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Revision as of 21:37, 11 July 2011

	Algol has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result July 31, 2006 Good article nominee Listed March 2, 2009 Good article reassessment Kept
Current status: Good article

Astronomy: Astronomical objects GA‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Astronomy, which collaborates on articles related to Astronomy on Misplaced Pages.AstronomyWikipedia:WikiProject AstronomyTemplate:WikiProject AstronomyAstronomy GA This article has been rated as GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Astronomical objects, which collaborates on articles related to astronomical objects.

Algol

Is the star system really younger than 300 million years as suggested by the box? That seems pretty young.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.24.60.12 (talk • contribs).

Yes. Massive B-class stars have a main sequence life span of 11-400 million years. — RJH (talk) 21:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Demon star

Demon Star redirects here, perhaps an explanation of this could be made in the article? Miremare 17:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems that the nick name of the the star is "Demon star".--207.68.235.128 (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Weird

the chilmead material which I guess Allen read. Nice to get one step further down the source-line. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Planets and Moons" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have made several minor corrections throughout the article. In addition I removed the movie poster lacking a fair use rationale for use in this article. I also removed the unsourced mentions in popular culture, and listed them below. If sources can be found then they can be readded to the article. Rather than developing a list, try to convert the relevant information into prose. Altogether the article is well-written and is still in great shape after its passing in 2006. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. I would recommend going through all of the citations and updating the access dates and fixing any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 01:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced information

• The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy mentions Algol several times.
• The sci-fi comedy book Bikini Planet features aliens from Algol. They are a feminist society and all have lizard-like features.
• In the short story, Beyond the Wall of Sleep, by H. P. Lovecraft, a nova is mentioned as having taken place near Algol on February 22, 1901; this nova is, according to the story, the result of an epic space battle between two incorporeal beings, known in the story as the 'entity' and the 'oppressor.'
• In the Sega video game series Phantasy Star I- IV, the star system which the series takes place in is called the Algol Solar System.
• The PS3/XBOX360 fighting game Soul Calibur 4 features a character called Algol, likely named so for his binary nature.
• Neptune Towers have released two music albums featuring Algol: Caravans to Empire Algol and Transmissions from Empire Algol. The music genre could be described as cosmic ambient.
• In the MMORPG Final Fantasy XI, a rare sword is named Algol. It is dropped by the demon-hound Cerberus (the demonic dog with three heads).
• Progressive/folk/Viking metal band Vintersorg's album Cosmic Genesis from 2000 contains a song called "Algol".
• Ra's al Ghul is one of the supervillain character in the Batman Universe.
• Dino Crisis 3 features an enemy named Algol. They are hammerheaded Velociraptors with the ability to shoot electricity and camoflauge themselves.

Error in Article

System contains the following: "Algol is 92.8 light years from Earth; however, about 7.3 million years ago it passed within 9.8 light years". If that was the case its travelled over 10 times the speed of light. I've checked the reference to get accurate information but it is subscription. Can someone please check and amend. Thanks.--94.194.237.87 (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

92.8 minus 9.8 LY = 83 LY travelled in 7.3 MILLION years implies a travel speed (with respect to the Solar system, presumably in a galactically-rotating frame of reference) of 0.00001137 LY/year, which is approximately 12271 km/hr. This is comparable to the orbital speed of the Earth with respect to the sun. Evidently a perfectly reasonable speed in celestial mechanics.(talk) 11:17, 22 February 2010)

What got me following these threads was the question : how long has the Earth been within / will the Earth remain in the region of Algol's sky where it appears as an eclipsing binary?(talk) 11:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to sign.)

Inclination terminology

It's odd that the inclinations of the two component pairs (A vs B and AB vs C) are given in different quadrants compared to the plane-of-the-sky (97degrees in one case ; 83 degrees in the other). This could mean that they've a 14degree difference between the planes of orbit (large, but not unprecedented within Sol), or that one of the components is orbiting in approximately the plane of the others, but retrograde. I'm also noting that the travel path implied elsewhere in the article is 6.04degrees to the line of sight (and therefore about 84 degrees to the plane of the sky in that direction). This could be an interesting coincidence, or it could mean that Algol has only just entered into it's period of being an eclipsing binary, or is just about to leave it. I don't have the geometry to work it out, and I'm pretty sure that the article doesn't have sufficient information to work it out. Yes, I know, "original research" ; but it's an interesting question, which may reflect on numerous other aspects of the article. Consider the implications to the most dismal of pseudosciences, astrology, if it turned out that Algol only started blinking at us at the time of the Trojan war. Aidan Karley (talk) 11:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

astrology?

Since this article is about the star, then is it normal there is also an astrology section? The astrology of Algol is covered in Behenian_fixed_stars, so it can be removed here. Any objections? MakeSense64 (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. mine. It is like any popular culture/cultural depictions section. I prefer to have them all at the topic, as that is what we are talking about. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. Going through all the Behenian Stars one can see that any astrological references are typically put under the 'Etymology and cultural significance' section, but without making a sub section for astrology. See Regulus, Capella_(star), Spica, Antares, Vega.

The only other star using an astrology section is Gamma_Corvi.

I think it would be better to use the same template for all these stars and just put any astrological references directly under 'Etymology and cultural significance'. What do you think? MakeSense64 (talk) 14:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Casliber. The astrological tradition associated with the star has had a significant impact upon historical and cultural associations. For that reason alone the astrological references hold merit. I have undone your changes which removed the astrological subheading and deleted the astrologically relevant external links. I think there should be a clear consensus before you delete the content because it is not to your personal liking. Zac Δ talk 20:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

It is only the unnecessary 'astrology' subheader that was removed, the information itself was retained. This brings it line with other articles about stars and is a perfectly sensible edit. Have reverted the changes. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

You may not have realised that you removed the relevant link, so I have restored that. As it stands the subheading works very well, with astrolgy forming a minor heading under 'Etymology and cultural significance'. If you are not happy can you create a case for change and get consensus before introducing it? Currently you don't have agreement from others that your proposed changes are prefered Zac Δ talk 06:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

This is first and foremost an article about astronomy, as is obvious to anybody who sees the page. Just because there is one sentence that mentions astrology of Algol in the context of cultural significance, does not mean that there have to be external links to pages about the astrology of Algol. If external astrology links are going to be added to astronomical articles about stars that have ever been used in astrology somewhere, then where is it going to stop? In the same way I removed the external link to a music band using Algol in its name, and it was a dead link anyway. The astrology related passage is properly sourced in the article, and that's enough. Have reverted the edit back. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) I have invited other editors to comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Astronomical_objects#Astrology.3F — Preceding unsigned comment added by MakeSense64 (talk • contribs) 09:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Getting agreement before making changes is the way to go. Note that in reverting again, you have removed a subheading, a link, and the code which places the astronomical co-ordinates for the star at the top of the page. Therefore I shall undo this and suggest that you get consensus before making the edit again. The onus is on you to make your case before removing approved content that has been part of the page for 6 years. With regard to the disputed link (not the dead link which has now gone) this was originally added to the page in August 2005 with the description "Discusses the history of Algol". Diff It's a well researched, informative article concerning the cultural as well as astrological significance of Algol. The author has a Cambridge sicence degree and has worked as a teacher of physics. Where is it going to stop? Where common sense dictates. You seem to have a phobia about astrological references but they are hardly taking over the page here Zac Δ talk 11:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

That's 4 reverts within one day. I have issued you with a 3RR warning. Edit warring is not the way to resolve disagreements.

Let's see what other editors have to say about adding external links to astrology websites in articles that are under the scope of astronomy. MakeSense64 (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - and note what the 3RRR policy says "Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring". I have given clear reasons for my reverts, to show that I am enforcing policy (and in the latter preserving necessary code). Zac Δ talk 13:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Your edits had nothing to do with 'enforcing overriding policies'. Giving 'your' reasons for your reverts doesn't mean you can skip the 3RR rule. So in this case it is clearly edit warring. Better to stop it. MakeSense64 (talk) 14:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the "skyscript" link, which is a mishmash of astrological nonsense and not appropriate for an encyclopedia, and the removal of the Astrology subheading, as it contains only two sentences, is not found in other articles on stars, and the text fits in just fine in that section. The sky coordinates should stay. I'm of mixed mind about the "cieloeterra" link, which discusses historical astrology, though is rather hard to read. I've removed the heading and link, but kept the coordinates. - Parejkoj (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for contributing. The sky coordinates were deleted by mistake, so of course they should be put in. As for the "cieloeterra" link, I could not make sense of it either. Perhaps it should go as well. Maybe others will weigh in. MakeSense64 (talk) 16:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the sub-heading was not essential at this stage for such a small section. Whether we believe that astrology is nonsense or inappropriate for an encyclopedia is irrelevant here. The article will be of interest to anyone who seeks to understand the historical context of this star and unless you can give a valid reason, I propose that the link should be reinstated. Robert Currey talk 16:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, the change has been made before achieving consensus on an ongoing discussion. As many, in fact more editors have argued against the change as have supported it, and by taking the content off the page whilst it is under scrutiny, that makes it difficult for other editors to review and add opinion to this. So I would ask you or someone else to revert until proper consensus has been achieved. (If consensus is achieved, then I am happy to go along with it).

With regard to a ‘mishmash of astrological nonsense’ not being appropriate for an encyclopedia; as pointed out earlier the article was well researched and soundly supported by references; so it makes ideal follow up reference for readers who want to explore the astrological associations of the star.

Although this article falls within the scope of the Wiki Astronomy project, that does not mean it should exclude coverage of information that extends beyond the purely astronomical. The page is dedicated to the star Algol, and all information that directly relates to this star and its historical and contemporary use is appropriate for inclusion – especially since Algol has a very important and consistent astrological tradition attached to it, of interest to all sorts of researchers, historians and scholars, as well as modern day astrological enthusiasts. So whilst the astrological content is relatively limited as it stands, that should not mean that it is not a valid subject for discussion within the article; and whilst the astrological reference is so limited (as it stands) then it makes sense to at least offer an external link so that those wishing to can discover more about that. Zac Δ talk 16:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

That's why I'm not sure about removing the "cieloeterra" link: it's an overview of historical astrological commentary on Algol. The "skyscript" link has many references, yes, but that doesn't mean it is a good reference for Misplaced Pages. The references in it are to a combination of ordinary news reports, conspiracy theory websites and books, and other astrological webpages and books, along with a very few historical references. One might want to include it in a Misplaced Pages page about astrology (or, perhaps, in a page about humanity's desire to create causations out of correlations), but it does not belong on this page. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, that's fair enough. I'm more concerned about the principle of astrological references being omitted than an attachment to that particular link. The conspiracy theory element is where I would be inclined to agree with you. But I think there should be an astrological reference made available which suits the need of the general reader, as well as the cieloeterra one which is valuable as a translation of one historical text but does not give an overview of astrological details. What do you think of this, which offers a collection of details without any sense of emotive contribution from the author: Algol Zac Δ talk 18:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

If Algol is astrologically as important as Zachariel wants us to believe, then why is there such brief mention about it on Behenian Stars , an astrological article where Algol is covered alongside 14 related stars? Why push these external links about astrology onto the astronomy page, when there is an astrology article about this star? Just doesn't make sense.

Astronomy articles often have an 'etymology and cultural significance' section, but it is not given undue weight, because it remains an article about astronomy in the first place. The amount of scientific information about stars and planets is now typically much larger than the historical and astrological writings about it. Pushing astrology links into astronomy articles would be no different from insisting that alchemy websites have to be in the external links on certain pages about chemistry. Just because a webpage is 'interesting' is not a reason to include it. The internet is full with 'interesting' webpages, and that's what search engines are for. MakeSense64 (talk) 20:28, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

None of the other Behenian fixed stars pages have astrology external links, so I wouldn't support any such links on this page, other than purely historical ones. These pages are about astronomy, not astrology. If you want, you can add astrology links to Stars in astrology (which could use cleaning up anyway), and link it from here. That is what is used by, e.g., Sirius and Aldebaran. - Parejkoj (talk) 20:51, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Makesense64, I do not want to persuade anyone to believe anything. Misplaced Pages is not interested in personal belief; its basis is verifiability through reliable sources, as you know. You say there is an astrological article about this star – where?

As I have said before, the focus of this article is not pure astronomy, but the star popularly known as Algol (from its Arabic name ‘the ghoul’). This article is not limited to covering only modern scientific information on the star: the question of why it has been considered ghoulish is of interest to an enquiring mind and suitable for inclusion on the page. There should be some expansion of the single astrological reference to its meaning that currently exists “Algol is considered the most unfortunate star in the sky”. Why? If an external link is considered inappropriate then I shall aim to provide some explanation of that within the main text – though I would remind you and Parejkoj that it remains the case that the changes were made without obtaining consensus. Zac Δ talk 23:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I was directed here from a comment on the WikiProject Astrology page. The Behenian fixed star page is specifically designed to talk about the use of a certain set of fixed stars for magical purposes. Since the use of Algol was not restricted to magical purposes, I see no reason to restrict the discussion of its astrological usage to that page. Just because the article primarily discusses astronomical details of algol does not mean that some information about other cultural significance that it has cannot be mentioned as well. Additionally, I don't see why we would want to remove any well-sourced references which verify the statements made in the article. --Chris Brennan (talk) 04:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Variability of Algol recognized before 1667?

The recent addition of astrologically related material on Algol contains claims which are in variance with the earlier statement that the variablility of Algol was first recognized in 1667 by Gemminiano Montanari. It is true that some have speculated that that Algol's variablility was known before the 17th century but this has never been proven conclusively.

Ancient star catalogues, such as those of Ptolemy and al-Sufi, never noted any variability and early 17th-century discussions on temporary stars (sparked by the 'new stars' of 1572, 1600 and 1604) never referred to Algol's supposed variability.

Accordingly, I think that the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs in the astrology section on Algol should be deleted as they are based on ill-based assumptions and secondary sources. AstroLynx (talk) 08:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

But actually it's not in variance to the earlier comment - which reads:

"The variability of Algol was first recorded in 1667 by Geminiano Montanari, but it is probable that this property was noticed long before this time."

Yes, but the second part of this claim is unsourced. It would be closer to the truth to write possible instead of probable.AstroLynx (talk) 10:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I would say probable is accurate, but this could only be argued according to subjective opinion, which is not the best way to get to the truth. But if this concerned you why didn't you address that matter before I made reference to it in my reply to you? I'm not responsible for that comment.Zac Δ talk 11:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, I had not noticed this (in my opinion) misleading statement until yesterday. AstroLynx (talk) 11:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

So there you go - the article already mentions the probability that Montanari's is only the first known astronomical record of that variability: this is a testament to the way that official records tended not to catalogue variability before the 16th and 17th century when astronomy changed its theoretical basis and allowed the principle of its mechanism. Before that, astronomy was inhibited by Aristotelian principles, but it is well known that observed reality often contradicted with the ideal Aristotelian principles, hence the reason why medieval astronomy developed many 'minor' problems. What could be taught and what could be published in official records were two different things.

There was a lot of discussion on the variability of stars at the start of the 17th century (due to the 'new stars' of 1572, 1600 and 1604) and nobody (many of whom were very knowledgeable in ancient astrology) mentioned anything on the variablility of Algol. AstroLynx (talk) 10:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

This is one reason why knowledge of star names, such as this star being known as 'the Winking Demon' or 'the blinking eye of the Gorgon', shows how cultural awareness extended beyond tabulated astronomical information. The report makes clear that whether the variability was astronomically recorded or not, it was observed, and meaning was extrapolated from it. As you say, although some have speculated that that Algol's variablility was known before the 17th century, this has never been proven conclusively; but neither has it been disproven conclusively. However, I take your point about the necessity to tie the passage into what has previously been stated, so I have amended the passage to make that point clearer.

Name me one pre-17th century reference identifying Algol as 'the Winking Demon' or 'the blinking eye of the Gorgon'. I have only encountered such claims in the recent literature. AstroLynx (talk) 10:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I suppose there is a time limit in which I would find it quite difficult to locate and trawl through all the world's pre-17th century references that exist on this topic, and even then my mind would be niggled with concern that I might have missed a manuscript or two. Fortunately, as a Misplaced Pages editor I don't need to do that kind of personal research. I refer to what is published in independent sources, recent or not. If you want to provide reference to a reliable published source that argues this was not the case, then the text can easily be ammended to accomodate that fact. Misplaced Pages aims to offer what is publicly known, or considered to be publicly known; it's purpose is not to publish yours or mine original research Zac Δ talk 11:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I can save you the trouble - I have seen most of the pre-17th century literature on Algol (Babylonian, Greek/Roman, Chinese, Islamic and early European) and I never encountered such claims. Note b.t.w. that Allen (cited by you as a source) was very sceptical about claims that Algol derived its name (and fearful connotations) from a supposed ancient knowledge of its variability. AstroLynx (talk) 11:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

With regard to your comment that the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs "are based on ill-based assumptions and secondary sources" - there is nothing illogical or 'ill-based' about the assumptions, and the reader can be the judge of that. The passage presents substantiated details of value to researchers; who can then follow this up further if they wish. In fact secondary sources are not at all unsuitable for Misplaced Pages and these sources fall well within the remit of what Misplaced Pages considers reliable. Remember that the Misplaced Pages policy WP:V states "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth — whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true". Sources for all relevant comments are given so that the reader can check these details and verify where they have been published and in what format. Regards, Zac Δ talk 09:38, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Revert

I have reverted the latest edits because they are not minor edits and adding such a big section should not be done without concensus. It was clear from the recent discussion that User:Parejkoj and me are not in favor of adding more astrological content to this article. We have to adhere to WP:PSCI, which makes it clear that where science and pseudoscience are presented next to each other in an article (which can be for good reason), the pseudoscience part should not be made as big as to look equal in importance. That becomes a case of undue weight WP:UNDUE. It is for that reason that there are not rarely separate articles for the astrology of a planet or star. See for example Venus, where astrology is briefly mentioned, but for a more details about the astrology of Venus you have to go here: Planets in astrology, an article that is under the scope of Astrology. Just imagine how it would be if astronomers came to add their materials in an astrology article about a planet, that would not benefit any user of WP. Please consider that it will not be helpful for astrology articles if you go to war with the astronomy community on WP. MakeSense64 (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC) In the same way there is also a separate article for the mythology of Venus: Venus_(mythology) MakeSense64 (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Further to the above: as I mentioned earlier, there is a specific page, Stars in astrology, that is linked from various individual star pages where it would make sense to put astrological material. It needs cleaning up, but the text and references that were added to Algol earlier (and that MakeSense64 reverted just now) could certainly fit in there. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Makesense64 I am reverting your undo. This is not something I often do. Your objection is that there was no consensus – yet you have deleted a link to an article that explained the cultural and historical background to Algol despite objections. When this link was deleted (without consensus), you created a gap that needed to be filled. On, 7 July 2011 @ 23:29 Zac notified this page of his intention to fill this gap by adding some background information on Algol. The comment was addressed to you and no objection was raised. So procedures were adhered to, though they may not have been convenient to you.

WP needs good content and these edits are well sourced and of a high quality. Care and research has been taken. There is no question of the content being WP:UNDUE since it was less than one third of the page and as you will see from the top of this discussion page, this article is “within the scope WikiProject Astrology”. If you feel that the thousands of years of cultural history including astrology relating to this or any other star is not of interest or irrelevant here and elsewhere, maybe you should take it up on the Project pages and a wider solution can be explored. This is not the place to try to airbrush history just because as an ex-astrologer, it is no longer to your taste.

Lastly, what is of more concern is your comment “Please consider that it will not be helpful for astrology articles if you go to war with the astronomy community on WP”. This is not only inappropriate, it is unnecessarily inflammatory and appears to be intended to incite conflict when all editors should be working towards cooperation. Your editing history suggests that you are the only person who might be ‘going to war’ by undermining Zac’s constructive attempts to edit where it is needed. Robert Currey talk 18:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

As for your first comment. Deleting an external link doesn't leave any gap, because the external links are not sources for the article. And it would make no sense to object to new material before it is brought, that would be prejudice. My not objecting to somebody stating an intention to bring more material doesn't imply that I have agreed with the materials.

As for the second part. How interesting that an anonymous editor added an "Astrology Portal" template to this Talk page earlier today, without leaving any edit summary. And somehow you are the first person to notice. But, the scope of article is not changed by adding a portal template, anybody can add templates. Here is a good explanation about scope: WP:SCOPE. Scope is typically made clear in the lede of the article. It is obvious from the lede here that the scope of this article is astronomy. The scope of an article can be changed, but that too needs concensus. So no matter how well researched the latest edit was, it falls outside the scope of this article, and throughout WP can be seen that astrology and astronomy are mostly kept to separate articles already.

As for your last comment, I can only recommend to 'focus on content' WP:FOC. If you have something to say about an editor, then that is normally done on their User Talk page. There are so many astrology articles that are seriously lacking, that I don't understand why your 'constructive' efforts have come to this Algol page, which has GA status already. Stars in astrology can use the attention much better. MakeSense64 (talk) 21:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

First, I would like to clarify that I was not involved with or aware of any anonymous edit and would not have mentioned it if I had known it was a recent edit. I believe that anonymous editing in Misplaced Pages is a licence for people to promote personal agendas.

Second, your point about WP:SCOPE actually supports the edit. The first line reads "Algol (β Per, Beta Persei), known colloquially as the Demon Star, is a bright star in the constellation Perseus." This is a clear reference to star lore and it would be wrong not to expand on this within the body copy. "Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article,.." WP:MOSINTRO

I am more interested in the astronomy of stars than the astrological history of stars, but reducing WP pages into pure astronomical data by extracting the historical, cultural, mythological and astrological background does a disservice to star gazers of all persuasions. Robert Currey talk 22:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat what I said above: there is a specific page, Stars in astrology, that is linked from various individual star pages where it would make sense to put astrological material. The information that was in the "Etymology and cultural significance" section before the recent edits was a good summary of references to Algol by a variety of cultures (though it only uses one reference, which I understand is a bit of a controversial one). - Parejkoj (talk) 00:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Parejkoj, I don't know why there is that tiny page containing little more than a list of half a dozen stars which says for its lede "Several stars have played a role in ancient and medieval astrology". The fact is that all the bright stars and all the main constellation stars have played a significant role in ancient and medieval culture, with astrological meanings that reflect something of their astronomical details in the way that this one does. Such a page as Stars in astrology, if it was developed (and I don't believe it is worth developing) could only serve a purpose as a list which then linked back to where the star details could be given in full, ie., for this star, here. If a user wants to find information about Algol, about its astronomical details, its historical significance, its associated meanings, then they will run a search for the term 'Algol' in the Misplaced Pages search box and expect to find the information on this page. I understand that you and Makesense64 object to the fact that the information is not purely astronomical, but I don't see that the content detracts from the astronomical information at all - it merely adds relevant information of a different nature, which connects to its historical relevancy. This kind of addition makes the feature on Algol more interesting for some, and more complete as a resource. Those that don't want to read the astrology information can choose not to; just as for some readers the astronomical details will be of less interest. Others clearly feel the same as I do about this; I'm sorry you don't. I think we have to lose the view that this is a page from an astronomy book; it's not, it's a Misplaced Pages feature on Algol, and it allows for segmented sections that can cover the subject from different angles Zac Δ talk 00:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

@Robertcurrey. An article about a star inevitably starts with mentioning the name (and alternative names) of the star. Just because some names are based in star lore doesn't mean that the scope of the article includes astrology. You can also have a look at this astronomy article 2060_Chiron. The astrology of Chiron has its own article here: Chiron_(astrology). This is how it is done throughout WP.

You will have a hard time convincing editors that astronomy and astrology should be merged back into one article. Astrology and astronomy seperated a few hunderd years ago, and WP reflects that fact. MakeSense64 (talk) 05:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

MakeSense64 - I would disagree here on all counts and again your example makes the point. A search under 2060_Chiron should deliver the astronomical facts on Chiron. Similarly a search under Beta Persei or GJ 9110 in WP is clearly seeking astronomical data. However, searchers for Algol will include stargazers who are interested in both the technical specifications and the star lore. So this is what should be delivered.

Following your argument through suggests that astronomy should be removed from this page and put on a separate page entitled: Beta Persei or GJ 9110. I would disagree with this and now consider that an equally split disambiguation on a search for Algol (which I had originally considered) is bureaucratic and unnecessary.

In Chiron, you picked a strange example since Chiron was a mythological figure long before a dwarf planet was named after the figure in 1977. So any search naturally goes to the mythological figure first and not the astronomy nor the astrology pages. Unlike Algol, Chiron is not a star and it does not carry a huge amount star lore going back to prehistoric times.

If your argument is “this is how it is done on Misplaced Pages”, then you should respect the convention that star lore is included with the fixed stars. This has nothing to do with “merging astrology back with astronomy”. This is an instance where the history of astronomy and astrology overlap and this history cannot and should not be rewritten or swept under the carpet due to reasons of personal taste or beliefs. Robert Currey talk 09:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There are countless examples on WP where the astronomy and astrology about a planet, star or asteroid is kept to separate articles and use a disambiguation page. If there are any articles where the astronomy of a 'body' (complete with scientific infobox) is found together with extended sections about the astrology, and mentioning astrology next to astronomy in the lede, then you are welcome to show us. MakeSense64 (talk) 10:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Doing a Catscan I found only 2 articles that belong to category "Astronomical objects" and "Astrology" at the same time, and both have to do with the constellations: Constellation and Searching_for_the_first_X-ray_source_per_constellation. This is not unlogical because the constellations is where astrology and astronomy come closest together. Still, for each constellation there is always a separate article, so you have Aries_(constellation) and Aries_(astrology), and so on for all other constellations. The astronomy articles about constellations have typically one line that refers to astrology, and for more you have to go to the astrology page. This is a most clear indication that astronomy and astrology are kept to separate articles in WP, no matter how interesting or relevant the star lore may be. So I will revert back the latest changes. To avoid edit wars, please stop reverting the edits every day, and first get concensus if you think that the scope of this page should be altered, and done differently from all other astronomy articles.

As I have mentioned on WikiProject Astrology Talk , please do not try to alter the scope of this page without notifying the members of WikiProject Astronomy WP:AST.

By the way, I noticed that several of the astrological articles on constellations have been tagged with issues for more than a year, and are not getting attention. MakeSense64 (talk) 11:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Raising the matter on the Neutral Point of View noticeboard

Makesense64, I am going to undo your deletion, to allow the content to be seen for what it is. I have just placed a notice about this situation on the Neutral Point of view noticeboard and asked for some guidance or clarification. I have said that I will undo your last deletion and ask you to leave the content in place so it can be evaluated by those with more experience than you or I. I am not sure of the protocal for these things, never having done this before, but I will place a message for you on your talk page because I have fowarded my view that you are trying to make this matter more divisive than it needs to be, for reasons that are not of benefit to members of the WP astronomy project. I hope the members of the astronomy project will read my report too, and realise that there is no intention for astrologers to "take over" astronomy pages, and you are blowing this matter out of proportion and losing touch with common sense. This is my personal opinion of course, but sincere and genuinely held, based on the familiar and consistent cycle of me trying to propose content and you then arguing for its swift deletion. Zac Δ talk 15:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Algol_-_feedback_on_whether_.28and_if_so.2C_to_what_extent.29_pseudoscience_policy_affects_the_content_of_this_star_page.

Summing up and trying to find a way forward

The recent discussion whether this article should have a broader astrology section or not has not reached concensus so far. Trying to sum up the arguments that have been brought so far:

• Proponents of the proposed changes contend that because of NPOV this article should be broadly scoped and also accept astrological material and star lore, as long as it is properly sourced.
• Opponents of the changes have brought up the point that this article is within a more narrow astronomical scope, and that an extended astrological section can be properly put in an article like Stars in astrology, which exists already and has entries for other fixed stars like Aldebaran, Procyon, Sirius and Vega.

WP:SCOPE is very relevant for the article here. Some considerations:

1) The Algol article opens by stating that this article is 'about the star', but the word 'star' does not really differentiate between astrology and astronomy. In the further lede of the Algol article there is no mention of astrology.

2) The editors who favor the proposed changes have not made efforts to connect previous editors or WP:AST to ask what is the scope of this article.

3) Many examples have been found where astrology and astronomy of a given body (planet, fixed star, asteroid..) or constellation are kept to seperate articles. For example:

• Venus_(astrology) redirects to Planets_in_astrology, where the astrology of all classic planets is covered.
• Chiron_(astrology) redirects to Asteroids_in_astrology, where the astrology of several asteroids is covered.
• Aries_(constellation) is kept separate from Aries_(astrology), and so for all other main constellations.

4) Proponents of the changes have not brought significant examples where astrology and astronomy were not kept separate.

In effect this means that in the cases of all these planets, asteroids, fixed stars and constellations, the editors who worked on those articles have always come to the concensus to put astrology and astronomy to separate articles. By doing it different here we would be going against a concensus reached by many different editors who worked on those other articles about planets, stars and constellations.

Are the editors willing to change their position and go with how it is done for astrology throughout WP? If not, why not? MakeSense64 (talk) 14:50, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with having an astrology section in an article about a star, as long as it had some historical significance, is kept in proper contest, reliably sourced, and does not either dominate the content, drift too far off topic, or presume that the reader accepts astrology as fact. I.e. it is in line with WP:PSCI, WP:RS, WP:RNPOV and WP:TOPIC. Regards, RJH (talk) 19:43, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

That seems sensible and the way I would expect the matter to be treated, Zac Δ talk 05:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

@RJH. Probably many people have no problem with seeing astrology in an article about a star. But we should not be editing from the perspective of what we personally prefer or have problems with or not. There are definitely astronomers and others who do not want to be confronted with astrology when they look up information about a fixed star. This is not really different from the situation where some people smoke, some people don't smoke but they have no problems to be in a room with smokers, and still others don't smoke and don't want to breathe smoke. For that purpose non-smoking rooms are created, because that solves the problem for everybody. In WP we use disambiguation pages. We can see that astronomy and astrology are kept to separate articles throughout WP. Why do some editors want to deviate from that approach here in the case of Algol? That questions has not been answered.

Nobody has been saying that there should be no astrology in WP, or that there should be no astrology of Algol in WP. But when certain material qualifies to be included in WP, then we have to ask in which article it belongs. WP:DISAMBIG explains all about it. Here in this case it is clear that Algol is considered a primary topic WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and if we check 'WhatLinksHere' it is indeed a vast majority links from other astronomy pages. That indicates Algol is the article about astronomy and the primary topic. Any secondary topics are then sent through disambiguation, there already is one Algol_(disambiguation).

Insisting that astrology about Algol should be put in the primary topic article , is going against WP guidelines about disambiguation.

MakeSense64 (talk) 07:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

No it is not; there has always been some astrology content on these pages; I know because I have used them for my own research in the past. And what's more, to clarify the issue I took the matter to the NPOV noticeboard to ensure that policy has been adhered to. The feedback has been that you are wrong in every respect and are acting disruptively. Why are you not taking on board the feedback you have been given there? Zac Δ talk 07:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Because one editor giving feedback does not mean that editor cannot be wrong.

Nobody has denied that there can be 'some' astrology on this page. Even in my reverts the original sentence with reference to astrology was always kept.

The NPOV noticeboard does not address the question whether extended materials about astrology should be Algol or on Stars_in_astrology. Why is the point about disambiguation not taken on board? MakeSense64 (talk) 08:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The suggestion has been considered and rejected many times from various editors, from the same point of view as Casliber's original reponse when you first proposed it -- "It is like any popular culture/cultural depictions section. I prefer to have them all at the topic, as that is what we are talking about." Zac Δ talk 08:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Your edit summary says: 'disambiguation has been rejected'. So I can only repeat my question: "Why is the point about disambiguation not taken on board?"

Let me remind you that concensus does not depend on how many editors reject a suggestion or on how many times they reject it. Citing from WP:MEAT: "Consensus in many debates and discussions should ideally not be based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors."

Rejecting a fair point about disambiguation, equals going against WP guidelines. I ask you to reconsider. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

All sides might like to take a good look at how this has been dealt with at Moon, a featured article. There are various sub-articles that relate to the Moon and culture, as well as a section in the main article. Can we head off a dispute over whether to break out a separate article on Algol in culture, resolving to keep the possibility open for the time being, and trying to improve the current section. I think it could do with shortening a bit. If possible, the references should be to scholarly works on mythology, but currently the Allen work is drawn on extensively, and is probably not fully scholarly, and there is still a reference to a current astrologer, which isn't appropriate. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to the living astrologer - that wasn't part of my text and to avoid controversy I've cut the comment it related to. It was an interesting cultural point but hardly worth hanging onto if it adds to the need for this level of discussion - hopefully now there is nothing that would be considered 'questionable' by anyone; nor any need to consider that there is a disproportionate amount of information on the page. The references to Allen's work were present before I contributed; I dare say that many WP star pages rely heavily on Allen but I added five new references, all to different reliable sources. Zac Δ talk 11:01, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

@Itsmejudith. The article about Moon is a typical example of what I have been saying. The astrology of the moon is put on a separate page and uses disambiguation Moon (astrology). If you shorten the section here it will be right back at what it was before some editors insisted on putting in an extended astrology section. See the earlier version: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Algol&oldid=438564945

The five new references that @Zac has brought are not likely to be considered reliable for an astronomy article.

It may also be useful to take a look at Talk:Stars_in_astrology. Quoting the comment of an editor there: "I suggest you move astrological meanings of stars from respective star articles here. If the star has a substantial historical section, something could be mentioned there briefly (in one sentence, for example). More detailed descriptions should be added only into this article".

Moving astrology of Algol to Stars_in_astrology has been suggested here from the very beginning. MakeSense64 (talk) 11:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

At least some of it could be covered there, but there is also an assertion here that Algol has had a cultural significance across a number of cultures and through many centuries. That can't all be summed up as "astrology", so it would make sense to keep a brief mention of that here, just as the Moon article has a brief mention of the various cultural dimensions. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I Agree. Cultural significance that can be properly sourced is worth mentioning as long as it is kept brief. Statements like "The 17th century English astrologer William Lilly considered Algol to be one of the most portentous stars, and considered any planet to be unfortunate when placed within five degrees of conjunction to it." belong to Stars_in_astrology MakeSense64 (talk) 15:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a reason why I took the trouble to raise this matter on the NPOV noticeboard, because you are trying to force an extreme, non-common-sense agenda on this page, and pretend that some policy exists that prohibits the inclusion of astrological information or requires it to be unecessarily restricted. But it doesn't. This page is about Algol, the star, the disambiguation pages are for things called Algol that are not about the star. The stars have astronomical facts and these hold astrological meaning - cultural references that have existed for centuries and are embedded in the history of society. If the astrological meaning is going to be referred to at all, then it requires explanation, and this requires reference to show how famous astrologers in history treated of the star, and why. You seem to be on a mission to get every reference to astrology censored in Misplaced Pages through the claim that presenting the information constitutes pushing a POV - but there is no POV being pushed here. This is factual information which the reader will either have an interest in, (in which case they will appreciate it) or not (in which case they will not read it). Also, the content of this page cannot be compared directly with the mass of information that can be presented on the Moon, which, as the Earth's satellite is a major body in astronomy and a major 'planet' in astrology. These star pages are relatively limited in their content and benefit from additional information that directly relates to the star but explores the topic from another angle. The only comment I would agree to is that of RJHall who wrote:

"I don't have a problem with having an astrology section in an article about a star, as long as it had some historical significance, is kept in proper context, reliably sourced, and does not either dominate the content, drift too far off topic, or presume that the reader accepts astrology as fact. I.e. it is in line with WP:PSCI, WP:RS, WP:RNPOV and WP:TOPIC.

That is a suitable solution and allows the application of common sense. Zac Δ talk 16:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no point just making a separate article if there isn't a decent amount of material to split off, and there should still be a section on cultural significance here which would point off to it and give the major points. To MakeSense64, perhaps you would like to raise this yourself at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism? That project tries to cope with pseudoscience being stuck into articles and maybe you might take their advice on board better? Dmcq (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you did not read the discussion, which is Ok because it is very long.

There is no need to make a separate article, because it exists already: Stars_in_astrology, and it can use some extra materials and quality sources. The only problem is that @Zac refuses to put the astrology of Algol there, without explaining why. MakeSense64 (talk) 16:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) The other obvious WikiProject to alert is WP: Wikiproject Astronomy. Astronomers quite rightly want astronomy articles to be firmly focused on the scientific facts. Cultural importance, if there is any, comes in a small section towards the end, with links to other articles that carry more detail. Stars in astrology seems to be a good place to carry the detail of Algol in astrology. It should of course be linked. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I notified them with a 'please see' template 4 days ago, and announced it also here. This is the link . I think User:Parejkoj came here after seeing that notice. MakeSense64 (talk) 17:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I did read the discussion and moving all the stuff to an article like stars in astrology that would be just as senseless as having all the stuff for different stars under Star. Such an article should be more about the general topic of stars in astrology not about individual stars. If the topic is very small individual stars could be included but it would still not cover the other significance of stars in culture. This has already been raised at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Astronomy#Astrology_in_star_articles by Parejkoj but they didn't get support for their idea that articles about stars should be purged of anything about astrology. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The astrology about all the planets is put together in Planets in astrology, the astrology of various asteroids is together in Asteroids in astrology, the astrology of centaurs is together in Centaurs in astrology. But somehow you are trying to tell me that putting the astrology of fixed stars in Stars in astrology would be senseless. What works for all these bodies is somehow not possible for Algol.

If somewhere down the road the article Stars in astrology would become too long and too many entries, then future editors will find a way to split it up in several articles, for example classified by constellation. That will be taken care of when the need arises. Currently Stars in astrology has only five or six entries (= plenty of space to add more).

Do you have any better reasons why the astrology of Algol cannot be in Stars in astrology? MakeSense64 (talk) 19:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you not look at those articles? You will see they give information about the topic and then have lists which give basic information about individual entries and refer to separate articles about what they refer to. You are simply wrong in what you say. They no more completely cover the entries than star does for stars in astronomy. Dmcq (talk) 19:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way are you going to ask for some support from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism which specializes in spotting pseudoscience? If anyone is going to agree with your point of view it should be them. Dmcq (talk) 19:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you look at the articles? Just try this. Go to Venus (astrology), Mars (astrology), Jupiter (astrology) and so on for the other planets. Then tell me on which page you have arrived. Scroll to the top of the page and you will see that you are on Planets in astrology, or not?

So Planets in astrology IS the complete coverage for astrology of all these planets. Any questions about that?

Now tell me why the same cannot be done with Stars in astrology?

You can notify the Rational Skepticism Project if you want, but I am not going to do it. Because it is not the number of editors for or against that matters. What matters is how many valid arguments are brought. One editor may bring up 6 valid arguments that are not refuted, and on the other side you may have 6 editors all holding on to one and the same argument. The lone editor has the concensus, and all he needs to do is continue to ask the right questions. Over time he will prevail, because fair questions cannot be avoided forever.

I like to stand alone, but what to do if somehow another editor turns up who agrees with me? MakeSense64 (talk) 21:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed off-topic paragraph

I removed the following paragraph of quotes because it is drifting off topic from a discussion of the star, and it is not needed for the remainder of the section:

Literary references to the malevolence of the Gorgon's Head can be found in sources as early as Homer's Iliad "...the Gorgon's head, a ghastly sight, deformed and dreadful, and a sight of woe", and as recently as the works of Oscar Wilde "Like a red rod of flame, stony and steeled, The Gorgon's head its leaden eyeballs rolled, And writhed its snaky horrors through the shield, And gaped aghast with bloodless lips and cold".

Regards, RJH (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

No problems with that. Thanks for your contribution. Zac Δ talk 05:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed WikiProject Astrology tag

Based on what I learned here , and as a member of WikiProject Astrology, I am removing the WikiProject Astrology tag that was put on here recently. Very few astrology articles link here, so this is outside the scope of the Astrology project. MakeSense64 (talk) 16:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

1. Homer, The Iliad (c. 800 BCE), Bk V; Samuel Butler translation online at http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html; retrieved 8 July 2011
2. Wilde, O, Charmides, 1890; online at http://en.wikisource.org/Charmides_(Wilde); retrieved 8 July 2010

• Misplaced Pages good articles
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• GA-Class Astronomy articles
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