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National Library of Ireland images on Flickr

FYI the National Library of Ireland have release a whole raft of images on Flickr under a public domain license.

• The images can be see here

Also:

• An overview of the images is here
• Announcement of it is here

--RA (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually the licencing is described as no known copyright restrictions but this licence page is not public domain licence but essentially a non-commercial one making it incompatible with wikipedia, however, that may be copyfraud. While many images are old enough to be in the public domain, some are from the Lawrence Collection, whose studio only closed in 1942 (I don't know the death date of the two Lawrence brothers) and some are from Independent Newspapers, so I suspect we should use caution and individually evaluated each image to ascertain its own age appropriate licence because Irish copyright extends for 70 years pma or a straight 70 years for anon images per commons:COM:L#Ireland. ww2censor (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Quite right: "If you are interested in high-quality reproductions, or commercial re-use of these images please contact Copying Services." Piff. --RA (talk) 21:38, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Does anybody know when W.D. Hogan died? He took some of the most iconic pictures of the War of Independence and the Civil War. Scolaire (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to add to the Cork page but this says Reproduction rights owned by National Library of Ireland how can the NLI own reproduction rights if it's 70 years old anon? Gnevin (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

As I already mentioned and I though explained well enough above it's called copyfraud; claiming copyright over material that is not under copyright. Many organisations do it but we need to determine the copyright status for ourselves. For instance File:Seaplanes at Foynes.jpg may well be ok as it it essentially a pseudo-anonymous image of a news organisation but images newer then 1941 whose photographer are identifiable are copyright for 70 years pma. Hogan was active between 1920-1935, so he would need to have died before 1941 for his images to be freely licenced now; his death need more research and I have not been able to find anything more. ww2censor (talk) 16:24, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Hogan also did professional work for The Freeman's Journal and other national papers. Is it not possible that they are the copyright holders of some of these images, irrespective of when he died? RashersTierney (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I know that NL did an awful lot of reproduction of old imagery in recent years. I'd be very wary of using terms like copyfraud without evidence. I'm pretty sure that by the very act of reproduction, they are recreating copyright in the reproductions. Fmph (talk) 21:51, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I did not say they had committed copyfraud but that claiming copyright over images that are in the public domain is copyfraud. Many institutions do so most likely out of ignorance of copyright law, which can be rather trickly. All I was suggesting is that one need to be careful and not necessarily take the free licence statement as being entirely true for all images. ww2censor (talk) 03:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I just rang the NLI and spoke to a nice guy but when ask how they owned the copyright he said they just did he came me his email, maybe someone with a better understanding of the law could help me draft an email? Gnevin (talk) 14:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Gaeilgeoir

I've created the above basic article, and would like some input. Also, could some nice person remind me how to make a category for it? Fergananim (talk) 12:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is total OR (the list part), it should be nominated for deletion. Snappy (talk) 17:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

(Once again) What is the real name of Ireland? (The old tunes are the best tunes.)

Famously, Shakespeare's Irish character in "Henry V", Captain MacMorris, asked "What ish my nation?" I sometimes feel the same way.

It may or may not help conversations about the name of Ireland to have as a resource, here, for the record, my attempt last year to have the Irish government pronounce on the matter. I e-mailed the Protocol Section of the Department of the Taoiseach:

From: Odea
Subject: 1937 Constitution, or 1948 Act?
To: protocol@taoiseach.gov.ie
Date: Thursday, 13 May, 2010, 10:38

Dear Sir or Madam,

Although I am Irish I find myself suddenly confused about the formal name of the country in English.

Heretofore, I have argued, per Article 4 of the 1937 Constitution, that "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." I have always maintained that the "Republic of Ireland" was simply a name for the football team invented by the world football authority, FIFA, to distinguish us from Northern Ireland.

However, today I read Article 2 of The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 which says, "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

I see no evidence that the Constitution was amended to reflect the name promulgated by the 1948 Act. So what is the official name of the country, in English: Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland? One may point to the newer 1948 Act, but does not the Constitution stand above the law, as final arbiter? There has been no referendum to change the definitive constitutional name.

If the 1948 statement is to have Constitutional force, does not Article 4 of the Constitution require amendment? This situation seems to me to be a kind of legal deadlock arising from the failure to amend the Constitution in line with the

Act. What are your thoughts?

I received the following reply:

From: Protocol@taoiseach.gov.ie
Subject: Re: 1937 Constitution, or 1948 Act?
To: "Odea"
Date: Thursday, 3 June, 2010, 7:31

Dear Odea

I refer to your email below and apologise for the delay in responding to you.

Article 4 of the Constitution provides "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 provides "It is hereby declared that the description of the state shall be the Republic of Ireland". The official name of the State is Ireland or Éire but the State may be described as the Republic of Ireland. The 1948 Act does not change the official name of the State. Such a chance would not be possible without an amendment to the Constitution.

I hope this information is of assistance to you.

This is interesting and perhaps a little bit subtle, but I interpret it to mean that the name of the country is Ireland but that it may be described as the Republic of Ireland (my emphasis). The Protocol Section also stated clearly, "The 1948 Act does not change the official name of the State." The Constitution is definitive while the 1948 Act is merely descriptive. So, "the Republic of Ireland" has an optional and non-binding quality to it, but the official name is obligatory, and it is "Ireland", as Article 4 of the Constitution insists quite clearly. In conclusion, I quote the Department of the Taoiseach: "I hope this information is of assistance to you." — O'Dea (talk) 01:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that that email tells us anything that we didn't know before, or that hasn't been stated endlessly in the "naming dispute". I have some issues with the interpretation, though. "A little bit subtle"? Hardly! It's as straightforward as can be. "The official name is obligatory"? What is the penalty for speaking of the country and failing to use the name "Ireland" - a fine or a prison sentence? Is the penalty the same for using the name "Ireland" when speaking in a language other than English? The 1948 Act is not "descriptive", it merely contains the word "description". Nor does it have "an optional and non-binding quality to it": it's a statute like any other. And even if "Republic of Ireland" has an "optional quality" to it, and Misplaced Pages "opts" to use it, so what? Scolaire (talk) 19:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the big "so what" is the underlying "why". For me, the arguments to use the official British legal name don't stack up (as per UK 1949 Ireland act). What's with that? --HighKing (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

HighKing, what point are you making? It's not clear to me. What is the official British legal name, and what does it matter, anyway, since British legislation cannot define the name of another nation? I am sure Britain has no interest in naming Ireland; they have enough to worry about. — O'Dea (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

The point I'm making is that under UK legislation, the official name of the state is "Republic of Ireland". You say British legislation cannot define the name of another nation? Well go and read the 1949 act - they did. So for me, while I'm happy to acknowledge and accept that some sort of disambiguation is required between the island and the state, It's grossly wrong that we're using the official British name of the state as the article title (especially given the history of the "naming" disagreements between the two states for the past 90 years), thereby propagating on Misplaced Pages the nonsense that "Republic of Ireland" is fine as a name, and not just for disambiguation. In fact, I'd be happy to have the article on the state at *any* other title (within reason), and continue to use "Republic of Ireland" to dab in articles. --HighKing (talk) 11:40, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

firstly nothing new has been revealed to us with the response to odea and secondly what use does it serve us? We already know what the constitution says and emails cant be used as sources as its original research instigated by an editor. Mabuska 16:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I realise perfectly well that my contribution is original research, nevertheless, it is useful as a government department statement on the matter, to emphasize the reality of the name of the country, which has been disputed, almost literally, ad nauseam (I find the wrangling nauseating, anyway). Where there is one state name in the constitution and another in a government Act, an official statement of resolution can bring clarity to a potentially confusing reality. If anyone wants to confirm for himself the State position on the matter, he is free to e-mail the government as I did. The e-mail address is above. — O'Dea (talk) 18:37, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

there is one state name in the constitution and another in a government Act - no. This is wrong. --HighKing (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Does the Republic of Ireland article not made it clear anyways in the opening sentence? Though obviously certain editors campaigned hard to ensure officially was omitted. Mabuska 11:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

No, the opening sentence is a model of unnecessary confusion that muddies rather than clarifies things for the uninitiated (think of the interested reader in Bolivia). In an article entitled "Republic of Ireland", the initial bold headword is actually "Ireland", not "Republic of Ireland" (contradiction there), and the sentence continues, "described as the Republic of Ireland" which suggests that the latter is the official name. It is a pig's mickey of an introduction. It is explained in the following section called Name, but the opening sentence is as twisted as the aforementioned organ. — O'Dea (talk) 20:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree. --HighKing (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

"It is a pig's mickey of an introduction." It's a pigs micky of a situation further confused by changes in statute and constitutional law, as well as common practice both at home and abroad, over time. I rewrote the Name section to clear thing sup but didn't dare touch the introduction. I thought it was too much of a hot potato. Part of the chilling effect this issue has fostered.

I am happy that renewed discussion here and on WP:IECOLL have been cordial and focused on the project. Rather than re-hashing the debate over whether to rename the Ireland and Republic of Ireland articles, maybe we should agree to keep that issue to one side and put our energies into improving the current situation and the (ill) feelings between editors over this issue? --RA (talk) 13:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I adjusted the explanation of the name for clarity by changing this text,

The term Republic of Ireland (Poblacht na hÉireann) is derived under Irish law from the Republic of Ireland Act 1948...

to this,

The term Republic of Ireland (Poblacht na hÉireann) is a description of the state but not its official name, and is derived under Irish law from the Republic of Ireland Act 1948...

I left the opening sentence alone for now because modifying that would be like igniting a keg of gunpowder. — O'Dea (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Always a nation

With thanks to the above redoubtable Odea and the good Captain MacMorris (surely originally a Prendergast?), I draw attention to the fact that, though we may have been without a soverign, independent state or country for much of our existence, we (the Irish people) have always been a nation:

• Broadly speaking a nation may refer to a community of people who share a common territory and government; and who often share a common language, race, descent, and/or history. It can also refer to the inhabitants of a sovereign state irrespective of their ethnic make-up. In worldwide diplomacy, nation can refer to a country or sovereign state.

Which rather puts paid to the Wolfe Tones confused notion that we are (will be?) a nation once again ... But I digress. Fergananim (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:SOAPBOX spring to mind here. Mabuska 16:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

A nation? says Bloom. A nation is the same people living in the same place. — from Ulysses, James Joyce. — O'Dea (talk) 18:53, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

A Prendergast, Fergananim? — O'Dea (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Surely MacMorris could mean son of any Morris, not necessarily Maurice de Prendergast? Opera hat (talk) 18:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Usher - my own research indicates that the {Mac}Morris family of Connaught, and the FitzGeralds of Mayo, are indeed descendants of that most chivilric of knights, Maurice de Prendergast. I cannot answer for Morris's elsewhere in Ireland. Fergananim (talk) 00:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The last time I spoke to the Mayo-Prendergast branch of my family was at a funeral where the talk (following my inquiry) was about the Apollo astronaut they're related to. "What's he like?" I wanted to know. A sound man, by all accounts. They have never talked about Mossy Prendergast in my hearing, however. — O'Dea (talk) 17:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Lads, this is not a chat room. Can you swap email addresses or something? Scolaire (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox bot issues

This edit tells the story of the editing trail taken by SelketBot as it has suddenly moved to replace all instances of "Infobox place Ireland". As I was doing a thorough audit of each Irish settlement article prior to last night, the editor Plasticspork spotted this and left me the note: "Unfortunately, the bot made many many errors, since it was not supervised. I have been doing my best to check them all for obvious errors (see this list), but since you were doing such a great job, I thought I would see if you were interested in checking them as well."

The most obvious issue left which requires attention is that the bot indiscriminately calls each place "Town" without regard to what it actually is. Plasticspork is writing a follow-behind bot to repair some of the other damages, but the settlement type needs to be checked manually. Will members of this project please keep an eye on these edits made by SelketBot? Thanks – Sswonk (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Confused...

Please see Saoirse - a disambiguation page. Clicking on the talk page link brings you to Talk:Saoirse Irish Freedom - which is the talk page for an article on the newspaper. To correct this, do I just delete the redirect? Or does something need to be moved? Bastun 20:38, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the talk page to use the {DisambigProj} template. Snappy (talk) 20:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Bastun 22:26, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

'To do' section of IWNB

The page Misplaced Pages:Irish Wikipedians' notice board/to do, which updates the "to do" section of IWNB, has only been updated very infrequently. Further, if any work has been done on any of these, they have not been struck through, so there is no way of knowing if they are still to do or not. Some articles, e.g. DS&ER, Irish railway clearing house, Patrick Galvin "(author of the Raggy Boy books recently filmed)", Wanderly Wagon, East Point Business Park, Leaving Certificate and The Late Late Show "- dePOVing needed", have been on the list since September 2004, the month it was created! Seven items have been added in the last twelve months, viz.:

• GoCar
• GoCar (not a typo, it's there twice)
• Gaeltacht quarter - this is a redirect to Neo-Gaeltacht
• Illicit drug use in Ireland
• Motorway service areas of Ireland
• Four Star Pizza
• John Rocha (fashion designer)

The thing is, if you look at these seven on their own, they don't really look like the seven most pressing Ireland-related issues on Misplaced Pages, do they? But after twelve months, any or all of the others might have reached FA by now for all we know. Though I suspect they haven't, because I suspect nobody even looks at the list any more. I recommend that the entire list should be purged and, if somebody is willing to put in the time, a more realistic to-do list be substituted, to be updated if and when articles are tackled. Scolaire (talk) 12:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Two weeks and no objections. I have purged the list. Scolaire (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

MV Saoirse

The article on the MV Saoirse is attracting quite some non-Irish interest, for a small article on a small Irish ship. Could possibly do with adding to some watchlists. Bastun 13:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

RfC notification

A new discussion on wording changes to the current guideline to clarify the use of diacritics for subjects whose native names contain them has been initiated. It can be found at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC Ohconfucius 08:38, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

New county intros.

I have a couple of points, the first I am raising because I have a genuine concern regarding the wording. The second is a modified repost of a comment I left at the talkpage of User:Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs) but which I feel requires attention:
1) "Kildare County Council is the local authority administrative area that now covers the county." Since when do boards, organisations, etc. now constitute geographic areas? It is a council after all?
2) If these county articles are referring to the former administrative areas then a lot of information in, and related to, the counties needs to be changed.

i) The Co. Co. crests can no longer be permitted and so must be removed as they now no longer refer to the same administrative unit (apart from the fact that the crests, for the most part, lack the appropriate image tags - e.g. the Meath Co. Co. crest is a copyrighted image but it has been given the wrong licence tags in Commons, but that's a separate issue).

ii) Secondly, the websites need to be removed as they refer to the Co. Co. area and not the former administrative county.

iii) Also, each of the county towns need to be changed as those towns are no longer county towns of Co. Meath, Co. Longford, etc. as the counties don't exist (a town can not be a county town of a non-existent county - perhaps something along the lines of "Navan is the county town of Meath County Council and the former county town of County Meath" - they are, after all, two completely separate things.

iv) The information regarding population and area (km/mi) is not relevant to these county articles any more, as they now refer to historical entities - and those entities have never had the same area throughout their entire existence. Perhaps mention the area and population, but a specific point in time needs to be selected for this.

v) These county articles also mention "government type" and suggest they are governed by "county councils". However the lead states these "counties" no longer exist - you can not have a government type for something that does not exist. This must also go.

3) On a further point, may I ask as to why only those counties in the Republic of Ireland have had the lead changed while those counties in Northern Ireland have not, considering the areas in Northern Ireland have been entirely replaced with completely different boundaries (except Fermanagh which has only had minor alterations) while those of the Republic have only had a status change (except a minority which have been subdivided, and a further minority with minor boundary changes)?  _Cowag 21:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I have given up following this rigamorle about the counties. I notice Laurel Lodged has made another set of large-scale changes across articles relating to this topic. What is the "Option 3" that these changes relate to? Where did the apparent discussion the preceeded these changes take place?

For my 2¢, I believe we should have three classes of articles:

1. 32 articles dealing with the traditional counties of Ireland (e.g. County Mayo) in a geographic and cultural sense
2. Articles dealing with the local authorities in the Republic of Ireland (e.g. Mayo County Council), including information about the areas under their jurisdiction as relevant
3. Articles dealing with the local authorities in Northern Ireland (e.g. Down District Council), including information about the areas under their jurisdiction as relevant

In many cases these will cover the same geographic area, however in other cases they will not (e.g. Cork city is in County Cork in a geographic and cultural sense but is not in the area administered by Cork County Council). In this case, I believe material relating to the local government should be removed from the "geographical/cultural" article to the "local authority" article.

With regards to arms, there is an argument that a geographic area such as County Mayo cannot bear arms, only an body such as Mayo County Council can. However, there is a strong tradition in Ireland of geographic areas having arms attributed to them e.g. the provinces. --RA (talk) 23:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the arms - the vast majority of the county councils had arms or logos redesigned. Take Meath for example. The previous arms for the traditional county was the same as the GAA arms - the high king seated on the Royal Tara throne. The current logo/crest/arms is a copyrighted image, yet here on wiki not only do we not have the proper licence and attribution given to it, but with the county article's downgrading it is now used on a page that it no longer belongs to. Other images that I have gone through have fair use rationales applied but no licence, or licences but no fair use rationales, and in some cases nothing whatsoever!  _Cowag 05:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about "the vast majority" (certainly a lot did) - but definately your substantive point about fair-use rationale for in-copyright images is correct and is a very important thing for us to consider. --RA (talk) 07:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the crests/logos/arms, the following counties need to have them removed: Co. Cavan (incorrect arms used - wrong ratio), Co. Clare (©1986 Clare Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Galway (arms are © Galway Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Galway city), Co. Kerry (©1984 Kerry Co. Co., refers to Council, not County), Co. Kildare (arms refer to council, not county), Co. Kilkenny (arms refer to the council, not the county and refer to the current administrative division while the article refers to the entire county including Kilkenny city), Co. Laois (©1998 Laois Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Leitrim (©1980 - refers to council, not county), Co. Limerick (© Limerick Co. Co. - refers to Council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Limerick City), Co. Longford (© Longford Co. Co. - refers to council, not county), Co. Meath (© Meath Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Monaghan (©1984 Monaghan Co. Co. - refers to council, not county), Co. Offaly (©1983 Offaly Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Sligo (refers to council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county - current arms of council adopted 1980, prior to that the arms of the Borough of Sligo were used), Co. Waterford (©1997 Waterford Co. Co. - refers to council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Waterford City - arms adopted 1997 prior to which the arms of the city were used), Co. Westmeath (©1969 - refers to council, not county). These are the problems regarding imagery used on the "traditional" counties as WP now stands. I have not gone into the details of the other divisions. However, having just read over some of the other divisions I did notice that the divisions in Dublin (Fingal, South Dublin, DLR) all begin with "X is an administrative county in the Republic of Ireland" while the traditional counties begin with "X is a former administrative county in the Republic of Ireland". There is a little bit of a problem here. I understand the whole discussion that was conducted previously, but the problem lies with the wording - we are now treating the "geographic" area of the Dublin-based areas as administrative divisions while we give the same distinction to elected representatives and their organizations outside of Dublin. (At least the last time I checked you can definitely say "Balbriggan is a town in Fingal", but you certainly would not say that "Slane is a town in Meath County Council" which is what the current wording now requires us to do). _Cowag 09:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the previous discussion - that can be found here.  _Cowag 14:56, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't see anything in either the discussion MacTire linked to or any previous discussions that would justify the addition of that sentence to the lead of County Kildare, or any of the fiddling round that's being done on other articles. Those leads have been stable over time, and any edits that don't have an obvious consensus ought to be immediately reverted, pending proper discussion. Scolaire (talk) 16:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with RA's proposal above. We need three sets of articles each dealing with one entity:

• one set of 32 articles dealing solely with the traditional 32 counties
• one set dealing solely with the county councils and city councils (ROI)
• one set dealing solely with the district councils (NI).

~Asarlaí 17:23, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --HighKing (talk) 18:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Loath as I am to say it, but I think we need a proper vote on the issue of the wording. The last "consensus" was so obfuscated by bickering over the RoI/Ireland piping issue that I feel many people (including myself) at the time simply switched off. We need to keep this as much in topic as possible. The concept of piping should be left as agreed upon in the IMOS. I agree with RA's proposal above but I fail to see how we can continue to state that an elected body is somehow a geographic entity (it would be akin to suggesting that Dáil Éireann is a geographic entity - after all, both are elected and both are responsible for the administration of their respective territories). The sentence "X County Council is the local authority administrative area..." just does not make sense. X County Council may be the local administrative authority, but it can not be the area too - that's not what the word council means in any stretch of the imagination (or at least the last time I checked the Meath County Manager didn't have any rivers running through him or mountains protruding from him)!  _Cowag 20:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the key is to get our heads out of a space where we fret over the existential consequences of the 2001 Local Government Act. While under the 2001 act, Cork city ceased to be the largest settlement in the county of Cork, this is verifiably not the case. The apparent contradiction between the 2001 Act and other reliable sources can only be resolved if we accept that there is such a thing as a "county" according to the 2001 act and another things that is a "county" according other verifiable sources.

Thus, I would suggest wordings like the following:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the 32 traditional counties of Ireland and one of the 26 traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

The article, I would suggest, should continue with geographical / cultural content about County Cork (the one that contains Cork city), whereas material to do with the local authority should be given in Cork County Council. --RA (talk) 21:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The current wording of the county intros is seriously flawed and needs to be changed. Also, in what sense were the counties of Ireland abolished? I was looking at the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2009 recently and the Dáil Éireann constituencies are defined mostly in terms of counties:

"Mayo - The county of Mayo." The Act also uses electoral divisions in former Rural districts,

"Louth - The county of Louth; and, in the county of Meath, the electoral divisions of: Julianstown, St. Mary’s (part), in the former Rural District of Meath." Rural Districts were abolished in 1925, so hence the user of former in the Act but the Act does not refer to counties as former or former administrative counties, simply county of X.

Looking at the Local Government Act 2001:

Section 2 states: “administrative area” means an area which continues to stand established under section 10 for the purposes of local government and which is—

(a) a county in the case of a county council,

(b) a city in the case of a city council,

(c) a town in the case of a town council;.

In section 10.2: "The State continues to stand divided into local government areas to be known as counties and cities which are the areas set out in Parts 1 and 2, respectively, of Schedule 5." (Schedule 5 lists the 34 current Counties and Cities).

In section 11.2:

"(2) For each county or city set out in Schedule 5 there continues to stand established under this section a body for the purposes of local government and each such body is a local authority and each such county or city is its administrative area."

"(3) The local authorities referred to in subsection (2) are the primary units of local government and shall be known as—

(a) in the case of a county set out in Part 1 of Schedule 5, the name of such county followed by the words “County Council”, and

(b) in the case of a city set out in Part 2 of Schedule 5, the name of such city followed by the words “City Council”."

"(6) For the purposes of functions conferred on it by or under this or any other enactment—

(a) county council has jurisdiction throughout its administrative area except for such functions as are by law vested in any town council, the administrative area of which is situated in the county concerned, but without prejudice to section 70."

I'm not a legal person and correct me if I'm wrong but I think the acts says that the State is divided into local government areas (counties & cities), and for counties, these counties are the administrative area of the relevant County Council. So they still appear to exist in some legal sense. Snappy (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

That was indeed my entire point Snappy. The idea that the assembling body of people was somehow a geographic entity just seemed ridiculous to me. Regarding the wording in what you have placed here, I think it was section 11.2 (3) that caused the changing in the wording of the county articles. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, it states that "the local authorities...are the primary units of local government and shall be known as...the name of such county followed by the words "County Council"..." This, to me, suggests the name by which the administrative body should be known - not the administrative area. The local authorities here refers to the group of elected representatives, their offices and departments, their responsibilities, rights and duties, etc., but not the actual geography. Geography in the case of county/city councils is incidental and is simply a territorial delimiter placed on the geographic extent of those activities necessary for the fulfilment of the roles as outlined in the previous sentence. _Cowag 22:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Coincidentally, today's featured article is about Somerset, a county in England. Worth a read. Snappy (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Geographic is where a county is. Geographic is not what a county is. What is the function of a county? Is it to be a set of co-ordinates on a map? Webster's dictionary defines it as "one of the territorial divisions of England and Wales and formerly also of Scotland and Northern Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judicial, and political purposes". So it's clear that county is a twin: territory and administration. You can't have one without the other. While the above interpretation of 11.2(3) is correct, the corollary drawn from it is incorrect. Administration does not occur in the abstract; it occurs in a given geographic area. One cannot say that Mayo CoCo administers without saying where or what territory it administers. It administers the area formerly known as the "administrative county of Mayo". That entity no longer exists. Only Mayo CoCo exists. Prior to the "administrative county of Mayo" you had the County of Mayo and prior to that again you had tribal 'tuatha' and petty kingdoms. The territory always existed; only for a limited time was it the county of Mayo. The territory is now that part of Ireland that is under the jurisdiction of Mayo CoCo. It has no twilight zone existance apart from the CoCo. This is not so much an existential question as a definitional one. To try to separate the territory from the function of judicial and political administration is deny the very definition of "county". Absent judicial and political administration and what are you left with - a set of co-ordinates. Who would want to read about 53|54|N|9|15|W ? That's what Google maps is for. You don't need an encyclopedia for that. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

And yet, I can "discover" County Tipperary despite there being no Tipperary County Council for over a century. Or is it an example of more cute hoorism that the Government will direct us to Citizens Information Centers in "County Dublin", knowing full well that there is no such place?

Laurel, you think about this matter both too much and too little. --RA (talk) 23:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I think WP:COMMON has some applicability here too. And the fact that our national postal service still asks you to search for your local office by county, or that Government websites still list their offices by county shows that there is a separation between the administrative areas, and the common geographical regions. --HighKing (talk) 00:26, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I think Laurel would have us believe that human beings are inhabited by other human beings, and that rivers, mountains, coastlines, etc. are now all features to be discovered in the human body. I'm afraid Laurel you are wrong. Read Section 2(a) " “administrative area” means an area which continues to stand established under section 10 for the purposes of local government and which is...a county in the case of a county council." Do you see that? " “administrative area” means an area which is...a county in the case of a county council". Apart from anything else, not one single piece of evidence has been put forward which suggests the Irish government has changed the meaning of the word "council" in the English language. A "council" is a body of people - it is NOT the territory over which they govern. That is analogous to saying that "Dublin is in the Oireachtas" simply because the Oireachtas governs Ireland and Dublin is in Ireland. Laurel states that we are trying to "deny the very definition of "county"". I would counter by saying he is denying the very definition of "council". Even in Irish the county councils themselves do not recognise his definition. Take Meath Co. Co. - In Irish the co. co. is rendered as "Comhairle Chontae na Mí" or in English the "Council of County Meath". This exact phrasing emphasises that county and council are two separate but related things. If it were to be a single non-divisible entity the Irish would be "Comhairle Contae na Mí", but it's not! This means, according to Laurel, that not only are there no geographic entities in Ireland any more, but that even the political divisions themselves don't recognise their own existence!!!  _Cowag 06:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, by the same definition, there are no cities in Ireland - there are simply City Councils. Therefore Dublin is not a city - it's a City Council. So Kiltimagh is in Mayo County Council. Bective is in Meath County Council. Swords is in Fingal County Council and Cabra is in Dublin City Council. Trim, Navan, Ballina, Naas, etc. no longer exist and are instead Trim Town Council, Navan Town Council, Ballina Town Council, Naas Town Council!  _Cowag 06:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Further to the topic at hand. Meath Co. Co. describes the area as a "county" and not a "county council" in its "County Development Plan 2007-2013" (note: if the county no longer existed then already that is wrong and should read "County Council Development Plan"). In its 2013-2019 County Development Plan the Council "... people to think about County Meath...". In the council's own tourism literature it describes "County Meath Ireland's Heritage Capital". The Council also has information related to "Affordable Homes for sale across County Meath". I could go on. And that is only from Meath County Council's own website, never mind the websites of other County Councils or any other literature from said organisations. Laurel stated "Geographic is where a county is. Geographic is not what a county is. What is the function of a county?" Well function is not what a county is either. According to the Macmillan dictionary, a county is "a region that has its own local government in some countries such as the UK and US". In the case of Ireland this means a region that has its own local government (read: County Council). According to Collins, a county is "any of the administrative or geographic subdivisions of certain states, esp. any of the major units into which England and Wales are or have been divided for purposes of local government". As Laurel correctly stated, Merriam Webster gives "one of the territorial divisions of England and Wales and formerly also of Scotland and Northern Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judicial, and political purposes". All emphasis in those definitions is my own, but what can be observed from that is that a county is a territorial, or geographic, unit established for the purposes of administration and governance. In order to fulfil these responsibilities a County Council is established (Cambridge gives "an elected group of people which forms the government of a county" as the definition of County Council). For County, Cambridge gives "a political division of the UK or Ireland, forming the largest unit of local government, or the largest political division of a state in the US" and gives the following sentences as an example of usage: "A county usually consists of several towns and the rural areas which surround them." "Rutland used to be the smallest county in England, but in 1974 it became part of Leicestershire." In other words, a county is indeed established for governance, but then so is a country. If you want to describe Co. Meath as Meath County Council, then logic follows that you can describe Ireland (the state) as An tOireachtas, the Isle of Man may now be described as Tynwald. Dublin is no longer Dublin - it's Dublin City Council. Saint Petersburg is no longer Saint Petersburg, it's the "Legislative Assembly of Saint Petersburg". After all, a council is an assembly!! _Cowag 11:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

In 1975, in which county would you have found the town of Oakham - Rutland or Leicestershire? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:33, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You would have found it in Leicestershire, that British county governed by Leicestershire County Council. You would not have found it in Leicestershire County Council. What you are saying Laurel makes no sense. Answer me this - what is the longest river in Meath County Council - answer: a stupid question because you can not have a geographic feature in a social construct. You may also want to take a look at these: CSO 2011
In its background report the CSO mentions that "...the country is divided into 29 Counties and five Cities. In Dublin, four areas are identified separately, i.e. Dublin City and the three Administrative Counties of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin. Outside Dublin there are 26 administrative counties (North Tipperary and South Tipperary are separate counties for administrative purposes) and four Cities, i.e. Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway" (report here)
Welfare.ie (2011) also mentions administrative counties as well as services in County Meath, County Laois, etc.
Environ.ie (2008), the Department responsible for local government, even mentions County Donegal, and not Donegal County Council when referring to a location within the county, as it does with County Meath (2011), and reserves usage of X Co. Co. for the organisation responsible for the administration of County X. It NEVER uses X Co. Co. to refer to the history, culture, sporting traditions, people, demographics, sociology or geography of a county.  _Cowag 11:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. In 1975, the town of Oakham was in the county of Leicestershire. You are also incorrect. It was still in the traditional county of Rutland. It was in both, when you use different definitions. If the question is, "In which county for the current purposes of local government is Oakham located?", then the answer is Leicestershire. If the question is, "In which former county used for the purposes of local government prior to 1974 was Oakham located?", then the answer is Rutland. The same is true for Clonmel. If the question is, "In which county for the current purposes of local government is Clonmel located?", then the answer is South Tipperary. If the question is, "In which former county used for the purposes of local government prior to 1838 was Clonmel located?", then the answer is Tipperary. During each period, the county (whether Rutland or Leicestershire) was a county. During each period, the county (whether Tipperary or South Tipperary) was a county. The problem is to align the county to the correct period. That's why it's correct to speak of Tipperary in the past tense (..."is a former administrative county of Ireland.) and why it is correct to speak of South Tipperary in the present tense (..."is an administrative county in Ireland"). I have never said that Mayo CoCo is the county; I would say that Mayo CoCo has jurisdiction over the area formerly known as the judicial county of Mayo less Ballaghaderreen and Edmondstown EDs, plus part of the judicial county of Galway (Ballinchala, Owenbrin EDs) plus part of the judicial county of Sligo (Ardnaree North, Ardnaree South Rural, Ardnaree South Urban EDs).Is that your understanding of Mayo? Or would you wish to leave those electoral districts of Sligo in Sligo and those electoral districts of Galway in Galway? Going back to the Oakham analogy, where, today, in your opinion, is Ballinchala? Is it in Mayo or Galway? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

1) How does a council not constitute a geographical area? If they don't they how can they be represented on maps depicting boundaries etc.? 2) The county crests and county towns are still valid as they are still the crests and county towns of those former counties. The websites however i agree with. The govenrment type i agree with. 3) Northern Ireland is in a different country to the Republic. It doesn't suffer from the same problem as the Republic of Ireland, though NI county articles should state that for all intents and purposes they are former adminsitrative units.

Overall the ledes before Sarah777 instigated a new discussion to remove RoI unpiped were agreed to as a way of trying to solve the issue of former and modern administrative countries. But everything is trial and error and nothing is ever perfect.

On RA's proposal:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the 32 traditional counties of Ireland and one of the 26 traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

I prefer words above numbers, but otherwise go for it if you can get consensus for having RoI unpiped. Mabuska 21:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Laurel - Ballinchala is situated in County Mayo.(Mayo Library, MyHome.ie, Griffiths Valuation, National Archives of Ireland, Focal.ie). You have dodged pretty much every single point and question I have raised. I have provided references which state that counties such as Meath, Mayo, Monaghan, etc. are administrative counties. Can you please provide a reference which states otherwise? Until you answer the points I raised rather than simply argue with random "examples" and until you provide such a reference I will cease to discuss with you any further.

@ Mabuska - regarding 1) A council is not a geographic area. It administers a geographic area. It is the geographic area which is represented on maps, not the council itself. A council is a body of elected and unelected officials, representatives, employees, their responsibilities etc. and is entirely a social construct. A county is a geographic area over which responsibility for administration was formerly held by a count and now held, for the most part, by councils or other such bodies. 2) For the most part, county crests in the RoI were granted to the council and not the county. In these cases we can not use the crests to depict anything other than the county council.

As a final note, with the current wording we are stating that there are more types of administrative unit in Ireland than actually exists. For example, we are stating that "South Tipperary...is an administrative county in Ireland... South Tipperary County Council oversees the county as an independent local government area". Other counties don't get this treatment - for these counties it is stated that the administrative county does not exist and that the County Council is the local government area. There is a serious contradiction here considering Meath Co. Co. is legally equal to STipp Co. Co. I understand boundaries change, but that does not mean, for example, that HM Government is any less or more important than the government of San Marino - SM's boundaries have not changed since inception, whereas the UK's boundaries have. In other words, we are stating that, for administrative purposes, there are 25 county councils (Meath Co. Co., Mayo Co. Co., etc.), 5 administrative counties (South Tipperary, North Tipperary, Fingal, South Dublin, DLR) and 5 cities (Dublin, Waterford, Limerick, Cork, Galway). In reality however there are 30 county councils administering 30 administrative counties and 5 city councils administering 5 cities.  _Cowag 06:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There are 30 administrative counties in Ireland? I thought it was your position that there were 32 in Ireland and just 26 in the Republic? Which is it? Anyway, your maths is a bit off - it's 24 + 2 + 3 = 29 (not 30). If you're attempting to say that there are 29 local government bodies in Ireland with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the county), then I would agree. I also agree that there are 5 local government bodies in Ireland called city councils with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the city). Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages has decreed that only 24 of these areas is entitled to call themselves a county in the article title. The remaining 2 + 3 must get by without the prefix of "County" in their article name. While entities that have been abolished (e.g. County Dublin) are allowed to retain the prefix, other entities (e.g. Fingal) on the same legal standing as the other 24, are not allowed to use the prefix. Does this seem right or just to you? Where's the consistency? If the territory of Meath is a county in virtue of the Local Government Act and the territory of Fingal is also a county by the same act, then why is Meath allowed the prefix while Fingal is not? To deny Fingal the prefix is to deny that it is a county. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Addition is not my strong point! I have throughout the discussion adhered to the position that there are 32 traditional counties in Ireland (26 in RoI) and 29 administrative counties in RoI which are also supplemented with 5 cities. You said "If you're attempting to say that there are 29 local government bodies in Ireland with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the county), then I would agree. I also agree that there are 5 local government bodies in Ireland called city councils with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the city)." - well that is exactly what I was saying. But naming is a separate issue. Whether or not Fingal is known as Fingal, Co. Fingal, or Fingal Co. is a naming issue that is governed by WP:COMMONNAME. As far as I know, no one refers to it as County Fingal. It is simply Fingal. But that is common naming and in no way reflects the legal status of the county. Sure we have an article here called Republic of Ireland despite that entity's official name of Ireland, and France despite that entity's official name in English as the "French Republic". To deny Fingal the prefix is not, in my opinion, to deny that it is a county. Cumbria gets by quite well without a prefix, as does Sussex. But that issue is a separate, in my view, matter. _Cowag 21:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Laurel, Misplaced Pages is not the place for reasoning like the above. Doing so, we would very quickly say that 27 counties left the United Kingdom in 1922 and that there is no longer any such place as Country Down, County Fermanagh, etc.

Reliable sources say otherwise. Whether Dublin County Council — or Tipperary Country Council, or Armagh County Council, or any other such council — was abolished or not, reliable sources say that County Dublin, County Tipperary, County Armagh, etc. still exist as places — and that they are significant topics for Ireland. In fact, I would suggest that the primary significance of the counties of Ireland is today as places, regardless of their origins or original purpose, or the current arrangement of local government in Ireland, north and south.

You've had a fair run at this but your view is a fringe one at best (more likely, an an original view). The points you raise — about the origins and development of local government over time and that the 26/6 traditional "counties" of Ireland are no longer congruent with local government in Ireland — are important. They need to to be stated. But they need to be stated with due weight to reliable sources. --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Straw poll

There seems to be fairly broad support for the suggestion above on how to re-organsise county-related articles: That proposal is that there would be:

• one set of 32 articles dealing solely with the traditional 32 counties
• one set dealing solely with the county councils and city councils in ROI
• one set dealing solely with the district councils in NI

The introduction to the set of 32 traditional county articles would be changed (as appropriate per article) so something like the following:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the thirty traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

Cities would presumable be handled similarly. --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support ~Asarlaí 22:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - this would leave substantial territorial divisions such as Fingal, STipp, etc. out though. We would obviously have articles about the county and city councils in the RoI and another set dealing with the district councils in NI. I would suggest we have the following:
• Newsflash The articles for the 3 sets above already exist. Plus it's missing a whole set - articles dealing with the non traditional counties (e.g. Fingal) Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes they alredy exist, but currently the 32 county articles deal with both the traditional counties and the county councils. ~Asarlaí 08:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

My own suggestion

Obviously the wording can be tweaked in these, but here are what I would suggest:

• Traditional counties with boundaries coterminous with those of administrative counties (19 in total - if my maths is correct):

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland, and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Meath County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

• Traditional counties no longer used in any capacity for administrative purposes (2 - Co. Dublin, Co. Tipperary):

County Dublin (Irish: Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland, and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... For local government purposes the county is divided into three administrative counties (Fingal, South Dublin, and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown) and Dublin City.

• Traditional counties where the succeeding county council is still responsible for the majority of the traditional county (Co. Galway, Co. Limerick, Co. Waterford, Co. Cork):

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

• Purely administrative counties (NTipp, STipp, Fingal, SDublin, DLR):

Fingal (Irish: Fine Gall) is one of the twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland, one of the three such counties formed from the former County Dublin in 1994.... ... Fingal County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

• Not a bad start. Don't have time to tweak it just now. But I think that the overall Counties of Ireland needs to make this fourfold division explicit. Each of the individual county articles also needs to make it explicit (perhaps in the lead of the History section of each article). Just to be technical, there are no administrative counties in Ireland. A synonym will have to be found for it to distinguish them from the 1898 entities that were explicitly devised as such (but which are now all abolished). (e.g. "non traditional", "modern") Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "there are no administrative counties in Ireland" - perhaps we should inform the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Department of Social Protection and the Central Statistics Office then! If indeed this is the case then perhaps we could amend "is an administrative county" to "is a county council area"? As I already stated we can not say it is the council, but we can say it is a "council area". What do you think?  _Cowag 09:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Support) Sounds good. For clarity though, how about something like: "... from the former County Dublin in 1994 ..." → "... from the former administrative country of County Dublin in 1994 ..." Laurel suggestions are good too. Personally, I don't mind "administrative counties" but there are plenty of alternatives e.g. "local authority counties". --RA (talk) 09:44, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Another point of view

I don't want to simply add my vote or my comment to the above as I think the whole basis for this discussion is wrong. When this was first discussed in June 2010 I voted to remove the word "traditional", and at the time the majority agreed with that. In the meantime it seems not only to have got consensus among this little group but to have become a fetish. Laurel Lodged is right about one thing: there are no "administrative counties" in Ireland. Neither are there "traditional counties". You can search all day and you won't find a single reliable source that says unambiguously that such things exist. The Republic has 26 counties, period. Other administrative areas have been created that have a County Council, a County Enterprise Board etc., but no statute, statutory instrument or bye-law ever said "these are counties". Therefore we cannot say that on Misplaced Pages. It fails WP:V. The intro to county articles should state the verifiable fact: it is one of the 32 counties of Ireland. This should be followed by "It is served by X County Council" or "It is served by two (or three) local authorities:..." Having two separate articles for the "traditional" county of, say, Wicklow and the "administrative" county of Wicklow makes no sense. There is only one County Wicklow. Having separate articles for Tipperary, Tipperary North and Tipperary South makes some sense, but to me it is still overkill. Scolaire (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The terms traditional and administrative are Misplaced Pages neologisms which violate the stricture against original research. — O'Dea (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree with both of you. Both terms are in use by the government and various state agencies as well as by the population in general. I've provided a list below outlining use of "administrative county". If you want I will find examples of "traditional county" such as this one by the Department of the Environment. I'll deal with Scolaire's comment in two parts - the first is directed at him because of one of his concerns, the second addresses the point brought up by the two of you:

• First off, no one is suggesting we would have one article for the administrative county of Wicklow and one for the traditional county of Wicklow. As I stated above, we would have one single article dealing with those counties whose boundaries are coterminous with the current administrative entity defined for local government purposes. That means one single article for Wicklow, one for Meath, one for Mayo, etc. But we would have 5 for Dublin - one traditional Co. Dublin (all of Fingal, DLR, SDublin and city), one for the city, and 3 for each of the other entities), 3 for Tipperary (Co. Tipp as well as NTipp and STipp), etc.
• Secondly, I already provided references for the usage of the term "administrative county" unless somehow providing references is now considered Original Research?!? For clarity, the references are here: Dept. Of Social Protection and the CSO. Other references could also be used such as: the National Botanic Gardens (1980), HSE (2011), CSO report hosted on RTÉ (2011), Logainm.ie (2009), CSO hosted on galwaycity.ie (2011), European Election Database (2011), Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co. Co. (2007), UCD Report on alcohol which mentions the administrative counties, StatCentral.ie (2007), CSO (again), another CSO, S.I. No. 214/2001, S.I. No. 106/1994, S.I. No. 561 of 2009, Louth County Council, Clare County Council, Sligo County Council, Wexford County Council. And they are just a few examples. How then is it original research?  _Cowag 11:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly original research anyways as what was the point of the county's on the first place? Administration. What do county councils do? Administrate. We aren't creating neologisms, we are simply stating what are former administrative or modern adminsitrative counties which is not OR.

This issue is highly emotive for some editors who adhere to the traditional sense of there only being "thirty-two" counties ever, but it is an issue that's arisen due to the fact the Republic has changed the administration of the area the counties made up. The use of "traditional" was agreed upon instead of "historical" to appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke by making it sound like the counties didn't exist at all anymore to any degree (yes they still do outside of government to tradtionalists and the GAA etc.).

The above suggestions i don't think are bad. A tweak or two maybe i don't know, but if it helps settle this endlessly recurring issue then by all means. Mabuska 11:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Also disagree with both of you. The terms traditional and administrative are not Misplaced Pages neologisms. The are supportedable by reliable sources.

Mac Tíre's refenence to the logainm.ie (© Rialtas na hÉireann 2009) is quite definitive: "Administrative counties: Subdivisions of pre-established counties which were formed for administrative purposes in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. / Counties: Administrative units larger than baronies and originally established by the British administration in Ireland between the twelfth and the seventeenth centuries. Some of these were subsequently subdivided into smaller administrative county units."

For "traditional counties", this phrasing is supported by referecnes such as the following:

"The term 'All-Irish' is in common use for many cultural, sports, and other purposes, and many events, competitions, and organizations are 'All-Irish', that is, they cover the entire area of the 32 traditional counties of the island and not just the Republic of Ireland." World and Its Peoples, 2010

"The twenty-six traditional counties of Eire and the six traditional counties of Northern Ireland are used as the standard Irish geographical designations." - Robert A. Faleer, Church Woodwork in the British Isles, 1100-1535, 2009

Also has, Mabuska, says this is hardly original research. "Administrative" and "traditional" are merely adjectives, which can be useful to us when differentiating between 26/6 and 29/0. (And that's before we even talk about the cities: how can Cork be the principal city of County Cork, when it purportedly has not been in County Cork since the late 19th century?) --RA (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected on the existence of the term "administrative county" - although MacTire's links refer variously to 1898 counties and 21st-century counties. I am less convinced about the common use of "traditional counties". At any rate I must tone down my more extreme remarks like "we cannot say that on Misplaced Pages." Nevertheless, I still maintain that the primary use of "county" in modern parlance, both in ordinary life and in books and news media, is not the administrative division. There are signs on the roads saying "Welcome to County Tipperary"; tourist organisations try to attract visitors to County Tipperary; people like Mary Hanafin are said to be from Tipperary; a letter addressed to Clonmel, County Tipperary will be delivered without fuss, as will a letter addressed to Malahide, County Dublin or Kells, County Antrim; and yes, Tipperary have an excellent hurling team. I take exception to the snide remark that counties exist "to tradtionalists and the GAA etc" as though the GAA was some sort of fringe organisation or cult (not to mention "appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke"). Counties exist. They are part of everybody's life in Ireland.

Mabuska has put his finger on the problem: the issue is highly emotive for some editors, but not for "traditionalists" who want to kid themselves "there were only 32 counties ever". All of the compromising and tweaking and general mucking-up of the lead sections of county articles in the Republic has been to deal with a non-existant issue: that any occurence of the words "32" and "counties" together represents an irredentist claim on Northern Ireland. I believe it's time we put that whole thing to bed, and started editing the lead sections of county articles to reflect real life again.

In answer ro RA's question, "how can Cork be the principal city of County Cork, when it purportedly has not been in County Cork since the late 19th century?" Good question, yet most of the time, if you're filling out a form on the internet and you give Cork as the town, you'll be asked what county. If you give Dublin as the town, you'll be asked to choose the county from a drop-down list, which does not include Fingal, South County Dublin or Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown. Real life, see? Scolaire (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's an example: Two-Mile Borris was in the news recently because of proposals to build a casino. I don't know which "administrative county" it is in. How many news articles, magazine features or web pages dealing with the casino proposals will tell me which, compared with the thousands that tell me it is in County Tipperary? Scolaire (talk) 07:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

"All of the compromising and tweaking and general mucking-up of the lead sections of county articles in the Republic has been to deal with a non-existant issue: that any occurence of the words "32" and "counties" together represents an irredentist claim on Northern Ireland. I believe it's time we put that whole thing to bed, and started editing the lead sections of county articles to reflect real life again."

Hardly Scolaire we where involved in the original lede consensus that adopted the use of thirty-two counties for all county articles, which hasn't been raised as a problem since until Sarah777 wanted to remove RoI unpiped from the RoI county ledes - the only way to do so was to remove the thirty-two counties stuff as when mentioning the island of Ireland and the state we HAVE to use RoI unpiped. Dropping the thirty-two counties bit meant RoI had to be piped according to the IMoS. In fact maybe you have't noticed but if it was really as issue for those, to coin a term, anti-irredentists, then how come the thirty-two counties bit is still in the NI county articles after all this time? Wouldn't those six articles be the prime target for its removal? So i'd lay the blame on Sarah777 for it and not those who think it represented irredentist claims on Northern Ireland.

""to tradtionalists and the GAA etc" as though the GAA was some sort of fringe organisation or cult (not to mention "appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke"). Counties exist. They are part of everybody's life in Ireland."

Now your reading too much into it. Nowhere does it imply the GAA is a fringe organisation or cult. No-one is denying counties exist, hence why we choose the term traditional over historical - there is a big difference. One implies it no longer exists, the other that it still does. Mabuska 15:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in "laying the blame" on anyone. And I don't accept that doing anything on Misplaced Pages means you "HAVE" to do something else. I'm only interested in having the intro to articles give information that's relevant to the real world instead of quasi-legal rubbish. The intro to County Kildare currently says "County Kildare is a former administrative county of Ireland." A former administrative county! Scolaire (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly misleading seeing as the traditional counties are no longer used as an administrative units by the government - that's real world. Mabuska 10:36, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

An alternative

As an alternative, what if we just stopped playing the numbers game altogether, and said "Kildare is a ] in ]"? It's concise, it's verifiable, it's politically neutral, and it's free of bureaucratic terminology. Scolaire (talk) 21:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds pretty perfect to me! Fmph (talk) 08:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Just one line? Isn't that a bit bare? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I like "Kildare is one of the 32 counties of Ireland." Others don't. If it's a choice between piling on adjectives or stripping it to a bare six words, then I'll go for bare. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe this is the best solution all round. --HighKing (talk) 10:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

So you believe "Fingal is a ] in ]" is fine?  _Cowag 10:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Obviously not! Leave Fingal as it is. The five "new" administrative areas are going to be treated differently anyway. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well legally speaking it is a county. Irrespective of opinion or popular definitions, you can't leave information out simply to satisfy a 32-county definition of what is a county. Fingal is a county. It may not be a county in the traditional sense, but it is still a county. Having a simplistic definition such as "County X is a county" ignores the distinction between those current administrative counties and those counties recognised as popular definitions of what is a county.  _Cowag 11:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually yes. "Fingal is a ] in ]" is fine. --HighKing (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But would that not be confusing to those who don't know? Like suggesting "Fingal is a county..." while also suggesting that "County Dublin is a county..." - we would be putting them on a par despite the fact they are completely different things.  _Cowag 13:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No more or less confusing that using "traditional county" and "administrative county" in the lede. The problem we've encountered is that, from a WP:COMMONNAME POV, the vast majority of people only really think about the "traditional" counties. The administrative areas, also called counties, are seen as different. I believe the best solution is for a very simple lede, and do the explaining within the article. --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That is a bit too bare and ambiguous. Counties (or their equivalents) to anyone outside of Ireland are administrative divisions of a country - implying that they are still being used as administrative units when in fact they aren't. How about stating "is a traditional county"? That'd help a bit and as MacTire showed, is well sourced. Mabuska 10:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Why suggest to me the very thing I'm objecting to? Counties of Ireland to anyone outside Ireland is where their grandparents came from, or where The Quiet Man was made. Try and leave the "my way or the highway" attitude behind and work towards a solution that will suit all sides. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem with saying "is a traditional county" is the vagueness or ambiguity of the phrase. To the newly arrived, this statement would raise an unanswered question, "What is a traditional county? Is it a relatively undeveloped place or something, or somewhere where traditions are unusually strong?" — O'Dea (talk) 11:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe that it is a traditional county in the same sense as something that is traditional, like England and France are traditional enemies etc.

"Try and leave the "my way or the highway" attitude behind and work towards a solution that will suit all sides." - what my way or the highway attitude? Also a solution that will suit yours and O'Deas side? So how do we take into the account the fact Fingal is a modern county in the sense of it whilst County Dublin is not administrative wise? Just exaplain it in the article itself? Mabuska 10:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Explain it in the article itself? Careful, Mabuska, that is a radical idea! ;-) Scolaire (talk) 10:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

"...we would be putting them on a par despite the fact they are completely different things." How many times must this be explained? It's not that difficult. They are on a par. They are the same thing. The difference between them is temporal not functional. Both perform (or used to perform) the same thing - administration (some combination of judicial, financial and civil administration). Some contain entities that continue to perform this function (e.g. county councils), others contain entities that no longer do so but that used to do so (e.g. Grand Juries, County Azzises). Some are popularly capitalised (e.g. County X), others do not enjoy such popular favour (e.g. Fingal). Each is still a county. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

By saying they are not on a par what I meant was the following: legally, Fingal is a county, while Co. Dublin is not. Fingal was established by the Irish authorities, Co. Dublin was not. Co. Dublin enjoys popular cultural, sporting, and self-identification status (people from Blanchardstown, Skerries, etc. rarely say they are from Fingal, they usually say they are from Co. Dublin), while Fingal does not. To state they are counties is true, and perfectly fine. But without clarification in the first few lines we are leading the reader to believe both entities are current geo-political administrative divisions. After all, most countries that use counties as divisions do not attribute any cultural or self-identifying status to those areas. In most countries they are simply political divisions; in Ireland, and to a lesser extent England, counties are much more than political administrative divisions, and by leaving out the distinctions between them we are misleading the reader, who, to be quite honest, generally tends to read only the first few lines of an article.  _Cowag 06:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

These things can be worked around. For instance, County Dublin could say "Dublin is a county in Ireland", with discussion of its division into four local government areas in the body of the article; Fingal could say "Fingal is a county in Ireland. It is one of three administrative counties into which County Dublin was divided in 1994", with further details in the body of the article. I take your point about readers only reading the first few lines, but it is unwise, not to say impossible, to try to condense a 16k article into a couple of lines. Remember, KISS. --Scolaire (talk) 07:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggested tweak of above: "Fingal is a county in Ireland. It is one of three smaller counties into which County Dublin was divided in 1994". — O'Dea (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Bonfire Night move discussions

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night (disambiguation)#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

Two strange articles! I've never heard the term "Bonfire Night" used in Ireland, but maybe it is in some places. Scolaire (talk) 08:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

All down the west coast of Ireland (at the very least). Come up to Sligo some post-summer solstice and you'll see plenty of them.  _Cowag 10:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of bonfires in the east. I'm wondering which night of the year is called "Bonfire Night" in Sligo. Scolaire (talk) 11:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

23rd June. Though usually kids like to set bonfires on the nights leading up to it too. _Cowag 11:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Cool! I've learned something, then. Scolaire (talk) 15:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

May Eve in Limerick and yup, Bonfire Night was the usual name. Not sure if it's as big as it was in my youth but still going... (err, the tradition, not the fires :). Not that I ever got to go to one.... damn my sheltered childhood! :) FlowerpotmaN·(t) 19:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)