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improve

This article seems to have been a stub forever. It contains no sources (have added a tag for it). Looks like self promotion WP:SOAP And has too many links that go to same site WP:ELNO MakeSense64 (talk) 12:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Serious notability concerns. I checked selected online media sources in Britain, Ireland, US, worldwide, casting a wide net -- no mention of her from reporters or valid secondary sources. Looks like this article is self-promotion.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

However she's a published author, with results on Google Books. My sense is: the article needs cleanup.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Better, but I think serious notability concerns remain here. Author of a single book that appears to be self-published, and republished by some non-notable publisher. The mention of her book should go in a bibliography section. But then the biography itself is again without independant references, and falls back almost completely on self-published sources. Is a single book showing up in google book search, and a few trivial mentions in other non-notable publications enough to support notability?

The last paragraph "In 2002, Houlding launched an Internet astrological website entitled Skyscript. She studies the history of astrology, runs her own school of horary (STA), and writes regularly for the Mountain Astrologer magazine. Her book The Houses: Temples of the Sky was expanded and published by Wessex Astrologer in 2006." seems to be largely redundant, but if I merge it in the rest of the article what will be left that can be sourced indepedantly ? MakeSense64 (talk) 07:00, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I am also finding that according to notability(books) a book is not notable just because it has ISBN number and appears in google book search. -- If the book is not notable then we will need other references to establish that this author is notable. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Generally I agree with your thinking here.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Further, I've noticed new unsourced additions to this article along with more links which look a lot like spam. My sense is either this article should be stripped substantially or else put up for deletion.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Just take a look at the contributor who made these changes. Special:Contributions/Clooneymark All the edits he made yesterday consists of adding more external links to the skyscript website. A clear case of spam and using wikipedia for self-promotion. That makes me think: put up for deletion. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually, clicking on 'diff' I see that the only editing this Clooneymark has ever done is adding links to same website (probably his own). What is the wikipedia policy in such a case? Remove these spam links? MakeSense64 (talk) 07:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Misplaced Pages does not like link spam, and what else is this. I'll support your decision whether you decide to delete or trim it.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Pretty pissed to log in today and find my edits of yesterday removed because someone thinks that adding relevant information makes me a spammer. MakeSense is not making sense here. Check the links - those I added to this page are directly relevant to Deborah Houlding because she is the creator of the Skyscript website. Skyscript is an important website for astrologers, so to drop mention of her creating Skyscript is like dropping mention of Misplaced Pages from the Jimmy Wales page. (Without that mention where's the logic for adding the Skyscript site to the external links section?). Let's see the other 'spam' links I added - a link to her personal website and to a published personal interview by Garry Phillipson which shows why she is known for being "one of the foremost practitioners of horary astrology". There's other interviews - one here on an Amercian site http://gryphonastrology.com/blog/2008/07/07/interview-with-astrologer-deborah-houlding-part-1-of-3/ and one here on a leading Greek astrology website:

http://www.myhoroscope.gr/140-%F3%F5%ED%E5%ED%F4%E5%FD%EE%E5%E9%F2/10105-deborah-houlding-traditional-modernist-exclusive.html#post106253 - but the interview link I gave is better IMO.

Makesense, the reason my adds were from one site yesterday is because I was on it yesterday and thought they were good, convenient links to add. I dip in to Misplaced Pages when I can to add what I think are useful non-controversial bits of info. I'm not gonna get into flamming rants so do as you please but I think you should reinstate my edits and show a little more good faith here Clooneymark (talk) 12:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Being an editor on WP is not about getting pissed when *your* external links get trimmed, it is about improving the articles to get them up to standards, which is explained in detail in the guidelines and WP policy pages. If you had read those policies, then you would know that an external link to personal website is normally limited to one link, not 5 going through different sections on the same domain. -- Also have a look at WP:V, quoting: The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth — whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. -- Another core principle is neutral point of view WP:NPOV . If you are getting pissed because *your* external links get trimmed, then it is rather doubtful whether you have the NPOV to edit the article in question. Do you agree? MakeSense64 (talk) 07:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Im not pissed because my links were trimmed. I add info and people can keep it or not. That's fine. I'm pissed that I contributed what im my view was useful and relevant infomation and without anyone even bothering to say hello let alone have a word in my ear, you came in with all your guns blazing and your knife at my throat, to givv me a final warning about my spamming activity. I wouldnt have challenged any edit except for that. Yesterday I logged in and found your message labelling me a spammer. Thats why I'm pissed. You got that wrong but you made the mistake on my user page, not yours.

The links issue is not straightforward here because of the subject of the page runs the site that has the best information about her. I think you are completely wrong but will assume you thought you had reason and leave it at that. But you should add back the info about Deborah Houlding creating the Skyscript site and be clear about that because its significant and verifyable. Do you agree? Clooneymark (talk) 08:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Discussion about your spam warning belongs to your talk page, not here on the Deborah Houlding talk page. Life is easier when you keep things where they belong. It makes no sense to go on telling me how 'completely wrong' I am, in short: the final warning you got is what WP guidelines call for If an editor spams numerous articles in a systematic fashion... -- WP guidelines are clear that reliable *outside* sources are need to make an article verifiable. So they cannot come from a person's own website. -- Your continued insistence that start of the Skyscript website should be mentioned in this biography (and added into numerous other articles), suggests that there is some conflict of interest at work here. See WP:CONFLICT. Don't blame me for the WP guidelines. If you don't agree with some WP guidelines then there are places where you can go and make your case. MakeSense64 (talk) 10:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a great resource and works well because of its rules which have succeeded in becoming a valuable worldwide free compendium of all kinds of knowledge. Because it has great information, because it doesn't have much advertising, it earns tremendous readership -- huge volumes of eyeballs. But this readership attracts all kinds of purposes too -- it makes it extremely tempting for advertisers to slip in fluff, extraneous stuff to make a person or product or company look great; it tempts fans of celebrities to write about how great they are, forgetting to try to be neutral and impartial. It even affects well-meaning and smart people to write about what they think is important. To keep Misplaced Pages great, we need to constantly police each other -- to question each other's additions -- to ask: hey does this belong? Does this article follow the rules? Of course it leads to all kinds of battling among egos (which we all have) but out of this battling a great thing emerges. It gets all of us -- I've had whole articles deleted -- ones which I worked hard on -- which I thought were good -- but it's the community overall were nonplussed with. It can also be a great learning experience too. In terms of this specific article, I recommend keeping it short -- including only stuff for which there are reliable references -- if it gets too long, with too many links (why isn't one enough?) it begins to look like advertising, and it makes the entire community look bad if it stays. When there is unsourced information, it's like asking everybody to trust that whoever added it was right -- and that's why there are policies such as verifying sources.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

THanks for taking time to comment Tomwsulcer. I understand your point, appreciate you taking time out to put it that way - will definitely by wary in future, no worries. Sure, one link is enough when you put it like that. I don't want to get locked into an ego battle or detract from the issue of what information ought to be on the page. Getting back to the point, I asked "But you should add back the info about Deborah Houlding creating the Skyscript site and be clear about that because its significant and verifyable. Do you agree?" I think Makesense64 you just evaded that by implying I only think so because I have a bias, instead of sticking to the matter of relevancy, reliability, neutrality, etc. It's a valid question on a legitimate point which concerns notability. It seems obvious to me and that's why I'm having a hard time figuring out why there is even an issue about this. This link leads to numerous reliable *outside* sources which show that Houlding is notable in her own right and also because "she has assembled a vast and wonderful Web site whose emphasis is the history, development..." etc. http://pipl.com/directory/people/Deborah/Houlding

Am I being insistent to give a reply that underlines the obvious (as I see it)?? Can't see how it makes sense to give the one external link to the Skyscript site instead of her personal website at www.debhoulding.co.uk if you are going to censor mention of her being the creator of the skyscript site in the bio details. Will be happy to follow Tomwsulcers view here since he seems to have a good handle on what works best for the page Clooneymark (talk) 12:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) My hunch is that the article is a bit long -- that less is more (and less => better overall) -- since the entire second paragraph has no references. I kept some material in when I worked on the article earlier (and I added three references) since I figured the existing material was probably right, but I was guessing. You see, information about someone having a brain tumor -- suppose this information is incorrect -- we're talking about a living person here -- we should probably remove information like that unless we can back it up. My sense is that if the article is safer (safer meaning less likely to be deleted) when it's shorter, tighter, to the point, with more references (ie not just to her books, but reliable sources in secondary publications). I think you should choose one external link and leave it at that; and I'd listen to MakeSense's ideas about the article if you'd like to keep it here. If the article stays bloated, without sufficient references, other contributors will come along and press for deletion. It happens.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the Elwell article and then this to find better refs. Will follow Makesense's suggestion on the Elwell page to post my proposed edit for discussion rather than add it to the page. Short is fine as long as we dont cut out the points of notability and leave the stuff that's inconsequential. I'll do some research first before making more suggestions.Clooneymark (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

We need to adhere to Biographies of living persons for this article, and focus on Verifiability as well. Things which we cannot verify should not be there, and in the case of the mention of cancer in this biography Tomwsulcer is completely right, BLP insists that such things should be removed immediately unless they can be sourced. In fact we have no reliable sources for the entire 2nd paragraph, so probably better to trim that part and then see what can be added based on proper sources. -- For BLP the advice is to avoid self-published sources , and there is also an interesting piece about People who are relatively unknown. Quoting: include only material relevant to their notability, focusing on high quality secondary sources. So this speaks in favor of shortening the article. -- Clooneymark is right to use the personal website www.debhoulding.co.uk rather than skyscript.co.uk, because the latter should be included only if we have a high quality secondary source to back up its mention in this article. Skyscript.co.uk appears to be a retail outlet and offers consultations from various astrologers as you can see here : http://www.skyscript.co.uk/begin.html . That puts it out of question to be used as a 'reliable secondary source' in WP articles about these astrologers. -- I am going to trim the article accordingly, then we can see what can be added based on BLP guidelines. -- Similar problems with the Elwell article, where Clooneymark goes on insisting to add more references to skyscript.co.uk, but we will keep that on the talk page there: Talk:Dennis_Elwell_(astrologer). The constant focus of Clooneymark seems to be to slip in links and references to skyscript.co.uk . Shouldn't we ask why? MakeSense64 (talk) 06:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I have removed material from this article that does not comply with our policy on biographies of living persons. Biographical material must always be referenced from reliable sources, especially negative material. Negative material that does not comply with that must be immediately removed. Note that the removal does not imply that the information is either true or false.

Please do not reinsert this material unless you can provide reliable citations, and can ensure it is written pursuant to WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. Please review the relevant policies before editing in this regard. Editors should note that failure to follow this policy may result in the removal of editing privileges. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Makesense64 wrote "ll article, where Clooneymark goes on insisting to add more references to skyscript.co.uk, but we will keep that on the talk page there: Talk:Dennis_Elwell_(astrologer). The constant focus of Clooneymark seems to be to slip in links and references to skyscript.co.uk . Shouldn't we ask why?"

Let’s clear this up for good and then move on. The presence of an ad doesn’t discount a page from being a WP source any more than it prevents reference links to newspaper sites or other information-based sites that carry a few ads. How do we know its credible? Easily answered. Its not about what you think or I think. Go to Google books and run a search on the word ‘Skyscript.co.uk’ and then check how many books, including academic publications, quote the site as their source of information. That also explains my use of it. In many cases its the only source of easily accessed information because it covers a specialised level of the subject that goes beyond the popular end of astrology.

I've already explained myself more than I need to, but if there is some sort of personal vendetta thing going on here let me know. I've made a big effort to get this right. Makesense64 argued that every relevant link that goes to that site is spam, and then went from complaining about too many links to one site, to dropping the mention of the site altogether in this biography of the site creator, to now suggesting it can’t be used anywhere on Misplaced Pages as a refernce for any astrologer. If he has personal vendetta or past problem with the site he should declare it. Otherwise end that subject and stick to discussing what is relevant and verifyable information on this page.

Before anyone takes seriously the suggestion that my focus is to slip in references to a "retail site" , actually go check Talk:Dennis_Elwell_(astrologer) to see what Makesense64 is talking about. I spent most of yesterday trying to figure out the code for those few paragraphs so I’m eager for feedback. Did my best to make sure every comment was attributed to a reliable source and the references are all good. Being aware of the sensitivity Makesense64 has against the site he dislikes so much, I used other sources wherever possible and if anyone can find better please do. He says we will keep the discussion on that page, but not before he mentioned it here with vague slurs that will only work if people don’t actually check to see what he is talking about. So pleae check that page: Talk:Dennis_Elwell_(astrologer).

As for the edit Makesense64 just made here - why so hasty to make such a dramatic edit immediately after I said I was doing some research and would post a suggestion with refs for discussion on this talk page? The illness thing is easily verifyable because it's been documented in published works, though I'm not convinced that's one of the relevant points of notability here. I’ll work on the history of the page and try to rescue some of the earlier details that can be substantiated though secondary source. Will aim to do that next week. I need a few days but will check all the bio policies first to make sure I get it right. Have resisted my urge to get angry about this, but Makesense64 - something from the WP to quote to you "Act in good faith, never disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point, and assume good faith on the part of others. Be open and welcoming." (Five Pillars) Clooneymark (talk) 08:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

You are unnecessarily repeating a piece of my comment with my signature in it. Please clean up. -- Let me remind you that this is the WP page about 'Deborah Houlding', it is not the WP page about 'skyscript.co.uk'. -- The article was edited by me based on BLP guidelines and after both Tomwsulcer and Clooneymark agreed to shorten the article and stick to the items that are properly sourced. This after a week of discussion. If there is concensus on some points then there is no need to wait with the edit. -- My impression is that Clooneymark is not a suitable person to contribute to this article. NPOV is lacking completely and refuses to stick to clear WP guidelines and core principles. For example talk about Elwell should be on the Elwell talk page, not here, talk about MakeSense64 should be on the MakeSense64 talk page, not here. This has now been pointed out several times already. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I assume WP does allow for page-changes even after you have discussed and made decisions yourself? Remind me again - whay is there a strap a cross the head of the article which reads:

The topic of this article may not meet the notability guideline for biographies. Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted. (May 2011)

I am answering that call. Here's the thing. My comments on Skyscript and Elwell are made in defense of the comments that you insist on introducing here. Drop it and move on. I will research to provide the requested refs, will study the policies before posting, and will post my suggestion here on the talk page for discussion. I think that shows that I am not only suitable, but also very sensible.Clooneymark (talk) 09:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) I have asked for editor assistance on this page. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Tomwsulcer's new additions are goodand get a thumbs up from me. Tomsulcher, I hope you wont object if I make some suggestions about replacing some comments with points of stronger notability because I think that there are better refs for some of the points. Will be able to check on my next visit to the library.Clooneymark (talk) 13:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello, comments noted. The material in the article at present is all based on reliable references and contributors here are doing our best, by following Misplaced Pages's rules, to make sure we follow the guidelines. And we'll be keeping watch of the article to make sure it's fair. Ms. Houlding, please email a picture of yourself to me via email at thomaswrightsulcer (AT) yahoo (DOT) com. And give me permission to post it in Wikimedia Commons under license ccsa2.5. Say when the photo was taken approximately. That way, I can include your photo in this article, thanx.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Contributors are not required to explain why they spend more or less time on WP, or why they are inactive for certain periods. There can be a myriad of reasons for that. Contributors are also not required to be neutral (usually they are not), they are only required to apply the WP guidelines and write from a NPOV, which is what we have been trying to do here. To bring challenge to an article WP:CHALLENGE is also part of what is being done here, and it is not rarely the quickest way to get an article improved ( as this case shows)

This article as I found it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Deborah_Houlding&oldid=393392111 ) violated a lot of core WP principles, so I tagged it. I found similar problems on a number of astrology related articles and biographies and tagged or improved them as well. Fact is that Tomwsulcer has done most of the trimming and editing of this article here, and now added back some things for which some reference could be found. Ms. Houlding's complaint is thus nothing but an exagerated story, most of which cannot be verified, and interestingly she has nothing to say about Clooneymark, who woke up after a long period of inactivity, only to add more external links the day after Tomwsulcer had trimmed them to one.

Ms. Houlding is asking to block me from abusing any WP page, without pointing out even a single WP page that has been abused by me.

MakeSense64 (talk) 09:06, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the comment by Ms. Houlding based on WP:OUTING MakeSense64 (talk) 09:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Unbelievable. I was just responding to the details that post. So Houlding shows that this editor is not neutral but proves that it is someone who is active in a harrasment campaign about her and the skyscript site because he has been involved in the site in the past and is now banned from it. Hence he blows a fuse at links to skyscript even when they are relevant further reading links and he tries to get her biography deleted. When that doesn't work he cuts it down to one line and try to block me as a poster because I disagee with his excessively restrictive interpretation of policies regarding Houlding's right to have her association with Skyscript known on WP. I'm still taking this in.Clooneymark (talk) 09:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

• Stub-Class England-related articles
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