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'To do' section of IWNB

The page Misplaced Pages:Irish Wikipedians' notice board/to do, which updates the "to do" section of IWNB, has only been updated very infrequently. Further, if any work has been done on any of these, they have not been struck through, so there is no way of knowing if they are still to do or not. Some articles, e.g. DS&ER, Irish railway clearing house, Patrick Galvin "(author of the Raggy Boy books recently filmed)", Wanderly Wagon, East Point Business Park, Leaving Certificate and The Late Late Show "- dePOVing needed", have been on the list since September 2004, the month it was created! Seven items have been added in the last twelve months, viz.:

• GoCar
• GoCar (not a typo, it's there twice)
• Gaeltacht quarter - this is a redirect to Neo-Gaeltacht
• Illicit drug use in Ireland
• Motorway service areas of Ireland
• Four Star Pizza
• John Rocha (fashion designer)

The thing is, if you look at these seven on their own, they don't really look like the seven most pressing Ireland-related issues on Misplaced Pages, do they? But after twelve months, any or all of the others might have reached FA by now for all we know. Though I suspect they haven't, because I suspect nobody even looks at the list any more. I recommend that the entire list should be purged and, if somebody is willing to put in the time, a more realistic to-do list be substituted, to be updated if and when articles are tackled. Scolaire (talk) 12:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Two weeks and no objections. I have purged the list. Scolaire (talk) 17:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Bonfire Night move discussions

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night (disambiguation)#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

Two strange articles! I've never heard the term "Bonfire Night" used in Ireland, but maybe it is in some places. Scolaire (talk) 08:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

All down the west coast of Ireland (at the very least). Come up to Sligo some post-summer solstice and you'll see plenty of them.  _Cowag 10:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of bonfires in the east. I'm wondering which night of the year is called "Bonfire Night" in Sligo. Scolaire (talk) 11:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

23rd June. Though usually kids like to set bonfires on the nights leading up to it too. _Cowag 11:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Cool! I've learned something, then. Scolaire (talk) 15:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

May Eve in Limerick and yup, Bonfire Night was the usual name. Not sure if it's as big as it was in my youth but still going... (err, the tradition, not the fires :). Not that I ever got to go to one.... damn my sheltered childhood! :) FlowerpotmaN·(t) 19:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I thought Bonfire Night was the eleventh of July ;) WikiuserNI (talk) 00:14, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Only one of many WikiuserNI :)  _Cowag 06:26, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

In Leinster we have bonfires on Hallowe'en and/or Guy Fawkes, but it is all about fireworks from Newry, getting rid of old mattresses and tractor tyres, and testing the neighbour's new batch of poitin against the night chill; nothing at all to do with politics or religion.Red Hurley (talk) 13:26, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed moves on several articles relating to Ireland's foreign relations

There is currently a centralised discussion at Talk:Denmark – Republic of Ireland relations that could probably do with input from more editors. RashersTierney (talk) 19:42, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

New county intros.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have a couple of points, the first I am raising because I have a genuine concern regarding the wording. The second is a modified repost of a comment I left at the talkpage of User:Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs) but which I feel requires attention:
1) "Kildare County Council is the local authority administrative area that now covers the county." Since when do boards, organisations, etc. now constitute geographic areas? It is a council after all?
2) If these county articles are referring to the former administrative areas then a lot of information in, and related to, the counties needs to be changed.

i) The Co. Co. crests can no longer be permitted and so must be removed as they now no longer refer to the same administrative unit (apart from the fact that the crests, for the most part, lack the appropriate image tags - e.g. the Meath Co. Co. crest is a copyrighted image but it has been given the wrong licence tags in Commons, but that's a separate issue).

ii) Secondly, the websites need to be removed as they refer to the Co. Co. area and not the former administrative county.

iii) Also, each of the county towns need to be changed as those towns are no longer county towns of Co. Meath, Co. Longford, etc. as the counties don't exist (a town can not be a county town of a non-existent county - perhaps something along the lines of "Navan is the county town of Meath County Council and the former county town of County Meath" - they are, after all, two completely separate things.

iv) The information regarding population and area (km/mi) is not relevant to these county articles any more, as they now refer to historical entities - and those entities have never had the same area throughout their entire existence. Perhaps mention the area and population, but a specific point in time needs to be selected for this.

v) These county articles also mention "government type" and suggest they are governed by "county councils". However the lead states these "counties" no longer exist - you can not have a government type for something that does not exist. This must also go.

3) On a further point, may I ask as to why only those counties in the Republic of Ireland have had the lead changed while those counties in Northern Ireland have not, considering the areas in Northern Ireland have been entirely replaced with completely different boundaries (except Fermanagh which has only had minor alterations) while those of the Republic have only had a status change (except a minority which have been subdivided, and a further minority with minor boundary changes)?  _Cowag 21:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I have given up following this rigamorle about the counties. I notice Laurel Lodged has made another set of large-scale changes across articles relating to this topic. What is the "Option 3" that these changes relate to? Where did the apparent discussion the preceeded these changes take place?

For my 2¢, I believe we should have three classes of articles:

1. 32 articles dealing with the traditional counties of Ireland (e.g. County Mayo) in a geographic and cultural sense
2. Articles dealing with the local authorities in the Republic of Ireland (e.g. Mayo County Council), including information about the areas under their jurisdiction as relevant
3. Articles dealing with the local authorities in Northern Ireland (e.g. Down District Council), including information about the areas under their jurisdiction as relevant

In many cases these will cover the same geographic area, however in other cases they will not (e.g. Cork city is in County Cork in a geographic and cultural sense but is not in the area administered by Cork County Council). In this case, I believe material relating to the local government should be removed from the "geographical/cultural" article to the "local authority" article.

With regards to arms, there is an argument that a geographic area such as County Mayo cannot bear arms, only an body such as Mayo County Council can. However, there is a strong tradition in Ireland of geographic areas having arms attributed to them e.g. the provinces. --RA (talk) 23:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the arms - the vast majority of the county councils had arms or logos redesigned. Take Meath for example. The previous arms for the traditional county was the same as the GAA arms - the high king seated on the Royal Tara throne. The current logo/crest/arms is a copyrighted image, yet here on wiki not only do we not have the proper licence and attribution given to it, but with the county article's downgrading it is now used on a page that it no longer belongs to. Other images that I have gone through have fair use rationales applied but no licence, or licences but no fair use rationales, and in some cases nothing whatsoever!  _Cowag 05:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about "the vast majority" (certainly a lot did) - but definately your substantive point about fair-use rationale for in-copyright images is correct and is a very important thing for us to consider. --RA (talk) 07:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the crests/logos/arms, the following counties need to have them removed: Co. Cavan (incorrect arms used - wrong ratio), Co. Clare (©1986 Clare Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Galway (arms are © Galway Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Galway city), Co. Kerry (©1984 Kerry Co. Co., refers to Council, not County), Co. Kildare (arms refer to council, not county), Co. Kilkenny (arms refer to the council, not the county and refer to the current administrative division while the article refers to the entire county including Kilkenny city), Co. Laois (©1998 Laois Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Leitrim (©1980 - refers to council, not county), Co. Limerick (© Limerick Co. Co. - refers to Council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Limerick City), Co. Longford (© Longford Co. Co. - refers to council, not county), Co. Meath (© Meath Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Monaghan (©1984 Monaghan Co. Co. - refers to council, not county), Co. Offaly (©1983 Offaly Co. Co. - refers to Council, not County), Co. Sligo (refers to council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county - current arms of council adopted 1980, prior to that the arms of the Borough of Sligo were used), Co. Waterford (©1997 Waterford Co. Co. - refers to council, not county - refers to the current administrative division, while the article refers to the entire county including Waterford City - arms adopted 1997 prior to which the arms of the city were used), Co. Westmeath (©1969 - refers to council, not county). These are the problems regarding imagery used on the "traditional" counties as WP now stands. I have not gone into the details of the other divisions. However, having just read over some of the other divisions I did notice that the divisions in Dublin (Fingal, South Dublin, DLR) all begin with "X is an administrative county in the Republic of Ireland" while the traditional counties begin with "X is a former administrative county in the Republic of Ireland". There is a little bit of a problem here. I understand the whole discussion that was conducted previously, but the problem lies with the wording - we are now treating the "geographic" area of the Dublin-based areas as administrative divisions while we give the same distinction to elected representatives and their organizations outside of Dublin. (At least the last time I checked you can definitely say "Balbriggan is a town in Fingal", but you certainly would not say that "Slane is a town in Meath County Council" which is what the current wording now requires us to do). _Cowag 09:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the previous discussion - that can be found here.  _Cowag 14:56, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't see anything in either the discussion MacTire linked to or any previous discussions that would justify the addition of that sentence to the lead of County Kildare, or any of the fiddling round that's being done on other articles. Those leads have been stable over time, and any edits that don't have an obvious consensus ought to be immediately reverted, pending proper discussion. Scolaire (talk) 16:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with RA's proposal above. We need three sets of articles each dealing with one entity:

• one set of 32 articles dealing solely with the traditional 32 counties
• one set dealing solely with the county councils and city councils (ROI)
• one set dealing solely with the district councils (NI).

~Asarlaí 17:23, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --HighKing (talk) 18:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Loath as I am to say it, but I think we need a proper vote on the issue of the wording. The last "consensus" was so obfuscated by bickering over the RoI/Ireland piping issue that I feel many people (including myself) at the time simply switched off. We need to keep this as much in topic as possible. The concept of piping should be left as agreed upon in the IMOS. I agree with RA's proposal above but I fail to see how we can continue to state that an elected body is somehow a geographic entity (it would be akin to suggesting that Dáil Éireann is a geographic entity - after all, both are elected and both are responsible for the administration of their respective territories). The sentence "X County Council is the local authority administrative area..." just does not make sense. X County Council may be the local administrative authority, but it can not be the area too - that's not what the word council means in any stretch of the imagination (or at least the last time I checked the Meath County Manager didn't have any rivers running through him or mountains protruding from him)!  _Cowag 20:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the key is to get our heads out of a space where we fret over the existential consequences of the 2001 Local Government Act. While under the 2001 act, Cork city ceased to be the largest settlement in the county of Cork, this is verifiably not the case. The apparent contradiction between the 2001 Act and other reliable sources can only be resolved if we accept that there is such a thing as a "county" according to the 2001 act and another things that is a "county" according other verifiable sources.

Thus, I would suggest wordings like the following:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the 32 traditional counties of Ireland and one of the 26 traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

The article, I would suggest, should continue with geographical / cultural content about County Cork (the one that contains Cork city), whereas material to do with the local authority should be given in Cork County Council. --RA (talk) 21:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The current wording of the county intros is seriously flawed and needs to be changed. Also, in what sense were the counties of Ireland abolished? I was looking at the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2009 recently and the Dáil Éireann constituencies are defined mostly in terms of counties:

"Mayo - The county of Mayo." The Act also uses electoral divisions in former Rural districts,

"Louth - The county of Louth; and, in the county of Meath, the electoral divisions of: Julianstown, St. Mary’s (part), in the former Rural District of Meath." Rural Districts were abolished in 1925, so hence the user of former in the Act but the Act does not refer to counties as former or former administrative counties, simply county of X.

Looking at the Local Government Act 2001:

Section 2 states: “administrative area” means an area which continues to stand established under section 10 for the purposes of local government and which is—

(a) a county in the case of a county council,

(b) a city in the case of a city council,

(c) a town in the case of a town council;.

In section 10.2: "The State continues to stand divided into local government areas to be known as counties and cities which are the areas set out in Parts 1 and 2, respectively, of Schedule 5." (Schedule 5 lists the 34 current Counties and Cities).

In section 11.2:

"(2) For each county or city set out in Schedule 5 there continues to stand established under this section a body for the purposes of local government and each such body is a local authority and each such county or city is its administrative area."

"(3) The local authorities referred to in subsection (2) are the primary units of local government and shall be known as—

(a) in the case of a county set out in Part 1 of Schedule 5, the name of such county followed by the words “County Council”, and

(b) in the case of a city set out in Part 2 of Schedule 5, the name of such city followed by the words “City Council”."

"(6) For the purposes of functions conferred on it by or under this or any other enactment—

(a) county council has jurisdiction throughout its administrative area except for such functions as are by law vested in any town council, the administrative area of which is situated in the county concerned, but without prejudice to section 70."

I'm not a legal person and correct me if I'm wrong but I think the acts says that the State is divided into local government areas (counties & cities), and for counties, these counties are the administrative area of the relevant County Council. So they still appear to exist in some legal sense. Snappy (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

That was indeed my entire point Snappy. The idea that the assembling body of people was somehow a geographic entity just seemed ridiculous to me. Regarding the wording in what you have placed here, I think it was section 11.2 (3) that caused the changing in the wording of the county articles. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, it states that "the local authorities...are the primary units of local government and shall be known as...the name of such county followed by the words "County Council"..." This, to me, suggests the name by which the administrative body should be known - not the administrative area. The local authorities here refers to the group of elected representatives, their offices and departments, their responsibilities, rights and duties, etc., but not the actual geography. Geography in the case of county/city councils is incidental and is simply a territorial delimiter placed on the geographic extent of those activities necessary for the fulfilment of the roles as outlined in the previous sentence. _Cowag 22:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Coincidentally, today's featured article is about Somerset, a county in England. Worth a read. Snappy (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Geographic is where a county is. Geographic is not what a county is. What is the function of a county? Is it to be a set of co-ordinates on a map? Webster's dictionary defines it as "one of the territorial divisions of England and Wales and formerly also of Scotland and Northern Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judicial, and political purposes". So it's clear that county is a twin: territory and administration. You can't have one without the other. While the above interpretation of 11.2(3) is correct, the corollary drawn from it is incorrect. Administration does not occur in the abstract; it occurs in a given geographic area. One cannot say that Mayo CoCo administers without saying where or what territory it administers. It administers the area formerly known as the "administrative county of Mayo". That entity no longer exists. Only Mayo CoCo exists. Prior to the "administrative county of Mayo" you had the County of Mayo and prior to that again you had tribal 'tuatha' and petty kingdoms. The territory always existed; only for a limited time was it the county of Mayo. The territory is now that part of Ireland that is under the jurisdiction of Mayo CoCo. It has no twilight zone existance apart from the CoCo. This is not so much an existential question as a definitional one. To try to separate the territory from the function of judicial and political administration is deny the very definition of "county". Absent judicial and political administration and what are you left with - a set of co-ordinates. Who would want to read about 53|54|N|9|15|W ? That's what Google maps is for. You don't need an encyclopedia for that. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

And yet, I can "discover" County Tipperary despite there being no Tipperary County Council for over a century. Or is it an example of more cute hoorism that the Government will direct us to Citizens Information Centers in "County Dublin", knowing full well that there is no such place?

Laurel, you think about this matter both too much and too little. --RA (talk) 23:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I think WP:COMMON has some applicability here too. And the fact that our national postal service still asks you to search for your local office by county, or that Government websites still list their offices by county shows that there is a separation between the administrative areas, and the common geographical regions. --HighKing (talk) 00:26, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I think Laurel would have us believe that human beings are inhabited by other human beings, and that rivers, mountains, coastlines, etc. are now all features to be discovered in the human body. I'm afraid Laurel you are wrong. Read Section 2(a) " “administrative area” means an area which continues to stand established under section 10 for the purposes of local government and which is...a county in the case of a county council." Do you see that? " “administrative area” means an area which is...a county in the case of a county council". Apart from anything else, not one single piece of evidence has been put forward which suggests the Irish government has changed the meaning of the word "council" in the English language. A "council" is a body of people - it is NOT the territory over which they govern. That is analogous to saying that "Dublin is in the Oireachtas" simply because the Oireachtas governs Ireland and Dublin is in Ireland. Laurel states that we are trying to "deny the very definition of "county"". I would counter by saying he is denying the very definition of "council". Even in Irish the county councils themselves do not recognise his definition. Take Meath Co. Co. - In Irish the co. co. is rendered as "Comhairle Chontae na Mí" or in English the "Council of County Meath". This exact phrasing emphasises that county and council are two separate but related things. If it were to be a single non-divisible entity the Irish would be "Comhairle Contae na Mí", but it's not! This means, according to Laurel, that not only are there no geographic entities in Ireland any more, but that even the political divisions themselves don't recognise their own existence!!!  _Cowag 06:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, by the same definition, there are no cities in Ireland - there are simply City Councils. Therefore Dublin is not a city - it's a City Council. So Kiltimagh is in Mayo County Council. Bective is in Meath County Council. Swords is in Fingal County Council and Cabra is in Dublin City Council. Trim, Navan, Ballina, Naas, etc. no longer exist and are instead Trim Town Council, Navan Town Council, Ballina Town Council, Naas Town Council!  _Cowag 06:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Further to the topic at hand. Meath Co. Co. describes the area as a "county" and not a "county council" in its "County Development Plan 2007-2013" (note: if the county no longer existed then already that is wrong and should read "County Council Development Plan"). In its 2013-2019 County Development Plan the Council "... people to think about County Meath...". In the council's own tourism literature it describes "County Meath Ireland's Heritage Capital". The Council also has information related to "Affordable Homes for sale across County Meath". I could go on. And that is only from Meath County Council's own website, never mind the websites of other County Councils or any other literature from said organisations. Laurel stated "Geographic is where a county is. Geographic is not what a county is. What is the function of a county?" Well function is not what a county is either. According to the Macmillan dictionary, a county is "a region that has its own local government in some countries such as the UK and US". In the case of Ireland this means a region that has its own local government (read: County Council). According to Collins, a county is "any of the administrative or geographic subdivisions of certain states, esp. any of the major units into which England and Wales are or have been divided for purposes of local government". As Laurel correctly stated, Merriam Webster gives "one of the territorial divisions of England and Wales and formerly also of Scotland and Northern Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judicial, and political purposes". All emphasis in those definitions is my own, but what can be observed from that is that a county is a territorial, or geographic, unit established for the purposes of administration and governance. In order to fulfil these responsibilities a County Council is established (Cambridge gives "an elected group of people which forms the government of a county" as the definition of County Council). For County, Cambridge gives "a political division of the UK or Ireland, forming the largest unit of local government, or the largest political division of a state in the US" and gives the following sentences as an example of usage: "A county usually consists of several towns and the rural areas which surround them." "Rutland used to be the smallest county in England, but in 1974 it became part of Leicestershire." In other words, a county is indeed established for governance, but then so is a country. If you want to describe Co. Meath as Meath County Council, then logic follows that you can describe Ireland (the state) as An tOireachtas, the Isle of Man may now be described as Tynwald. Dublin is no longer Dublin - it's Dublin City Council. Saint Petersburg is no longer Saint Petersburg, it's the "Legislative Assembly of Saint Petersburg". After all, a council is an assembly!! _Cowag 11:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

In 1975, in which county would you have found the town of Oakham - Rutland or Leicestershire? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:33, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You would have found it in Leicestershire, that British county governed by Leicestershire County Council. You would not have found it in Leicestershire County Council. What you are saying Laurel makes no sense. Answer me this - what is the longest river in Meath County Council - answer: a stupid question because you can not have a geographic feature in a social construct. You may also want to take a look at these: CSO 2011
In its background report the CSO mentions that "...the country is divided into 29 Counties and five Cities. In Dublin, four areas are identified separately, i.e. Dublin City and the three Administrative Counties of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin. Outside Dublin there are 26 administrative counties (North Tipperary and South Tipperary are separate counties for administrative purposes) and four Cities, i.e. Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway" (report here)
Welfare.ie (2011) also mentions administrative counties as well as services in County Meath, County Laois, etc.
Environ.ie (2008), the Department responsible for local government, even mentions County Donegal, and not Donegal County Council when referring to a location within the county, as it does with County Meath (2011), and reserves usage of X Co. Co. for the organisation responsible for the administration of County X. It NEVER uses X Co. Co. to refer to the history, culture, sporting traditions, people, demographics, sociology or geography of a county.  _Cowag 11:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. In 1975, the town of Oakham was in the county of Leicestershire. You are also incorrect. It was still in the traditional county of Rutland. It was in both, when you use different definitions. If the question is, "In which county for the current purposes of local government is Oakham located?", then the answer is Leicestershire. If the question is, "In which former county used for the purposes of local government prior to 1974 was Oakham located?", then the answer is Rutland. The same is true for Clonmel. If the question is, "In which county for the current purposes of local government is Clonmel located?", then the answer is South Tipperary. If the question is, "In which former county used for the purposes of local government prior to 1838 was Clonmel located?", then the answer is Tipperary. During each period, the county (whether Rutland or Leicestershire) was a county. During each period, the county (whether Tipperary or South Tipperary) was a county. The problem is to align the county to the correct period. That's why it's correct to speak of Tipperary in the past tense (..."is a former administrative county of Ireland.) and why it is correct to speak of South Tipperary in the present tense (..."is an administrative county in Ireland"). I have never said that Mayo CoCo is the county; I would say that Mayo CoCo has jurisdiction over the area formerly known as the judicial county of Mayo less Ballaghaderreen and Edmondstown EDs, plus part of the judicial county of Galway (Ballinchala, Owenbrin EDs) plus part of the judicial county of Sligo (Ardnaree North, Ardnaree South Rural, Ardnaree South Urban EDs).Is that your understanding of Mayo? Or would you wish to leave those electoral districts of Sligo in Sligo and those electoral districts of Galway in Galway? Going back to the Oakham analogy, where, today, in your opinion, is Ballinchala? Is it in Mayo or Galway? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

1) How does a council not constitute a geographical area? If they don't they how can they be represented on maps depicting boundaries etc.? 2) The county crests and county towns are still valid as they are still the crests and county towns of those former counties. The websites however i agree with. The govenrment type i agree with. 3) Northern Ireland is in a different country to the Republic. It doesn't suffer from the same problem as the Republic of Ireland, though NI county articles should state that for all intents and purposes they are former adminsitrative units.

Overall the ledes before Sarah777 instigated a new discussion to remove RoI unpiped were agreed to as a way of trying to solve the issue of former and modern administrative countries. But everything is trial and error and nothing is ever perfect.

On RA's proposal:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the 32 traditional counties of Ireland and one of the 26 traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

I prefer words above numbers, but otherwise go for it if you can get consensus for having RoI unpiped. Mabuska 21:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Laurel - Ballinchala is situated in County Mayo.(Mayo Library, MyHome.ie, Griffiths Valuation, National Archives of Ireland, Focal.ie). You have dodged pretty much every single point and question I have raised. I have provided references which state that counties such as Meath, Mayo, Monaghan, etc. are administrative counties. Can you please provide a reference which states otherwise? Until you answer the points I raised rather than simply argue with random "examples" and until you provide such a reference I will cease to discuss with you any further.

@ Mabuska - regarding 1) A council is not a geographic area. It administers a geographic area. It is the geographic area which is represented on maps, not the council itself. A council is a body of elected and unelected officials, representatives, employees, their responsibilities etc. and is entirely a social construct. A county is a geographic area over which responsibility for administration was formerly held by a count and now held, for the most part, by councils or other such bodies. 2) For the most part, county crests in the RoI were granted to the council and not the county. In these cases we can not use the crests to depict anything other than the county council.

As a final note, with the current wording we are stating that there are more types of administrative unit in Ireland than actually exists. For example, we are stating that "South Tipperary...is an administrative county in Ireland... South Tipperary County Council oversees the county as an independent local government area". Other counties don't get this treatment - for these counties it is stated that the administrative county does not exist and that the County Council is the local government area. There is a serious contradiction here considering Meath Co. Co. is legally equal to STipp Co. Co. I understand boundaries change, but that does not mean, for example, that HM Government is any less or more important than the government of San Marino - SM's boundaries have not changed since inception, whereas the UK's boundaries have. In other words, we are stating that, for administrative purposes, there are 25 county councils (Meath Co. Co., Mayo Co. Co., etc.), 5 administrative counties (South Tipperary, North Tipperary, Fingal, South Dublin, DLR) and 5 cities (Dublin, Waterford, Limerick, Cork, Galway). In reality however there are 30 county councils administering 30 administrative counties and 5 city councils administering 5 cities.  _Cowag 06:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There are 30 administrative counties in Ireland? I thought it was your position that there were 32 in Ireland and just 26 in the Republic? Which is it? Anyway, your maths is a bit off - it's 24 + 2 + 3 = 29 (not 30). If you're attempting to say that there are 29 local government bodies in Ireland with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the county), then I would agree. I also agree that there are 5 local government bodies in Ireland called city councils with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the city). Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages has decreed that only 24 of these areas is entitled to call themselves a county in the article title. The remaining 2 + 3 must get by without the prefix of "County" in their article name. While entities that have been abolished (e.g. County Dublin) are allowed to retain the prefix, other entities (e.g. Fingal) on the same legal standing as the other 24, are not allowed to use the prefix. Does this seem right or just to you? Where's the consistency? If the territory of Meath is a county in virtue of the Local Government Act and the territory of Fingal is also a county by the same act, then why is Meath allowed the prefix while Fingal is not? To deny Fingal the prefix is to deny that it is a county. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Addition is not my strong point! I have throughout the discussion adhered to the position that there are 32 traditional counties in Ireland (26 in RoI) and 29 administrative counties in RoI which are also supplemented with 5 cities. You said "If you're attempting to say that there are 29 local government bodies in Ireland with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the county), then I would agree. I also agree that there are 5 local government bodies in Ireland called city councils with jurisdiction over their respective areas (a.k.a. the city)." - well that is exactly what I was saying. But naming is a separate issue. Whether or not Fingal is known as Fingal, Co. Fingal, or Fingal Co. is a naming issue that is governed by WP:COMMONNAME. As far as I know, no one refers to it as County Fingal. It is simply Fingal. But that is common naming and in no way reflects the legal status of the county. Sure we have an article here called Republic of Ireland despite that entity's official name of Ireland, and France despite that entity's official name in English as the "French Republic". To deny Fingal the prefix is not, in my opinion, to deny that it is a county. Cumbria gets by quite well without a prefix, as does Sussex. But that issue is a separate, in my view, matter. _Cowag 21:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Laurel, Misplaced Pages is not the place for reasoning like the above. Doing so, we would very quickly say that 27 counties left the United Kingdom in 1922 and that there is no longer any such place as Country Down, County Fermanagh, etc.

Reliable sources say otherwise. Whether Dublin County Council — or Tipperary Country Council, or Armagh County Council, or any other such council — was abolished or not, reliable sources say that County Dublin, County Tipperary, County Armagh, etc. still exist as places — and that they are significant topics for Ireland. In fact, I would suggest that the primary significance of the counties of Ireland is today as places, regardless of their origins or original purpose, or the current arrangement of local government in Ireland, north and south.

You've had a fair run at this but your view is a fringe one at best (more likely, an an original view). The points you raise — about the origins and development of local government over time and that the 26/6 traditional "counties" of Ireland are no longer congruent with local government in Ireland — are important. They need to to be stated. But they need to be stated with due weight to reliable sources. --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Straw poll

There seems to be fairly broad support for the suggestion above on how to re-organsise county-related articles: That proposal is that there would be:

• one set of 32 articles dealing solely with the traditional 32 counties
• one set dealing solely with the county councils and city councils in ROI
• one set dealing solely with the district councils in NI

The introduction to the set of 32 traditional county articles would be changed (as appropriate per article) so something like the following:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the thirty traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

Cities would presumable be handled similarly. --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support --RA (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support ~Asarlaí 22:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - this would leave substantial territorial divisions such as Fingal, STipp, etc. out though. We would obviously have articles about the county and city councils in the RoI and another set dealing with the district councils in NI. I would suggest we have the following:
• Newsflash The articles for the 3 sets above already exist. Plus it's missing a whole set - articles dealing with the non traditional counties (e.g. Fingal) Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes they alredy exist, but currently the 32 county articles deal with both the traditional counties and the county councils. ~Asarlaí 08:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

My own suggestion

Obviously the wording can be tweaked in these, but here are what I would suggest:

• Traditional counties with boundaries coterminous with those of administrative counties (19 in total - if my maths is correct):

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland, and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Meath County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

• Traditional counties no longer used in any capacity for administrative purposes (2 - Co. Dublin, Co. Tipperary):

County Dublin (Irish: Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland, and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... For local government purposes the county is divided into three administrative counties (Fingal, South Dublin, and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown) and Dublin City.

• Traditional counties where the succeeding county council is still responsible for the majority of the traditional county (Co. Galway, Co. Limerick, Co. Waterford, Co. Cork):

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

• Purely administrative counties (NTipp, STipp, Fingal, SDublin, DLR):

Fingal (Irish: Fine Gall) is one of the twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland, one of the three such counties formed from the former County Dublin in 1994.... ... Fingal County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

• Not a bad start. Don't have time to tweak it just now. But I think that the overall Counties of Ireland needs to make this fourfold division explicit. Each of the individual county articles also needs to make it explicit (perhaps in the lead of the History section of each article). Just to be technical, there are no administrative counties in Ireland. A synonym will have to be found for it to distinguish them from the 1898 entities that were explicitly devised as such (but which are now all abolished). (e.g. "non traditional", "modern") Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "there are no administrative counties in Ireland" - perhaps we should inform the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Department of Social Protection and the Central Statistics Office then! If indeed this is the case then perhaps we could amend "is an administrative county" to "is a county council area"? As I already stated we can not say it is the council, but we can say it is a "council area". What do you think?  _Cowag 09:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Support) Sounds good. For clarity though, how about something like: "... from the former County Dublin in 1994 ..." → "... from the former administrative country of County Dublin in 1994 ..." Laurel suggestions are good too. Personally, I don't mind "administrative counties" but there are plenty of alternatives e.g. "local authority counties". --RA (talk) 09:44, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Another point of view

I don't want to simply add my vote or my comment to the above as I think the whole basis for this discussion is wrong. When this was first discussed in June 2010 I voted to remove the word "traditional", and at the time the majority agreed with that. In the meantime it seems not only to have got consensus among this little group but to have become a fetish. Laurel Lodged is right about one thing: there are no "administrative counties" in Ireland. Neither are there "traditional counties". You can search all day and you won't find a single reliable source that says unambiguously that such things exist. The Republic has 26 counties, period. Other administrative areas have been created that have a County Council, a County Enterprise Board etc., but no statute, statutory instrument or bye-law ever said "these are counties". Therefore we cannot say that on Misplaced Pages. It fails WP:V. The intro to county articles should state the verifiable fact: it is one of the 32 counties of Ireland. This should be followed by "It is served by X County Council" or "It is served by two (or three) local authorities:..." Having two separate articles for the "traditional" county of, say, Wicklow and the "administrative" county of Wicklow makes no sense. There is only one County Wicklow. Having separate articles for Tipperary, Tipperary North and Tipperary South makes some sense, but to me it is still overkill. Scolaire (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The terms traditional and administrative are Misplaced Pages neologisms which violate the stricture against original research. — O'Dea (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree with both of you. Both terms are in use by the government and various state agencies as well as by the population in general. I've provided a list below outlining use of "administrative county". If you want I will find examples of "traditional county" such as this one by the Department of the Environment. I'll deal with Scolaire's comment in two parts - the first is directed at him because of one of his concerns, the second addresses the point brought up by the two of you:

• First off, no one is suggesting we would have one article for the administrative county of Wicklow and one for the traditional county of Wicklow. As I stated above, we would have one single article dealing with those counties whose boundaries are coterminous with the current administrative entity defined for local government purposes. That means one single article for Wicklow, one for Meath, one for Mayo, etc. But we would have 5 for Dublin - one traditional Co. Dublin (all of Fingal, DLR, SDublin and city), one for the city, and 3 for each of the other entities), 3 for Tipperary (Co. Tipp as well as NTipp and STipp), etc.
• Secondly, I already provided references for the usage of the term "administrative county" unless somehow providing references is now considered Original Research?!? For clarity, the references are here: Dept. Of Social Protection and the CSO. Other references could also be used such as: the National Botanic Gardens (1980), HSE (2011), CSO report hosted on RTÉ (2011), Logainm.ie (2009), CSO hosted on galwaycity.ie (2011), European Election Database (2011), Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co. Co. (2007), UCD Report on alcohol which mentions the administrative counties, StatCentral.ie (2007), CSO (again), another CSO, S.I. No. 214/2001, S.I. No. 106/1994, S.I. No. 561 of 2009, Louth County Council, Clare County Council, Sligo County Council, Wexford County Council. And they are just a few examples. How then is it original research?  _Cowag 11:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly original research anyways as what was the point of the county's on the first place? Administration. What do county councils do? Administrate. We aren't creating neologisms, we are simply stating what are former administrative or modern adminsitrative counties which is not OR.

This issue is highly emotive for some editors who adhere to the traditional sense of there only being "thirty-two" counties ever, but it is an issue that's arisen due to the fact the Republic has changed the administration of the area the counties made up. The use of "traditional" was agreed upon instead of "historical" to appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke by making it sound like the counties didn't exist at all anymore to any degree (yes they still do outside of government to tradtionalists and the GAA etc.).

The above suggestions i don't think are bad. A tweak or two maybe i don't know, but if it helps settle this endlessly recurring issue then by all means. Mabuska 11:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Also disagree with both of you. The terms traditional and administrative are not Misplaced Pages neologisms. The are supportedable by reliable sources.

Mac Tíre's refenence to the logainm.ie (© Rialtas na hÉireann 2009) is quite definitive: "Administrative counties: Subdivisions of pre-established counties which were formed for administrative purposes in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. / Counties: Administrative units larger than baronies and originally established by the British administration in Ireland between the twelfth and the seventeenth centuries. Some of these were subsequently subdivided into smaller administrative county units."

For "traditional counties", this phrasing is supported by referecnes such as the following:

"The term 'All-Irish' is in common use for many cultural, sports, and other purposes, and many events, competitions, and organizations are 'All-Irish', that is, they cover the entire area of the 32 traditional counties of the island and not just the Republic of Ireland." World and Its Peoples, 2010

"The twenty-six traditional counties of Eire and the six traditional counties of Northern Ireland are used as the standard Irish geographical designations." - Robert A. Faleer, Church Woodwork in the British Isles, 1100-1535, 2009

Also has, Mabuska, says this is hardly original research. "Administrative" and "traditional" are merely adjectives, which can be useful to us when differentiating between 26/6 and 29/0. (And that's before we even talk about the cities: how can Cork be the principal city of County Cork, when it purportedly has not been in County Cork since the late 19th century?) --RA (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected on the existence of the term "administrative county" - although MacTire's links refer variously to 1898 counties and 21st-century counties. I am less convinced about the common use of "traditional counties". At any rate I must tone down my more extreme remarks like "we cannot say that on Misplaced Pages." Nevertheless, I still maintain that the primary use of "county" in modern parlance, both in ordinary life and in books and news media, is not the administrative division. There are signs on the roads saying "Welcome to County Tipperary"; tourist organisations try to attract visitors to County Tipperary; people like Mary Hanafin are said to be from Tipperary; a letter addressed to Clonmel, County Tipperary will be delivered without fuss, as will a letter addressed to Malahide, County Dublin or Kells, County Antrim; and yes, Tipperary have an excellent hurling team. I take exception to the snide remark that counties exist "to tradtionalists and the GAA etc" as though the GAA was some sort of fringe organisation or cult (not to mention "appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke"). Counties exist. They are part of everybody's life in Ireland.

Mabuska has put his finger on the problem: the issue is highly emotive for some editors, but not for "traditionalists" who want to kid themselves "there were only 32 counties ever". All of the compromising and tweaking and general mucking-up of the lead sections of county articles in the Republic has been to deal with a non-existant issue: that any occurence of the words "32" and "counties" together represents an irredentist claim on Northern Ireland. I believe it's time we put that whole thing to bed, and started editing the lead sections of county articles to reflect real life again.

In answer ro RA's question, "how can Cork be the principal city of County Cork, when it purportedly has not been in County Cork since the late 19th century?" Good question, yet most of the time, if you're filling out a form on the internet and you give Cork as the town, you'll be asked what county. If you give Dublin as the town, you'll be asked to choose the county from a drop-down list, which does not include Fingal, South County Dublin or Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown. Real life, see? Scolaire (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's an example: Two-Mile Borris was in the news recently because of proposals to build a casino. I don't know which "administrative county" it is in. How many news articles, magazine features or web pages dealing with the casino proposals will tell me which, compared with the thousands that tell me it is in County Tipperary? Scolaire (talk) 07:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

"All of the compromising and tweaking and general mucking-up of the lead sections of county articles in the Republic has been to deal with a non-existant issue: that any occurence of the words "32" and "counties" together represents an irredentist claim on Northern Ireland. I believe it's time we put that whole thing to bed, and started editing the lead sections of county articles to reflect real life again."

Hardly Scolaire we where involved in the original lede consensus that adopted the use of thirty-two counties for all county articles, which hasn't been raised as a problem since until Sarah777 wanted to remove RoI unpiped from the RoI county ledes - the only way to do so was to remove the thirty-two counties stuff as when mentioning the island of Ireland and the state we HAVE to use RoI unpiped. Dropping the thirty-two counties bit meant RoI had to be piped according to the IMoS. In fact maybe you have't noticed but if it was really as issue for those, to coin a term, anti-irredentists, then how come the thirty-two counties bit is still in the NI county articles after all this time? Wouldn't those six articles be the prime target for its removal? So i'd lay the blame on Sarah777 for it and not those who think it represented irredentist claims on Northern Ireland.

""to tradtionalists and the GAA etc" as though the GAA was some sort of fringe organisation or cult (not to mention "appease those that didn't want to have their hearts broke"). Counties exist. They are part of everybody's life in Ireland."

Now your reading too much into it. Nowhere does it imply the GAA is a fringe organisation or cult. No-one is denying counties exist, hence why we choose the term traditional over historical - there is a big difference. One implies it no longer exists, the other that it still does. Mabuska 15:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in "laying the blame" on anyone. And I don't accept that doing anything on Misplaced Pages means you "HAVE" to do something else. I'm only interested in having the intro to articles give information that's relevant to the real world instead of quasi-legal rubbish. The intro to County Kildare currently says "County Kildare is a former administrative county of Ireland." A former administrative county! Scolaire (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly misleading seeing as the traditional counties are no longer used as an administrative units by the government - that's real world. Mabuska 10:36, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

An alternative

As an alternative, what if we just stopped playing the numbers game altogether, and said "Kildare is a ] in ]"? It's concise, it's verifiable, it's politically neutral, and it's free of bureaucratic terminology. Scolaire (talk) 21:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds pretty perfect to me! Fmph (talk) 08:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Just one line? Isn't that a bit bare? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I like "Kildare is one of the 32 counties of Ireland." Others don't. If it's a choice between piling on adjectives or stripping it to a bare six words, then I'll go for bare. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe this is the best solution all round. --HighKing (talk) 10:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

So you believe "Fingal is a ] in ]" is fine?  _Cowag 10:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Obviously not! Leave Fingal as it is. The five "new" administrative areas are going to be treated differently anyway. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well legally speaking it is a county. Irrespective of opinion or popular definitions, you can't leave information out simply to satisfy a 32-county definition of what is a county. Fingal is a county. It may not be a county in the traditional sense, but it is still a county. Having a simplistic definition such as "County X is a county" ignores the distinction between those current administrative counties and those counties recognised as popular definitions of what is a county.  _Cowag 11:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually yes. "Fingal is a ] in ]" is fine. --HighKing (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But would that not be confusing to those who don't know? Like suggesting "Fingal is a county..." while also suggesting that "County Dublin is a county..." - we would be putting them on a par despite the fact they are completely different things.  _Cowag 13:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No more or less confusing that using "traditional county" and "administrative county" in the lede. The problem we've encountered is that, from a WP:COMMONNAME POV, the vast majority of people only really think about the "traditional" counties. The administrative areas, also called counties, are seen as different. I believe the best solution is for a very simple lede, and do the explaining within the article. --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That is a bit too bare and ambiguous. Counties (or their equivalents) to anyone outside of Ireland are administrative divisions of a country - implying that they are still being used as administrative units when in fact they aren't. How about stating "is a traditional county"? That'd help a bit and as MacTire showed, is well sourced. Mabuska 10:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Why suggest to me the very thing I'm objecting to? Counties of Ireland to anyone outside Ireland is where their grandparents came from, or where The Quiet Man was made. Try and leave the "my way or the highway" attitude behind and work towards a solution that will suit all sides. Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem with saying "is a traditional county" is the vagueness or ambiguity of the phrase. To the newly arrived, this statement would raise an unanswered question, "What is a traditional county? Is it a relatively undeveloped place or something, or somewhere where traditions are unusually strong?" — O'Dea (talk) 11:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe that it is a traditional county in the same sense as something that is traditional, like England and France are traditional enemies etc.

"Try and leave the "my way or the highway" attitude behind and work towards a solution that will suit all sides." - what my way or the highway attitude? Also a solution that will suit yours and O'Deas side? So how do we take into the account the fact Fingal is a modern county in the sense of it whilst County Dublin is not administrative wise? Just exaplain it in the article itself? Mabuska 10:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Explain it in the article itself? Careful, Mabuska, that is a radical idea! ;-) Scolaire (talk) 10:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

"...we would be putting them on a par despite the fact they are completely different things." How many times must this be explained? It's not that difficult. They are on a par. They are the same thing. The difference between them is temporal not functional. Both perform (or used to perform) the same thing - administration (some combination of judicial, financial and civil administration). Some contain entities that continue to perform this function (e.g. county councils), others contain entities that no longer do so but that used to do so (e.g. Grand Juries, County Azzises). Some are popularly capitalised (e.g. County X), others do not enjoy such popular favour (e.g. Fingal). Each is still a county. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

By saying they are not on a par what I meant was the following: legally, Fingal is a county, while Co. Dublin is not. Fingal was established by the Irish authorities, Co. Dublin was not. Co. Dublin enjoys popular cultural, sporting, and self-identification status (people from Blanchardstown, Skerries, etc. rarely say they are from Fingal, they usually say they are from Co. Dublin), while Fingal does not. To state they are counties is true, and perfectly fine. But without clarification in the first few lines we are leading the reader to believe both entities are current geo-political administrative divisions. After all, most countries that use counties as divisions do not attribute any cultural or self-identifying status to those areas. In most countries they are simply political divisions; in Ireland, and to a lesser extent England, counties are much more than political administrative divisions, and by leaving out the distinctions between them we are misleading the reader, who, to be quite honest, generally tends to read only the first few lines of an article.  _Cowag 06:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

These things can be worked around. For instance, County Dublin could say "Dublin is a county in Ireland", with discussion of its division into four local government areas in the body of the article; Fingal could say "Fingal is a county in Ireland. It is one of three administrative counties into which County Dublin was divided in 1994", with further details in the body of the article. I take your point about readers only reading the first few lines, but it is unwise, not to say impossible, to try to condense a 16k article into a couple of lines. Remember, KISS. --Scolaire (talk) 07:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggested tweak of above: "Fingal is a county in Ireland. It is one of three smaller counties into which County Dublin was divided in 1994". — O'Dea (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

County intros continued

Hi, Laurel Lodge directed me to this discussion from County Louth, which I had amended unaware of this discussion because I find the introductory sentence weird and inaccurate. It read: 'County Louth is a former administrative county in Ireland'. The fact is that Louth is still a county, even though the term 'administrative county' no longer has any legal meaning. It would make sense to refer to County Dublin as a former administrative county, but to refer to Louth as such is misleading, suggesting that it has in some way lost its county status. In fact, Section 2(1) of the Local Government Act, 2001 - the section of the Act that provides definitions - clearly states that the administrative area of a county council is a county. Furthermore, Section 10 (4) (a) provides that:

The boundaries of a county referred to in subsection (2) are the boundaries of the corresponding county as existing immediately before the establishment day and, for that purpose, the corresponding counties to Tipperary North Riding and Tipperary South Riding shall be North Tipperary and South Tipperary, respectively.

It seems quite clear from the above that the correct term for an administrative area such as Louth, insofar as local government law is concerned, is 'county'. I would therefore strongly urge that Scoláire's proposal at the beginning of this section be adopted, at least for counties such as Louth where what I see is referred to as the 'traditional county' in Misplaced Pages terminology is coterminous with the legal county. For cases such as Dublin and Tipperary, separate articles for the 'traditional county' and the administrative county obviously make sense. For cases such as Cork, I think one article would be sufficient, and should start with something like:

Cork is a county in Ireland. Cork city is not part of the administrative county, but is treated as part of the county for sporting and many other purposes.

Obviously this could be fine-tuned, but I think it would be better than the current version based on the (not very) apparent consensus previously reached in this discussion:

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is a former administrative county of Ireland. There are two local authority administrative areas that now cover the county, Cork County Council and Cork City Council and are part of the South-West Region.

This is downright misleading, as not only is Cork still an administrative county (in susbstance, although the term 'administrative county' no longer appears in the relevant statutes), but Cork City has never been part of the administrative county since the foundation of the modern Irish local government system in 1898. 86.177.92.214 (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that there is no justification for using "former". I don't think there was even an attempt at justification in all of the lengthy discussion above.

I don't know whether silence equals consent in this case, but beyond the somewhat plaintive "it's a bit bare" there has been no critical objection to my proposal for a short and common-sense intro to county articles. I'm going to change the four Dublin articles in line with the last suggested version. If they remain stable for a couple of days perhaps someone can edit the other county articles accordingly? Scolaire (talk) 10:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

"but beyond the somewhat plaintive "it's a bit bare"" - plaintive? I would say avoiding MacTire's very valid comments by just stating "These things can be worked around." is more plaintive. You focus on County Dublin which is an easy issue to deal with but don't provide a solution for the rest. We could and should describe the status of the county in the article itself, but one word such as "traditional" (which the thirty-two counties are whether you agree or not) is hardly overloading the lede, and does set those counties into context. Mabuska 11:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

"Traditional" counties is an outdated concept held onto by people stuck in the past or unwittingly ignorant of the modern-day situation or hold onto romantic notions. Now who said that, I wonder? Scolaire (talk) 17:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I realize this is a slightly complicated matter, particularly the relationship between 'traditional' and 'administrative' counties, but let us at least get rid of the quite misleading formulation 'former administrative county' which has been applied en masse to articles describing currently existing counties, and the convoluted associated phrases about administrative areas. My impression is that these reflect a misunderstanding of the Local Government Act, 2001. These particular issues don't relate to the Northern Ireland counties, for which I imagine it should be easy enough to find a formula describing them as 'traditional counties'. Of the counties of the Republic of Ireland, by my reckoning, all except the Dublin counties and County Galway have remained in existence since 1898 with only minor boundary changes, and their boundaries are the same as those of the traditional counties except for the exclusion of county boroughs/cities and the existence of two administrative counties in Tipperary.

Therefore, for the majority of counties such as Louth, Mayo, Meath, I see no reason why 'X is a county in Ireland' shouldn't be quite accurate - the 'traditional' and 'administrative' counties are essentially identical. For North and South Tipperary as well as the three Dublin counties, Scoláire's solution seems unproblematic.

For the counties where the administrative county excludes a city area (Galway, Cork, Limerick, Waterford) I would suggest, as I mentioned above, 'Galway is a county in Ireland' and a sentence either immediately following, or perhaps better after basic geographical information such as location, province and region, to the effect that 'County Galway is administered by Galway County Council. While County Galway is often taken to include Galway City, for example in sporting contexts, the city is not part of the legally defined county of Galway and is administered separately by Galway City Council.' It would then be desirable to specify whether statistical information such as population, area etc cover the entire traditional county or solely the administrative county (or provide both sets of figures). 109.158.149.4 (talk (previously User talk:86.177.92.214 - editing from a dynamic IP address)) 12:23, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Or alternatively, for Galway: 'Galway is a county in Ireland... Until the establishment of a county borough in Galway city in 1986, Galway County Council administered the entire historic county including Galway city. Since 1986, Galway city no longer forms part of the admnistrative county and is administered separately by Galway City Council. However, the entire historic county is still often referred to as County Galway and represented as such by sporting teams.' I don't know whether prior to 1898 the remaining cities of Dublin, Limerick, etc formed part of the eponymous counties, but the Misplaced Pages page on the Local_Government_(Ireland)_Act_1898 suggests that they were already separate entities termed 'judicial counties'. 109.158.149.4 (talk) 12:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Given that we are talking about the intro here, I don't see why there needs to be a whole rigmarole about the administrative status of a city in a county article. The County Galway intro only needs to say "Galway is a county...", the Galway article only needs to say "Galway is a city..." These convoluted sentences always result when people try to pack the whole of one section of the article into a single sentence in the lead. It's the same with "administrative counties", "traditional counties", "Local Government Act 1898" etc. All of the articles, county and city, have much more to them (or if they don't they ought to have!) than just which council is responsible for them. Their leads shouldn't make them sound like articles about local government. Scolaire (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I too have been bold, and have amended the introduction to County Cork. Hopefully this will be considered helpful. Scoláire, I do have to kind of disagree with you - as counties are essentially geographical and administrative entities, very basic geographical and administrative information very definitely does belong in the introductory paragraph. Neither do I think that mentioning the status of the city and whether it is to be viewed as part of the county or not is excessive - I think we will be able to find a way of doing so without too much rigmarole, and the benefit is that then the introduction makes it precisely clear what the subject of the article is - in the case of Cork, a county which depending on the purposes for which it is being discussed, may or may not be taken to include Cork city. I think it's actually quite important for the introduction to an article about a geographical and administrative territory to make it clear what it comprises, even if that means that we admit that it has two somewhat different meanings.

If you are suggesting that the introduction should simply be one line saying 'County X is a county of Ireland', then I would have to agree that this is disproportionately skimpy given that some of these are reasonably well-developed articles. Here is what I have put in the intro for County Cork, in case anyone wants to comment here. Hopefully ye will think it is a useful step forward that can be worked on:

County Cork (Template:Lang-ga) is a county of Ireland. It is located on the south coast of Ireland, in the province of Munster, and borders counties Kerry to the west, Limerick to the north, Tipperary to the north-east, and Waterford to the east. It was named after the city of Cork (Template:Lang-gle). There are large Irish-speaking areas in the west of the county. The county is administered by Cork County Council, and is part of the South-West Region. Cork city does not form part of the county under Irish local government law, and is administered separately by Cork City Council. However, for purposes other than local government, such as the formation of sporting teams, County Cork may also be taken to include both city and county. Cork is Ireland's largest county by area and had a population of 399,216 in 2011 (518,218 if Cork city is included).

Some of the geographical information is repeated in the first following paragraph, but I don't think this is any harm - the nature of an introduction is that it briefly recapitulates the most important elements from the main text, and in any case in reasonabl long articles such as these it will be separated from them by the table of contents as well. Any views on this new intro? 109.158.149.4 (talk) 14:29, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the contributions above from 86.177.92.214/109.158.149.4 really make sense; the "former administrative county" formulation does not. Just take a look at the articles for English or American counties. However, I would opt for a shorter lead and feel that Scoláire should go ahead with his changing the Dublin articles. Hohenloh 14:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Hohenloh. In support of my points above, may I point out another 'plaintive comment', by User:Lozleader on Talk:County_Cork, who says that 'The article seems to contain a lot of information pertaining to the city, and the lead gives the population figure for the county + city at the same time giving the impression that the "administrative" and "traditional" counties are identical, which they aren't... if the article is going to deal with two different things then it needs to be clear when we are talking about which'. I think this potential confusion for readers is a very strong argument for clarifying the matter in the intro. Of course, this problem only applies to Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. For County Dublin and County Tipperary and the associated administrative counties, we already have separate articles for the traditional and administrative counties, which makes sense in these cases, but would surely be excessive for Cork etc. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC) (formerly 86.177.92.214/109.158.149.4).

Lozleader's concerns could have been addressed in the article proper. Indeed, the first section of the article is "Geography and political subdivisions". There is no reason I can see why all the technicalities should have to be pointed out in what is only a brief lead. I honestly think this edit is total overkill. If a proper-sized lead is to be written, it should summarise every section of the article - geography, history, demographics etc. - instead of dumping a whole lot of technical stuff that belongs in the article itself.

By the way, congratulations on becoming a registered user. Scolaire (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the congratulations! I think this version is quite concise. It is important that the introduction makes it clear what the article is actually about, and unfortunately in the cases of County Cork etc, the topic of the article undeniably has two different meanings, both of which are perfectly valid. This is probably not the case for most Misplaced Pages articles, not that I have carried out any detailed research on the issue. So how to make this clear and avoid confusion for readers? If not in the introduction, it should at least go in the first paragraph after. Otherwise, when you start giving information such as area, population, etc, it will not be clear what they are referring to. Also, I'm not trying to be smart here, as I realize it wasn't you that put this information into the lead of South Dublin, but that intro includes the information that 'The heraldic crest for South Dublin reads reads "This We Hold In Trust" in both English and Irish, while incorporating elements relating to the history, geography and present day infrastructure of the area.' Surely this is less relevant to South Dublin than the question of whether or not Cork City is part of County Cork is to County Cork? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You say, "if not in the introduction, it should at least go in the first paragraph after." I also said it should go in the first paragraph after. So do you want to move it there or will I?

And I absolutely agree with you about extraneous stuff in the South Dublin intro. I think you'll find that that bit went in years ago, in the dark ages, when standards were different. It could and should be zapped. Scolaire (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I have played around a bit more with County Cork - removed the administrative details from the intro and combined it with the paragraph much further down on the topic to make a new first paragraph. Can you have a look and see what you think? I'm not saying its ideal but I think it is an improvement on the previous situation.

Unfortunately I think even now it is still slightly confusing, as there's no way around the fact that 'county' can and does mean two different things. By the way, from my own Jackeen perspective, anyone who ever talked about County Dublin was specifically referring to the parts that were outside the city, so I don't think the use of 'county' in this sense is confined to purely local government issues. However, much of the blame undoubtedly devolves upon the Department of the Environment, who abolished the useful term 'administrative county' in the Local Government Act 2001. Using that term in the article would perhaps make things clearer, but then we would have to also explain what we meant by it, which would in turn add a further complexity. Perhaps we are going to have to be content with this being slightly fuzzy. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't really see why it needs to be confusing, though. There aren't that many such facts in the article. If each time there is a statistic it says "the n was x, not including Cork city" or "the n was y for city and county together" it should be crystal clear without being intrusive. Otherwise, anything in the county article is talking about the county. It's not as though we're saying "County Cork's most famous building is the church tower of Shandon." I'm very happy with the intro, by the way. It's far better in every respect than what was there yesterday. Scolaire (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's an improvement. Being a minimalist, I would just remove figures from the lead, ie, the population and year- the following paragraph also has population figures - but would still mention that it's the largest county. I'd avoid using "administrative counties", as they no longer exist. Hohenloh 16:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I meant we should treat the figures that way wherever they occur in the article. I have no feelings either way on whether the figures are in the lead. Scolaire (talk) 17:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Scoláire - well, among several references to Cork city is the line that it is the largest city in the county. I don't see any harm in including that, although it could equally be excluded for consistency if you think that is the correct approach. Hohenloh - I don't have any strong feelings about including the population figure, though on balance I would leave it in as useful top-line information, and I'm not sure that the presence of the 'three large Gaeltacht areas' is necessary in the intro either (leaving aside the slight problems that they are not that large and there are only two of them). ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

As long as the population figure states whether it includes the city or not ;-)

"The largest city in the county" is a bit strange. The largest of how many cities? County Dublin simply says "The county contains the city of Dublin." Whether it "contains" it as an integral part or "contains" it as an enclave would be hair-splitting. As I say, there is no need for confusion if the thing is written sensibly. Scolaire (talk) 17:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

In directing the newbie IP to this discussion, it was my intention that he would join the discussion and assist in gaining a consensus. Instead he has made unilateral changes and sought retrospective forgiveness. This was my modus until people like Scolaire got hissy fits about it. So is this now permission for me to do likewise? Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

He simply added in what had become the new consensus anyway, namely, X is a county in Ireland simple intro and do all the explaining about 1898 act, 2001 act, administrative areas coveredetc, in the meat of the article. I hope that question is a joke, because as an experienced editor, you would have learned from your past mistakes not seek permission to repeat them. Snappy (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There was a consensus? Did I miss the vote? How did it go? And no, it was not a joke, more an ironic comment on the fact that there's one law for a newbie and another for LL. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there was/is a consensus emerging, no voting as wikipedia is not a democracy, and poor you, just wallow in your own self pity. Snappy (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It is not true to say that there is a consensus, either real or emergent. If there was, you could state in one sentence. Go ahead, try making that 1 line sentence that nobody contradicts. And if you cannot, then you'd have to agree that you're in favour of two rules - one for newbie and one for LLLaurel Lodged (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Don't tell me what I'm in favour of, just ask me and I'll tell you. I'm in favour of the proposal outlined below by RA. Snappy (talk) 20:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Getting real

"Instead he has made unilateral changes and sought retrospective forgiveness." Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is this conversation still going on? Above Mabuska (sorry to pick your comment out, Mabuska) wrote that:

"It's hardly misleading seeing as the traditional counties are no longer used as an administrative units by the government - that's real world."

Only thing is that County Kildate is currently used as an administrative unit by the government. It is the adminstrative area of Kildare County Council. What's more, County Kildare is also used as a postal address. It is also a place used for cultural purposes, such as Gaelic games and soccer. We have people (alive today) who come from County Kildare.

That's real world. So can we please get real and agree on a wording to fix the situation, which everyone with a lick of sense can see is a disaster? So, below is MacTire proposal from above, which was broadly acceptable to everyone. I suggest we either adopt it or suggest specific changes to the text.

• Traditional counties with boundaries coterminous (or near co-terminous) with those of administrative counties (19):

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Meath County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

• Traditional counties no longer used in any capacity for administrative purposes (2 - Co. Dublin, Co. Tipperary):

County Dublin (Irish: Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... For local government purposes the county is divided into three administrative counties (Fingal, South Dublin, and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown) and Dublin City.

• Traditional counties where the succeeding county council is still responsible for the majority of the traditional county but which contain a city for the purposes of local government (Co. Galway, Co. Limerick, Co. Waterford, Co. Cork):

County Cork (Irish: Contae Chorcaí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties of the Republic of Ireland. ... ... Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.

• Purely administrative counties (NTipp, STipp, Fingal, SDublin, DLR):

Fingal (Irish: Fine Gall) is one of the twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland one of the three such counties formed from the former County Dublin in 1994.... ... Fingal County Council is the local authority responsible for serving the county.

--RA (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree, let's go for this and stop this interminably bickering about "traditional" and what it means. We need to get rid of the factually incorrect "former administrative" crap as soon as possible, because its has been proven to be totally wrong. Snappy (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It's one thing to get agreement that something is wrong but it's quite another thing to get agreement on what is right. We have two solutions in front of us - this latest from RA (with which Snappy seems to agree) and the other one by the newbie (with which Snappy also seems to agree as he claims it has/had consensus and/or emergent consensus). It's very hard keeping up with all his agreements. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

No, not really. Snappy (talk) 20:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

(Edited by RA) Don't understand that comment ("Pot. Kettle. Black.") as I had already freely admitted that that was indeed my own modus operandi.

It (County Kildare) is not used as an administrative unit by the government. It is used as a cartographic unit. Not the same thing at all. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm in favour of moving this debate forward, not endless re-hashing. Snappy (talk) 20:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Eh, sorry. But what's with "MacTire's proposal from above, which was broadly acceptable to everyone"? I made a poposal which seems to have been acceptable to MacTire - since he made no further comment although he contributed to the bonfire discussion - and was considered a good proposal by Fmph, HighKing, O'Dea, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg and Hohenloh. Not to mention, as I pointed out this morning, that nobody has offered any sort of critical objection. You can't just turn the clock back five days and pretend that it didn't happen. County Dublin now looks just fine, without any 26, 29, 32, traditional, administrative or any other baggage. If we're going to get real, let's get real. Scolaire (talk) 21:00, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Between all of the text above, I didn't see that. Personally, I don't think the 26, 29, 32, traditional and administrative bits are "baggage". Rather, I think it clearly explains how both Fingal and County Dublin can both be introduced as being counties of Ireland in the present tense. MacTire's proposal, in my opinion, is more comprehensive and clear.

In any event, assuming your proposal is consensus, can we close this discussion for now? It cannot go on indefinitely without decision while there is agreement that a decision needs to be made on the articles that were changed. --RA (talk) 21:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please let's close it. And let's fix all the intros. The question can always be revisited down the line if somebody comes up with something really new. Scolaire (talk) 22:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I certainly think

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is a county of Ireland. ...

is far more succinct and preferable to

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland. ...

That's a lot of numbers of counties, which still manages to add relatively little, I would think, to the reader's knowledge about the county the article is actually about. If due to various sensitivities it is impossible to include one of the numbers of counties without including them all, I would suggest including none. I would think that this material too would be better in a first paragraph of the main body of the article, if it has to be included at all.

I think it is also undesirable to include the terms 'traditional county' and 'administrative county' in the introduction without explaining what they mean or linking to a page that obviously explains it (i.e. a page for the relevant term rather than the counties of Ireland page. I suggest something along the lines of my edits to County Cork might be considered in this regard?

Also, I think we do have to give proper place to the counties as legal administrative divisions (for those that are), as this is certainly one of the most significant things about them, and indeed their status as such was the origin of their existence. That means explicitly stating where the administrative county is not co-extensive with the traditional county, including in the cases of counties where the traditional county (arguably - how clear are we, for example, that 'county Dublin' is more often used to mean Dublin city and county as opposed to being used to mean Dublin county specifically excluding the city?) includes the territory of a city but the administrative county does not. For this reason I don't think the formulation

'Two local authorities are responsible for serving the county, Cork City Council is the local authority for Cork city with Cork County Council being responsible for all other parts of the county.'

is ideal. This is because if we are talking about local government, then for local government purposes, and I think since the passage of the Local Government Act 2001 for all legal purposes, County Cork is a legally constituted entity which simply does not include Cork city. I know this makes things complicated but again I'll stress the point that when we are talking about counties of Ireland one of the things we are talking about is the primary territorial divisions of the local government system, which are established as such by law and should in that context be accurately described/defined. That's not to say that this needs to be explained in the intro, I take fully on board the points made by Scoláire and Hohenloh in that regard.

In any case, thank you all for your courtesy, and apologies to Laurel Lodged for having taken advantage of your helpful reference to this page in order to make a whole raft of further suggestions!ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Never apologise to anybody for coming to the proper forum and speaking as an equal. If everybody was as collaborative as you, working on the pedia would be much easier and much more fun. Scolaire (talk) 07:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with ComhairleContaeThirnanOg that,

"County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is a county of Ireland. ...

is far more succinct and preferable to

County Meath (Irish: Contae na Mí) is one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland."

Speaking about how many counties there are in Ireland (island) and Ireland (republic) and whether they are traditional or administratve, and all the questions of what is a county and how many there are, and what kind of counties they are is not necessary within each county article, and can all be left to the one article that discusses those topics.

Attempting to crowbar some kind of consensus summation of the many aspects of counties into all of the county lead paragraphs is terribly messy. This is pure confusion: "...one of the thirty-two traditional counties of Ireland and one of the twenty-six traditional counties and twenty-nine administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland". How many? Ireland? Republic of Ireland? Bear in mind that most non-Irish readers will be thrown into perplexity by any ambiguity or subtlety because they are unfamiliar with this local matter.

ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's proposal is very clean and creatively avoids the question entirely of what to shovel into the lead paragraphs, and how it should be worded. "...a county of Ireland" is enough and leaves all the tricky material to a dedicated article. It is also a modular solution that avoids duplicated material throughout all the county articles by assigning all of it to one: Counties of Ireland. — O'Dea (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. It's Scoláire's suggestion, though, not mine. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 09:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Scolaire:

"Traditional" counties is an outdated concept held onto by people stuck in the past or unwittingly ignorant of the modern-day situation or hold onto romantic notions. Now who said that, I wonder?

Hah so you ignore the point i made in relation to your avoidance of MacTire's comments and go on an ad hominen attack on me. And what where you saying about people being colloborative, especially considering you originally tried to blame anti-irrendentists (to coin the term again) way above when it was Sarah777's fault the 32 etc. were removed? If you read the archives you'll notice how later i say that i was wrong in my original opinion on the word "traditional" and how it could be a solution (a well sourced solution going by the refs MacTire provided) in how to deal with the traditional counties. Obviously you would praise a new editor who virtually agrees with you.

What was in the articles and RA's solutions i must admit are a bit verbose in terms of "former administrative" and "thrity-two" etc. If we go simple as ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's suggestion, then it wouldn't be hard to stick in that one word "traditional" which is hardly inaccurate or misleading or overloading. Traditional is hardly tricky material and we don't have to go into numbers of each kind of county and how many in the RoI and the island. Mabuska 11:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, but how will the reader know that the word "traditional" has the meaning you said it has the second time, and not the meaning you said it has the first time? Seems to me it's very tricky material indeed! Scolaire (talk) 12:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Well you definately hold true to "Never apologise to anybody". My original take on the term "traditional" was wrong and i, unlike others, am not ashamed to admit where i am. Traditional actually makes perfect sense and why i was against it originally i don't know anymore.

To answer your question we could always wikilink the word traditional, and hey guess what that article opens with: A tradition is a ritual, belief or object passed down within a society, still maintained in the present, with origins in the past - absolutely perfect! Mabuska 19:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's last comments above and Scoláire's suggestions. Don't see the point of what appears to me as constant nitpicking (which was the reason I didn't participate in the previous discussion). Hohenloh 11:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Murder of Julia Martha Thomas featured article nomination

Murder of Julia Martha Thomas, about a notorious murder in London in 1879, is currently going through a review for featured article status (see Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Murder of Julia Martha Thomas/archive1). The article is covered by this WikiProject; if editors are interested, please feel free to leave comments on the featured article candidates talk page. Prioryman (talk) 13:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Ardfert, County Kerry

Hi there. Does anyone have information on the pre-Norman peoples of this area, centered around Ardfert, County Kerry? Who were the main peoples, and anything on the backgrounds of its coarb and erenagh clans? Fergananim (talk) 10:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Northern Ireland boxers nationality issue

A discussion has started over the issue of nationality in regards to Northern Irish boxers. A proposal has been made and all thoughts and opinions are sought. Mabuska 11:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Ulster Volunteer Force page move

BoutYeBigLad has moved the page "Ulster Volunteer Force" to "Ulster Volunteer Force (1966)" and the former is now a disambiguation page. Ther was no consensus for this move and so a discussion has been started at the article's talkpage. ~Asarlaí 17:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Describing the Lordship/Kingdom of Ireland and the forces that fought for it

Q1: Between 1171 and 1800, the Lordship of Ireland/Kingdom of Ireland was a territory that the English monarchy (later the British monarchy) claimd sovereignty over. Altho it had its own parliament from 1297 onward, the Lordship/Kingdom of Ireland was not a sovereign state. Would it be correct, therfor, to describe it as a dependent territory? If so, a dependent territory of England (later the Kingdom of Great Britain) or a dependent territory of the monarchy? If not, what would be the best way to describe it in modern terms? The current ledes don't do a good job of explaining this.

Q2: The Lordship/Kingdom of Ireland never had its own standing army. The Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland didn't hav standing armies until after the English Civil War. Insted, temporary armies wer created when needed and wer mostly composed of ordinary citizens. How, then, should we describe the forces that fought for the Lordship/Kingdom of Ireland? For example… in military conflict infoboxes, should the Nine Years' War be described as a war agenst the Kingdom of Ireland, agenst the Kingdom of England, agenst the "English army" (lowercase 'a') or agenst the "Forces of the Crown"?

~Asarlaí 23:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Just for clarity, why wasn't is a sovereign state if it had it's own parliament? --HighKing (talk) 01:28, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Depends on your particular take on the source of state power and, in parallel, its legitimacy. 'Talking shops' are one thing, but the exercise of control is sometimes something else. RashersTierney (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem with these sorts of description is that they use modern terminology i.e. less that 200 years old, to refer to medieval (in the case of the Lordship) or early modern (in the case of the Kingdom for the first 200 years or so) entities. The Kingdom of France or the Holy Roman Empire are never referred to as "sovereign states", and Bohemia is never referred to as a "dependent territory". Ireland should be described in whatever terms historians use for Ireland. I would suggest something along the lines of "The Lordship of Ireland refers to that part of Ireland that was under the rule of the ] between 1177 and 1541" and "The Kindom of Ireland refers to the country of Ireland in the period between the proclamation of Henry VIII as King of Ireland in 1542 and the Act of Union in 1800." As far as the Nine Years' war is concerned, to my mind the current infobox describes the English side better than any of the alternatives proposed here: it was the Kingdom of England and its government in Ireland. Scolaire (talk) 06:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

What makes a good local article?

I'm writing a blog post about what makes a good local article (or set of articles) on Misplaced Pages - in other words articles about a specific place, such as a town or village, and its features, people, etc.

What do you think we currently do well, or badly, in that regard. What do you, or would you, like to see, in such articles? What are the best examples?

Please feel free to prior discussion, if you know of any. Cheers, Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

You could try Tobermore. I've worked hard on it over the years to get it a B-rating and it has a lot of information, though whether it is any good to readers or not i dunno. Mabuska 22:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Current "administrative units" and the vice-counties of Ireland

In the article Vice-counties, which is currently being revised and expanded, there is a brief discussion and a table describing the relationship between the current "administrative units" (counties, unitary authorities, etc.) in Great Britain (=England, Wales and Scotland) and the vice-counties used for biological recording.

There should be something similar for Ireland, both the Republic and Northern Ireland, so that someone who knows only the modern "administrative units" (counties, districts, or whatever) can relate them to the vice-counties as set up by Praeger in 1901. Is anyone here able to add such a section? Peter coxhead (talk) 14:01, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of vice-counties before in my life so i wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to help. Mabuska 12:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Paramilitary "volunteers" / "members"

I just came across an issue at McGurk's Bar bombing where IRA members were described as 'volunteers'. I've changed this to say 'members' which I think is more NPOV, the word 'volunteers' implies tacit support and admiration. I move that all references to paramilitary 'volunteers' be changed to 'members'. Support? Oppose? Comments please... --Eamonnca1 18:31, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Is there evidence that those serving in the IRA were press ganged? If not, they were volunteers. It is also the name by which they themselves wish to be known. Oppose the motion. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Support. "Volunteer" is being used in the sense of a formal military rank, not in the sense implied by Laurel Lodged above. As such, it is being used to imply some kind of military legitimacy on an illegal paramilitary grouping. Mooretwin (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Support. To contrast with Laurel's comment, UVF members call themselves Volunteers but are they stated as such on Misplaced Pages? In regards to groups where their description is highly questionable and troublesome, such as for paramilitary organisations, it is better to go with a neutral term that doesn't portray and legitimise a groups designation of its members whe others would disagree, or terms that convey strong meanings or emotions such as "volunteer", "terrorist", "paramilitary", "freedom fighter" etc. Simply stating "member" avoids those issues, as quite simply they are all members of a group, voluntary or not and its not really arguable. Mabuska 22:17, 16 August 2011 (UTC),

Support Personally, I think "volunteer" is used frequently enough in connection with the IRA so as to lack special meaning. However, I can see the point and "member" is sufficient and neutral. --RA (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Support - What Laurel Lodge says about them joining voluntarily may be correct, but the term does have certain connotations. WP:EUPHEMISM says that some words may be "proper in many contexts also have euphemistic senses that should be avoided," and this is definitely one such context. By contrast the term "member" does not have any such connotations and is not a "value-laden label" per WP:LABEL. "Member" is accurate and sufficient and could not be interpreted as a euphemism. --Eamonnca1 00:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Support change to "member"; or, failing that, standardise all Northern Ireland paramilitaries, including loyalists that use the term, to "Volunteer" too. Using "Volunteer" for the IRAs only is weasel-y. I'd prefer member for all though—most paramilitary groups have special titles for their members, but by honouring them here it gives the impression of tacit support or sympathy on a supposedly neutral resource. JonChapple 06:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment I think that the term "volunteer" has a historical reason, as they claim to be related to the Irish Volunteers. I see it more as a term equal to soldier, Musketeer or Rifleman and not as a status. Night of the Big Wind _talk 10:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment - The UVF claim direct descent from the original UVF and designate its members as volunteers as well, however there is nothing to prevent an addition to the main IRA or UVF articles etc. that states that they call their members "volunteers" - with sources obviously - if it hasn't already been done Mabuska 12:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Support, as 'member' is un-questionably neutral. GoodDay (talk) 10:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Domer48 has re-added the word "volunteers" into McGurk's Bar bombing citing "consensus". Could someone direct him here? JonChapple 15:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose PER (Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-02 IRA 'Volunteer' usage), detailed discussion and consensus on ] talk page and supported by a referenced and sourced article on the ] Article. While consensus can change, this straw poll conducted by and editor oblivious to these previous discussions is not going to do it.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Although with all respect that's a five year old discussion. Are those editors still even around? --Eamonnca1 17:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Makes no difference, unless the arguments have changed and in this case no! The arguments in the previous were at least based on some informed opinion not to mention references. This ill informed straw poll is no substitute for informed discussion.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Let's see you give us an informed opinion and sources then. Nobody's stopping you. --Eamonnca1 18:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you may have to wait a while Eamonnca1. Mabuska 23:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Those links are broken. And you've still not explained why you believe republicans have some kind of a monopoly on "volunteer" when unionists and loyalists use the term too. JonChapple 17:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose, for a start the idea of membership is an open question anyway so it may not be accurate. Further the sources say volunteers in the main. Its an accurate term and its neither positive or negative, its simply true --Snowded 17:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Jonchapple if you can't add something useful you should stop. I've not expressed an opinion on Loylists, so your question is either inane or an attempt to be misleading. In that case you are deliberately misrepresenting me, and I strongly suggest you strike of remove your comments above.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I know you haven't expressed an opinion on loyalists – that's my point. When I tried to change the references to "UVF men" to "UVF volunteers" in line with the IRA in the McGurk's Bar article, you reverted it. I've been waiting for an explanation since then. JonChapple 17:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

You are clearly misrepresenting me and offering your own opinions. Were have I express the opinion that I "believe republicans have some kind of a monopoly on "volunteer""". Now provide a diff of strike/remove the comment.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

A diff of what? Reverting my changing "UVF men" to "volunteers"? What was your reasoning for that if you don't believe we shouldn't use the word to describe loyalists? JonChapple 18:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I want a diff supporting your post, simple.--Domer48_'fenian' 18:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't you ever get bored of playing cryptic games? I've provided a diff that shows that you don't believe we should refer to UVF members as volunteers. Whether you want to play along is up to you, there's plenty of other people in this discussion who aren't quite so obstructive. JonChapple 18:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The UVF has a system of military ranks, the lowest of which is volunteer. When referring to a member of the UVF, it is appropriate to use the proper rank, if such can be established from reliable sources. Eg Robin Jackson was a brigadier, and is referred to as such. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 18:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

OPPOSE. Per Domer. Ruairí Óg's (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Technically Wiki guidelines say you should provide your own reasoning for supporting or opposing something and says you shouldn't just per someone else. Mabuska 23:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose If they are called Volunteers in reliable sources be they IRA, UVF or whatever then we should use the same here. Member is no more neutral than Volunteer if that is what the respective organisations call themselves. Mo ainm~Talk 19:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose/use both reliable sources use both. While member seems to be the preferred term, used by more sources, volunteer is used by numerous sources which are certainly not pro-republican or pro-IRA. These include The Sun newspaper, The Times and The Scotsman. The members of the Victim's Commission, including Ulster Unionist Party candidate Mike Nesbitt, had no problem with the term. The mediation cabal, while old, arrived at its conclusion after exhaustive debate: "In the main text of an article the word, volunteer, is free to be used, but this has to be judged in each particular instance to achieve maximum sense and good style. It should not be used rigidly and other terms such as "IRA member" can also be used or any other appropriate reference. Different terms can be interspersed, and may vary from article to article." I'd read that as similar to the old British/American English thing: if an article already uses one form, leave it be. Valenciano (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Pretty split opinion on the matter (no surprise). Very old mediation cabal, however the quote you provide Valenciano is very interesting, as it may be debatable whether every mention of the term has been judged along that guideline to achieve maximum sense and good style or whether its being used to push an ideal - and that alone will be hard to judge in some cases.

If member seems to be the preferred term in sources, with volunteer used by numerous sources, what about numerous sources that call them terrorists? The mediation cabal quote you provide contains phrases such as "other terms such as" and "Different terms can be interspersed" - does that mean if its reliably sourced and meets "achieve maximum sense and good style" you can also use the term terrorist? Technically whilst all IRA, UVF members are volunteers, meaning the term isn't inaccurate, they are also terrorists, which isn't inaccurate either. Just a query for clarification not a proposal of any sort. Mabuska 23:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree that the use of the term "volunteer" confers any kind of legitimacy on the individuals or indeed the organisation. Articles on members of the American Mafia, for instance, often refer to their rank within the organisation - soldier, caporegime, underboss etc. It's simply a matter of using terms that convey meaning in context, albeit the context may be a corrupt and criminal organisation. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 23:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

What's wrong with "member"? Mooretwin (talk) 00:03, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, in the case of Robin Jackson, say, it wouldn't convey as much information as citing his rank of brigadier. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

We're not discussing Robin Jackson. We're discussing McGurk's Bar bombing where the references are to anonymouse PIRA members. Mooretwin (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The discussion is more broadly about the appropriate nomenclature for paramilitaries. (But in the particular case of the McGurk's bombing, the article refers to letters that were sent to the RUC claiming that two "IRA volunteers" were killed. It seems to me that we need to see transcripts of the letters to establish whether this is an accurate statement, and whether the letters indeed used the term "volunteer"). Ivor Stoughton (talk) 00:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

{deindent} @Mabuska above, no it doesn't mean that we should use terrorist/freedom fighter even if they are used by reliable sources because those are value laden terms and cast judgement on the morality and legitimacy of what they do. Freedom fighter will only be used by sources supportive of the IRA, while terrorist will generally be used by those hostile to the IRA, so you will never read in An Phoblacht that "Gerry Adams addressed a meeting of former IRA terrorists" nor in the Sun that "former IRA freedom fighter Gerry Kelly said..." However you will see the term IRA volunteer used in sources which are both pro-IRA and anti-IRA such as The Sun above or even victims of the IRA groups like FAIR which no one would seriously suggest are trying to glorify the IRA. Per the previous mediation, I don't see that we should make a fuss over using volunteer or member as both are quite neutral and descriptive. Valenciano (talk) 09:32, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

oppose - I think there needs to be evidence that it is being used incorrectly before it should be changed, as per the mediation cabal. This is change for change sake. Why not just put a {{fact}} template on the usage in McGurks. Thats the standard, lets-not-make-a-drama-out-of-this, way of handling these issues. We don't need a huge Project talk page discussion every time an editor sees something they disagree with it. Use a {{fact}} tag and move on. Fmph (talk) 09:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Let's see what books have to say about this eh?

• Moloney A Secret History of the IRA page 149 "And such was the initial success of the new police interrogation centers at Castlereagh, as Strand Read in Derry, and as Gough Barracks in Armagh in extracting confessions from IRA Volunteers..."
• English Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA page 197 "He was again arrested, in October 1976, in Dunmurry, Belfast, after an IRA operation: they had bombed the Balmoral Furnishing Company in a hit involving nine IRA Volunteers"
• Taylor Provos: The IRA and Sinn Féin" page 104 "Sinn Féin existed in the shadow of the IRA and was of little interest to most IRA Volunteers"
• McGladdery The Provisional IRA in England: the bombing campaign, 1973-1997 page 67 "Despite a serious setback with the loss of ten high ranking volunteers..."
• Geraghty The Irish War: the hidden conflict between the IRA and British Intelligence page 4 "If an MI5 report made public in 1997 was correct, the movement secretly recruited and trained a new generation of volunteers"
• Coogan The IRA page 403 Less than two weeks after the 'Kangaroos' episode, on 2 December 1971, two of the Provisionals' toughest volunteers.."
• Harnden Bandit Country page 204 "Four IRA volunteers were arrested..."
• Dillon 25 Years of Terror: The IRA's War against the British page 165 "None of those journalists suspected they were active IRA volunteers"

I got kind of bored after every single book I checked about the IRA used "volunteers", does anyone want me to check the rest to really hammer the point home? WP:IDON'TLIKEVOLUNTEERS doesn't seem to exist right now, but it most certainly is the correct term used by reliable sources. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Why have you moved Volunteer (Ireland) to Volunteer (Irish republican)? Are you of the opinion that all non-republican claims to the title are invalid? JonChapple 11:39, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

With reference to the preceeding comment, the fact of the matter is that User:Jonchapple moved Volunteer (Irish republican) to Volunteer (Ireland) without any attempt at discussion or consensus. It was quickly moved back, the user in question reverted the move, and it was moved back again. Hohenloh 13:14, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Correct, I boldly moved it in May time, I'm not hiding that. I'm just curious as to why anyone thinks the current title is a better one than the much more accurate and neutral Volunteer (Ireland). JonChapple 13:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean neutral? The article is about the Irish Republican usage of the term. It is accurate and neutral. Mo ainm~Talk 15:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not, it's about use of the term in general. It mentions the Irish Volunteers, Ulster Volunteers and modern loyalist paramilitaries, none of which are republicans.

Mo ainm a chara, its clear the article is about Irish Republican usage of the term, no point wasting any more time on it. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

"I don't feel like chatting about it, because if I just ignore the discussion the article will have to stay as it is. That's how Domerpedia works." JonChapple 20:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Soldiers / British soldiers

Just while I'm ruffling feathers, I've noticed a trend on wiki where editors on Northern Ireland Troubles related articles sometimes get into little ding-dongs over whether to refer to "the army" or "the British army", or "soldiers" vs "British soldiers". Now the defence I've seen of the removal of "British" is that it's supposedly obvious that they are British soldiers and hence there's no need to specify it. But, wrt WP:OBVIOUS, is it obvious to everyone who might be reading the article? Wiki is read by an international audience, including people who may be unfamiliar with the conflict and who may not be aware of which army is being referred to. Hell, there are people in Britain who don't even know that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, so what chance has a reader in Malaysia who isn't even sure which island is Britain and which is Ireland? I move that we allow the descriptor "British" to remain. --Eamonnca1 18:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

My preference is to say "British Army" for the first instance, then simply "the army" and "soldiers" from then on it. No matter your feelings on the status of Northern Ireland, the fact remains that it is a country of the United Kingdom and so the British Army is its army. We wouldn't keep referring to the "British Army" on an article about a conflict in England. JonChapple 20:51, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

After the first reference in the article to "British Army", yes, it is obvious. No need constantly to state British thereafter. A bit like the first reference to Provisional IRA, followed simply by IRA. Mooretwin (talk) 20:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)