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September 11 attacks

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result pending

This article was failed at GAN on 5 July and passed after resubmission on 25 July. Both reviewers considered that the article may be a case for WP:IAR, incorrectly in my view. My primary concern is that this article does not present a balanced view of the events surrounding 9/11, sticking rigidly to the official government line. All alternative accounts (aka conspiracy theories) are completely ignored, not even included in the See also section. I believe this gives undue weight to one particular version of events. Malleus Fatuorum 18:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• I share Malleus's concerns about NPOV by omission. In addition there are several other areas where the article's coverage has been limited, in spite of the presence of reliable sources we could use. I have outlined these in the talk page but have not yet received any substantive response. --John (talk) 19:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  Perhaps that is because the consensus of editors there do not share your opinion?--MONGO 22:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what I expected to see here from Malleus. Malleus, least you could have done is surprised me....very disappointed. More...later.MONGO 19:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

You won't find me as easy to intimidate as you have some others MONGO. Now please try not further lower the tone here by personalising my concerns about this article's recent promotion. Malleus Fatuorum 20:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

No intimidaton intended. I never once saw your concerns about the alleged POV issues at the article Rfa's which involved dozens of editors who twice reached an overwhelming consensus to not include conspiracy theories. In fact, in an effort to streamline and reduce the POV issues, two to three paragraphs which detailed the celebrations that broke out all over the Muslim (and even non-Muslim) regions of the world immediately after the attacks, were removed, though they were excellently referenced and the section was well written. What you want is a coatrack article which, instead of providing the best reliable witness to the immediate events, instead dwelves into psuedoscience, innuendo and fanciful misrepresentations. The article was promoted to GA (a process I was not involved in) and subsequently, in the drive to get it to FA level, the article HAS had major improvements in prose, MOS issues and other criteria. I myself have stated it still needs to be refined greatly before it is FA material, but the improvements alone since the GA promotion makes your attempt here appear to be nothing other than pettiness. Here you show your plan, a plan that has all the appearances of revenge for perceived slights rather than a goal of article improvement...you make it clear you intend to tear the article down rather than build it up....but instead of EDITING the article or contributing to the talk page there to voice your concerns, you do this action, which is exactly why I stated it is no surprise...that is not the Misplaced Pages way and I think you must be reminded to not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. So, in light of the fact that this article has seen major improvements since the GA promotion and that your action here is done, in my opinion, in bad faith, I certainly cannot support a demotion from its GA rating.--MONGO 22:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• There was an RfC on the subject of the conspiracy theories a few months ago (link) which produced a consensus that they were not to be included. Describing the viewpoint of virtually all reliable sources as "the official government line" is a serious misrepresentation. Hut 8.5 20:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, I think the straw poll on extirpating all mention of conspiracies was a terrible idea. Local consensus does not override sitewide policies like NPOV, and nor should it be allowed to override GAR. An article about 9/11 which only gives the US government view is like an article on the Pearl Harbor attacks which neglects to mention both the poor preparedness of the defenders and the fact that the attack catapulted America into a World War. Do please note that there are other reasons to fail this article besides the omission of mention of conspiracy theories, that's just a really obvious example; see my comment just above and the longer discussion in article talk for some of the other suggestions towards improving the article which have been stonewalled. --John (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

    Only the government view...then why are the vast majority of sources from newspapers and books and not published or sponsored by the government of the U.S.? Are you suggesting that the newspapers are being told what to print by the government?--MONGO 23:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Procedural comment. The question at hand is whether the article meets the GA criteria, in particular 3(a) (coverage) and 4 (neutrality), but there may also be other issues to consider (prose? words to watch? synthesis?). The recent RfC/poll is only useful to the extent that the arguments made there may inform the present discussion. In my view, the poll was flawed, but my opinion, the outcome of the poll, whether the RfC was a good idea/well managed or not, etc. - these considerations are essentially irrelevant. This is an emotive topic, and personal agendas or disagreements need to be put to one side. Does the article meet the criteria or not? That is all. Geometry guy 22:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I am not a fan of fringe theories, let alone conspiracy theories. However, where those theories become a significant topic of public discourse, it is unencyclopedic and even irresponsible not to discuss them in an encyclopedia article. Avoiding mentioning them only feeds the conspiracy theory, whereas making the reader aware that the theory is widely known and discounted by most reliable sources allows them to make a more informed decision. This is an issue faced by many articles, such as Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Moon landing/Apollo program, Area 51, Loch Ness, etc. When involved in one such article, I suggest to consider how you might approach the treatment of conspiracy/fringe theories in some of the others. Geometry guy 22:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  WP:ONEWAY applies in the article in question..it may also in the others you listed.--MONGO 23:02, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  It may indeed, and as a part of WP:FRINGE, it may provide helpful advice which editors can use here, but WP:FRINGE is not, in itself, a GA criterion. The GA criteria are the only criteria that matter here. Geometry guy 23:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This continued emphasis on "conspiracy theories" is disingenuous. The first plane struck at 8:46 am, the last at 10:03 am, 77 minutes later. It needs to be explained why the USAF apparently made no effort to intercept any of these hijacked aircraft, and what if anything has done since then to deal with a future incident like this one. The controlled demolition theory has also had some support from academic physicists and needs to be at least mentioned, not ignored. Malleus Fatuorum 23:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

"It needs to be explained...". No it doesn't unless there are reliable sources which raise the question. If there are, Misplaced Pages should report how the question is discussed in reliable sources. Geometry guy 00:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does need to be explained, as reliable sources have discussed the issue. Malleus Fatuorum 00:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Good. Then it is a matter for discussion below whether such information should be included in the article to meet the GA criteria. Geometry guy 00:19, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, but let me be more precise. I'm not talking about the whacky idea that Dick Cheney was in charge of NORAD on 9/11 and that he ordered them to stand down, but a rational discussion of why NORAD was powerless to do anything and what, if anything has changed to make NORAD, less ineffectual if something similar should happen again. It seems ridiculous to me to argue that this article on an air attack could be considered to be sufficiently broad to meet the GA criteria when it fails to address the issue of the US's air defences on the grounds that to do so would be to give weight to fringe theories. Malleus Fatuorum 01:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Then let me be more precise also. It is not the role of Misplaced Pages to act as a political commentator on the state of the US air defense in general, or NORAD in particular. Nor is it our role to improve US air defenses. The GA criteria are not based on what "seems ridiculous" to an individual editor. Geometry guy 01:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I know the GA criteria at least as well as you do. It is my firm belief that by omitting such information, along with completely ignoring the entire issue of the various conspiracy theories, that the article fails to meet criterion 3a. You are of course free to disagree, but you are unlikely to change my mind. Malleus Fatuorum 01:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have already raised the issue above that the article might not meet 3a, but I have not settled on a position. I cannot therefore attempt to change your mind to my position, as I don't have one. What is needed below is good reasoning. Geometry guy 01:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's be brave and point out the elephant in the room here. The last time I tried to help at this article two years ago, an IP was trying to add information regarding the non-response of the USAF. I supplied a decent book source, but the suggestion was not taken up. The debate finished up with "how do you report these fringe/POV problems? I want to report violations like this" and I walked away disgusted. Nobody challenged the contention by User:Dcs002 that this constructive and certainly well-intentioned suggestion was a "violation". Multiply this by a large number and you have an article that looks like this. The talk page is not a friendly place to go; as recently as yesterday I made what I thought was a constructive suggestion there, to be met with snark. I hate to say it, but there has been a long-term user conduct problem there, and this has held the article back. For it to improve, user conduct around this article would need to improve. I have no idea how to accomplish this. On the specific point of the USAF non-response, I can easily provide two excellent book sources, if there is any will to include this type of material, something I am currently unconvinced of. --John (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd point out as well that it was a "fringe idea" in the early 19th century that the human body could survive the stresses of travelling faster than 30 mph. Fringe ideas are not by definition wrong, and need to be given due weight, whatever that is, not ignored. Malleus Fatuorum 23:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Both you and John are promoting conspiracy theories...you say physicists question the collapse of the towers...which physicists....show me where their information has been published by a reliable source which provides peer review. You mention NORAD...the airforce being told to step down...so what. You think without know how many, which, where hijacked aircraft were in the air...you must have been reading some really bad information to sound so utterly ignorant. Seriously, you and John sound like you both have no idea what the theory of occums razor is when applied to these conspiracy theories...that either of you two can't seem to understand that these are conspiracy theories indicates to me that you are either extremely ill inform or ignorant. John should have been topic banned from 9/11 related articles years ago...his interest in what goes in them has almost universally been fringe info...even by progressive standards. It should be noted that a periperal article on 7 WTC was John's old haunt...where under his old username he almost ceaselessly tried to get CT nonsense mainstreamed there in a massive POV push...so this is just more of the same...7 WTC is an FA thanks to Aude who opposed John for admin...I should have followed her lead. Does all this sound like persoanl attacks...I hope so...I'm sick and tired of fringe theory promoters keeping this and other articles in the dark ages with their constant demands for NPOV coverage of nonsense. MONGO 04:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

At least I can spell Occam's razor, which doesn't demand that we ignore valid questions such as NORAD's inactivity but rather adopt the simplest plausible explanation for them. It is not a fringe theory to state quite simply that in the aftermath of the attacks doubts were expressed that the collapse of the Twin Towers could have been caused by the impact of the aircraft alone. But this article also has many others problems not yet touched on, not least its overall structure and general feel of flabbiness and turgidity in the writing, none of which can be fixed in the face of such stubborn aggression as you habitually display. Malleus Fatuorum 14:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The controlled demolition theory has also had some support from academic physicists - one academic physicist (Steven E. Jones, previously known for his work on nuclear fusion) has given it support. As a result he was placed on leave from his university and the departments of physics and engineering issued statements saying they do not support his theories. The controlled demolition theory has had hardly any impact in the scientific community and there are sources which support this assertion.

The other issue which has been raised is that the article does not discuss the reasons why the US Air Force did not intercept the flights. This is a perfectly legitimate topic discussed in reliable sources and is not a fringe theory (not necessarily, anyway). The issue is not whether Misplaced Pages should cover it, but where Misplaced Pages should cover it. This is quite a detailed point, the article is already quite long, and there is a sub-article on the topic at U.S. military response during the September 11 attacks. GA criterion 3b states that articles shouldn't go into unnecessary details and should delegate them to sub-articles. Hut 8.5 14:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

THe issue has never been whether or not Misplaced Pages should cover the topic of NORAD's lack of action but whether this article should. This is an article on an air attack that completely ignores the question of air defence, which I think you'll find a hard sell to persuade anyone is "unnecessary detail". Malleus Fatuorum 14:18, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• So people have found yet another forum to argue for the inclusion and/or expansion of conspiracy theories in the article. Well, the scope and wieghting of topics is determined by the reliable sources. These make clear that those theories are too peripheral to include, so I don't see there's much to be done. My advice is not to let GA, or FA, or any of that be used as a lever to distort the article. Tom Harrison 14:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good article reassessment