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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

• This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
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• Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session.
• Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc.

If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

• This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
• For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

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Spore (2008 video game) (Example case)

(Example post)

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? (Please provide a few diffs if this is regarding conduct and ensure that you have discussed the issues on a talk page first.)

• Me and Example (talk · contribs) are having a bit of a dispute about an article, Spore (2008 video game). Some of the references in the article support the genre being a god game, others support the genre being a life simulation or a simulation game. I think we need to come with a way to have both listed in the article, as all references seem reliable.

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• Steven Zhang (talk · contribs), Example (talk · contribs)

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

• I have tried talking about the issue with Example on the article talk page, but I need some extra input on what I can do here to move forward with resolving this dispute, as there are numerous sources supporting the different genres.

• What can we do to help resolve this issue?

• Direct me to ways to resolve this dispute, or where I can get assistance in resolving the dispute. We need to come up with a compromise as how to move forward with the article. Steven Zhang

Discussion

Resolution

The dispute at hand seems to be to me that there are multiple possible genres to the article, and many sources backing up the different genres, however the issue of which genre best fits is still an issue. A mediation cabal case might be useful here, the assistance of a third party editor could assist in working out a compromise that works well. Steven Zhang

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Haven (TV series) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I am dealing with an editor who has done a lot of work on Haven (TV series) and Haven-related articles, and am encountering a lot of resistance to changes. I am not going to go so far as to suggest an OWNership issue, but it's swiftly moving in that direction.

To whit, the editor seeks to include just about every reference to the works of Stephen King alluded to in the series (which is a lot, but at least three editors thus far have considered it a load of trivia). I sought to bridge the gap and stop the revert-warring (of which I was admittedly a part) by converting the list to prose and trimming out all but the more prominent references. I even found two citable reference to X-Files, which the editor removed. Indeed, the editor went right up to the "electric fence" yesterday, and flat out drove over it today (eight reverts). The recent edits by the author seem like sour grapes, and I am running out of ideas on how to respond.
I need a little help, because I am starting to lose patience, and am trying very hard not to lose my patience.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Ihutchesson (talk · contribs)
• Jack Sebastian (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes. (Clerk-ish note by Danger (talk))

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Haven (TV series)}} --~~~~ on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have sought to engage the user in both usertalk page dialog (regarding interpersonal frictions) as well as the more conventional article discussion page. I have also reworked the material to reflect the larger portion of what the other user wants up to the limits of concensus, but they insist on including every bit of information they have ever added to the article as far as references to Stephen King's works are concerned. Additionally, the user doesn't seem to understand NOT, OWN, RS or AGF to a degree consistent with communal editing. I'm at my wits' end; I was going to report the user's behavior at AN/I, and it was suggested that I seek to resolve the matter here first.

• How do you think we can help?

Not sure you can, but if you cannot, its off to the AN/I page for more stringent measures that don't really involve a happy resolution for at least one of the users here.

Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Haven (TV series) discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I see this dispute has made its way to AN3. Let's wait to hear the outcome of that discussion before deciding anything here. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm actually thinking of the exact opposite idea: The AN3 report should be put aside to see where this heads. Blocking people who are trying to talk things out (such as they are supposed to do here at DRN) is a bad way to encourage consensus building and dialog; even if one technically violated WP:3RR, if it is clear that they are interested in talking going forward, it is better not to block and instead encourage discussion. --Jayron32 05:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Jayron here; I filed the AN3R report because i was getting fed up with the reverts and eight (reverts) - as they saying goes - is enough. If Ihutchesson puts forth a serious effort within the next day (that time frame so the AN3R doesn't go stale while the other user waits it out) to resovle the problem, I'm all for dropping the report. I don't want to have blocked a user willing to work within a group. I haven't the slightest problem with blocking anyone trying to OWN something against consensus. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree that talking things out is better than handing out blocks if both sides are willing to participate. I suggested waiting for two reasons - this board isn't supposed to be used for disputes that have been brought up elsewhere, and also because it is hard to engage in reasoned discussion when there is a threat of a block hanging over your head. Let's put the AN3 discussion on hold if Ihutchesson indicates his willingness to participate here, so that we can have a proper discussion here without being distracted by it. I'll leave a message at AN3 to this effect as well. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I need to comment here. The first edit by Jack Sebastian was the reduction of a section comprising a paragraph and a series of dot-pointed references to Stephen King works (see here) to the paragraph and one dot point (here). This edit was done ostensibly for lack of citations and the claim of original research. I returned much of the material, supplying relevant reliable sources, ie the company that provides the program. The editor proceeded to revert to his edit three times.

• .

He finally made a constructive edit, which I took this as a positive step. I then removed a piece of trivia about X-Files being mentioned in the show, which the editor tried to justify by offering user-edited material as his sources.

I then responded with my own version in two steps reinserting what I considered the more useful of the excised material, ie leaving much of it out. Yet above he makes this strange assertion: "the editor seeks to include just about every reference to the works of Stephen King alluded to in the series".

Jack Sebastian reverted to his last constructive edit three times instead of another constructive edit showing a willingness to compromise to find consensus.

As I have said to the editor, I have no personal interest in the Stephen King material: I don't find him a noteworthy writer. I didn't put much of the material there, merely attempted to give some coherence to it by adding the introduction and editing the material. However, the show is steeped in elements that draw on his work, so, if one is going to have a section that deals with it, it needs to be non-trivial.

Jack Sebastian seems to have taken ownership of the section and will not be guided by the protocols of WP:BRD. He has taken me to task twice for being ready to violate 3RR (see my talk page), while having made the first of each revert sequence.

In the last few days I have received more user talk from Jack Sebastian than I have from everyone else for the rest of the three years I've been editing. The last comment re 3RR came less than an hour before the editor decided he had to lodge this dispute. What I am dealing with here is hard to understand as the simple matter of an editing conflict.

• How do you think we can help?

I also am not sure. I was looking for an administrator who might discuss the matter, when this dispute resolution was lodged. I feel that there is difficulty understanding the notion of compromise, especially in the editing process, ie a reversion to before the last constructive edit is not Wiki compromise in any sense.

Perhaps, a few objective opinions on the matter might help us both. -- Ihutchesson (talk) 06:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, an objective opinion might be better served with the right information going in, Ian. On another page (where you essentially duplicated your post from ther to here), you asked why the matter had been brought to AN3R. I replied that the answer was obvious, but I am beginning to suspect that those policies and guidelines that the rest of us follow and more or less adhere to are largely unknown to you. I had assumed that because you have created over a dozen Haven- and Stephen King-based pages that you were aware of them, but I guess I was wrong.

And yeah, I just pointed out how your claim to have "no personal interest in the King material" was at best misleading and at worst a flat-out lie designed to make you look like some innocent waif being put upon. As well, your comment about me having received more user talk than you, having edited for over three years is indeed misleading - you've logged less than 1650 edits in almost five years. I've logged almost twice that in less than five months. Of course I am going to have more discussions, and you want to know why? It's because I talk to people I am editing with! I do not presume that it is easier to receive forgiveness than permission.

That is what makes me feel that there is an OWNership issue here, Ian. You don't want anyone changing or removing material that you added, and you aren't prepared to discuss anything less than complete inclusion of said material.

As for the content, I offered a compromise edit which would include the most obvious (read: explicit) references to works by Stephen King. I'd left out the rest because they were trivial. Two others editors agreed, and yet you kept speaking about some vast consensus that demanded every crufty detail be shoehorned into the article. Yet, they have been nowhere to be seen. It's only you, demanding that these bits (and nothing from a double sourced reference about the X-Files) be included. I think that is what got me reverting; the idea that you would not only fight to preserve nonsensical trivia, but would actively work to remove information that was well cited and interesting.

I am going to note this again here: I've seen the links you've supplied about the connections to the series. They all come from Syfy.com's website for the series. All use a type of pop-up video to point out the references, no matter how obscure. You are forgetting that just because something can be cited, that it belongs in the article. It does not. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I think you are offering non-notable information as if it were the Sermon on the Mount. It offers undue weight as to the importance of this information and, coupled with your side explanations explaining the references, serves to render the information largely unusable by Misplaced Pages.

But I've already pointed this out to you several times, both on your talk page and in article discussion. I am not sure if you don't get it, are misinterpreting it, or are seeking a new standard of your own devising. I only know it isn't what we use here. You lack of willingness to admit that you handled this entire matter extremely badly makes me wonder if a dispute can be resolved. You think you are blameless in this entire matter, and no dispute can be resolved with such a person. Unless something comes along rather apologetic from you, I an, I am not holding out hope of this ending well. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 08:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I have some advice for both of you before we start: please keep your posts short. Very long posts do not make for productive discussion. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius 10:00, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

My second thought is that we need to determine the reliability of the sources being used. Having a look through the reliable sources noticeboard archives, eeggs.com was regarded as being basically a self-published source, so we can't use it. Some of TV.com's material is written by staff writers, so using that may be ok, but the material in question here is from a user-generated portion of the site, which we definitely cannot use. Syfy hasn't come up yet on the noticeboard, and I'm not sure if it would be permissible or not. I can't find anything on how they generate their material or their editorial process, but the videos in question do look like they are produced by staff, and I see that they also have a magazine which is a good sign that they have an editorial board which vets facts. I think I'll make a new post on the reliable sources noticeboard and see what the reaction is. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I have made a new thread at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Syfy.com about this. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:45, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies. I missed the fact that Syfy are the producers of Haven, which was pointed out to me very nicely by the people at the reliable sources board. That means we can use it with the restrictions in WP:PRIMARY - namely, we can use it to cite straightforward facts, but not any interpretation of those facts. This brings us to what we should be including in the article. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, so we want to be comprehensive, but on the other hand, we want to avoid any lists of trivia, and we don't want to give any aspect of the show undue weight. This still gives us quite a bit of leeway in what we can include, and the exact final wording should be determined by consensus. I personally wouldn't mind a few more paragraphs on influences from other works, as long as it doesn't descend into a list of trivia. What are your thoughts on how the section should look? — Mr. Stradivarius 13:09, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Knowing that Syfy is a primary source, would you like to comment now on the version of the disputed material as I had here ("Stephen King in Haven")? Are there any problems in the edit when compared with the version found here ("References to other works")? Thanks. -- Ihutchesson (talk) 22:43, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I think that it is basically good material. The Stephen King material is not just trivia, as it is linked to two main points about the series - that it is based on The Colorado Kid, and that It is a favourite of the Haven producers. I would be careful, though, to make sure that the only things sourced to Syfy are facts that can be verified by the videos themselves. For example, I would change "The scene can be found in the opening chapter of the book" to "According to Syfy, the scene can be found in the opening chapter of the book".

I also see no reason that we can't change the section heading and add material about other shows, as long as we can find a reliable source that says they take references from other shows too, and as long as it doesn't become a trivia list. I think it is possible to have a couple of examples without it becoming trivia-like. If we can find the sources for this, I would say we could add both your and Jack Sebastian's material together - this is not necessarily a "one or the other" situation. — Mr. Stradivarius 13:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm actually a scholar so references are rather clear to me. (See the scholarly article I work on, Qumran.) I think I'd be adding "according to Syfy" for most things, if you'd make the change you suggest. Syfy actually says--among other things regarding the scene--, "the paper boat is a direct reference to the famous opening scene from Stephen King's IT".

I have no real objection to the Fox Mulder reference, though it is pure trivia. For me the issue was the imbalance of including that while leaving out more substantive materials. -- Ihutchesson (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Questions re Haven edit

Questions for Jack Sebastian:

1. Assuming you can find reliable sources for the material, why do you want to include the X-Files trivia? Should we also include the Star Trek reference to a tricorder as well in episode 201? If not, why not?
2. What is wrong with the King material that I inserted that shows that King influence is not merely trappings but at times integral to the plot?
3. What problem do you have with noting that the King book "It" is a popular source for material in the series, along with a few examples, and is acknowledged by Syfy?

The first issue involves whether the X-Files reference has any serious value to the show, while the other two deal with material that I consider useful for people to know about the series.

If we are left with a section that is about King's influence on the series and its writers and about 99% of the total references are to King, what is wrong with calling the section "Stephen King in Haven"? The title presently used is "References to other works" an invitation to trivia and not very indicative of the contents when it is mostly about Stephen King anyway except for an overlong piece of trivia concerning an oblique reference to Fox Mulder. -- Ihutchesson (talk) 12:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, been away in the real world, caring for a kid. I also felt the need to disengage for a bit, to fight off various impulses to decimate. In answer to your questions:

1. I think that using sourced references about subjects from outside the Stephen King milieu indicate that the program is more than a one-trick pony. There are references to other shows and such, and the ones we can note are those who pay homage to those other shows. Haven has been called (rightly so, imo) by several sources the inheritor of The X-Files, and noting a reference to that is not inappropriate. I will concede that the Eegg.com reference isn't that good, but the TV.com one is pretty rock solid. Lastly, passing references to things like tricorders (or bic lighters or beer - all of which appear in the series) are inherently inconsequential, as they have no impact on the background of the characters or in the development of the plot. That is the deciding factor to what goes and what stays, really.
2. The problem with including every little reference to King's body of work is threefold. Firstly, there is the tendency to connect the dots between the source material and the present material - a no-no. Secondly, there is the tendency to get top-heavy with the references, which clutter up the article. A further factor in favor of limiting the references is that they can easily be explored by interested readers by following the show link at the bottom of the article. That's sorta the way its been done forever. Thirdly, it is your interpretation that some of these sources are integral to the plot.
3. A cinematographic choice to use a kid chasing after a boat in the gutter before it goes down the drain which does not end in that kid being pulled into the drain by a murderous clown does not constitute an integral part of the episode or series. If a source explicitly states that these sorts of common set-ups and shots are used through out the series, then we can use it. Not before, and not anything less than an explicit source to that effect - this is key. We do not decide what is integral - a source does. To do so is both Original Research and Synthesis. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the TV.com source, it is an obviously user-generated source, as there are edit links beside the quotes. This makes it unusable as a source for us. I hope you will agree that using someone else's user-generated content to verify our user-generated content has an obvious logical flaw. More on your other points later. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Impulses to decimate seem to be a problem you have evinced regarding this article. Your first removal of material I had to describe as a "destructive edit".

1. Opinions about connections to X-Files are irrelevant. How many times is X-Files referenced in the 22 episodes of Haven? Has more than 5 seconds of all episodes been spent on them? Even if you find a reliable source for the issue, it is still just plain "inherently inconsequential".
2. It is simply false to make the accusation that I want to include "every little reference to King's body of work". It in no way reflects my last constructive edit on the issue. When plots revolve around characters which embody ideas from King, such as someone with pyrokinesis or the ability to disappear from sight (these are just two more examples), then it is not difficult to conclude that they are integral to the plot and the references from Syfy confirm this. Claims of OR and SYN are baseless. The citations should make that clear.
3. You confuse issues when you refer to the drain scene as being claimed as integral to the plot. It was never claimed as such, but as emblematic of the writers' use of It, a use noted by Syfy.

If you have nothing else to offer, can my work be put back, please? -- IHutchesson ► 22:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

1. I flatly disagree with you that a reference to X-Files would be inconsequential. I will, however grant that a good enough source has not popped up yet. It was a reference that wasn't from King's works, and so it is notable in and of itself. When someone citable notes that, its going back in, simple as that.
2. Fact: prior to my initial edit, your bullet-pointed section included over 13 references to works by Stephen King (which is pretty amazing for someone who claims no special interest in his material). My collaborative edit sought to note only the most significant three references that were integral to the show. My statement at "Many other, less noticeable references occur in the form of street names and scenes reminiscent of either books by King or films cased upon said works" is more than enough of a nod to the rest of them that the reader can explore on their own by exploring the show link at the bottom of the article. Your last "useful" edit added 8 more references to the section bringing the total to 11, While this is two shy of what it was before, I think it fairly proves my point. You are seeking to re-add these same trivial references to the same section.

And lets look at some of these references you wish to include: you think that the episode using pyrokinesis is a reference to Firestarter. Could it not just as well be a reference to just about any episode of The Last Airbender or the aptly-named episode of the X-Files called Fire? Invisible assailants? Golly, for invisibility we have Misfits, and no less than three X-Files episodes: "Excelsis Dei", "Fearful Symmetry" and "Detour". X-Files had several "dark man" adversaries - one of which was actually made of dark matter! I could present as many examples as you can, but the thrust of my reasoning is simple: the crux of your argument (and I thank you for putting it into words) is "...then it is not difficult to conclude...". You cannot conclude or surmise of extrapolate anything. Period. And hiding behind the same source at Syfy is repetitive. You can use a few, but not all. It becomes redundant, esp. when there is a link to each one of your pet points.

1. It is one thing to sate that the series' creators like It. It is quite another to claim that it is "emblematic" of the writers' use in the series. That typification is one which you believe there to be. Using that reasoning, we should include the X-Files-related conversation because it is emblematic to refer to works outside of Haven. It isn't called a slippery slope for nothing. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

This is a good example of your spirit of compromise: "When someone citable notes that, its going back in, simple as that." You don't listen to others. Your ideas are just as fixed as this. That's why you revert rather than enter into the editing dialogue to find consensus.

Much of what you say are false accusations. There is no point in continuing them (unless you insist).

If you want to include references to Airbender or Misfits or whatever, all you need do is provide reliable sources for the connections (as I have done) and defend your claims of relevance and significance. Syfy is happy to acknowledge Firestarter as the source for the character's ability. They should know.

You are arguing about two insertions I made to the rewrite you made of the section. They were 1) a sentence about the fact that King books supplied plot essential ideas and 2) a paragraph which talked of the fact that It is a favorite source of the series writers and producers. I don't seek to put all those bulleted points back into the text. Your aggression and exaggeration are misdirected. -- I.Hutchesson ► 08:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The point is not who is right and wrong. The point is that edit warring is prohibited by Misplaced Pages policy. Do you deny that you have been edit warring? Heimstern Läufer (talk) 09:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

When you start talking of denial you already seem to have an opinion. If edit warring is repeatedly overriding each other's contributions, I'd like to hear your view of the matter. -- Ihutchesson (talk) 05:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You do not see your behavior as even wrong. I find that boggling, and rather indicative of the sorts of users who contribute usefully for a bit and then flame out when they feel their brilliance isn't appreciated enough by the plebeian masses. Here is the short of it:

• you do not appear to be interested in compromise;otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to re-add the same, trivial cruft over and over again,
• you are either incapable of seeing that you are doing this, or are lying about doing the aforementioned; why else claim you aren't? Why claim you do not have an interest that it's provably clear that you have?
• you came to DRN looking to point out how I'm a horrible little vandalizing monkey and you were 200% right all along; why else keep fighting at AN3R when it was politely suggested at least twice to get lost?

Considering these factors, I am not sure how DR is going to work. I've compromised enough; I'll wait for a better X-Files citation before re-adding the info to the article. I recognize that I should have been more thick-skinned when the other user reverted like doing so was worth a dollar, failing to use the talk page. I readily admit to allowing the other user to goad me along.
I still oppose the addition of tons of crufty information which does not improve the article and keeps it from being anywhere near GA quality. I still oppose dealing with people who have every appearance of not being entirely candid about their motives. And lastly, an apology for any petty slights the other user might have felt injured by will not be forthcoming; they have given umbrage far more than they have received, and it has been an increasingly heroic effort of will to not tell the user to kindly go off and perform a sexual impossibility with themselves. Without the other use drastically readdressing how they deal with me and the article, I'm afraid this DR isn't going to work. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Rhetoric aside, in the blue collapse bar below ("Stephen King editing data") I showed that I was not responsible for the King references themselves. When you (and ThuranX) removed nearly all of them ostensibly for lack of citations, I put most back with citations, as per the request. Somehow you translated that into my wanting King trivia. After you reverted that edit three times, you made a substantive edit, which allowed the editing process to move forward. I edited that and you again reverted three times, claiming I wanted to include "every little reference to King's body of work". In reality, beside removing the X-Files material my edit put two insertions into the article. "They were 1) a sentence about the fact that King books supplied plot essential ideas and 2) a paragraph which talked of the fact that It is a favorite source of the series writers and producers." Here is the edit:

(Red: insertion; Green: cut)

Several allusions to the written works of author Stephen King are made in the series regularly; the series itself being based upon King's novella, "The Colorado Kid". On Syfy's Haven website, many of these references are pointed out as they occur in each episode. For example, Derry and the titular Haven are both fictional cities in Maine previously used in the author's stories. Other references abound: one of the main characters receives a copy of a novel written by a character from King's novel, Misery, while another character has just been released from Shawshank Prison. In some cases the plot of an episode revolves around an idea from the work of King: a character who has visions on touching people, but is unable to act upon them; or plants that start killing people. Many other, less noticeable references occur in the form of street names, characters and scenes reminiscent of either books by King or films based upon said works.

Syfy notes, "It is a particular favorite Stephen King book for the Haven writers and producers". For example, in "A Tale of Two Audreys", a little boy in a yellow rain slicker is seen outside the church chasing a newspaper boat that he has set in the stream in the gutter. He chases until it falls down into a stormdrain on Witcham Street. He then sticks his right arm down into the drain and screams. The scene can be found in the opening chapter of the book. Also derived from It, episode "Fear and Loathing" revolves around a Troubled person who (unwillingly) takes the form of a person's worst fear, and in one instance appears as a clown, a visual allusion to Pennywise of the film version of It.

As well, at least one reference has been made to the 1993-2002 FOX television series, The X-Files. One of the characters, an FBI agent, mentions a "spooky" agent who believed in UFO's and aliens. Another character states that he thought the guy was onto something, but that he went too far around the bend during the last few years, a reference to Fox Mulder, a lead character from that series.

I've argued that the X-Files material is pure trivia that reflects a few seconds of the whole series, while the drain scene from It alone occupies more time than all the non-King allusions in the series combined. And that scene is mentioned because it reflects a stated and cited preference of the writers and producers of the show for the book. This is the context for the mention of the Pennywise appearance. Besides It, the only other material inserted regarded the cited fact that the plots of some episodes revolve around an idea from the work of King and I cite two, though there are more. And naturally Syfy is a primary source for knowledge on Haven, being responsible for the show.

The edit, which built on yours, shows that I don't want to include "every little reference to King's body of work". I have attempted to show the relevance of the material. I think you need to justify why you reverted my edit and continue to oppose it. It's not a matter of citations. It's not a matter of excessive King trivia. It's not a matter of OR or SYNTH, as the citations demonstrate. What exactly is wrong with the edit? -- I.Hutchesson ► 22:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, after you said, 'your claim to have "no personal interest in the King material" was at best misleading and at worst a flat-out lie', do you now accept that your statement is false?

Most of those who added substantive material concerning Stephen King references:

• 27/07/11 99.88.187.25

==References to Stephen King's other works==

• In the opening sequence, a newspaper article on "Reverend Flagg" is a reference to Randall Flagg, a recurring villan in The Dark Tower series by Stephen King.
• The episode "Fear and Loathing" revolves around a Troubled person who can take the form of a person's worst fear, appears as a clown to Audrey Parker, directly referencing King's novel It.
• In the episode, "Love Machine", machines start to come to life and kill people, a direct reference to King's short story, Trucks.

• 31/07/11 Elizabennet

' and also to King's novel Christine.

• In the episode "As You Were", Audrey Parker receives a copy of the novel Misery Unchained ("signed by the author just before that lady chopped off his foot"), a reference to King's novel Misery.

• The episode "As You Were" contains several references to King's novel The Shining, starting with the storyline (a group of people are trapped in an abandoned, isolated hotel with a murderous, supernatural entity). The 1980 film version is referenced several times in the props and set, including a fire axe and a bright red tricycle.

• 02/08/11 Summerhaunt

Randall Flagg is also the villain in Stephen King's novel "The Stand".

• 03/08/11 174.60.64.205

• In the episode "The Hand You're Dealt" a Troubled person has the ability of Pyrokinesis. This is a reference to King's novel Firestarter.

• 05/08/11 174.60.64.205

• In the episode "Ain't No Sunshine" the shadow that kills people is called the Dark Man. This is a reference to a poem written by King called The Dark Man.

• 19/08/11 Mfstock

• In the episode "The Hand You're Dealt" a character describes lobster monsters that came out of the water which is a reference to the "lobstrosities" in King's second book in the Dark Tower series.

I didn't start editing the material until 16/08/11 . You have no good reason for asserting anything about my interest in Stephen King or lack thereof. I would appreciate a retraction. -- I.Hutchesson ► 05:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

^--- The above put back in its correct location after the following refactoring. -- I.Hutchesson ► 00:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Tactless, yes. False, absolutely not. You've created over a dozen articles on the series that are - by any reasonable assessment - dripping with references to King's works. Your actions shout much louder than I ever could about your involvement and personal in Haven and King-related material. If you are looking for an apology for calling a spade a spade, you will be a very long time waiting. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in your tactlessness here, though it is endemic of your behavior. I am interested in your false claims. You cite pages I have created and state here that "in a dozen articles on the series that are - by any reasonable assessment - dripping with references to King's works". This is another bogus claim. Please show your reasonable assessment of even one of these dozen pages listed in your link that are "dripping with references to King's works". Otherwise, retract that too. -- I.Hutchesson ► 08:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Fundamentally, I'm trying to get you to develop your claim by asking for some substance, as it is seems to motivate your reaction to my last good edit. -- I.Hutchesson ► 22:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Discussions on this page should be focused on the issues brought here. Issues should be raised in a concise, calm, and civilized manner. It is not a new forum to list "beefs" about another editor. Off-topic or non-productive discussions can be closed after due warning, as the board is designed to diffuse disputes, not escalate them.

Agreed. This discussion requires you both to be open to the other's point of view. If you feel that you can't post here without things getting personal, then I recommend taking a break for a while. Taking a break might put things in a different light and make things go much more smoothly when you come back. — Mr. Stradivarius 14:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, here's my point of view, sans the interplay from before. I think there are far too many references to Stephen King's works, which serves to clutter it up. We should note the most explicit ones, mention that there are numerous others within the series, which the interested user can explore through the External links. I did precisely that, trimming the number of external link - thirteen in total, and all from the same web source - to three. This would seem to be the most concise, best way to proceed. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You are still really at the dot points here. We have moved on to the next edits, your edits leading to this text and my subsequent edits which culminated in the form here, which you removed three times without actually entering into a discussion of the material and by that I mean you talked a lot but didn't exchange ideas at all. Would you please engage now with my comment above starting with the words "Rhetoric aside" and especially the two paragraphs after the first blue bar. Thank you. -- I.Hutchesson ► 06:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that we have had an awful lot of discussion but not got an awful lot done. I think a change of venue might be appropriate - would both of you be willing to undergo informal mediation? There is no obligation to undergo further mediation at all, but I think that in this case it might be useful. What do you think? — Mr. Stradivarius 11:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Granted, I started out this process pretty pissed off. At this point, I am pretty much tired of dealing with the user. I'm personally a fan of mediation, but it only works when both people want to find a middle ground. I don;t see the other user looking for a middle ground.

I think that taking the matter to another page will only entrench the other user's opinions about his edits. At the risk of reopening a can of worms, three different editors feel the material was trivial, and only Ian didn't believe it was. To reiterate, prior to my compromise edit, there were 12 individual references to King's work. After my edit, there were three. Shortly thereafter (and up to Ian's last edit), that number had shot back up to 11 references. All of them taken from the same website's pop-up video. I've already pointed out that too much is too much. I think my edit is pretty solid in and of itself. I'll concede that if the info about IT being a favorite of the producers/writers/etc. could be cited better, I'd be far more comfortable having the info about specific visual references to that film. Without it, I think my edit covers it, and welcome any uninvolved editor to weigh the two. Actually, i think that's what is really needed here, not mediation. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The beginning of the dispute is of little concern to discussion of more recent edits. We are dealing with a later stage of the article. If you thought that the It material could have been improved on, then you should have attempted to provide an edit which improved the material, rather than simply reverting it. It is included below. How would you "fix" it?

Syfy notes, "It is a particular favorite Stephen King book for the Haven writers and producers". For example, in "A Tale of Two Audreys", a little boy in a yellow rain slicker is seen outside the church chasing a newspaper boat that he has set in the stream in the gutter. He chases until it falls down into a stormdrain on Witcham Street. He then sticks his right arm down into the drain and screams. The scene can be found in the opening chapter of the book. Also derived from It, episode "Fear and Loathing" revolves around a Troubled person who (unwillingly) takes the form of a person's worst fear, and in one instance appears as a clown, a visual allusion to Pennywise of the film version of It. "Haven Stephen King References: A Tale of Two Audreys". Syfy. Retrieved 12 September 2011. "Haven Stephen King References: Fear and Loathing". Syfy. Retrieved 12 September 2011.

You have said nothing about the sentence dealing with material on which plots revolve you reverted:

In some cases the plot of an episode revolves around an idea from the work of King: a character who has visions on touching people, but is unable to act upon them; or plants that start killing people. The plot of "The Hand You're Dealt", derived from The Dead Zone. "Haven Stephen King References: The Hand You're Dealt". Syfy. Retrieved 12 September 2011. The plot of "Roots", inspired by "Weeds". "Haven Stephen King References: Roots". Syfy. Retrieved 12 September 2011.

The citations show both the relevance and the importance: King's influence on the writers is far from trivial and it is frequently acknowledged. Other than non-functional claims of OR and SYNTH (shown not to be relevant if one sees the citations), why is this sentence not worthy to be included, given that it was reverted three times? -- I.Hutchesson ► 04:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, Ian - find another source. You keep pushing the Syfy source. It's a one-trick pony, with no provenance as to where the information is coming from. It could be a marketing hack making it up, for all we know. If this information is so very vital to an understanding of the series, then surely other, reliable notable sources have said something about the producers' bonder for the series. All I am saying about that particular reference is: find it.

The character Troubles bearing similarities to characters in other King stories isn't important, unless you are saying that Johnny Smith (the psychometrist/clairavoyant from Dead Zone) was totally plagiarized for use in Haven. See where this is going? You are connecting the two using a pop-up video source who's source you cannot identify. If the video disappears, you are left holding the bag. If a reviewer notes the similarities, that shoukld easily be found.

In short, I think the pop-up video source from Syfy is crappy. We have no idea who the person is adding the notes. It could be some high school intern for all we know. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Please read what you are supposed to be responding to. I have been trying to get a response from you many times about not only the It material, but also the plot significant matters. And Mr Stradivarius has clarified the value of Syfy as a reliable source, being the producers of the show.

As to the complaint about The Dead Zone, you still have not reviewed the sources, otherwise you would have read this comment about Vanessa's affliction: 'This ability references Johnny Smith from King's "The Dead Zone". Johnny, like Vanessa in this episode, becomes preoccupied with trying to prevent something he has seen.' Next time, check the sources rather than erring. So, you've tried citations, then trivia, then OR and SYNTH and now you are complaining about my use of a primary source. -- I.Hutchesson ► 07:47, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Star of Bethlehem (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

4 months ago I added references from the Book of Mormon to the Star of Bethlehem, consistent with material both inside the article ("Eastern Orthodoxy") and outside (John the Baptist; Tower of Babel). I wrote it in an admittedly awkward spot simply because I didn't know where it belonged on the page. Shortly afterward, the user Rbreen edited it out with the argument that no "serious" person would ever consider a reliable source. I undid that edit, and he rewrote the section into the bottom of the page. One month later, he came back and removed it completely.

During this time, I started a discussion on the talk page to which he replied when he completely removed the section for the last time. I replied to his reply, but the discussion has been dormant ever since.

After waiting a month, I went back and added it back under a more relevant section, but about a week later the user at 80.240.225.83 removed it. It is then that I started reviewing the resources available to dispute this. I started a discussion at the 80.240.225.83 talk page, but it has not been responded to in about two weeks, so that is why I am here now.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Danielwellsfloyd (talk · contribs)
• Rbreen (talk · contribs)
• 80.240.225.83 (talk · contribs)

I am unsure of Rbreen and 80.240.225.83 are the same person.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Star of Bethlehem}} --~~~~ on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have discussed it on the article talk page with Rbreen and on the user talk page for 80.240.225.83.

• How do you think we can help?

I have no idea. I'm just exploring my options. This may not be the appropriate place to discuss this.

Danielwellsfloyd (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Star of Bethlehem discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

• Judging by the robtex results, and the fact that the IP hasn't edited again since then, I don't think it's worth taking action on the IP. On the content side, I'd like to know how you think the section fits into the article. — Kudu  01:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• The section entitled "Interpretations and explanations" describes what different groups of people believe about the Star of Bethlehem. What we learn from references in the Book of Mormon is that a group of people exists that believes the Star was not a local event or an afterthought created by the author of the Book of Matthew. The Book of Mormon retains the ambiguity of Matthew's account by simply stating that it was a "star" and shows that it was visible in the Western Hemisphere as well (or, more generally, that it was a sign given to the whole world, not just those in the East). The Book of Mormon is also the only text to claim an explicit prophecy about the Star: "And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; and this also shall be a sign unto you" (Helaman 14:5). It may be actually be more appropriate to include it in the "Fulfillment of prophecy" subsection. Danielwellsfloyd (talk) 14:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I am a neutral mediator in this dispute (and am not, let me note, a member of the LDS Church or any similar or related church or belief). This article is about the Star of Bethlehem as both a supernatural and physical event and already includes discussions about how it is regarded in Eastern Orthodoxy and, perhaps more notably, astrology. The article is not, and should not be (at least not at this stage of development) limited to a western-orthodox-Christian view of the subject. Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view. With 14 million Mormons in the world (per the Mormons article here), the fact that their holy texts make reference to the star and do so from a historical perspective different than that in mainstream Christianity, is certainly significant enough to warrant a mention in the article. While a reference to a third party source would be preferable, a reference to those texts themselves is a sufficient primary source for the reference. I would note that in this version of the text for the article, the final sentence is inappropriate original research and must either be justified by a citation to a reliable source or be deleted. In terms of positioning and formatting of the text, my opinion is that it most logically fits in the article immediately after the "Eastern Orthodoxy" section and immediately before the "Historical fiction" section with a "3 equal sign" heading of "=== Mormonism ===". Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Alfred Powell Morgan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

He was my grandfather. The article states that he had three sons. He actually had four, my father William 'Jack' Merritt Morgan being the first from a very short marriage.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Merrilee Morgan (talk · contribs)
• MerrileeMorgan (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Not yet.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Alfred Powell Morgan}} --~~~~ on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

• How do you think we can help?

I would like to change the article to state that he had four sons. Who's Who in America lists my father as one of his sons. I'm assuming that would be sufficient verification. However, if you need more information I will be happy to provide what I have.

MerrileeMorgan (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Alfred Powell Morgan discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.