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SarekOfVulcan 2

Voice your opinion on this candidate (talk page) (81/32/6); Scheduled to end 21:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Nomination

SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs) – In HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs)'s reconfirmation RfA, Tryptofish asked "Why is it that the administrators who should do this never do, and the ones who don't need to, by any stretch of the imagination, do." Given the amount of controversy I've been involved with over the years, I'm clearly one of the ones who should. I don't expect this to go as smoothly as it seems to be going for HJ Mitchell, but I hope to find that the community still trusts my judgement and my ability to learn from my mistakes. My initial RfA can be found at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Misplaced Pages as an administrator. Please answer these questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?

A: In the past, my primary admin activities have included reviewing speedy (and regular) deletion nominations, blocking editors I perceived (occasionally inaccurately) as disruptive, and protecting and unprotecting pages. While I tend to do a little of everything from time to time, I don't see the balance changing much going forward.

2. What are your best contributions to Misplaced Pages, and why?

A: I like finding subjects that aren't covered but should be, and creating well-sourced stubs. Salty Brine and Mameve Medwed are a couple of examples that come to mind off the top of my head -- my userpage has a list of other articles I've created.

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A: I've dealt with it a day at a time, just like everything else in my life. :-)

Additional question from Nyttend

4. Why did you give up adminship voluntarily, or why were you forced to give it up? I don't see the subject being addressed anywhere on this RFA.

A: I gave it up to show that I was serious about this RfA -- if it doesn't pass, I don't have the tools, unlike the admin review I went through in 2009. The trigger for deciding to file for reconfirmation was HJ Mitchell's RfA, as I mentioned above. After the past week or so on AN/I, it seemed like a good idea to get community input on my continuing to be an admin.

Additional question from Monty845

5. Going forward, would you be willing to pledge to follow the best practices outlined at WP:INVOLVED?

A: No, I'm still not willing to pledge that. I will try to hand off questionable blocks to the noticeboards more often, though -- I actually did that earlier today, reversing an edit warring block I had already imposed and requesting that an uninvolved admin at WP:EWN handle it.

Additional question from Doncram

6. You failed to respond to direct questions from me in a couple proceedings that you had started to, namely at "new issue: false proposals" within AN, at current AFD on John W. Ross, and at recently-closed RM for Jonesboro/Jonesborough HD. Why did you not answer these questions, and will you answer them now, or explain why not?

A: Mu.

Additional question from Doncram

7. I have gotten the feeling that you feel you can put out proposals and blocks to see if there is support for them, like "putting it on the stoop and seeing if the cat licks it up". The proceedings at "new issue: false proposals" within AN, at current AFD on John W. Ross, and at recently-closed RM for Jonesboro/Jonesborough HD, involved what could be termed "noncommittal proposals", i.e. situations where there could be an issue that could possibly be resolved by that proposal. But you did not actually assert you had done homework to have an informed opinion as to the facts, as to the timing of a community decision, and you did not yourself necessarily recommend the proposed action. Could you please comment on who is helped and hurt by "non-committed proposals", and whether you have any regrets or not for making them in these listed or other proposals or blocks?

A: See above.

Additional question from Snottywong

8. Do you believe that, in practice, Misplaced Pages is actually not a bureaucracy?

A: For the most part, yes, I still believe that. There are places where the bureaucracy encroaches, though, in the interest of keeping everyone working together as smoothly as possible.

Additional question from Keepscases

9. Who is another admin who you believe should re-run for adminship? Why? Please be specific.

A: I'm not going to analyze this question at length to find the "most deserving", but if you grant that reconfirmations should be non-controversial, the most recent admin who's raised questions in my mind and hasn't yet commented one way or the other here is Masem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). He recently argued on ANI in favor of a 3RR exemption for enforcing "community consensus" on Day of the Moon, where the consensus seems to be to have been formed by him, the 13-times reverting editor, and two others over the course of a single day's discussion. Is this enough to lose his bit over? Not even close. But since you asked about re-running, rather than desysoping, it fits. After all, I don't think I should lose my bit, but I was willing to put the question to the community.

To take the flipside of this question, I don't think Sandstein should run for reconfirmation. He does very good work in controversial areas of the project, but that means he pisses off even more people than I do. If people who have run up against him want to prove he's not worthy of the community's trust, they can do the legwork -- Sandstein doesn't need to make it easy for them.

Additional question from Wehwalt

10. In giving thought to possibly changing my !vote, I became concerned you will see success here as vindication for your position with respect to WP:INVOLVED. Care to comment?

A: Sure. My position with respect to WP:INVOLVED is that it can be misused as a hammer to beat off admins who have a legitimate complaint with your behavior. My position is also that admins should not use tools to "win" content disputes. My position is also that WP:IAR is not just a policy, but one of the 5 pillars upon which the whole encyclopedia is based. Therefore, if a strict reading of WP:INVOLVED prevents me from properly maintaining the encyclopedia, it is proper to set it aside long enough to get the job done. However, even if it's proper, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, and when time allows, I should file at noticeboards in the hopes that not every admin who reads it will consider themselves also too INVOLVED to act. If someone reverts 5 times in an article after I file the report, it's clear that the disruption needs to stop now.

My position is also that this RfA will allow the community to see if my judgement is good enough in general to continue acting as an admin, rather than vindicating any given position of mine -- that's a matter for AN or an RFC.

Obviously, the way I see WP:INVOLVED is a concern for much of the community, and if I am reconfirmed, I will need to act with a lot more care for appearances going forward.

Additional question from FT2

11. It's fair to explain why I am borderline on this and see what your comments are. Your admin work generally seems a high standard and you are clearly committed to improving the project, and do so. On balance the tools are probably a net plus given things you do well, and the good faith, motivation and non-lasting harm when you've acted questionably. However on the other hand as a consensus oriented project, we sometimes have users who use the tools a little too forcefully, due to their belief they are "improving the project" or "IAR is valid".

I am not so much uneasy about IAR or "taking action to improve the project", those are well established principles, but I am somewhat uneasy about the attitude shown towards it. I'm not seeing responses taking account of others' concerns. I don't see "reason" fields or block notices take pains to explain to the blocked user or reviewers why you (as an apparently involved admin) have acted. I don't see links to immediate reporting to a noticeboard (or a note that you consult by other means) saying that you have acted due to perceived risk but the matter needs review/confirmation/undoing now the crisis is over. I don't see you showing awareness of the need to learn from cases when errors arise, or where looking back you could have avoided drama by better consideration of others's views (if you have changed anything as a result to reduce problems then please correct me).

I don't see, in brief, a kind of humility and a wish to take effort specifically to avoid any misconception by the affected user, and that bothers me. I'd expect that if a problem arises, the response isn't phrased to seem "offhand" or appearing on the verge of dismissive (eg see Q5). When a matter is contentious I'd expect you to at least "step into others' shoes" and make abundantly clear that you anticipate and respond to others' legitimate and easily anticipated concerns. There is a dividing line between good judgment in hard cases, and ignoring good practice when it really has a purpose and wouldn't cause harm. If there is evidence that the underlying attitude towards difficult users and perceptions is not like this, please let me know as I may not have seen all the diffs/history involved.

A: Well, I didn't think the underlying attitude was like that, but I don't know if I can prove it -- or even if it's true. I have to sleep on this, I think, and expand on it later.

Additional question from Sven Manguard

12. If just about anyone answered a question on their first RfA "Mu", with a link to a page that translated that response to 'unask the question', their RfA would sink, as people would state that the candidate had a confrontational attitude and was non-communicative when concerns were raised. This does not seem to be happening in this case. Do you believe it to be accurate that you have a confrontational attitude and are non-communicative? If so, why should we make you an admin again? If not, why won't you answer those (above) questions? Sven Manguard Wha? 06:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

A: Generally, I'm not uncommunicative. Terse, yes. Once in flight school, I was even laconic. The reason I've been refusing to answer Doncram's questions is that they proceed from false assumptions. He is accusing me of putting up "false proposals", because I started a move request with a neutrally-worded statement of the issues, and for nominating an architect's article for deletion when there isn't even enough sourcing to tell if it's one man or two, and what their grounds for notability are. He's also been badgering me to explicitly answer whether I put up fake proposals in several different venues, including this one. If you'd like to rephrase Doncram's questions so they're not insulting my integrity, I'd be happy to try to satisfy your concerns.

Additional question from Griswaldo

13. Sarek in your answer to question twelve you say: "Generally, I'm not uncommunicative." If that is the case could you please explain why you did not communicate with me during the the initial phases of the Avanu incident, when I posted on your talkpage? I had no desire to take it to AN/I and WP:ADMINABUSE asks editors to approach the admin first, but as far as I can tell your only response was to Kuru's sarcastic comment and not to my questions or my pleas asking you not to engage with Ananu ones there was a concern about WP:INVOLVED. Can you explain that particular lack of communicativeness?Griswaldo (talk) 12:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

A: Well, as I said in the AN/I discussion, I didn't think I had any arguments that would be strong enough to change your mind. Since Avanu was repeatedly removing a tag meant to bring people to the article to improve it before the end of the AfD, I did not, and still don't really, see that as a case of WP:INVOLVED. It was fairly-time-critical, and needed to be dealt with so that if the article could be fixed in time, it would be. Why I didn't just say that at the time, I have no idea -- it was probably because you were urging me to unblock and let someone else take ownership, and my response to that was that if someone else was going to take ownership, they could unblock and reimpose the block themselves, as I had done previously when someone else's involvement was questioned. Unblocking and _hoping_ that someone else would reblock was not an appropriate action.

General comments

• Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan
• Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan 2
• Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan 3
• Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan 3/Bureaucrat discussion
• Requests for adminship/SarekOfVulcan 4

• Links for SarekOfVulcan: SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs · count · logs · target logs · block log · lu · rfas · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · checkuser · socks · rights · blocks · protects · deletions · moves)
• Edit summary usage for SarekOfVulcan 2 can be found here.
• Note that as HJ Mitchell did, I requested my admin bit be flipped before I started this RfA, so this isn't just reconfirmation -- I'm not currently an admin, and am relying on consensus here to determine if I should be re-sysopped. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review their contributions before commenting.

Discussion

Support

1. Support. What have I wrought? Well, I am supporting you because I think that you deserve commendation for taking this on; indeed any administrator would. But I also want to say, very seriously, that while I repeatedly see you doing very good, very helpful administrative work, I think that you have a tendency to speak in a sort of voice-of-God tone when you state your opinions, and that it would be a good move if you could work on toning that down. I can expand on that in talk if anyone wants me to. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   NO I DON'T. Whoops, no, that's the voice of Death... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Don't like this rubbish, but you need the tools to carry on working in this voluntary effort in areas you're best suited too. Pedro :  Chat  21:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Kudos for seeking reconfirmation. It would be nice if we could get every admin to do this, but here are obvious issues just with the logistics of it. On the whole, I trust your judgement. I think you're a good admin and, at the end of the day, you get shit done, which is the point of having admins. There is, however, the small matter of a recent ANI thread about you. I don't think it's a serious enough issue that you shouldn't regain your bit over that alone. That said, I don't think you full appreciated at ANI that WP:INVOLVED isn't just about impropriety, but the appearance of impropriety. Any admin in their right mind probably would have made that block (I certainly would, and it probably would have been 48, not 24 hours), but the problem is that the editor you blocked is almost certain to think that you blocked them to "win" the dispute, even though that's not the case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   You think every admin should be an attention seeking whore HJ? Or that every admin needs their ego rubbing (as you clearly do) from time to time? Pedro :  Chat  21:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   I think admins serve at the pleasure of the community. It's incredibly difficult to get rid of an admin who is not living up to the community's expectations, but if every admin had to go back to the community, cap in hand, and ask to retain their bit, maybe RfA would calm down, the concerns about "rogue" admins would be reduced and Misplaced Pages would be improved. The worst thing that could come from mandatory admin reconfirmation or a binding recall system is that we waste a bit of time, but no more than is wasted at the endless ANI threads and RfCs about "admin abuse". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   If you honstly think that this will quell shouts of admin abuse you're a fool, and I am validated in opposing your ego smoothing RFA mark 2. Good intentions (....) Pedro :  Chat  21:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   Speaking from five years of experience (we've had one-year terms for adminship on Swedish Misplaced Pages since 2006), I'd say it certainly helps. /Julle (talk) 22:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   Forgive me for pointing out that this is not the Swedish Misplaced Pages. Neither is it America, South Korea, the various disputed Antarctic areas or Mars. Democracy worked well for the ancient Greeks as long as you were high-born and male..... Pedro :  Chat  22:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   HJ Mitchell, I have to disagree about this process helping to keep admins in line with the community's wishes because instead of actually trying to deal with specific issues (e.g. Sarek and WP:UNINVOLVED) it presents the admin's status as black and white. So instead of giving people the opporuntity to say, "OK Sarek here's what you need to improve lets focus on those things," it puts editors in the position of having to say, "all in all I support this guy." Sure there can be a "but" in there, but as long as the admin gets support why would they care about dealing with the possibly problematic behavior. Sarek still, plainly refuses to abide by a specific aspect of the Admin policy, and states so clearly above, yet he'll be reconfirmed as an admin at the same time. What does that say? Nothing good. This is a waste of time. A better review process would not ask for a popularity vote, but for a serious conversation about an admin's weaknesses. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

4. Support A few rough spots seen from time to time, but as Goethe said, "Man errs, so long as he is striving." --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 21:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
5. Support, but with a wish that you would not waste (imo) community time with this in the future. We gave you our support and I don't think we need another RFA unless that trust has been dramatically lost. (Ie by the creation of RFDAs, RFCs, or in-depth negative discussions of many admin actions.)--Gordonrox24 |  21:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
6. Support He genuinely seems to want to be a successful administrator. I support him, so long as he sticks to his promises. Who Am I Why Am I Here? (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
7. Strong Support - Even though I was on the opposite side of controversy some time ago, I have no doubt that Sarek has (1) a strong sense of fairness and fair play, (2) a sound command of policy, and most importantly, (3) a good understanding of when a heavy-handed administrative solution is not necessary. Kudos to you for standing for review and confirmation. You have my unqualified endorsement. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:35, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
8. I took a look at my support from nearly three years ago, and back then I gave SarekOfVulcan good wishes spoken by the real Sarek of Vulcan. To be a bit more serious this time around, SarekOfVulcan has always been a fair and communicative admin to my knowledge, and I have no problems in supporting him again. Acalamari 21:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
9. Support. 28bytes (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   User:TreasuryTag asked me on my talk page if I could provide a rationale for my support here, and I'm happy to do so. I've not had that many interactions with SarekOfVulcan as far as I can recall, but the one that sticks out in my memory was an indef block of a disruptive user whose talk page I'd been watching. The block was partially for sockpuppetry, of which they'd been convincingly, but incorrectly, accused on AN/I. I stopped by SarekOfVulcan's talk page, explained that I thought the length and rationale for the block was not fair given the circumstances. SarekOfVulcan listened to me, considered what I had to say, and modified the block accordingly. In my view, that's exactly the type of reaction an admin should have in such a situation: open-minded consideration of the possibility that an admin action they took could be incorrect. Now: has SarekOfVulcan made errors of judgment in other circumstances? Yes, I believe so. There have been a couple of AfD closures I've considered poor, for example. But overall, I think SarekOfVulcan is a strong asset to the community as an admin, so I'm comfortable supporting continued adminship. 28bytes (talk) 22:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   Looks like that discussion was at User talk:SarekOfVulcan/Archive 30#Someone65 block. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

10. Support Less obvious than the other reconfirmation, so I reviewed the oppose rationale and looked at some contributions; the ongoing dispute between TreasuryTag and the candidate (at FFD, AfD and on SoV's talk) indicates a personal issue rather than widespread displeasure with the way the SoV has been running things. Pending a stronger oppose from uninvolved editors, I support Jebus989 22:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

    Sorry, I really don't want to make a habit of badgering 'support' !voters here, but just for the record, not all of the diffs I provided pertain to me, and while yes, I am mainly opposed to Sarek through personal experience, that's kind of inevitable... ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 22:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

    I agree it's inevitable. I've certainly had conflicts with users I would jump at the chance to oppose at RfA. But unless there's more widespread abrasion I'm inclined to support per NETPOS Jebus989 22:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

11. Support – I think that the pluses outweigh the minuses in this situation. I respect TreasureTag's opinion, but overall admin work allows me to support. —mc10 (t/c) 22:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
12. Support—from what I've seen of Sarek (which is a considerable amount) over the past few years, I think he has the clue to continue wielding the mop competently. It'd be a shame to lose a good admin, and I really don't see why the mop shouldn't be kept. Airplaneman ✈ 22:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
13. Support - I don't always agree with his opinions and actions -- and I don't believe he's an actual Vulcan. But Vulcans wouldn't wade in to try to prevent all-too-human conflicts from boiling over nearly as often as Sarek does. --Orlady (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
14. Support But really don't think this is necessary. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 00:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
15. Support - Sarek is and will continue to be a good admin. --NeilN 00:04, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
16. Support reaffirmation per above. No reason why Sarek shouldn't keep the mop. –BuickCenturyDriver 00:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
17. Support I have agreed with him, disagreed with him, he's blocked me at least once in the past, but I have absolutely no reservations about reconfirming Sarek as an admin. He's done good work, has a conscience, and is an asset to the community. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
18. Support, I really don't see why you needed to give up the tools, so I see no reason to say that you shouldn't get them back. Nyttend (talk) 01:21, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
19. Support I have no issues except for wasting everyone's time. Royalbroil 01:52, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
20. Support Sarek is a good admin and shouldn't be putting himself through this. He get's it right the vast majority of the time. Kenatipo 02:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
21. support a really good admin who has on occasion made some pretty bad calls, especially wrt WP:INVOLVED. I'm hopeful Sarek now understands that being involved isn't something to try to IAR around. If it's so plain that an action needs to be taken, someone else will take it. If it's obscure, you can raise it at ANI... As said above, almost all good work and has a conscience. Hobit (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
22. Support But if you feel a little burned out, a short break from admining is fine too. That said, there are certainly some admins that, if they come here for reconfirmation, are basically guaranteed not to make it. Bravo for putting some accountability back into Misplaced Pages's own College of Cardinals. Ray 02:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
23. Support. My interactions with Sarek in an administrative capacity have been largely positive. I see no reason to take away his sysop bit. — HelloAnnyong 02:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
24. Support Stud. -FASTILY 03:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
25. Support good admin, has common sense, which brings about a better community in the long run.--Milowent • 03:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
26. Support Good admin, with common sense. I trusted this user with the mop before, and hopefully will do so again. Dayewalker (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
27. Support While laudable, I hope all this reaffirmation stuff doesn't become the norm.--Hokeman (talk) 03:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
28. Support His first RfA was brilliantly handled without kow-towing to the corps of questioners and unconvincing opposition, and I see the same bold frankness in some of Sarek's responses here. Some comments of his elsewhere have caused me to raise an eyebrow in the past but nothing, absolutely nothing has made me doubt his suitability as a sysop. Everyone, including admins, can make mistakes and sometimes get drawn into issues they should preferably have stayed clear of, but insisting that sysops be infallible reinforces the idea the adminship is indeed 'a big deal' and a very big one too. It ain't - it's actually a mug's game, but someone has to do it, and Sarek does it rather well. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
29. Support - Doc talk 06:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
30. Support - Misplaced Pages is a unique place. There are few other activities to which one could devote so much time as a volunteer, and receive so little appreciation and so much complaining, grumbling, drama, and endless arguing about anything and everything about which an argument could possibly be had (and then some). Don't let the wiki-idiots shake your self-confidence. —SW—  06:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
31. Support. SarekOfVulcan has dealt with more than his fair share of disruptive users, and I have been consistently impressed with his equanimity in those dealings. A person who can keep a cool head as he does is clearly fit to continue with his adminship position. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:36, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
32. Net positive. Hopefully this sorts out your dirty laundry, so to speak. NativeForeigner /_Contribs 07:06, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
33. Support That TreasuryTag opposes you is enough to convince me that you're a net positive. However even without that, I've seen you around and haven't seen anything glaring. You're not the best admin, but you're not the worst. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
34. Support: I know you've got into more controversial actions than most, and had your fair share of criticism, but I think that comes with not being afraid of difficult and contentious issues - you're not afraid to tackle things that need it (where I certainly would falter - along with many, I think), and if something goes against you, you accept it and move on. Respect for going for reconfirmation too - it's a good chance to listen and reflect, and I hope you're successful with it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
35. Support Jimbo was very much right when he said that RfA is broken. Sarek is a good editor and those who want to oppose him solely because he is "wasting your time" don't, he isn't wasting your time, no one is making you vote at RfA (although it is your duty to do so). He is a good editor and I believe that people shouldn't judge him harshly for going through this again.  Adwiii  Talk  10:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
36. (edit conflict)Support I've seen a lot of the crap SOV has had to deal with and he's dealt with it all superbly. I trust him and do not have a doubt in my mind that he'll continue to do the good work he's done so far. —James • 8:55pm • 10:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
37. Support Never had a problem with SoV myself. Quite sure that he/she will take note of the views of the opposers and apply or ignore them as appropriate. :) Peridon (talk) 11:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
38. Support. This wasn't as obvious to me as HJ's reconfirmation, as Sarek has clearly been involved in a fair amount of drama. Looking through ANI archives, I've found no less than 7 incidents brought up regarding him specifically along with all sorts of accusations all over the place, including demands for de-sysop at places like ARBCOM. However, you haven't been de-sysoped, the ANIs were closed without incident and WP:Requests for comment/SarekOfVulcan is a red link. What's more, the fact that he have put himself up for this, knowing his own history and that "enemies" would come out woodwork, the fact that he pretty much INISISTED on being blocked for a mistake, implies to me that he trying to do the right thing. Sarek, Yes, you're cavalier, yes, you should respect WP:INVOLVED more, but all in all, you're a damn good admin. Worm · (talk) 11:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
39. Support Your answers to the questions have convinced me. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
40. Support I think Sarek is doing a fine job as an admin, and hope that he continues in that role. If you ever decide to run for a crat job, you would have my support there also.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 12:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
41. Support - Misplaced Pages needs all the admins it can get, even more so experienced admins. Unless there is evidence of serious misbehaviour (which there is a process to deal with), then I see no reason why Sarek should not have the tools. Mjroots (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
42. Strong Support Admins who do dick-all are never complained about; admins who are willing to drop the gloves when needed are going to piss a few people off. Yeah, the Vulcan might want to count to 10 once or twice before a comment or a block, but that makes then human, and not a "bad admin". Reconfirmation should be a simple yes on this one. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
43. Support Really appreciate the straight answer to my question. Keepscases (talk) 14:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
44. Support with reasons like Bwilkins (number 42): Good administrator, only minor concerns about occasional harsh words.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
45. Support. I think I'm with Pedro here, but I don't wish to speculate on the precise reasons for this 'RfA'. I think Sarek is a fine administrator who has the courage to make sometimes difficult decisions. Scott Mac's oppose, below, has merit as well, but "If you can't judge for yourself..." is not, in my opinion, the proper assessment: I don't think the issue is that Sarek can't judge for themselves. The whole INVOLVED thing, from what I saw of it (which probably isn't everything, unfortunately), is overblown. And if (per Pedro) Sarek is an attention seeking whore, well, slap them with a perfumed trout. So, support, get back to work, and let there be a timely end to this thing. Drmies (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    It's not that I can't judge for myself, it's that I shouldn't judge for myself. Admins answer to the community in the end, and that's who should be doing the judging. The first time around, I discounted the opposes that questioned my interpretation of WP:CRYSTAL, because I knew that it didn't say what they claimed. I'm not ignoring the WP:INVOLVED opposes this time around, though, because it's a legitimate concern. I feel that I should act one way -- others feel that I've drawn the line too far out. It's up to the community to decide if that, and other issues, are acceptable for an active admin or not. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    Well, that's what I thought, but I didn't want to speculate too much. And like many I feel that you probably should not have done that block, and chances are next time you'll err, if err it is, on the side of caution. All the best, Drmies (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    "didn't want to speculate too much" *sigh* Oh, why not, never stopped anyone else on this site... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

46. Support - SarekOfVulcan has gone up on my estimation of late. I think there are some grounds in some of the things raised by the opposes and that in turn demonstrates the good decision to have a reconfirmation RFA. Potentially such objective criticism may lead to SarekOfVulcan becoming a better sysop, I hope so. Regards, SunCreator 16:26, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
47. Support I've always found Sarek responsible with the tools and he has my support.--CrohnieGal 16:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
48. Although I find this reconfirmation thing wholly unnecessary, but that's just my personal opinion. Pmlineditor (t · c · l) 16:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
49. Support - it's not a big deal after all 'eh, on reconfirmations only arbcom might make me reconsider -- Tawker (talk) 16:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
50. Support Seeking reconfirmation in this way is impressively honourable and the candidate's admin actions seem generally to have been quite sensible. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
51. Support. Ruslik_Zero 18:28, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
52. Support because his username is still awesome. Seriously, his views toward WP:INVOLVED sound reasonable, and a promise and desire to do better are good enough for me. I'm also hoping to counteract some of the "waste of time" opposes. (If you think this reconfirmation is a waste of time, move on. Or at least find a better reason to oppose.) --Fang Aili 19:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
53. Support as strongly as possible. No question whatsoever. PMDrive1061 (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
54. Support also as strongly as possible. SoV has acted in a responsible manner and has been open to criticism. He should continue as an admin. MarnetteD | Talk 20:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
55. I think you're overall an asset to the project as an admin, and I think you should retain the admin bit. That said, you skirt way closer to the border of "involvement" than I would be comfortable with. It's not enough to lead me to oppose your reappointment, but I would seriously urge you to consider that feedback whichever way this RfA goes. If it fails, it will be largely because of the issue of involvement. If this RfA succeeds, it would still be worth considering adjusting your approach, since I think it will get you in trouble sooner or later. (Sorry, this came out sounding sort of lecture-y, which wasn't my intent. Bottom line: I think you're a solid admin, and I hope your reconfirmation not only succeeds but also provides some useful feedback). MastCell  20:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
56. Support - Why not? mauchoeagle _(c) 21:09, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
57. Strong support. DS (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
58. Support - I have seen Sarek make mistakes over the years (see what MastCell and others said above about acting as an admin while "involved") but I've always considered him one of the more reliable admins I've worked with. I think it would be a huge loss for the project if his reconfirmation doesn't succeed. -- Atama頭 22:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
59. Support per Atama just above. --John (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
60. This was a stupid idea. You're competent, despite the massive amounts of drama and WR threads in which you've been involved/discussed. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 00:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
61. Support as a net positive but... Sarek: you deserve many of the whacks you're taking in the oppose section. More importantly you knew (or should have known) that this was coming and you could and should have adjusted your methods accordingly a while ago. Passing this RfA does not mean you can return to business as usual. Whether you feel you're uninvolved is not always important: if you know you'll be perceived as such, take the slow route by asking someone else to review the situation. Pichpich (talk) 02:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
62. Support Sometimes an admin needs to stick their neck out and call someone an idiot. Sure, it leads to ANI, but there are times where it needs to be done. --Terrillja _talk 02:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
63. Support You have not abused the tools so far, and I believe you will do even better in the future. No concerns here. My76Strat (talk) 06:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
64. Support He's been around for a very long time (7 years) and was only blocked as requested for a very short time. I think he still has the patience an administrator should have, and will not retaliate within the next situation where he gets involved. Minima© (talk) 09:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
65. Support - No question. Go on lad!!! Orphan Wiki 10:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
66. Support, guy generally has clue and cojones, is a net asset. See MastCell's comments re concerns, which I think are overhyped in relation to some truly bad admin stuff that goes 'round. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:03, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
67. Support - agree with BWilkins and MastCell. Also because being an admin is not and should not be a 'big deal'. Sysops are not meant to be infallible and if we screw-up every now and then it is easily rectified.
    For these same reasons, I do not think this kind of reconfimration RFA is necessary and I do not encourage it--Cailil
68. Support - there a few valid concerns in the oppose section, however you still have my trust. PhilKnight (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
69. Support and keep up the good work. Many of the people opposing have some sort of ax to grind, I'd disregard that as blowing off steam. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    And as an aside, for those of you just starting off in Japanese, you can write mu as む if you don't feel like going through the hassle of getting the right kanji. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

70. Support - There have been some errors in judgement, but SoV is an admin who is willing to tackle difficult issues, and under the circumstances occasional errors are not unexpected. On the whole, a net positive as an admin. Rlendog (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
71. Support Sure there's been some drama, but that's not unsurprising given Sarek's willingness to address contentious incidents and make tough calls. Overall he is certainly a net positive as an admin, and I don't see anything so egregious in his behaviour that would preclude him from retaining/regaining the mop.--Jezebel'sPonyo 16:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
72. Support As your judgments always looked good the few times Ive run across you. Was considering weak support due to valid concerns in the oppose section, but in general your controversial actions seem to be against pushy (if very likeable) editors. Its invaluable for non confrontational types to have bold admins out there making tough calls. On the other hand perhaps sometimes it would be more collegial to do nothing in response to minor misdemeanours you encounter. FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
73. Support Because you are, and have been a good admin, and in my view any minor imperfections do not impar your overall benefit to the project. I will confess to feeling some irritation at finding this RfA; I see no reason for it to be here. I have read your inroductory explanation, and my comment remains. --Anthony Bradbury 18:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
74. Similar feelings to MastCell. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
75. Support Before this started I may have voted oppose or neutral based on history but seeing how he realizes that he is fallable and admits to it, I feel he recognizes his faults, realizes that he may do it again but knows when to ask for help or backdown when he makes a mistake instead of joining on bandwagons. I think many on here need to follow that example.Marauder40 (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
76. support per most of the opposes William M. Connolley (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
77. Support, we're all only human (well, apart from User:Bishzilla). We all make mistakes, and the candidate is wise enough to admit to his. Running for reconfirmation when there has been as much controversy as there has been around this user is in my view the correct thing to do, and I'm supporting because of this. However, I would ask that the candidate take the good faith comments in the oppose section to heart and be extra careful using the tools in cases where they might be involved. Lankiveil 21:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC).

    That, I can pretty well guarantee you at this point. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

78. Support - sure, some things could have been done better, but could this not be said of all of us. Prepared to take things on even if unpopular. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
79. Support Doesn't seem to abuse the tools and just needs to pull the throttle back a bit. No reason to desysop. — BQZip01 —  23:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
80. Support, It was a nonconstructive, dramatic question at HJ's RFA, with a nonconstructive, dramatic answer and this is a nonconstructive, dramatic RFA. No where is it written that admins who make the wrong decisions need to be desysopped, and I'm not going to pick and choose mistakes or bad choices so I can take part in the rare opportunity to desysop one. The lack of new admins is enough of a problem, we don't need current ones giving up the mop. It would really be a shame to see Sarek lose the mop in this ridiculous bureaucratic bullshit. Swarm 23:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
81. Support. It's clear Sarek has made some mistakes with the tools, and has been opposed below on the basis of those. I find it really hard, however, to ignore the huge amount of good work he has done in generally mucky areas. The overriding principle for me, then, is that adminship is no big deal. I have no doubt that if he slips again that it will be dealt with as it has been before (with, perhaps, a slightly different attitude from Sarek based on what's happened here), and as far as I can tell the previous issues were generally resolved. If he were running for ArbCom or asking for the oversight bit or something along those lines, it would be a different story for me, because those are bigger deals (even though they sometimes makes mistakes, too ;)). But I haven't been convinced that allowing Sarek to have the sysop bit would be a net negative for the project, and on that basis I support his reconfirmation. bou·le·var·dier (talk) 02:20, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Strong oppose—Make no mistake, I think that Sarek is a good editor in general, and I think it was a real pity that they became an admin, because it's simply a job towards which they are not suited which dragged them away from one to which they were. Most disturbing are Sarek's various problems with WP:INVOLVED which are often (though admittedly not always) combined with an outright refusal to recognise that there is an issue. There have also been some problems with the use of rollback for non-vandalism edits as well as with starting WP:ANI threads without notifying the subjects Please note that these concerns of mine are very much in decreasing order of severity (failure to notify being nowhere near as big a problem as UNINVOLVED violations) and to end on a light note: a genuine well-done to Sarek for taking a couregeous decision to stand for reconfirmation. Yes, I hope it fails, but it is definitely the right thing to do, and I respect that. ╟─TreasuryTag►stannary parliament─╢ 21:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   Sincere thanks for your good wishes, TT.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   TT, this is the friendliest oppose I've seen in a while, and I have to give you credit for it. Drmies (talk) 15:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   Not to pile on, but I saw the first oppose to be from TT and thought, "Oh dear". Then I read it, and it was very thoughtful and fair. I wish every oppose could be as cordial at RFA. -- Atama頭 22:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Oppose all reconfirmation RFA. If the community wants reconfirmation RFA then it can demand them, until then admins should have enough judgement to decide whether they are able to function properly, and if they don't to resign. Wasting everyone's time with another needless distraction because egos need stroked is not helpful. If you can't judge for yourself whether you are a good admin, then you lack the judgement to be an admin.--Scott Mac 22:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

   I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning at all. There is a general community feeling that admin accountability is a Good Thing, although there's no consensus on how to achieve it. This is one approach to providing personal accountability, and as good as any until "the community" makes up its mind on what it wants. It is normal for a responsible person to want some sort of external review of their job performance - I don't understand why it's considered a form of ego-boosting here, especially since most RfA's I've seen are fairly ego-damaging. MastCell  20:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

3. Oppose The concerns that TreasuryTag brought up lead me to believe that this is the best option. Your, perceived, over reliance on cowboy diplomacy leads me to question your judgment. I would like admins to have at least a GA under their belt if they aren't a gnome. I am looking and I can't find evidence of one; I can't even find a DYK. --Guerillero | My Talk 23:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
4. Oppose I posed questions 6 and 7 above. I perceive SarekOfVulcan as issuing blocks and making proposals without due care for persons hurt. About SarekOfVulcan blocking me, another editor commented SarekOfVulcan has, yet again, descended upon a prominent content editor, vulnerable because he lacks the protection of having "administrator" status, and has blocked him. That seems to be what SarekOfVulcan is here for. Is there any administrator who has made more dubious blocks on prominent content editors over the past year? and said more, too, in this strongly put diff, later amended to this still strong statement of concern about the demeaning environment created. I perceive SarekOfVulcan as too involved, also, in blocks and proposals he has made regarding me. I don't watch AN and ANI generally, but I was surprised by one or two other blocks he imposed. I think there can be some value in some unexpected blocks, like it sometimes can shake things up in a good way, but the costs can be high, too, hurting editors and the culture we mostly enjoy. SarekOfVulcan's blocks seem out of control to me. I am open to reading how SarekOfVulcan responds to my questions 6 and 7 above, but think i should be honest that my position is to oppose based on my experience. --doncram 00:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   What arrogance! for SarekOfVulcan to respond with a one word dismissal and a "see above", in response to my questions 6 and 7 above, which are serious questions. I am appalled. --doncram 10:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

5. Oppose Too many admins already. Self-nominations are prima facie evidence of hunger for power. Reconfirmation RFAs are wrong for many reasons. I have concerns with the diffs presented by previous opposers. I may revisit and start looking for some specific problems (and I do have some real concerns, but would have to dig for them) - but take your pick. I would prefer that this be withdrawn before I come back tomorrow. In the meantime: have you resigned your bit at Meta and made clear that reassignment is strictly contingent on success here? Franamax (talk) 05:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   As I mentioned above, yes, I got the bit flipped before I transcluded this. I didn't make it clear, because I thought it already was. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   To bolster my oppose statement, I'll draw on an example from this very RFA. In response to (current) !oppose #20, at 21:29 03May11 SOV says "You call this an insult, but it's far more insulting to me that you're opposing solely for that reason.". This exemplifies a theme I've noticed here, that of an editor refractory to discussion, and instead prone to escalation. I can't read that as anthing other than an escalation, the only way I could contribute is to say that I am even far more insulted by your being insulted in any way, and it's insulting to even have to think about being insulted. That approach rarely leads to positive outcomes, and IMO is not acceptable in an admin candidate. I'll expand on that, what positive outvome did you anticipate as a result of your comment? (And BTW, SOV I thought/think that you do a lot of good work and are probably net-positive as an admin, but I'm staying here as a +o as you are now showing signs of meltdown in your own RFA). Franamax (talk) 00:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

6. Oppose this sysop has an unfortunate tendency to take administrative actions against editors with who he is involved. I do not think this reflects well on his judgement. He is quick to wield the block when perhaps more flexibility is called for. I do not care for the tone of a couple of his answers above (Qs 4, 5 & 6) they seem unbecoming for an administrator. I believe the project will be better off if he does not have his tools returned. Lovetinkle (talk) 07:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
7. Oppose Sorry, I was less than overwhelmed by the whole involved incident. Admins should avoid actions which skirt policy unless there is no alternative, and even then should hesitate. Without prejudice to another attempt in six months if this fails.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:51, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
8. Oppose Waste of time. Spartaz 11:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
9. Oppose While I was considering supporting as I like the idea of reconfirmations, the answer to question 5 shows that this admin is unwilling to address what seems to be the biggest issue brought up in this process. The non-answer to question 6 implies a logical fallacy that doesn't exist, and is pretty much "conduct unbecoming" for an admin. Admins unwilling to discuss have no business holding the title. Jim Miller 13:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   I'm willing to discuss, I'm just not willing to answer "and have you stopped beating your wife"-type questions. If you would like to rephrase Doncram's questions so that they don't fall into that category, I'm sure I'll be able to answer them to your satisfaction.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   So why did you not offer that explanation as an answer above? Doncram explicitly asked, "Why did you not answer these questions, and will you answer them now, or explain why not?" ... in case you missed that.Griswaldo (talk) 13:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   He did, if you get the "Mu" reference. But I don't see the questions as being that type. Why open an Requested Move without taking a position? An RM is a request and the opener should make such a request when it is opened. This is pretty clear in the instructions when substing the move template as well as at WP:RM. The other question is why open an RfCU and not even endorse it to continue? (THAT one seems like pure drama mongering and little else). Facilitating dicussion is certainly something that admins are expected to do, but opening the discussion invokes WP:INVOLVED so I fail to see any reason not to provide the answers requested. Opening a discussion and not participating in that discussion has no valid purpose that I can see. I believe that doncram's question equated to why did you not address those direct questions in the linked discussions? Jim Miller 13:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   I opened the RFC/U because I think that Doncram's editing frequently has issues that need to be addressed -- for a recent example, when he claimed that much of Grand Forks was damaged in a fire in 1894 (on three different articles) on the strength of a source that stated "Over 60 percent of the commercial buildings in Grand Forks and much of the rebuilding of Fargo, N.D. after the 1894 fire were the work of Dinnie Brothers". The reason I didn't certify it myself is that I didn't feel I had put enough effort into dispute resolution, rather than acting administratively. Two other editors attempted to certify it, but for some reason (probably the same one as my lack of certification) it was ruled uncertified and deleted on Doncram's request. Had the RFC/U continued, I'm sure I would have continued to participate. As far as the RM for Jonesborough goes, I opened it to bring closure to the discussion and to bring in uninvolved editors. I made the statement of the issue as neutral as I could, and pointed to the previous discussion. Since neutrality in stating the grounds for discussion is generally considered a good thing, I was not terribly pleased to have Doncram badger me over multiple venues (now including this one) to explicitly take a stand in the discussion -- especially since I could be assumed to support the move by opening the discussion in the first place and not stating my neutrality.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   Oh I get it, finally, about the 1894 fire! SarekOfVulcan seemed certainly snide here, but i didn't get from his unclear edit summaries elsewhere, that I had apparently misread Fargo for Grand Forks. There were numerous floods and fires in these North Dakota cities in the 1890's, including a Grand Forks flood in 1893, and I was working on an article about bricklayers who worked in both. He could have just pointed it out clearly in any one edit summary or at my Talk page. There is no one claiming I deliberately add misinformation or that I often make errors of fact like that, requiring administrative actions. That's a red herring about me. And I thought it was rudely put. --doncram 01:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

   Shall we discuss John W. Ross, the "architect in Davenport, Iowa and in Grand Forks, North Dakota"? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

   Oh, and it gets better. "John Wesley Ross was an architect in Davenport, Iowa.... John Ross came to Davenport in 1874.... He was born in Massachusetts in 1932 and lives in Davenport, Iowa.... John Wesley Ross, originally of Westfield, Massachusetts, moved to Davenport in 1874 or 1876." That is the article he just created in mainspace.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

   I'll comment about SarekOfVulcan's involvedness and nonresponsiveness in the area that I know about, i.e. in his recent interactions with me.

   That's ridiculous, not a responsive answer, to suggest that my good development of that info when developing several related articles, is reason to open an RFCU! About "badgering" you to give an answer, why not give a reasonable answer somewhere, preferably where first asked? I am indeed frustrated by your non-responsiveness, particularly regarding administrative actions you have taken. About Jonesborough, you actually blocked me for this edit, which, discussed in the unblock request by others is viewed as mild, and not in the realm of the personal attacks / negative statements, used by Orlady in related discussions. More seriously, why did you yourself not substantially reply to my questions in my unblock request, where I repeated that I really did not see justification for the block? The unblock was declined by another admin, correctly noting i have been involved in unpleasant discussions, but you, highly involved in many of the discussions, should a) not be the one blocking me, and b) strive to make a block decision understandable when requested. It was a bad block, hitting me unfairly when I always responded more mildly. To top it off, you soon after opened a new wp:AN proceeding to ban a main part of my editing, upon your noticing negative discussion at Talk:Orlady about me, where you should have observed i did nothing at all related to the just-ended block. You instead opened a new big proceeding, to ban me, on entirely unrelated matter. With more history, too, this adds up to badgering by involved you, of me, with unresponsive non-answers to my pointing out obvious unfairness or asking reasonable questions.

   As I stated in my unblock request, "Further discussion about the block, including my not understanding what standard SarekOfVulcan is applying, follows below and should be considered part of this unblock request. I am really really not understanding justification for this block, and SarekOfVulcan seems not to be explaining." He never did. He threw up additional diffs, which I responded to and showed he was incorrect in several understandings. Raising more question why the block should have been imposed and sustained. (I do understand that a truly non-involved admin, like the person who declined the block, could fairly see my comments elsewhere as negative, and would not know what involved SarekOfVulcan should have weighed, regarding my comments being fairly consistently milder than others. So i did the block without further complaint.) --doncram 18:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

   And regarding Q5, I'm certainly willing to address the issue, and as I've stated elsewhere on the page, have made steps in that direction. I'm just not willing to straight-out promise that I'll never ever again act when someone might accuse me of being WP:INVOLVED. It's not reasonable or realistic.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   With respect to that RFCU (specifically this redlinked RFCU), I see it as an instance in which SoV was making a valiant good-faith effort to bring closure to a long-standing "situation," but flubbed the initiative as a result of not yet being sufficiently WP:INVOLVED to be aware of all of the angles and nuances. His RFCU was drafted too narrowly to encompass the issues, IMO, and the timing was bad because it coincided with a mediation process that had been started very quietly (and that he probably wasn't aware of). As I see it, his not certifying it was simply an acknowledgment that it was the wrong time and place for the effort. I am grateful for his willingness to step in and try to resolve situations like that one; I can't criticize him for not succeeding in every attempt. --Orlady (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

   Whether that is accidental or deliberate misrepresentation by Orlady, I cannot say, but Orlady is incorrect. SarekOfVulcan was fully aware of the mediation process between me and another editor that had started, resulting from a block on the two of us (that i think was imposed by SarekOfVulcan), and he was also involved in suggesting/encouraging that editor to be involved (completely inappropriately IMHO) as a certifier of the RFCU, interfering with and ruining the mediation. It showed terrible judgment on SarekOfVulcan's part, I thought. I could dig out diffs and provide by email, maybe, am not wanting to drag that other editor in. Disclosure: Orlady was involved as a late certifier in that RFCU; Orlady is involved in longterm disputes with me derived from following and criticizing my edits, that constitute wp:wikihounding in my view; and SarekOfVulcan has occasionally gotten involved in those disputes. --doncram 14:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

   Doncram's memory of the sequence of events is probably better than mine. Regardless, I do know that I did not certify that RFCU at first because I was hoping that the mediation would prove to be more productive than ended up being the case. Furthermore, I believe that all participants would recall that Sarek initially became engaged with that "situation" as an uninvolved party who was attempting to settle a dispute. He should not be blamed for not succeeding. --Orlady (talk) 00:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

10. Oppose, but only because I would oppose a new admin candidate if they answered Question 6 as you have here. I think the term "Conduct unbecoming", above, is too much - but it is a bit off-putting. I may swap over to Support later on, though - Sarek is a good admin who does good work and gets his hands dirty. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:28, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
11. Oppose Per history with the block tool. Too many blocks that have needed to be reversed by clearer thinking admins at ANI.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
12. Oppose per Cube lurker and also too much drama. Agent Vodello 14:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
13. Oppose Per Cube lurker. SarekOfVulcan's use of the block tool has been questionable. HeyMid (contribs) 15:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose. Too many mistakes regarding WP:INVOLVED. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose. A few mistakes involving WP:INVOLVED are tolerable; we all get hotheaded in disputes. But a lot of them have been made, and there is a fundamental failure to agree to pursue compliance with policy (see #5). --Rschen7754 16:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
16. Oppose. I am sure that he has the best of intentions and is an excellent editor, but WP:INVOLVED is very important. Racepacket (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
17. Oppose, per my conversation with Sarek below and in reference to WP:UNINVOLVED.Griswaldo (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    I'd like to add that several "support" comments have now pointed out that admins are not infallible, while suggesting that they should be allowed to make some mistakes. I think many of us who oppose agree with this 100%, but the issue is that we're not sure that Sarek actually realizes that he is fallible, and that's the problem. He certainly does not think he has made mistakes regarding WP:INVOLVED, when many do, included many "support" voters. That attitude is more of a problem than simply making a mistake or two.Griswaldo (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    Oh, darned right I realize I'm fallible, that's why I opened this RfA. I never said I hadn't made mistakes with WP:INVOLVED, and I'm not sure where you got that from.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    He might have got that idea from what has been said on this page: "I'm not seeing responses taking account of others' concerns. I don't see "reason" fields or block notices take pains to explain to the blocked user or reviewers why you (as an apparently involved admin) have acted. I don't see links to immediate reporting to a noticeboard (or a note that you consult by other means) saying that you have acted due to perceived risk but the matter needs review/confirmation/undoing now the crisis is over. I don't see you showing awareness of the need to learn from cases when errors arise, or where looking back you could have avoided drama by better consideration of others's views (if you have changed anything as a result to reduce problems then please correct me). I don't see, in brief, a kind of humility and a wish to take effort specifically to avoid any misconception by the affected user, and that bothers me". "There is a dividing line between good judgment in hard cases, and ignoring good practice when it really has a purpose and wouldn't cause harm." And you haven't provided any assurance in response to "I'd expect that if a problem arises, the response isn't phrased to seem "offhand" or appearing on the verge of dismissive...When a matter is contentious I'd expect you to at least "step into others' shoes" and make abundantly clear that you anticipate and respond to others' legitimate and easily anticipated concerns." Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    Sarek, saying, "of course I make mistakes sometimes" is not the same as recognizing and admitting to a concrete mistake that you've made. You say, "I never said I hadn't made mistakes with WP:INVOLVED," but you have also never owned up to any such mistakes that I have seen. At AN/I you certainly argued against the notion that you were involved. You didn't even admit to making a mistake when you undid the removal of talk page privileges to Avanu. Instead you chalked it up to abiding by consensus (which of course is admirable but it skirts the issue of whether what you did was wrong or not). In my mind you've been skirting ownership of mistakes this whole time. If I'm wrong and have gotten a false impression then prove it to me. Show me where you admit to having made a mistake, a concrete mistake. You also seem not to understand that a lot of people have this impression and that its rubbing them all kinds of wrong. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    16:19, 24 August 2010 SarekOfVulcan (talk | contribs) blocked Sheodred (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (Edit warring: Reverting after warning)

    16:25, 24 August 2010 SarekOfVulcan (talk | contribs) unblocked "Sheodred (talk | contribs)" ‎ (involved admin, shouldn't have blocked)

    Given the 6 minutes between block and unblock, I have to assume I recognized that error myself, rather than being told to reverse it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    See also here, where I stated that I was wrong to delete one of TreasuryTag's edit summaries, and here, where I agreed not to use admin tools against TreasuryTag because it was possible that I had crossed the INVOLVED line. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    I note that during the INVOLVED issue with TT you link above you do not admit to making a mistake, instead skirt around the issue, like with Avanu, by saying "It's possible I've crossed the INVOLVED line with TT at some point, so to be safe ..." SandyGeorgia had asked for an "acknowledgement" of "involved", and that was your answer to it. On the other hand I am sincerely happy to see in your evidence above that you apologize to TT for an unrelated matter, and to see your block reversal statement for Sheodred as well. Clearly you are capable of recognizing and correcting some of your mistakes. That said the Sheodred example appears to be something you realized yourself and went back and corrected on your own. A lot of the comments Ncmvocalist quoted above deal with situations in which others point out a mistake of yours, like the involved issue with Avanu, and your reaction to those people. I doubt there were be this much comment about the matter if it didn't warrant some reflection on your part. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    "you apologize to TT for an unrelated matter" -- nope, same matter. The pledge to not take admin action against TT because of INVOLVED issues was a direct result of the edit summary discussion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

18. Oppose In his time as an administrator, Sarek has repeatedly taken administrative action while involved, violating our longstanding policy. For me, that is problematic enough to decline to re-sysop. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 21:20, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
19. Oppose per TreasuryTag, and I do not accept Q5 - blatantly stating that you are not prepared to adhere to policy. If you think the policy is wrong, then you know where to go to change it; however, it is absolutely essential that admins respect the community consensus- whether the admin feels it is right or wrong. IAR is complex, but this crosses the line.  Chzz  ►  21:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    Just to clarify a bit, Q5 was asking him to go beyond the minimum defined by policy and instead adopt a best practice. While we should all strive to follow best practices, refusing to do so is not necessarily the same as refusing to follow policy as arrived at by community consensus. Monty₈₄₅ 22:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    Exactly. I have no problem _trying_ to observe best practices, but I refuse to promise to always follow them, because I _will_ lapse. To think otherwise would be fooling myself. Therefore, I'm not going to make the promise in the first place. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    That is actually incorrect. Two sections below the one that WP:INVOLVED links to the matter is stated emphatically - Administrators should not use their tools ... in a content dispute (or article) where they are a party (or significant editor) ... The actual blurb is longer and I condensed it only for brevity's sake, but this is a clear directive not just a suggestion for best practice. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    The section specifically says "Although there are exceptions to the prohibition on involved editors taking administrative action, it is best practice in cases where an administrator may be seen to be involved that they pass the matter to another administrator via the relevant noticeboards." Monty₈₄₅ 22:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    As I stated I was quoting from the section two below INVOLVED - it is called "Misuse of administrative tools" and has no direct link. That section contains the text I quoted, and it is prefaced thus: "Common situations where avoiding tool use is often required:" Often required, is much stronger than "best practice". Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    There is discretion in all policies - that's why we have IAR, and (one hopes!) common sense. It is up to each of us to determine when it is appropriate to stick to the 'rules', and when it is in the best interests of the project to break them. I fully appreciate that is a subjective judgement, but to me, in regards to INVOLVED, your stated viewpoint crosses the threshold of sensibly ignoring rules, and steps into slightly rouge territory. I hope you can understand why I have thus landed in 'oppose'. I'm quite happy to discuss it further, and if you wish to move it to my talk page, or the talk page of this RfA, feel free. I take no pleasure in opposing; I can see you want to do the best for Misplaced Pages. But choosing when to IAR is a critical aspect of admin judgement.  Chzz  ►  07:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

20. In the past I have voted neutral on these reconfirmation RFAs. However, I feel, since they seem to be proliferating, that a stronger statement is necessary. I regard them as an insult to me as an administrator; they suggest that by not submitting myself (again) to the nonsense at RFA, I am somehow less committed. (This is the same comment I am making at HJ Mitchell's.) Chick Bowen 21:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    You call this an insult, but it's far more insulting to me that you're opposing solely for that reason. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

    Obviously we will have to differ about that. I believe in this case that your action, however well-intentioned, is damaging to the administrator corp as a whole. Given that belief, I have little choice but to oppose. I do so with regret. Chick Bowen 22:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

21. From what I've seen, this user tends to not stay neutral, and bites the newcomers often as well. Weak oppose, because he is a good editor. Ajraddatz (Talk) 23:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
22. Oppose Pointless self aggrandizing. Admins are supposed to defuse needless drama not create it. If this unrequested reconfirmation circle jerk isn't nipped in the bud by someone failing one then everyone will start doing it and nobody will get anything done. Nick mallory (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
23. Oppose The purpose of this RFA is to ascertain whether the Community will elect SarekOfVulcan on the condition that he is permitted disregard parts of the very policy that we created (standards and expectations of an admin). When I say disregard, I'm not talking about occasional mistakes and lapses; I am talking about actions and comments which are made with a view that he should be allowed to make them because he has the privileges to do so. I'm not willing to elect on that condition. Sometimes admins are given feedback and asked to modify the way they act, and where they cannot or will not do so, are advised to avoid certain areas/actions/comments (eg; this candidate refers to an admin by the name of Sandstein above; recently, that admin was counselled and advised by AC in relation to a specific area ). But where an admin puts his own views ahead of the feedback and is unwilling or unable to avoid those areas/actions/comments, we prevent the problem from arising again. Policy is not just a statement for non-Wikipedians to understand how this project works; it exists to protect the project and hold users accountable where necessary too. Likewise, the protections that policy holds for admins (such as some of the involved provisions) are not to be relied upon as wikilawyering material when taking an action; those policy protections are for situations where genuine accidents and rare slight lapses have occurred; it's a matter of circumstances. When an admin knowingly goes out of his way to do something more than just questionable (because he has the privileges to do so), that is NOT ok. Also, admins should not set or follow poor examples, and it is unhelpful to the project to unnecessarily escalate/inflame disputes. The candidate's response for making blocks where he may be involved is that it is time-sensitive and that it will become stale by the time he reports it; in that case, is action absolutely necessary at the point at which he takes it or is DR more appropriate given his position? Privileges were given to use with good judgement both for the benefit of the project and in accordance with standards/expectations; that does not include toeing the line in terms of misuse and enforcing personal views ahead of the expectations of the Community. Sadly, what I asked in my support vote in 2008 seems to have been ignored by him, much like some other genuine concerns expressed by others, as of late. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
24. Oppose I'm afraid I can't support an (ex-admin) that would use admin actions all-out on all WP conflicts, which does not seem to actually achieve community consensus. Based on his resignation of the tools, I believe he's better off without them. But do not let this distrust SarekOfVulcan from contributing to WP; after all, we are all volunteers, aren't we? hmssolent\Let's convene 04:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
25. Oppose I'm not happy with the sequence of events starting when the candidate self-requested a 3RR block, which was granted (and later revoked) with much drama. The candidate then used the aforementioned controversial block as precedence for another controversial block. That kind of behavior troubles me. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 06:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
26. Oppose I was going to go 'Neutral' as I did for HJ Mitchell, as I feel that reconfirmation RfAs are a waste of time if someone has not had an RFC/U which concludes a reconfirmation RfA would be a good idea. However, the problem you seem to have with WP:INVOLVED (and the self-requested 3RR block mentioned by Orange Suede Sofa directly above me) means that I do not have confidence in your ability to be an impartial admin, and so I feel that I must (with a little regret) oppose. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 09:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
27. Strong oppose—Like many of the comments above, a most unsatisfactory editor for the admin role. There are so many instances in which his judgement has been ill-considered that I won't bother to list them here. Likely to drive good editors away. Tony (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
28. Oppose - So instead of vowing to stop using your tools when you are involved in a dispute, you actually tell everyone in this very RFA that you will continue to do so? That doesn't make much sense. And answering questions with "mu" is not a particularly smart way to go about convincing people that you will communicate effectively with other editors. Seems kind of arrogant to me. If you weren't an admin before, there is no way this RFA would pass. Tex (talk) 17:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    What, you want me to lie and say "I'll never ever be stupid again, world without end, Amen"? I'm not going to insult your intelligence by making promises I can't keep. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    You're insulting our intelligences. You know very well that if you said, "I should not have blocked Avanu because I was too involved. I will try my best not to do that in the future but I can't guarantee that I wont make a stupid mistake again," that you'd be passing this RfA with 99%. But that's not something you've said to date.Griswaldo (talk) 18:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    Well, don't I get any points for refusing to say that just to get people to switch? The second sentence, absolutely yes. The first one, I still don't see what made me too involved to act administratively.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

29. This is poor judgment; I think bans are a serious matter. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    I was serious. Both sides of this debate have been far–too–disruptive for far—too—long. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    When I said bans are a serious matter, I did not mean to imply that you were not serious in your suggestion. Instead, I meant to imply that you were very cavalier about supporting bans. Eg, you suggested banning me in the supplied diff, and I assert that that is totally absurd, hence this oppose !vote. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

    I closed one of the RM's for Mexican American War, so by a liberal enough reading, I was including myself. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

30. Weak Oppose q5 doesnt sit well with me- agree with chzz and others concerns as above on this. Ottawa4ever (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
31. Oppose Very active editor, and no doubt an asset to the Project; but certainly not in this role. Too trigger-happy, too unsubtle in judgement. Noetica 23:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
32. Oppose I am sorry Sarek you have explicitly stated that you are not going to follow WP:INVOLVED.... end of story. It waste every one's time when people are discussing the Admin making the block instead of the disruptive editors actions. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 02:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

    No, I explicitly stated that I couldn't promise to strictly follow INVOLVED in all cases, not that I wouldn't, or wouldn't try -- and believe me, after all this analysis, I'll be trying a lot harder if I'm reconfirmed.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

I don't want to support or oppose here, but this user seems to do a lot of blocks where they are WP:INVOLVED. --Rschen7754 21:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Moving to oppose. --Rschen7754 16:28, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Move to oppose (per conversation below) I have the same hang up here as Rschen7754. I initiated one of the subthreads at AN/I that Treasury Tag linked to above, relating to the block of Avanu, who should have been blocked, but IMO not by Sarek. I did not find his responses to the situation adequate, and I note that quite a few editors commenting there didn't either. Do I think its worth opposing him as an admin? Not at all, as others say I'm sure he's otherwise a good editor and admin. I would also be willing to support if he was willing to promise that in the future he would stay clear of any situation where others would consider him involved.Griswaldo (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)