Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:45, 19 March 2006

Traditional evolutionists have occasionally linked the Black race's similarities to apes to being at a 'lesser' evoultionary state or level than White people. At one point, museums even contained evolutionary charts in which it showed apes evolving to Homo erectus, to neanderthal, to blacks, to whites.

This is actually based on incorrect traditional beliefs about how humans evolved and came about.

The fact is, and this will be mainstream knowledge within the next 30 years, I would estimate, humans were originally blonde haired and blue eyes, with some red haired and green eyed people. This was actually in a totally different star system, which no longer exists, in the direction of Lyrae. They were not descended from apes. They contained dolphin DNA, and were upright semi-aquatic mammals.

The Black race were created much later on Earth by combining the upgraded genetics of apes, particularly chimpanzees and gorillas, with blonde-haired and red-haired white humans, as well as the genetics of their creators, an amphibian quasi-reptilian race called the Abbennakki. Loius Farrakhan has even talked about this, due to encounters with the Abbennakki in the mid 1990s.

In Sumer, because the original inhabitants of the region were a Negroid race that was conquered by a white race (The Aryans), the Negroids became slaves in the Sumerian caste hierarchy. These people, despite being slaves, had their own culture, system of writing, language, and long history. This same history is essentially recounted by Sub-Saharan tribes like the Zulu and Watutsi.

They called themselves the Sag-Gi-Ga, or the Black-Headed people. They spoke of how their creators were a group of gods called the Anunnaki (Abbennakki), that made them by combining the blood of apes and men (genetic engineering). This is partially where the story of Enkidu came from. Enki was said to be the chief geneticist of these gods. Zecharia Sitchin has mistranslated the tablets. They actually recount the creation of the Black race, the Sag-Gi-Ga, not the Sumerians, who were a mixture of white, semitic, and Elamo-Dravidian peoples.

They stated that the Abbennakki would one day return to avenge them, and take them to Nibiru, an artificial planetoid, where they would be saved from the tyranny of the Sum-Aryans.

Unfortunately, the Abbennakki have been deterred from the Earth by the United States government. This was in the summer of 2003, when Nibiru was visible in the night sky, as reported in Newsweek and the New York Times.

That's about the dumbest stuff I've heard in a while. W-aaay outside. deeceevoice 20:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this guy SERIOUS?????

Yeah, this takes a giant stab at wikipedia's credibility.... Damien Vryce 18:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

So Jay Leno's Negroid?

This is bull. --Vehgah 06:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL

Are you on drugs?

What the hell is this? Since when does this kind of bizzare stuff make it into an "encyclopedia". My kids use this website at school. Hardly quality academic reading!

You should warn your children (and their schoolteacher) to use Misplaced Pages with caution. Each article is merely a consensus of some people who are interested in the topic, no matter how ignorant or ideologically motivated they may be. Usually this reflects scholarly knowledge, but sometimes it does not. The "African American" article, for example, contains two egregious known factual inaccuracies. In that particular case falsification by the article's editors is evidently meant to support ethnic solidarity. In all such cases attempts to correct ideological fraud or ignorance with facts from peer-reviewed academically accepted sources are swiftly reverted. Frank W Sweet 12:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

How on earth did "prognathism" become defined here as pathological?

This article started out as something reasonable. It very clearly stated that prognathism is a tell-tale phenotypical trait of Africoid peoples. Now I return to find the flat profiles (of whites) defined as "normal" -- meaning, I suppose, that the majority of humankind (black people in Africa, Australia, New Guinea, the Indian subcontinent -- and a whole lot of Asians -- including a lot of Latinos) are abnormal. So, whites are "normal," and a good chunk of the majority of humankind is implicity "abnormal"? I have to believe this was deliberate, given the information already provided to the contrary. It stinks of racism. I've made the changes. It may not be perfect, but at least it's accurate. deeceevoice 19:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Prognathism is least in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids

The article was wrong, prognathism should be least in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids. Caucasoids like in most biometric results lie between Negroids (Africoids) and Mongoloids. I added the classic human skull diagrams of all three races for comparison (appropriate considering the use of prognathism in determining race). Mongoloids are not stereotyped of having a "flat face" for nothing.

Yes, absolutely correct. I'm not sure which language you're referring to, but I realize that I may have referred to prognathism in "Mongoloids," while thinking "Asians" (as in Southeast Asians). Genetically more Asian than African, some blacks in Southeast Asia and, actually, nonblack ("Mongoloid"), but often dark-skinned, Asians of places like Indonesia and Cambodia, for example, do, indeed, have facial prognathisms). But, then, there are acknowledged faciocranial differences between these (sundadont) populations, who are more noticeably mixed with the aboriginal Negritos of the region, and the (sinodont) Asians of the Far East. If that was my error, sorry for my mental glitch.

Someone added that maxillary prognathism was common in Caucasians, when it most assuredly is not. The feature pointed to is not considered prognathism. In the Caucasoid rendering, a virtual plumb line can be drawn from the bridge of the nose through the root of the nose at the top of the upper lip, through to the chin (make an upward extension to the bridge of the nose of line a in the "zygomatics" a-b line). This is the flat Caucasoid aspect that does not evidence maxillary prognathism -- not the point where the upper teeth are. I've removed it from the sentence. Deeceevoice 08:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I just came across something on the web that says otherwise. I don't know if my earlier statement which was challenged was occasioned by something I actually already knew or, as I assumed above, a misspeak of sorts. But phenotypically in this regard, it appears that Mongoloids do have moderate prognathism, being an intermediate between Negroids and Caucasoids in this regard. In retrospect, I recall seeing one of those magazine-format shows on television in which the cranium of a murdered woman was found. I immediately noted a prognathism and, without noting any other characteristics thought, "black." But the talking head said the subject was either black or possibly Latino/Native American -- presumably also based on the alveolar prognathism. Deeceevoice 03:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Outdated racist pseudo-science

"The modern urge to describe humans on a new, explicitly scientific basis took many, often strange, forms in the nineteenth century. For example, the science of phrenology, whose heyday was between 1820 and 1850, and later racial anthropological physiognomy, attracted many followers. That man's physical and, by extension, moral, intellectual, and social development, could be determined by, and seen in, his physiognomy -- in, say, jaw structure and shape of the head-- were to many respected sciences that enjoyed wide currency. (When the archvillain, Moriarity, meets his adversary Sherlock Holmes for the first time, Moriarity's immediate comment was, "You have less frontal development that I should have expected.") After Darwin popularized the idea that humans are descended from apes, the prognathous (protruding) jaw became a sign of lower development and of a closer relationship to primitive man. It also became the basis of much racial stereotyping of the Irish, and racial anthropologists argued that working class people were more prognathous than their social superiors- who were- self-flatteringly described as also biologically superior.

In his very influential book, The Races of Man (1862), John Beddoe, the future president of the Anthropological Institute, emphasized the vast difference between the prognathous (protruding) and orthognathous (less prominent) jawed people of Britain. These were terms originally The Irish, Welsh, and significantly, the lower class people, were among the prognathous, whereas all men of genius were orthognathous. (Beddoe also developed an Index of Nigressence, from which he argued that the Irish were close to Cro-Magnon man and thus had links with the "Africinoid" races!) These activities were reminiscent of Pieter Camper's theory of a 'facial angle'. One should emphasize, however, that such craniological and anthropometric studies "always represented a minority" of the papers presented at the Anthropological Institute, 1871-1899.

These late nineteenth-century anatomical and anthropological descriptions of 'races' and their characteristics, measurements etc. were later the inspiration for the sort of mid twentieth-century racial anthropology as promulgated in Nazi Germany."

See Lorimer, "Theoretical Racism in Late-Victorian Anthropology, 1870-1900 CoYep 19:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, racial phenotypes are those characteristics that most distinctively differentiate groups of like populations from one another. Prognathism is one of those characteristics. Argue with the anthropologists and the forensic scientists who still use prognathism to determine ethnicity in unidentified human remains. Certainly, the version of this article which defines prognathism as some sort of malformation or result of disease is far more racist than taking note of naturally occurring differences among human phenotypes. Deeceevoice 22:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any citations of anthropologists doing this in the modern era? Justforasecond 01:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Outdated, racist pseudo-science?"? Hardly.

• "Modern craniofacial anthropometrists (forensic anthropologists) give more importance to prognathism than to skin tone ...." - from "The Heredity of 'Racial' Traits: Essays on the Color Line and the One-Drop Rule by Frank W Sweet, December 15, 2004"

The above usage conflates two different meanings of the word "race." The above sentence refers to the appearance-based endogamous groups of U.S. society. A forensic anthropologist can determine from a skull's craniofacial anthropometry whether the person would have been seen as "White" or "Black" by U.S. society. Such a determination is not possible in Puerto Rico, Brazil, Senegal, Chad, Ethiopia, or for that matter most places outside the U.S., because they lack appearance-based endogamous groups. It works in the U.S. because for four centuries U.S. society has succeeded in maintaining two endogamous groups on the basis of physical appearance. This social meaning of "race" should not be used to support the notion of biological "race" in the sense of breed, variety, or subspecies. No one has yet been able to categorize H. sapiens into groups such that inter-group variation (physical differences between groups) is greater than intra-group variation (differences between sub-groups within the groups). For an interesting discussion of this, see the exchange between William (another student of molecular anthropology) and myself starting at http://backintyme.com/ODR/viewtopic.php?t=1337?start=6427#6427. Frank W Sweet 12:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Rather than respond to a single entry (which I merely quickly skimmed for key words), address the central question here: is prognathism used to determine race/ethnicity by modern anthropologists? The answer is a resounding "Yes!" (See below.) :p Deeceevoice 19:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem was in how you defined "race." Since you have now clarified that you mean ethnicity (voluntary group socio-political self-identity), then I agree that the answer is "yes." But the easiest way of measuring this is not by skull measurement, but simply asking the person how they self-identify. That way, you will get correct (and different) answers from Hispanic-Americans, Arab-Americans, and Native Americans despite their having identical measurements. Frank W Sweet 20:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't define race at all. And, no. I'll not play word games with you. The information provided in the links below speaks for itself. And I'll thank you to keep your questions about drug use to yourself. The information provided in the article is accurate. Prognathism is used as a metric to assign racial identity. 20:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If you did not want to "play word games" with me, then you should not have quoted me out of context. Regarding "drug use," I have no idea what you are talking about. Your heartfelt belief in the "race" notion coupled with your inability to define it consistently make this conversation pointless. Quote me out of context again, however, and I shall return. Frank W Sweet 22:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First, my apologies. I was looking at the edit history and when reading your comments posted under someone else's subhead, read the subhead as your edit note to a comment made to me. (I've been at my computer, crunching deadlines seriatim since 4 a.m., and taking wiki breaks to relieve the tedium, so I admit to being a little punchy. My bad.)

"I shall return"? What's with the MacArthur impersonation? Woo-ooh. I'm shakin' in my shoes. :p Seriously, though, I just noticed that you are the guy from the website. (At first, I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.) My sincere apologies if I misquoted you. Again, I did a quick search for "prognathism" along with a combination of words likely to yield results in various disciplines. The reference to that particular website, as with the others below was done quickly and, I admit, not thoroughly. Toss it out. Fine. And JFAS still has a response to his inquiry. Prognathism is a metric used today -- and very effectively -- to determine racial/ethnic identity across a number of disciplines.

Finally, you are hardly sufficiently familiar with my thoughts on the matter to characterize what I believe with regard to the notion of race. Further, I have not attempted to define race herein at all. My purpose has been to define "prognathism" within the context of the article -- and, again, it is a characteristic common to Africoid peoples -- that is, peoples indigenous to the African continent. In short, black people. Prognathism (and the accompanying characteristics) is how Susan Anton, the lead person on the American team in the reconstruction of King Tut's skull, identified the skull as belonging to a "North African" without having a clue to its age or origin (contrary to the French and Egyptian teams). (And, no. Hawass lied. She never characterized the skull as "Caucasoid." :p) Deeceevoice 23:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• A manual for an online course in forensic anthropology (Note the table about a third of the way down the page.)
• "Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science"
• "Introduction to Biological Anthropology: Human Variation and Biological Classification"

From a quick search on the www. This stuff is common knowledge, widely known and widely used currently in a number of disciplines -- as demonstrated above. Deeceevoice 02:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Racism? This reads like the pot calling the kettle black.

The observation of naturally occurring differences among human populations is merely that. What one does with such perfectly factual information may or may not be racist. But the fact that such differences exist -- and that those differences are routinely and legitimately used in scientific and other disciplines -- is undeniable. I find it amusing -- not to mention curious -- that User: CoYep deliberately rewrote the language I had written which explained that the majority of the incidence of prognathism in human populations is perfectly natural. Coyep deliberately redefined prognathism as abnormal and the result of disease. He also produced inserted a schematic that pronounced the flat, Caucasoid profile "normal" which, by implication, meant that Negroid and Mongoloid profiles are somehow abnormal. I reverted his changes -- and you restored them. Yet you claim to be concerned about racism. Now, far be it for me to jump to conclusions about your motives, but there seems to be an incongruity here. I'd be very interested in hearing an explanation of Coyep and your edits. Would either of you care to address the rationale behind your edits in this regard? Deeceevoice 11:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could share your sense of humor, but unfortunately I can't find anything "amusing" about an editor who - for the sake of POV pushing - declares that adopting the terminlogy and illustration of the National Institutes of Health is "racist" but then insists that an exaggerated and insulting illustration of a skull that looks like an inferior Homo erectus skull or even a Chimpanzee skull "accurately depicts the characteristics of the classic "Negroid" phenotype". And, reviewing the discussion @ Talk:Negroid, it's obvious that my sentiments are shared by many other editors. CoYep 13:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

A wholly unsatisfactory response -- and not an explanation at all. I will say this about the discussion at Negroid. It was the result of ignorance on the part of some of the editors, reacting to the old racist propaganda that likened black folks to simeons -- when all hominids are ape-like, some profiles, human and simeon, sharing prognathisms, others sharing a flatter profile. Frankly, it's all the same. And once that was explained to them, the most vociferous of those objecting to the illustration to which you refer conceded that his was a knee-jerk reaction. And the illustration, because it is accurate, remains.

Now, insofar as your unfortunate and, IMO, reprehensible editorial conduct with regard to this particular article: as the article as I've written it clearly states, prognathism, indeed, can be the result of a disease condition or abnormality in some circumstances -- in populations where prognathism is not the norm. However, the article also very clearly states that in certain populations -- blacks and Asians -- prognathism is the norm. That means that whites are a distinct minority in this regard. (Your illustration designating the flattened Caucasoid profile as "normal" is certainly not the case when the whole of humanity is taken into account. If one were to take your approach, one could most certainly, and more accurately, assert that it is the Caucasoid profile which is the abnormal one.) What you have done is tantamount to someone turning to a medical article on progeria and inserting it into an article on the elderly and using it support the ridiculous contention that all old people are abnormal, malformed or diseased. You pointedly reverted the text to blanketly define prognathism as abnormal and a deformity. That, to me, smacks of racism and deliberate provocation -- and, IMO, pretty tacky and extremely ill-considered. I hope that in the future your edits will be more factual and respectful of the documented information already presented. Deeceevoice 18:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)