructive suggestions about what we need to do to get closure on the mediation talk page. Participants are requested to sign the groundrules, if they haven't already, in order to take part in the further discussions. Sunray (talk) 16:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Would you please restore my post here, Sunray. It is not at all acceptable that you should remove any negative sentiments one may express regarding this mess. You have lately gone quite a bit overboard with (re)moving posts by other editors. One gets the impression you are censoring what you do not like, such as criticism of the mediation. My recent thread holds a a single post, does not disrupt the mediation, and concerns other users here as well. I insist on it being returned to where I posted it. --DIREKTOR 17:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC)