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* '''Support merge of ''The Galloping Ghost''''' - no indication of notability besides the accident. No speed records, no military history, nothing. Just another customized vehicle. -- ] (]) 03:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | * '''Support merge of ''The Galloping Ghost''''' - no indication of notability besides the accident. No speed records, no military history, nothing. Just another customized vehicle. -- ] (]) 03:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | ||
*'''Merge all''' - as far as bio goes, no one has anything on him prior to 1982, when he started Leeward, and then it's all of one sentence. After that, there's a bunch of vague material on "various stunt credits", and then his death. As for the plane, the most we have is that it was a heavily modified P-51. Their notability as topics stems entirely from the events of the air crash, and do not stand up to GNG in their own right. ] (]) 05:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | *'''Merge all''' - as far as bio goes, no one has anything on him prior to 1982, when he started Leeward, and then it's all of one sentence. After that, there's a bunch of vague material on "various stunt credits", and then his death. As for the plane, the most we have is that it was a heavily modified P-51. Their notability as topics stems entirely from the events of the air crash, and do not stand up to GNG in their own right. ] (]) 05:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | ||
*'''' - The only reason that there is one sentence is that I am not the best writer at times. I did not want to repeat what the article said so I wrote a little and added the references so someone who was a better writer could improve it. ] (]) 05:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support aircraft merge''' and ''Oppose bio merge''' - The person seems notable enough for Misplaced Pages, but the plane itself probably isn't.--] <sup>]</sup> 05:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC) | *'''Support aircraft merge''' and ''Oppose bio merge''' - The person seems notable enough for Misplaced Pages, but the plane itself probably isn't.--] <sup>]</sup> 05:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:54, 18 September 2011
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A news item involving 2011 Reno Air Races crash was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 18 September 2011. |
Airplane modifications
I've removed a sentence referring to modifications to the plane, for now. There is no evidence so far that this is in any way related to the cause of the crash, and we should not be encouraging speculation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it was deemed important by Reuters, who published the info. We should not encourage speculation, but I think it's notable that the plane was recently modified. We are not, of course, implying that the modifications had anything to do with the crash; we are just mentioning info that was deemed relevant by a WP:RS. Nanobear (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is now an article about the plane itself that has info about the modifications: The Galloping Ghost airplane. So maybe there's no need to mention them here. Nanobear (talk) 03:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Number of Injured
There seems to be a contraction on the number of injuries at the moment. Most sources say the injury count is at 56, but due to "a number of people being transported by private vehicle" that count is too low. Should we continue to use the current known count, or a estimated count which is done currently on the Current Events page. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/3-dead-56-injured-horrific-reno-air-show-020656982.html 204.106.252.64 (talk) 03:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's WP:NORUSH, use what is reported in reliable sources. The total will become clear in a day or twk. Mjroots (talk) 06:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Candidate for deletion
Condolences to the relatives and friends of the deceased and injured, but this accident isn't unusual, and probably isn't worth breathlessly reporting in Misplaced Pages. I have personally witnessed the deaths of three aviators in front of the grandstands at Reno over the years, along with several non-fatal crashes. Where is their story? Why should the 2011 accident require special attention, other than stimulating the morbid fascinations of the contributors to this Misplaced Pages article?
This article should be deleted. I am not being facetious or callous in my statement, having lost friends and acquaintances in aviation accidents over the years. However, this article serves no useful purpose, any more than describing the lurid details of a highway crash. Leave that to the tabloids. — Quicksilver 07:33, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
25 dead is a major incident.(I wrote that from memory, but I am way off this case). The trend at Misplaced Pages tends to feature more detail than in previously. While I'm not sure how good/bad this trend is, I detest the inevitable AFD and round and rounds of debate each discussion gets, almost as if it's a war of attrition. If you still wish to propose it for deletion, please wait a few months. If you nominate it now, it will get snowed over with speedy keeps. As for your other point, it may be possible to create a general list of aircraft accidents. See List of rail accidents (2010–2019), for instance, which details lots of accidents too minor to create an article about (which, too, has been subject to debate as to what ones should qualify for mention). hbdragon88 (talk) 08:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)- As I mentioned over on Talk:Reno Air Races, I believe this is the first crash in Reno history to result in spectator injuries, not to mention fatalities. That makes it somewhat different from an "ordinary" fatal crash. rdfox 76 (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article is a bit thin at the moment, and needs more depth. Not every air crash needs its own article, and this could be merged with Reno Air Races.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I am a air race fan (1995-current, have missed 2 years). I understand the relative importances (why this and not the others), and the fact that the pilots and spectators are all very aware of the risks, and the subtext of risk of cancellation by risk-averse nanny-state types. However, in spite of all of this, when an event hits the top of the Google News page and stays there for a day, it's notable. I also tend to think the other crashes and accidents should get attention too, but i'm an anti-deletionist, so what do I know. :-) KBrown (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
You know, it's been several years since I've actively edited Misplaced Pages, but I saw this and decided to haul my butt out of obscurity. It's this sort of thing, amongst several others, that drives people away from active editing (such as myself!). This crash has been reported by several major news agencies and is all over Google's News site. It's a major event. And yet, we're *already* talking about deleting the article! Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a near-endless fountain of knowledge. I can understand deleting things that add no value (like biographies of, oh, your neighbor's cat) but come on.
This isn't aimed personally towards you, Quicksilver, but it IS a trend at Misplaced Pages that goes against what the encylopedia used to stand for back in my editing and admin/bureaucratic days. At the *very* least let it have its own article for a few weeks and THEN maybe we can talk about merging it. Linuxbeak (The cake is a lie!) 19:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Galloping Ghost: specific versus type of airplane?
It took several reads of the article before I convinced myself that "The Galloping Ghost" was a specific plane, rather than a nickname for the P-51D in general. I'm not sure how, but it would be good to make this more clear. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 12:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Mayday called?
Please note that while the aircraft did pull up as normal when one 'maydays' as of this moment no one knows for sure if Mr. Leeward actually made a Mayday call. I was at the races and I did not hear one called. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.195.201.121 (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Merge The Galloping Ghost airplane & Jimmy Leeward into 2011 Reno Air Races crash
To continue my thoughts on Galloping Ghost as type or specific airplane, I propose that the newly-created article on the specific plane be merged into this article. The only reason the plane appears in Misplaced Pages is this crash; nobody will be looking up the plane itself without knowing about Reno. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 12:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The two articles should definitely be merged. The Galloping Ghost page was started the day after crash. There are only a few sentences to be merged into the crash article, anyway. The plane itself was not particularly important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.129.188 (talk) 15:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. This was a heavily modified airplane that in fact was certified as an experimental aircraft. To a pilot, or someone that is involved in aviation, the plane will become a subject of considerable concern, once the NTSB issues its crash report(s). The plane, the pilot and the tragic event are each worthy of consideration. I am a pilot and have been to reno & the other aircraft already have pages on Misplaced Pages: Cite error: There are
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). as a example. Fact is this aircraft was only just brought back into the racing after years of "rest" and restoration. The pages should NOT be merged.WPPilot 15:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. This was a heavily modified airplane that in fact was certified as an experimental aircraft. To a pilot, or someone that is involved in aviation, the plane will become a subject of considerable concern, once the NTSB issues its crash report(s). The plane, the pilot and the tragic event are each worthy of consideration. I am a pilot and have been to reno & the other aircraft already have pages on Misplaced Pages: Cite error: There are
- Speculating that it may become notable is not enough. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Could someone post the relevent wikipedia policies and guideline for this kind of thing - they're too hard to find for anyone who doesn't already know where to look. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Ask and you will receive. There are no specific guidelines for airplanes, so the general guidelines apply; see Misplaced Pages:Notability. The crash was clearly an "event", for which there are specific guidelines; see Misplaced Pages:Notability (events). HairyWombat 17:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Support merge At this point, most of the airplane article is just a replica of this article. If it does become notable later, with more specific coverage by the NTSB and others, then an article can be spun out on it. But, for now, it should be a section in this article. Silverseren 16:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- The plane like the other planes that were in the race already have, needs its own page. If you were involved in aviation or a pilot you would agree, unconditionally. WPPilot 16:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC) User talk:WPPilot
A question: if this plane hadn't crashed, would it be important enough to have its own Misplaced Pages article? Being "heavily modified" is certainly not sufficient; if that were the case then we'd need thousands (millions?) of articles on various cars/planes/boats/houses that had been so. (Do note that the airplane's article was only created after the crash.)
If the primary (or even only) justification for giving this plane its own article is the crash, then the plane should be described in the context of the crash's article, and does not need its own. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- The plane was a modified P-51. The modifications were so significant that it became its own "Type" of airplane under the experimental class. Some of the modifications included reduction of the wings and controls. This is one of the most significant aviation racing event that has taken place in over a hundred years of flight. The data regarding the plane, the modifications and its "history" will continue to grow as other editors contribute. That would overwhelm this story in no time whatsoever and imho it already has. This story has a few short lines and the story about the plane is now providing reference links to the reporting media, with background about the plane. WPPilot 16:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Comment In the past 24 hours, articles have been created for 2011 Reno Air Races crash, The Galloping Ghost airplane and Jimmy Leeward. There is no joined up thinking here, and too much has been written with one eye on the rolling TV news coverage. WP:RECENTISM needs to be taken into account.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Support merge I don't see any need for additional articles that can fill a single paragraph in this article. It may have been interesting that the aircraft was modified, but that does not mean it warrants its own article. For example, look at the 1973 Paris Air Show crash. There is an article for the kind of aircraft the prototype Tupolev Tu-144 was built as, but they don't have a page for every conceivable matter relevant for the subject. DarthBotto talk•cont 18:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Oppose merge of Jimmy Leeward. He is notable in his own right, even if he hadn't died in the Reno crash. 75.177.156.87 (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Wait for more information The accident is certainly notable in its own right due to the fatalities (see WP:AIRCRASH). I'm not sure yet on the pilot or the airplane. The pilot appeared in several movies and was an apparently wealthy real-estate entrepreneur. Right now his article is a classic WP:BLP1E but it'll take more digging to find out for sure. The airplane had a long race history so it might too be notable in its own right depending on where it raced and if it ever won a major title. We really don't know yet. So for now, let's let the details on the ground sort themselves out and we'll have this discussion in full once we have a more complete picture of both the accident, the pilot, and the airplane. N419BH 20:34, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm also wondering whether the aircraft and the pilot would indeed be notable by themselves. Let's wait a little to see if someone can find information confirming their notability. Nanobear (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support merges No need for three separate articles. Reywas92 21:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose merge Currently, it is too soon to decide to merge the three articles together, especally into an article that currently has less information than one of the other three articles. I suggest that we should wait for now as there is no clear reason to merge the articles besides to save space. 204.106.252.64 (talk) 00:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose merge of Jimmy Leeward - I do not see why we should reduce a person with several IMDb entries to the last tragic moments of his life.
- Support merge of The Galloping Ghost - no indication of notability besides the accident. No speed records, no military history, nothing. Just another customized vehicle. -- Theoprakt (talk) 03:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Merge all - as far as bio goes, no one has anything on him prior to 1982, when he started Leeward, and then it's all of one sentence. After that, there's a bunch of vague material on "various stunt credits", and then his death. As for the plane, the most we have is that it was a heavily modified P-51. Their notability as topics stems entirely from the events of the air crash, and do not stand up to GNG in their own right. MSJapan (talk) 05:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- ' - The only reason that there is one sentence is that I am not the best writer at times. I did not want to repeat what the article said so I wrote a little and added the references so someone who was a better writer could improve it. 204.106.252.64 (talk) 05:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- 'Support aircraft merge and Oppose bio merge - The person seems notable enough for Misplaced Pages, but the plane itself probably isn't.--King Bedford I 05:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Crashed into spectators?
Is this confirmed? I've watched six different videos and it appears that the aircraft impacted the terrain near the spectators. Flying debris and shrapnel appears to have caused the injuries.
--98.154.160.152 (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it hit the box seats. N419BH 20:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Trim tab lost before crash?
This flight Global page, http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/09/17/362192/reno-found-component-could-be-p-51d-elevator-trim-tab.html may be of interest. 220.101.30.184 (talk) 22:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I would personally like to see more information. Videos show the horizontal stabilizer flapping away. Whether that was the cause...I will let the NTSB decide and not speculate on the matter myself. Trista 24.176.191.234 (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree. 220.101.30.184 (talk) 23:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I would personally like to see more information. Videos show the horizontal stabilizer flapping away. Whether that was the cause...I will let the NTSB decide and not speculate on the matter myself. Trista 24.176.191.234 (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Terminology
Early in this article are the phrases, " . . . the plane rounded up . . . and then rounded down . . . ." The use of "rounded" here is meaningless as an aviation term and grammatically. The plane may be said to have pitched up or to have pulled up. After it rolled inverted it fell into the vertical and impacted the tarmac.
75.64.231.154 (talk) 22:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)-A private pilot
- It's too early to say it "fell into the vertical" as that would imply no control and we don't know yet. The aircraft pitched up, rolled inverted, then pitched down and impacted terrain. Also, there appears to be a piece missing from the tail surfaces. That's all we know. N419BH 23:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)