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Revision as of 20:49, 16 March 2006

Hey everyone, I think we can still expand and improve the wording in this article. I've noticed there have been some revisions over the past few days. It'd be nice to post here what exactly that you changed just so we don't have to read the entire article to find changes. Hey Tigran. --MarshallBagramyan 21:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yair Auron

Thanks for the reference. I still believe (in fact i'm confidant) that this is a fabrication. I will get back to this article after I thouroughly research the matter and present my references.--Eupator 18:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Auron's source comes from an American historian named Alexander Dallin from his book German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945: A Study in Occupation Policies (London and Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1981, second edition) pp. 229, 251.--MarshallBagramyan 04:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This article was made for a purpose

I felt justification of the Armenian Legion throughout the whole article. An attempt to prove them innocent while throwing a stone at Muslims and Turkics.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Justification for what? That is a grossly vague and ambiguous comment. Many Red Army soldiers volunteered to serve in the German Wehrmacht, they were called "Ostruppen" or "East troops" since many of them were from the Baltics, the Ukraine and the other parts of Eastern Europe. The fact that some of them were Armenians makes them no different than French legions defending Berlin in 1945. The Armenian legion was nothing but a logistical and an anti-aircraft battalion in Netherlands, nothing significant about them.

And I'm growing tired of policing you around while you constantly vandalize one Armenian related topic after another without giving any sufficent reasons for them. There are rules on Misplaced Pages, like assume good faith. I'm trying to assume good faith here because I know articles are never perfect and need outside editing anf fixing but you come off as just another paranoid Turk who thinks there's an Armenian conspiracy against Turks and Turkic people. --MarshallBagramyan 21:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No actually I am policing you and I am not being paranoid. I don't think you meant to offend Muslims or Turks with that quote, you just want everyone to think of Armenians as righteous people... even when they are cooperating with Nazis. I think the only person who has issues with Muslims here is Yair Auron.--Kagan the Barbarian 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That's because throughout history Armenians have been a peaceful, benevolent people which have contributed heavily into works of art and beauty not destruction. That quote in no way should offend Muslims as Eupator and others were inquiring more into what units Hitler trusted and those were Muslims such as the Croats and other Balkan battalions he created. Its a simple truth Adolf Hitler professed to his aides and just because it sounds offending doesn't make it any less true. There's no use in denying that Turkey too, had signed several agreements with Nazi Germany for bilateral cooperation and trade and even copy-cat Nazi uniform designs at the time. But that's not the issue here, you're only advancing in what YOU think is a POV problem, not what it really.

And Yair Auron's quote comes from an American historian, read his book and understand that he is quite an amiable writer who researches the sociological aspects of the Genocide. --MarshallBagramyan 23:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Armenians like you are doing great damage to Misplaced Pages NPoV, you are pushing Armenian PoV everywhere. I won't even get into Turkey's neutrality during WWII. Trade agreements? Pfftt, like they mean anything. What about USA-Nazi trade agreements until WWII broke? For example the Ford Motor Company did business in Germany until US entered the war. What about neutral Sweden supplying the Nazis with iron during the war, the most precious element for any war machine. What about the Swiss accepting all the blood stained Nazi money in their banks? USA even granted American citizenship to SS scientists after WWII. Current Pope even is a former SS member. And I am sure there were Armenians who were more than happy to cooperate with the Nazis despite your efforts here to portray all of them as Oscar Schindler.

The truth is the word Nazi today is being used to associate events or people with evil. Nazis are no longer humans gone mad in history but biblical demons from the past. That's why today every group who had something to do with them tries to prove themselves innocent while accusing their enemies or opponents of being Nazi perpetrators in order to hurt their image.

Anyway back to what matters here, I would like to know American writer's sources for knowing such a quote from Hitler; I would like to know if it is sourced or attributed. If attributed then by who.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Trading between a car company (Ford) and trade with a neutral country (Sweden) is much less disparaging than the actually signing of a friendship treaty with Nazi Germany. Some Turkish university professors went so far as to even copy and make mock swastikas and preach anti-semitic ideals and glorification of the Nazi doctrine.

Turkey was hardly a neutral member in World War II. In name perhaps, but in practice, it was just as ready to declare war on the Soviet Union if Stalingrad would fall and march into the heart of Armenia and connect with Azerbaijan. Perhaps this should be included also but one of the people like Dro formulated an Armenian volunteer division was to liberate Armenia from Stalin's grip and to quickly move in and defend any aggressive advances made by the Turkish army in the event Stalingrad would fall. The quote, I now believe to be suspect but I want it to remain until I can check up Dallin's source.

I'm removing the POV tag also since you honestly have no comprehension of its purpose.--MarshallBagramyan 21:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are deliberately diverting the discussion. Using shallow and simple accusations and speculations to blur the subject. Without citing sources, I can say Armenians were trying to convince Stalin to declare war on Turkey or Armenians were very happy with getting rid of Jews or Armenians are behind 9/11. See, it is easy. As we say in Turkish, "Throw a mud at someone, its stain will remain"

Anyway, you still haven't given me any sources for the quote or told me anything about any major disobedience within the legion that supports the quote. Look, I am sure there were some Armenians who helped or tried to help the Jews but there were 18,000 of them according to the information you gave and my sources tell me some of them were in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions fighting the partisans. I would like to hear more about these rather than a fabricated quote. Make informative, fair, NPoV articles. If you find me pushing Turkish POV, tell me.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Deliberately diverting the discussion? Excuse me but it is not me who is visiting every article and crying "bias!" in Armenian-related issues. These are hardly "shallow" accusations. While the first premise is correct that several Armenians lobbied Stalin to fight and take back Kars and Ardahan from Turkey (the British eventually stopped them and so did the Americans when they formed close ties later on) the latter one with Jews and 9/11 and Armenians makes me question your intelligence and integrity to issues.

Turkey signed a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany on 18 June 1941. Turkey had earlier signed an agreement to entering war on the allied side with the French and British in 1939 but this new treaty just went to show that it was more closer fascist Germany than democratic Britain.

"The first was the revival of pan-Turkism....resurfaced in July 1941 under the leadership of professor Zeki Velidi Togan of Istanbul University. Unashamedly racist, in imitation of the Nazis its leaders adopted the trappings of Fascism, down to an imitation-Hitler hairstyle and colourful uniform."

• Henderson, Alexander. January 1945. "The Pan-Turanian Myth in Turkey Today", Asiatic Review, vol. XLI, pp. 88–92

On August 5 1941 German ambassador to Turkey Franz von Papen reported to Berlin that Turkish government "were showing increasing interest in the fate of their kinsmen, 'particularly the Azerbaijan Turks" showing proof Turkey was also determined to invade the Soviet Union in the case of a German victory. He continued:

These circles tend to recollect 1918 events: their wish is to annex the above area, especially the rich Baku oil fields. To these ends a committee of experts has been set up, embodying specialists who once officiated in this type of work during Abdul Hamid's time. This committee is to gather all pertinent material and is to enlist, in Turkey from the ranks of recent emigrants, and from immigrants – notably those in the Azerbaijan province of Iran – support for a union of the new Turkey with the Turk-inhabited regions bordering on it in the east, up to the Caspian sea.

Hostler C. W., "Turkism and the Soviets" New York, 1957, page 172

And of course after the Red Army defeated the Germans in Stalingrad these fasicistic notions were sent back to the filing cabinet.

Although Armenians may have been assimilated into battalions or sent into even smaller regiments I want to see what proof you have to show me. Obviously Hitler's quote sounds questionable but to call it a "fabrication" without citing any proof to the contrary is not bounds for "POV problems" (Auron's source came from a letter that he recieved by a Dutch historian who cited Dallin in his essay to Auron). You are claiming that what is listed in the article is false and hence, the burden of proof lies upon you to disprove it. --MarshallBagramyan 20:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Moosh88

You can't remove the POV tag untill the dispute is over. If this article isn't Armenian PoV, I don't know what is. It consists of 5% information about legions structure, 95% about how actually they were anti-Nazi at heart, as if we can say that for a legion of thousands that served in the German Wehrmacht. I did some research and some suggest they fought in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions, also someone mentions this site but I don't know Armenian so .

Also the quote from Adolph Hitler needs to cite sources, otherwise it has to be mentioned that the quote is attributed to Adolph Hitler by an American historian (Alexander Dallin). I'd also like to know if there were any major rebellions or disobedience within the Armenian Legion that supports this quote. Thank you.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with you on this my barbarian friend from Altai. I believe the quotes attributed to Hitler are total fabrications. I suggest you make an article about the various Turkic Nazi legions in order to display what a similar article shoudl look like. Also shouldn't you add this tag to Georgian Legion ?--Eupator 21:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is I don't know anything about Turkic Legions except that they existed as a part of the Eastern Legions. Even if I made the page, trust me I wouldn't put stuff like, "Hitler once said "God, these Turks sure love Jews. I don't trust them one bit, Himmler, write down my words so everybody in the future will know I didn't trust Turks and they can't be held responsible for my evil actions" or "Turkic legion did nothing wrong, they usually missed their targets deliberately or faked shooting by shouting "BLAM BLAM" and saved hundreds of Jews and partisans, God bless them."

If you found Georgian Legion un-neutral then put the tag and tell them your reasons. I don't know anything about the subject. Cheers Armenian brother!--Kagan the Barbarian 09:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)