Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:01, 6 October 2011

24 December 2024
News and notes: Responsibilities and liabilities as a "Very Large Online Platform" Op-ed: Beeblebrox on Wikipediocracy, the Committee, and everything Opinion: Graham87 on being the first-ever administrator recall subject In the media: Delhi High Court considers Caravan and Ken for evaluating the ANI vs. WMF case From the archives: Where to draw the line in reporting? Recent research: "Misplaced Pages editors are quite prosocial", but those motivated by "social image" may put quantity over quality Humour: Backlash over Santa Claus' Misplaced Pages article intensifies Gallery: A feast of holidays and carols Traffic report: Was a long and dark December
Single page Front page About Subscribe Suggestions Archives

Incorporating sources: can we define a good style?

This comes up in relation to getting a manual of style for the DNB project: when I saw Walter Whitford yestterday I thought of asking you. There are various ways of using the DNB's sources; and the issue is wider, for example applying also import of the Catholic Encyclopedia. For myself I don't keep many inline references. The endnote references really need a special style, and some sort of header/disclaimer (since the WP article author has presumably not checked them). I wouldn't mind seeing greater use of these resources here, but perhaps templates that are hidden until opened is a better way of proceeding. Thoughts? This area seems still up for grabs. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I think I went a while doing that, and thought better of it, since expanding the abbreviations is a necessary and tedious task while the sources themselves are usually primary sources. I haven't given it all that much thought, but my preference now is probably for ignoring a DNB article's sources and for referencing just the original DNB text instead. Another problem is that after the importation has taken place and editors make alterations, it is impossible for a new editor without much work to trace what comes from where. As it is now customary on Misplaced Pages to reference everything (at least among the most ambitious editors), maybe referencing the DNB article sentence by sentence is a good idea?Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:55, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in, but a big problem I've found in several articles now is that the entries in the current DNB are very different from the old PD versions, and not infrequently contradict them. So finding reliable secondary sources to back up what was once believed to be true or significant is often surprisingly difficult. Malleus Fatuorum 19:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Whenever I copy these articles nowadays I frequently make alterations in accordance with the updated version in the ODNB. Oftentimes there are errors or omissions about hard-to-research specifics such as dates which the ODNB articles fixes. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, I agree with the relevance of the ODNB to fact-checking the DNB entries: I often do this informally, and WP:WP DNB in time should use its list of articles to check off the articles where the ODNB has been taken into account. That's not really a problem, except for scale (30,000 to do). Referencing the ODNB with {{ODNBweb}} is quick enough and appropriate for updates. Thanks for your input anyway. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 9 May 2011

• News and notes: More research on newbie editors; Baidu plagiarism; bin Laden coverage; brief news

• In the news: Billionaire trying to sue Wikipedians; "Critical Point of View" book published; World Bank contest; brief news

• WikiProject report: Game Night at WikiProject Board and Table Games

• Features and admins: Featured articles bounce back

• Arbitration report: AEsh case comes to a close - what does the decision tell us?

• Technology report: MediaWiki 1.16.5, 1.17b1; 1.18 branched; UploadWizard the default; Berlin Hackathon; brief news

I see...

That you saw I'm expanding Pain fitzJohn. Thanks for the fix... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Do those references mean you have access to the Shropshire History and Archaeology Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological and Historical Society? :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, U of I has this and this set of them. I have in my hands a photocopy of the Ludlow piece. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

And Pain's at DYK... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

First step in the long march to FAhood? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:08, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure, honestly. There's certainly enough information, that's for sure. I guess a lot will depend on if I get interested enough to take him past GA. Did you want any articles from the Shropshire mag? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:11, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have done ok so far. :) Thank you, but I'm fine just now (may let you know if that changes!). I do often get frustrated about how difficult it is to consult local history journals from England and Ireland, which often contain the best particular and hence most-relevant-to-wikipedia-articles research. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Aren't you in the British Isles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs)

You'd think that'd make a difference, but we have four different civilizations here and I'm in one of the smaller ones. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 May 2011

• News and notes: Geographical distribution of Misplaced Pages edits; Sue Gardner interviewed; brief news

• In the news: Education minister's speech copied from Misplaced Pages; Jimmy Wales interviewed; brief news

• WikiProject report: Back to Life: Reviving WikiProjects

• Features and admins: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Motions - hyphens and dashes dispute

• Technology report: Berlin Hackathon; April Engineering Report; brief news

Pictish Language

Hi Deacon, I was hoping to get your comments on the following: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medieval Scotland#Consensus on Pictish language. By the way, do you have access to Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness by any chance? I'm trying to get a copy of a paper from volume 21, and my University library's collection starts at 22... and it would be difficult to get an inter-library loan. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 12:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

It's in the library I think. Need a specific reference? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it relates to the Skene issue:

MacBain, A. (1897), "Mr Skene versus Dr Skene", Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness, 21: 191–214

The whole P-Celtic/Q-Celtic discussion is complicated by the fact that the Picts were gaelic speakers by the 9th century, but I'm slightly alarmed by this editor's tendency to dismiss the current academic view in favour of something that more suits his view. Maybe I'm over-reacting... Catfish Jim & the soapdish 13:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

To clarify, what editor is this and what pages is he editing? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

It's User:Seamusalba, the editor who is commenting on the Medieval Scotland project talk page. I noticed some edits that concerned me, particularly to Caledonians: (This with the edit summary (There seems to be an assumption that the language was Brythonic when there are equally reasonable Goidelic etymologies for their name.)

Arbroath, making edits to suggest that aber was goidelic in origin with the summary It has not been established that Brythonic weas spoken by the Picts or other Northern groups before they were called that. In fact they were referred tio as Gaels by Welsh sources. and citing James Robertson's Gaelic Topography of Scotland (same author who wrote Concise Historical Proofs, and again a non-Irish-origin for Gaelic proponant).

I wanted to nip this in the bud, as it's clear from these edits and his edits on an external site that he's aware of the current academic "consensus", but still wants to promote Skene's position. Attempts to discuss this with him have been unproductive, both on his talk page and in my attempt on the project talk page. To be honest, I'm baffled that anyone would maintain trust in sources that have been so thoroughly discredited. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 09:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I merely added that Arbroath COULD be Gaelic in origin. The argument of James Robertson and William Forbes Skene that there were nuanced meanings for Inbhir and Aber should not be dismissed. We cant simply state that an academic is an "amateur" and ignore the logic of their arguments. Particularly when there were subjective reasons why they could have went out of favour as pointed out on the article on Macbain. Its baffling how anyone can claim that I am "ignoring" anything when I am merely adding alternatives. Seamusalba (talk) 10:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Rather than consume lots of time, wouldn't it be better just to say Celtic instead of either Brythonic or Goidelic. It is not by any means likely that there was any systematic difference between the two until way after the Caledonians took a name for themselves. @Seamusalba, you might want to consult WP:RS and WP:UNDUE for guidance on balancing references. What ever you personally think of any issue, the fact is that most modern historians/linguists in the area regard the Picts as British or at most transitional between British and Irish. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree as to the current consensus and wouldnt dispute the existence of it. However the points raised by Skene as to the reliability of vocabulary to tell Brythonic from Goidelic are well worth mentionning on Misplaced Pages and the timeline for the emergence of Pictish culture is important too. Seamusalba (talk) 14:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Move please

Roger (Bishop of Ross) to Roger (bishop of Ross), please ✝DBD 22:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

EMC edits

As I finally have time to return to this, I want to give you notice that I intend to reintroduce some of the edits which you deleted in February. You will remember that you deleted in total about thirty edits and referred them to a CoI debate, which petered out without a consensus. In conjunction with that, you referred two of my articles to deletion debates, both of which failed. (In fact one of the articles was merged into the other, but as this happened at my request and with no loss of material, the fact remains that both AfDs failed.) As there was no consensus for your actions, I am entitled to reintroduce the material.

Your main complaint was CoI. Though several others shared your reservations to some extent, others disagreed, and the reasons why the CoI complaint was mistaken were spelled out very eloquently by user users Whatamidoing and Johnbod. Your second complaint related to the quality of my edits. On this you received no support whatsoever from any other user, except in relation to one single edit which was not up to my usual standard and I am glad to say has been improved. I was able to explain what I was doing with these edits, and you were the only contributor to the discussion who felt that they were wrong in themselves. A third complaint suggested that the number of edits in a short space of time gave an impression of spamming. I take that on board and will initially only reintroduce the four or five most important references. More may gradually follow, but it is not important to me to reintroduce all of them.

If you wish to challenge this, I would encourage you to find another administrator who agrees with your position, and have them speak to me. I will hold off for a couple of days to allow you to do this. I am not prepared to discuss this with you because of your personal rudeness in the past, but I will certainly work with and not against another admin if I am approached by one. If you can't find an admin to do this, you may as well give up any thoughts of building a consensus against me, and in that case, I hope you will not drag us both into any messy nonsense with reverting. --Doric Loon (talk) 21:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes I am fully aware of your view. But you failed to achieve a consensus. I don't think you have the authority to block my account under these circumstances. Unless you can bring in another admin, this is clearly a conflict between you and me, and it would be a clear abuse of admin privileges to use them in such a conflict. I for my part could request that your administrator status be reexamined, and then you would have to explain your behaviour to your fellow admins, for example your claim to be entitled to delete an article against consensus when you are frustrated about consensus moving against you; your use of sarcasm instead of argument; your treatment of newbies; and other things I pointed out before. But I don't want to do that to you. If this is as clear a case as you say, you will easily find another admin to talk to me. If you can't, maybe you should let go. Either way, it needn't take any more of your time. --Doric Loon (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, inserting unused references to a book you have an interest in (whether author or publisher) is spamming. If the source isn't used as a reference, it really shouldn't be inserted into an article by someone connected to the source. There may be some cases where links to the EMC are useful - but in general encylopedic type entries of any sort aren't usually good candidates for "further reading sections". And I certainly read this whole post as a sort of "gauntlet" you're throwing down, which is certainly battlegroundish behavior. As I recall, I removed some of your edits - but since I'm not an admin, I don't count or something? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned you count, but I am not sure Deacon would accept that as an authority. But I would be very happy to work with you - maybe we can talk somewhere else than here? The bullishness of my tone above is a reaction to the way I was treated before by that user, but I am very keen on harmony and consensus. If you are prepared to talk to me, maybe on your userpage, you can maybe help me towards the best way forward. --Doric Loon (talk) 21:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Doric, if you had resumed this editing when the matter was up on those threads, you would have been blocked. I'm not going to spend more time going around in circles with you. As per the warning on your talk page, if you start it again your account will be blocked. Users get accounts to improve the encyclopedia; we have very clear policies on promotion and spamming. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

First, you might learn how to thread talk page replies. It's traditional to indent, using one colon per level of indentation, underneath the reply you are replying to. As far as the other, the best suggestion I have is to actually build up articles - instead of blindly inserting a citation to your work, such as here: diff, you could make an effort to add any missing information to the article. There are several things wrong with that edit - one, your citation style doesn't even begin to match the citation style already present in the article - part of editing with consensus is to adapt your referencing to the style already in use. Second, you added nothing to the actual body of the article, but you still put the citation in the references, instead of in the already existing "further reading" section. Third, there is no need for a special template for the EMC references - the existing templates will do fine. Fourth - if the EMC article doesn't contain anything new or additional to the information already in the article, it's spam to add a citation/further reading link there, as it's not furthering the reader's understanding of the person/chronicle to add that it. We're here to write an encyclopedia, which means that actual additions to the article body are the best sorts of edits to be making. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:01, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Deacon and Ealdgyth that the EMC should only be added when it is used as a source. This shouldn't be hard to do. Pick out stubs and start-level articles, or articles with little or no sourcing, and fix them up and expand them using the EMC as your source. Why would you do this any other way? Srnec (talk) 23:49, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Well actually, that IS what I want to do. If that really is what Deacon is saying, then he won't have a problem with me returning to the articles in the way I mentioned. --Doric Loon (talk) 08:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for David F. Ford

Hi, thanks for reviewing my hook. Please see the entry on the DYK page for an alt idea. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Question on source..

I just got through the library G. W. S. Barrow's The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History, which are the Ford Lectures from 1977. Are they hopelessly outdated? I'm such a non-reader of Scottish stuff that I'm not sure it's worth trying to get a hold of a copy of this or not. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Some of the more intellectual/abstract stuff is a bit dated, but it's a good book to use to build articles on Anglo-Norman nobility in Scotland. He wasn't interested in the same things we're interested in today (like the locals!), but Barrow knows his charter sources very well, probably better than anyone just now (though he was younger when he wrote that). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It's hard enough to keep up on scholarship in the fields I'm interested in, trying to keep up in other countries is just too much work sometimes! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

pmanderson edit warring

Sorry, but he really is edit warring, he's making, repeatedly, non consensus edits on a policy page. He's not 3rr, but he is edit warring. If he's not edit warring how come essentially the same edit has been made 5 times? How come there's an entire thread about his edits? That's edit warring. He's not reverting back to an old consensus version, he's remaking a new edit each time and ignoring any contrary views.Rememberway (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You're "edit-warring" too, and in fact have the most recent revert. Try leaving off reverting longer and see who else actually agrees with you. Consensus is shown by the edit log ... it can't just be claimed as you are doing. I wouldn't regard action as merited against either of you, but both of you are playing Russian roulette with the admin community. Lots of trigger happy admins out there who'd love the excuse ... and both of you, as you probably sort of realise, have given that already. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

No, no, I meant consensus is when everyone agrees. OMG... I only just checked pmanderson's block log. I've never seen anything that long before in my entire life... 8-( He's being blocked every few weeks now. I had a fair list of edit war blocks, but they were like once every ten thousand edits, once a year.Rememberway (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realise. This puts a whole different spin. Why on earth did you give him the benefit? He obviously practically never backs down, so there's very little chance of consensus.Rememberway (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, I understand now. I was trying to understand why he was doing this, but it looks like a major personality flaw. He's clearly just horribly tendentious. (facepalm) Many thanks. Rememberway (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Rememberway, if you're going to bring up pmanderson's block log it's only fair that we look at your past account's blocks and topic bans as well. I strongly suggest you keep editor behaviour out of this conflict. --NeilN 14:37, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

^Do you like my stalker Deacon? He's cut and paste the same personal attack on 3 different people's talk pages but it's unusual to do that on an admins talk page though. ;-) Isn't he cute. Rememberway (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

How is pointing out your past history a personal attack? Two of the three talk pages are on my watchlist and I noticed you bringing up pmanderson's block log on all three. I simply suggested you avoid bringing up editor behaviour. --NeilN 16:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Take one Misplaced Pages:STALK#Wikihounding and let us know if your opinion that this isn't at least a mild case of wikihounding is still bothering you in the morning. I'm sure that pndapetzim doesn't really care about any of this, so let's leave him in peace.Rememberway (talk) 00:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 23 May 2011

• News and notes: GLAM workshop; legal policies; brief news

• In the news: Death of the expert?; superinjunctions saga continues; World Heritage status petitioned and debated; brief news

• WikiProject report: WikiProject Formula One

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Injunction – preliminary protection levels for BLP articles when removing PC

• Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

DYK for Law of Hlothhere and Eadric

Hi, I just reviewed and approved your hook. Could you narrow the width of the infobox somehow? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 15:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Better now? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Galloway and Tír Eoghain

Good on ya! Have just read Aodh Méith and Áed in Macáem Tóinlesc, which are excellent. Very professional! Fergananim (talk) 14:05, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. Will get round to Niall Ruadh in the next few days. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry

Deacon, I am sorry for being such an asshole. I have a drinking problem and other ones. Your new O'Neill articles are really nice. DinDraithou (talk) 18:58, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks DinDraithou. If that stuff is behind you then there's no reason it should continue to be a big deal. Start afresh? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Recognizing you as a potential major resource somehow made me unhappier with everything. Once I feel offended or in some way get into a fight with someone I have difficulty letting it go if they're still around. We had our interesting disagreements but it was uncalled for for me to in the end show up on your talk page and say I didn't consider you of any value to me. It made me feel like I won but was worse than any block or report against me coming from your direction. I am famously prone to vicious outbursts when I feel threatened, which are sometimes pretty effective, so I keep doing it. A situation might actually be a threat to me but I fail to react calmly.

So what I'm saying is that you undoubtedly have knowledge I need and I would certainly work with you, although my highly active period is over now. When I saw your O'Neill articles I knew I hadn't given you the proper chance. DinDraithou (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Law of Hlothhere and Eadric

On 27 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Law of Hlothhere and Eadric, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the late 7th-century Kentish law code, the Law of Hlothhere and Eadric, has no provisions regarding the church? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

We are not amused: Commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, Britain, or England?

I don't know if this a joke on nationalism or what, but I don't personally find it funny. Stick it in the identity section that is replacing the removal of the politicised 'country' intro-note. UK Talk has got so long now I can barely scroll to the different polls. Perhaps you could vote on one and help get the UK article unlocked, eh? Matt Lewis (talk) 11:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't actually think any neutral version is possible, because of the demographics of the editors who are attracted to such disputes. Ideologues care, neutrals don't. Certain users do nothing on Misplaced Pages but push their ideology into a few articles like this (in this case mostly Anglo nationalists). As a side comment, since we have to put up with them ... it is not necessarily a bad thing if they are occupied in one place in a popular and hence unstable article. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You're right - I don't like it. Not sure about there being a dominant "Anglo nationalist" ideology here either - there are maybe two clear ones as far as I can see. The problem is (as usual) differences between Irish and Scottish/Welsh nationalists, plus the stubborn 'British' element that is usually decidedly unhelpful. And when neutrals attempt to step in that makes four. Add GoodDay for spice. Oh I forgot the token "damn all nations, the modern invention" contributor who talks like he smokes 80 a day. The last thing it needs is a troop of super-inclusionist comedians to make it a neat 7. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Shux, I'm not that bad. It's wearying to see so many people selecting sources cherry-picked through clever google searches that support their own poorly-disguised agendas, and subsequently present their positions are mere slavish responses to sources. "Constituent country" says it all ... the editors have descended into fantasy-land. The same techniques much more convincingly make England "an island-state also called the UK". Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I was with you there.. right up to the point where you said "constituent country". Change that to "constituent countries.." and you have a term that is used in certain circumstances where it is useful and needed (like in glossaries or encyclopedias perhaps?) Except on Misplaced Pages - where it isn't allowed, partly in case people misuse it to say "Scotland is a constituent country (full stop)", but mostly because Scotland (and Wales, ho hum) are always no-less than a Proud and Devolving Countries. It's a combination of nationalism, paranoia, inability (to a degree), and complete laziness. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Nah, Matt, you've been on Misplaced Pages too long. Not a significant term in the real world. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:30, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Ditto (and you more than me these days). Such a term shouldn't have to be that widely-used in the real world, but I'm afraid that it is regardless. I hate to Google-link you, but it's used all over the shop. It is essential to pluralise it though. See "constituent counties" and "united Kingdom" search, and "constituent countries" and "uk" search. Forget the results at the top - it's Misplaced Pages. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, Matt, you prove my point. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Look through them why don't you? Google often sticks junk at the top. There is more here than any of the polemical shite you read absorbed into Misplaced Pages prose in this area. So they are mostly govenment and finance? What kind of links to do you want? Children's television? It's not that kind of term - nor need it be. And concepts like 'usage guidelines' and 'accepted terminology' are possible in this madhouse you know, even in UK-IRE. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:04, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The countries are described as countries, and as constituent parts, but this doesn't make "constituent countries" a technical term. That's is the insanity. Google search show information replication, not usage. Try google books ... and try finding usage as a fixed technical term (the way GoodDay et al wish it to be used on Misplaced Pages). Any English speaker in the UK, literate in politics, knows that the term has no relevance in mainstream terminology ... but you need to be literate to know. The benefit of the having a foot in the real world is you know when Wikiworld has gone nuts. ;) It has gone nuts here. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:07, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, it's GoodDay and me who favour "constituent countries" in the UK intro(s) - everyone else has either been baffled or bullied off track! If GD wants to use it in place of 'country' within articles etc, then he's just wrong: but he'll understand that if it's explained to him.

Secondly, who says it has to be a fixed term?

Thirdly, I totally agree - the article is wank. But I'm not using it as a source - never, ever use Misplaced Pages as a source. Not because it's introverted - because it's mostly crap. As I just pointed out on UK talk, constituent country needs to be updated to include the common use of the phrase, ie specifically as an adjective. In UK use, "constituent country" is clearly an adjective with a noun modifier (which is always a noun) - with the noun being the UK. The two nouns just happen to be different instances of the same thing. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

This has been bugging me off-wiki now, and I've made a couple of edits - first to constituent country. Embarrassingly it was me (over 3 years ago I think) who called it a 'term' - which would have been done to try to stabalise things at the time, and generally pare down all the various excesses. I completely missed the meaning of the text I removed (which I've now replaced), and had no idea the phrase had since been projected as a 'problematic term' (I just knew some people didn't like it). I certainly didn't envisage it as a singular term for each country, only ever as something that connects them to the UK.

There is nothing like an element of 'inherent confusion' to stop a term from being used in this area - see 'British Isles' when it's been found to be used too-culturally, and esp when the Channel-Islands are included. I've also explained constituent country properly in the FAQ. I don't actually notice things like the FAQ spring up, simply because I'm not as involved as you think I am any more.

You know, I may have made the offending edit at constituent country - but I'm not taking the blame for it being up there 3 years, or what has been made of it either. At least I do try and de-opinionise these flipping articles. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, you British admin - if you follow the logic of your knowingly effete attitude to these matters, the conclusion is damning no matter how devastatingly-cool you think it is to be 'intellectually' above the fools. It's an ivory tower frankly. And when is disharmony good for anything? Perhaps you could archive this so I'm not obliged to periodically look for a response that isn't going to happen. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Deacon. I just stumbled on this thread and see you have discovered the answer to rude, ignorant POV warriors, who don't actually appear to make any contributions to Misplaced Pages. Just ignore them. I shall use the same approach. Thank you. Daicaregos (talk) 21:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

How can an someone as anti-bias as myself be a "POV warrior"? I guess we must have disagreed over something Dai.

Sorry the above links aren't working for everyone - they work for me.

Despite Google being full of potentially useless results, I still prefer it to Google Books. Although it's hard to know how many of the half-million plus Google results are valid - even a small percentage of them is a lot. When I try the four searches in Google Books (using the occasionally-overlapping "UK and "United Kingdom") I get 3-4,000 for "constituent counties" but only 3-400 for "constituent country" - which proves my point on the way it is used. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia - my argument is that it doesn't have to use colloquial language for every aspect of it, and specific word-phrases like this are perfectly valid in the right context. For me the word is simply made for the job - and Misplaced Pages did used to use it. And although I don't know too much about Google Books - I think around 4,000 over-all is a high figure for it. It's been used so-often over the years simply because the UK countries are indeed 'countries', and using "constituent" is clearly one of the best ways of making various sentences work. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if anyone is offended, but I have nothing more to say on the matter. That's all my lack of response means. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 May 2011

• News and notes: ArbCom referendum goes live; US National Archives residency; financial planning; brief news

• In the news: Collaboration with academia; world heritage; xkcd; eG8 summit; ISP subpoena; brief news

• WikiProject report: The Royal Railway

• Featured content: Whipping fantasies, American–British naval rivalry, and a medieval mix of purity and eroticism

• Arbitration report: Update – injunction from last week has expired

• Technology report: Wikimedia down for an hour; What is: Misplaced Pages Offline?

DYK for Áed in Macáem Tóinlesc

On 1 June 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Áed in Macáem Tóinlesc, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Áed in Macáem Tóinlesc ("the lazy-rumped lad"), sometime king of Tír Eogain, got his nickname by refusing to stand for the High King of Ireland Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Belated "Hurrah!"s. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Thomas of Galloway

On 4 June 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Thomas of Galloway, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1212 Thomas of Galloway, brother of the Lord of Galloway, sacked and looted the Irish city of Derry in a raid of 76 ships, and returned in 1214 to devastate the city again? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The Signpost: 6 June 2011

• Board elections: Time to vote

• News and notes: Board resolution on controversial content; WMF Summer of Research; indigenous workshop; brief news

• In the news: 60% of doctors use Misplaced Pages; growing in India; brief news

• Recent research: Various metrics of quality and trust; leadership; nerd stereotypes

• WikiProject report: Make your own book with Wikiproject Misplaced Pages-Books

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Two cases pending resolution; temporary desysop; dashes/hyphens update

• Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

Gallowegian=person from Galloway

Gallowegian=person from Galloway Galwegian=person from Galway

Although they might look superficially similar, they are not.

Galwegian is pronounced GAUL-we-jahn, note the first syllable is not GALL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TechManNYC (talk • contribs) 17:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

You'll need to take that up with the people who use "Galwegian" all the time to refer to Galloway men.. English is not a language with a close link between pronunciation and spelling anyway. Usage of "Gallowegian" is comparatively rare (Gallovidian is next most common apparently). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem though is that you are referring to a possible colloquial usage, while scholarly work use the correct form, which is Gallowegian. It makes no matter to me that people mispronounce things, what matters is that the correct form be used on Misplaced Pages - so that going forward there is no dissemination of misinformation. You do realize how silly you're being I hope? This would be like you claiming that Edinburgher should be written Edinbuger... — Preceding unsigned comment added by TechManNYC (talk • contribs) 18:06, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to revert your comments, just point you to the Scholarly references: http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=gallowegian#q=gallowegian&hl=en&prmd=ivnsb&source=lnms&tbm=bks&ei=JmruTY-LO8rogQfQxICVDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=6&ved=0CAwQ_AUoBQ&prmdo=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9f4b039ccbcce956&biw=1680&bih=929 — Preceding unsigned comment added by TechManNYC (talk • contribs) 18:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Investigate the matter for yourself; Galwegian has about tens times the results, and the usage is primarily scholarly not colloquial. This is something you'll need to take up with learned journals such as the Scottish Historical Review who set usage, rather than with Misplaced Pages who follow it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:06, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh... sweet thought! Misplaced Pages actually following scholarly, learned work, rather than tring to disseminate misinformation. One can but dream... --Mais oui! (talk) 07:34, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Alexander MacDougall

You are not an admin so don't even think about trying to give me a warning. I am well within my Misplaced Pages rights to move the page with or without discussion. mjgm84 (talk) 07:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Aodh Méith

On 11 June 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Aodh Méith, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Aodh Méith refused to meet with the King of England, because the King was unwilling to give hostages as surety? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

DYK for Law of Wihtred

On 11 June 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Law of Wihtred, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the 7th-century Law of Wihtred, a law code from Kent, provides that any slave forced to worked on the sabbath be given freedom? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The Signpost: 13 June 2011

• News and notes: Wikipedians 90% male and largely altruist; 800 public policy students add 8.8 million bytes; brief news

• In the news: Revere, Palin and Colbert generate activity; British Misplaced Pages "cleanser"; brief news

• WikiProject report: WikiProject Aircraft

• Featured content: Featured lists hit the main page

• Arbitration report: More workshop proposals in Tree shaping case; further votes in PD of other case

• Technology report: 1.18 extension bundling; mobile testers needed; brief news

Is "Peerage of Scotland" appropriate?

Please see:

• Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_June_16#British_dukedoms

Cheers, --Mais oui! (talk) 10:35, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The extra texts besides being useless actually turn it into a subcategory of the former name rather than a synonym. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:57, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 June 2011

• News and notes: WMF Board election results; Indian campus ambassadors gear up; Wikimedia UK plans; Malayalam Wikisource CD; brief news

• In the news: Misplaced Pages could become trusted medical resource; neologism controversy; news in brief

• WikiProject report: The Elemental WikiProject

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: One case comes to a close; initiator of a new case blocked as sockpuppet

• Technology report: Engineering department restructured; "break MediaWiki and be reverted"; news in brief

Duns Scotus article daftness

I note that up until today our Duns Scotus article said he was born in Duns. However, there is now a discrepancy, with the article saying Ireland but the Infobox still saying Duns. Do you have any scholarly external refs, cos this is just the kind of inconsistency which makes the project look daft. Which, of course, it often is. --Mais oui! (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Just spotted that a new user is responsible:

--Mais oui! (talk) 10:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Mistaken identity surely. Anyway, the Oxford DNB says "arlier long-held claims for 1274 as the date of his birth and Ireland as his country of origin cannot be sustained, and are no longer accepted" and that he was born at Duns in 1265-1266. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:22, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Angus. --Mais oui! (talk) 13:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Presently looking out of the window at the cairn commemorating him at Duns would suggest that he was born here, or at least the Franciscan order believe that to be the case as of 1965ish. (cf. John Mair and Haddingtonus Scotus) How to get verifiable folk memory eh, there's the twist!! Brendandh (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Angus appears to have sorted it: cheers Angus. Scotus meaning "Irish" is a rare archaism in Latin after the early 11th century, and after this point almost always means someone from Scotland or descended from such a person. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 June 2011

• News and notes: ArbCom database theft; WikiLove to roll out on the English Misplaced Pages; brief news

• In the news: Russian president uploads to Wikimedia Commons; brief news

• WikiProject report: The Continuous Convention: WikiProject Comics

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Proposed decision for Tree shaping case

• Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News

Bishop move

Charles Edward Plumb to Charles Plumb (per WP:COMMONNAME) please ✝DBD 10:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

and Bruce Read Evans to Bruce Evans please ✝DBD 22:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

and also Ernest Edwin Curtis to Edwin Curtis please ✝DBD 12:55, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

and James Augustus Watton to James Watton please ✝DBD 21:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Cheers fella ✝DBD 22:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Brian George Farran to Brian Farran please ✝DBD 18:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

& Sidney Gething Caulton to Sydney Caulton please ✝DBD 17:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

William Garden Cowie to William Cowie also please ✝DBD 20:55, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 4 July 2011

• News and notes: Picture of the Year 2010; data challenge; brief news

• In the news: WikiLove roll-out; €25,000 in damages for being removed from Misplaced Pages; brief news

• WikiProject report: The Star-Spangled WikiProject

• Featured content: Two newly promoted portals

• Arbitration report: Arb resigns while mailing list leaks continue; Motion re: admin

• Technology report: June report: Virginia datacenter, parser, user profiles; WikiLove 1.0; brief news

The Signpost: 11 July 2011

• From the editor: Stepping down

• Higher education summit: Misplaced Pages in Higher Education Summit recap

• News and notes: Wikipedians' surfing habits explored, Sloan Foundation renews $3M grant

• In the news: Britannica and Misplaced Pages compared; Putin award criticized; possible journalistic sockpuppeting

• WikiProject report: Listening to WikiProject Albums

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Tree shaping case comes to a close

• Technology report: WMF works on its release strategy; secure server problems

"Kings of Scotland" (legendary)

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on handling the presumably fictitious early kings of Scotland/Dalriada: this is a practical DNB matter, in that certain biographies exist for them. Fergus I is not the only example here, but it does have incoming links. Later today I'll be posting the "Eugenius I-VIII" biography at Wikisource, and it prompts me to think ahead to what should be the end result sought. In effect there is a list of these characters that could be created; the ODNB can be used as a reference to introduce historiographical remarks. So would it be best to create such a list and mainly redirect the names there? In other words have a single page discussing the fictional stuff, which would have links to articles about the actual historical characters. I can see this as being somewhat demanding to get right. But is that the best way? Charles Matthews (talk) 13:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Those guys are objects of modern scholarship, and have historical significance for studies of late medieval and early modern Scotland. I'd be inclined to keep articles like this in as few places as possible anyway for management reasons. It's quite possible more people will add unworthy material to such articles than will monitor them, especially as some level of expertise would be needed for those monitoring. Articles such as List of legendary kings of Britain or Matter of Britain might be good models, though "Matter of Scotland" does not seem to be a well used historiographic term. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

There's a draft progressing in my userspace now. The situation about images isn't very satisfactory: but having tracked down your alter ego on Commons I see you know about that. There must be a series of engravings by Alexander Bannermann (the four Ns being the DNB's idea, that article needs moving I guess); you presumably know in what form those were published. File:Constantine III (Alba).jpg is from a different series? The website of the Royal Collection has images of a number of the paintings, and so far I have uploaded just one. There could be an image gallery for the list, but the Poets' Corner style of thumbnail images within a table would require a lot more work. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:02, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Charles, please forgive the long interval from my last response, a result being on the road with poor internet access atm. It has been a while since I uploaded that, but the de Wet portraits are in the Great Gallery of Holyrood Palace. These are portraits of the Scottish kings from the legendary ones onwards. I have tried to find these online intermittently but haven't yet been successful. I presume if I searched hard enough in out-of-copyright books I'd find them, but haven't tried hard enough because of their limited historical value for historic kings as themselves. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:21, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Just tracked down your article, List of legendary kings of Scotland, pretty wonderful stuff. I'll inform Angus Mclellan about this as (besides my own time constraints just now) this is his area of interest more than it is mine. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It's not yet done, of course: dates to add in particular. A couple of things where better references could help. Bede talks about a Reuda who is an interesting clue as to why Reutherus is there; but I didn't add anything, not having an explicit connection made. Also the reference to Edinburgh pageantry seems pretty interesting, would like to know more. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a lot that can be added. Off the top of my head there's an entertaining account of the emergence of some of those kings in William Ferguson's The Identity of the Scottish Nation: An Historic Quest. The early evolution of the king-lists and legendary Scottish origin accounts are reconstructed with meticulous detail in Dauvit Broun's The Irish Identity of the Kingdom of the Scots. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to pester. If you have library access to Duncan Thompson, The Life and Art of George Jamesone (1974), which I can read on Google Books only in a stingy fashion, you might be able to find about more of the 1633 pageant portraits by Jamesone that survive than I can right now. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Charles, I've recalled this book from my library. I'll let you know when I get my hands on it. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 July 2011

• News and notes: WMF Annual plan; Article Feedback tool; university outreach; brief news

• In the news: Fine art; surreptitious sanitation; the politics of kyriarchic marginalization; brief news

• WikiProject report: Earn $$$ free pharm4cy WORK FROM HOME replica watches ViAgRa!!!

• Featured content: Historic last launch of the Space Shuttle Endeavour; Teddy Roosevelt's threat to behead official; 18th-century London sex manual

• Arbitration report: Motion passed to amend 2008 case: topic ban and reminder

• Technology report: Code Review backlog almost zero; What is: Subversion?; brief news

More bishop moves

Please would you move Henry Cecil Read to Henry Read? Cheers ✝DBD 18:00, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. Sorry for the delay. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Cheers, and William Henry Moorhead to William Moorhead please ✝DBD 15:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

and George Jehoshaphat Mountain to George Mountain please ✝DBD 16:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Russell Brown (bishop) to Russel Brown also ✝DBD 17:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Frank Tracy Griswold to Frank Griswold ✝DBD 13:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Frederick L. Barry to Frederick Barry also please (the ECUSA bishops are proving a hefty job!) ✝DBD 19:39, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

and Harry Lee Doll to Harry Doll ✝DBD 01:15, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

and Samuel David Ferguson to Samuel Ferguson (bishop) please ✝DBD 13:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Simeon Arthur Huston to Arthur Huston please ✝DBD 15:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

and Samuel Johnson Howard to Samuel Howard please ✝DBD 16:08, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Please would you also move William Sheridan (bishop) to William Sheridan? ✝DBD 08:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Done! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Cheers mate ✝DBD 10:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Next, William Sheridan (bishop) to William Sheridan and Henry Benjamin Whipple to Henry Whipple please ✝DBD 10:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Did both, but User:Jonathunder has objected to the latter move so you'll need to take it up with him or initiate an RM. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I shan't bother with having an argument, it's not really worth it... ✝DBD 20:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

] to Trevor Evans please ✝DBD 21:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Irish in York

Deacon, I recall seeing a post of yours somewhere in which you say it is likely the Norse were also using some of the Irish language in York. Is there any evidence for that? One would imagine that many members were multilingual and had to use Irish frequently. I think I remember reading in a paper that it was considered a language of culture by certain royalty in England at one point. Downham? Nora lives (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there are any Irish inscriptions or anything; we do know that Northumbria had Hiberno-Norse kings for most of the first half of the 10th century. Hudson in Viking Kings and Christian Princes talks a bit about this kind of thing. Regarding being a language respected by royalty in England, I don't recall reading an article about England, but Hudson has stuff that might be relevant too (e.g. "The Literary Culture of the Early Scottish Court") ... you might want to buy his Irish Sea Studies essay collection. Incidentally I recall from my own readings (don't remember if Hudson ever talks about it) that in Vita Ædwardi Regis Edith queen of England was said to speak fluent Irish (as well as Scandinavian and Gallo-Romance). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I think she is who I read about. And there was something to do with the royal family of Leinster (Uí Cheinnselaig) and the friends they had in England, whoever they were. For the Hiberno-Norse I really should give Hudson a try, when I haven't so far because some of his genealogical theories are poorly informed and he is not the best at citing his sources (I have read). But that doesn't mean there might not be areas in which he has greater expertise. Thank you for the recommendations. I have just checked the catalogue and they have them at the New York Public Library available for the main reading room. If and when I learn about that paper again I'll tell you. Nora lives (talk) 22:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're talking about the pre-Diarmait mac Murchada era? Arnulf of Montgomery is an interesting guy. In some ways he gets the ball rolling on Norman involvement in Ireland, though in others he just continues the longer historic connections between the English north-west and Ireland. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó, quite the impressive figure. I have found the paper, which Brianann sent to me back in December, and forwarded it to the gmail address you had when we had our first fight. It is Clare Downham's "England and the Irish-Sea Zone in the Eleventh Century" in Anglo-Norman Studies 26 and she discusses Diarmait's friendship with the House of Godwin at some length, pp. 65 ff, and mentions Edith's knowledge of Irish. The Arnulf of Montgomery story is certainly a strange episode. I didn't know our sources might be questionable until looking at the article. Nora lives (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for sending me that. Will be useful. Do you happen to know anything about the Ui Mail Doraids of Tyrconnell btw? As per usual in Irish topics there is little historical work, but hoping there might be something useful out there somewhere. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:31, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I do now and you're in luck. They, the O'Muldor(e)ys (Mulroy) (Ua/í Máel Doraid), were once eligible for the kingship of Cenél Conaill, and appear to have provided a fair number, and so should be perfectly legitimate Uí Néill. For their official pedigree go to p. 164 here (Rawlinson B 502), first line under Genelach Ceníuil Conaill. According to ¶804 on p. 137 their closest kin are the Ua Canannáin. John O'Hart gives their pedigree on p. 602 in his work, with the style "ancient Princes of Tirconnell." Nora lives (talk) 16:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for this NL. The Ui Mail Doraid and Ui Canannain both claimed descent from Flaithbertach mac Loingsig, and I think he is their common ancestor. I've found these articles helpful , but not equivalent scholarship on the Ui Mail Doraid. The latter have been suggested as the progenitors of the 12th and 13th century Scottish kings (through Crinan of Dunkel), but there is no agreement on this. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:41, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

You might try Brian Lacey's Cenél Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800, which I have not looked at myself. I do know his arguments are controversial, but you might find valuable information. After just recovering my copy, I have looked in Paul MacCotter's Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions and found nothing.

Can I ask you something about policy here? I have watchlisted Chief of the Name, and recently a person has been adding that a certain Liam MacCarthy is now accepted by his family as such, and User:Yopie has been vigilantly removing it. But since they provided a website, I contacted them, and have been provided with perfectly excellent information, because this interesting start-up association is in contact with the family themselves. This includes references for pedigrees registered with the Ulster King of Arms, as well as direction to a discussion of the issue in the 2nd edition of P.B. Ellis' Erin's Blood Royal (2002), where Liam Trant MacCarthy (b. 1957) is listed as one of the two current legitimate claimants to the title of MacCarthy Mór, the other being a cousin Barry Trant MacCarthy (b. 1931). According to my source in this new Desmond association, a very nice gentleman, the now elderly Barry has recently retracted his claim in favour of his younger cousin, who according to what I read in Ellis also happens to be the senior male representative of the family according to the law of primogeniture... of course not a Gaelic custom, but whatever. So what I have done for them so far is give them a section in Gaelic nobility of Ireland (MacCarthys Mór), but I feel like I can't just yet say that Barry has retracted his claim in favour of his cousin, one reason being because the former has a son born in 1961, and Brehon law isn't interested in primogeniture. What do you think? Also giving them a mention in Chief of the Name might be a little tricky, but because we have sources it is possible, and the creation of a new article or two could come in the future. Nora lives (talk) 15:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

This is very complicated, but hasn't legal recognition of this position been abandoned anyway? Of the top of my head, I'd recommend mentioning claims only as claims, w/o going into more difficult-to-verify detail. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

That's what I've been doing. There is still a possibility The Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains could recognize one of these legitimate MacCarthys Mór in the future but as far as I understand it no mechanisms are in place yet, and the coucil isn't even interested. Currently I am engaged in strategizing with a member of the 45+ strong order supporting MacCarthy Mór, who believe he should be on the council, although I would personally prefer the council did not exist because of the questionable pedigrees of several of those "princes" involved in its formation. Also I have given MacCarthy's sept their own article: Sliocht Cormaic of Dunguile, notability unquestionable. Nora lives (talk) 21:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 July 2011

• Wikimedian in Residence interview: Wikimedian in Residence on Open Science: an interview with Daniel Mietchen

• News and notes: Oral citations; the state of global development; a gentler Huggle; brief news

• In the news: Open access clash with copyright; rising reader satisfaction; the wiki-correlates of geopolitical instability; brief news

• Recent research: Talk page interactions; Misplaced Pages at the Open Knowledge Conference; Summer of Research

• WikiProject report: Musing with WikiProject Philosophy

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: New case opened; hyphens and dashes update; motion

• Technology report: Protocol-relative URLs; GSoC updates; bad news for SMW fans; brief news

The Signpost: 01 August 2011

• News and notes: Wikimania; why Board of Trustees elections attract few votes; brief news

• In the news: Consensus of Misplaced Pages authors questioned about Shakespeare authorship; 10 biggest edit wars on Misplaced Pages; brief news

• Research interview: The Huggle Experiment: interview with the research team

• WikiProject report: Little Project, Big Heart — WikiProject Croatia

• Featured content: Featured pictures is back in town

• Arbitration report: Proposed decision submitted for one case

• Technology report: Developers descend on Haifa; wikitech-l discussions; brief news

The Signpost: 08 August 2011

• Wikimania: Seventh annual Wikimedia conference concluded in Haifa, Israel

• News and notes: Wikimania a success; board letter controversial; and evidence showing bitten newbies don't stay

• In the news: Israeli news focuses on Wikimania; worldwide coverage of contributor decline and gender gap; brief news

• WikiProject report: Shooting the breeze with WikiProject Firearms

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Manipulation of BLPs case opened; one case comes to a close

• Technology report: Wikimania technology roundup; brief news

A bit of a mess!

I think I may have messed up both Kenneth Donald Mackenzie and Kenneth Mackenzie (bishop) by moving the former to the latter! Somehow that's even though there was content on the latter page... Please could you help out with some de-moving and some history fiddling? If they could just go back to how they were before I moved the former, I can probably take it from there. Cheers! ✝DBD 10:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

OK. I think I fixed it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. All done. Legend. ✝DBD 00:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Just when you thought it was safe...

I've come across another tricky bishop move – would you please move Bishop Harper to Henry Harper (bishop)? ✝DBD 08:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

And also Bishops of Singapore to Bishop of Singapore please ✝DBD 08:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for WikiProject United States to support WikiProject Washington

It was recently suggested that WikiProject Washington might be inactive or semiactive and it might be beneficial to include it in the list of projects supported by WikiProject United States. I have started a discussion on the projects talk page soliciting the opinions of the members of the project if this project would be interested in being supported by WikiProject United States. Please feel free to comment on your opinions about this suggestion. --Kumioko (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 15 August 2011

• Women and Misplaced Pages: New Research, WikiChix

• News and notes: Chapter funding and what skeptics and Latter Day Saints have in common

• In the news: Misplaced Pages a "sausage fest", Chicago Wikipedians ("the people you've probably plagiarized"), and other silly season stories

• WikiProject report: The Oregonians

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Abortion case opened, two more still in progress

• Technology report: Forks, upload slowness and mobile redirection

Kings of Alba/Brunanburh

Ross's book and the Brunanburh one arrived with the post today. I haven't had a chance to skim the Brunanburh one - it will surely do as a door-stop if nothing else - but I quite like the look of The Kings of Alba. I wonder where Athelstan has got to. Thanks for the heads up! Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:44, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 22 August 2011

• News and notes: Girl Geeks edit while they dine, candidates needed for forthcoming steward elections, image referendum opens

• In the news: Journalist regrets not checking citation, PR firms issue advice on how to "survive" Misplaced Pages (but U.S. Congressman caught red-handed)

• WikiProject report: Images in Motion – WikiProject Animation

• Featured content: JJ Harrison on avian photography

• Arbitration report: After eleven moves, name for islands now under arbitration

• Technology report: Engineering report, sprint, and more testers needed

Merge list to main article

Hope you doing ok! Could you do me a favour and merge the List of Bishops of Bristol to the main Bishop of Bristol article. Thanks. Scrivener-uki (talk) 16:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:FOUR for Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick

		Four Award
		Congratulations! You have been awarded the Four Award for your work from beginning to end on Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:46, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 August 2011

• News and notes: Abuse filter on all Wikimedia sites; Foundation's report for July; editor survey results

• In the news: Misplaced Pages praised for disaster news coverage, scolded for left-wing bias; brief news

• Recent research: Article promotion by collaboration; deleted revisions; Misplaced Pages's use of open access; readers unimpressed by FAs; swine flu anxiety

• Opinion essay: How an attempt to answer one question turned into a quagmire

• WikiProject report: WikiProject Tennis

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: Four existing cases

• Technology report: The bugosphere, new mobile site and MediaWiki 1.18 close in on deployment

September 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The September 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 14:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 05 September 2011

• News and notes: 24,000 votes later and community position on image filter still unclear; first index of editor satisfaction appears positive

• In the news: Britannica and Misplaced Pages like "apples and chairs"; should anyone who's anyone get an article?; and why fighting and barriers to editing may be useful after all

• WikiProject report: Riding with WikiProject London Transport

• Sister projects: Wiki Loves Monuments 2011

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Opinion essay: The copyright crisis, and why we should care

• Arbitration report: BLP case closed; Cirt-Jayen466 nearly there; AUSC reshuffle

• Technology report: Pencils down in Google Summer of Code, August analysed and integrated HTTPS support in action

Dean move

Hullo again! This dean is misplaced: Christopher John Armstrong → Christopher Armstrong please. ✝DBD 10:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Old news

Hey Deacon, are you sure about this edit? You removed the cn-tag, rather than the claim "now the standard reference for the study of the battle", which is clearly promotional in its unverified state. Drmies (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that was a mistake. I intended to remove it, but apparently only removed the tag. Thanks for pointing that out.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 12 September 2011

• News and notes: Foundation reports on research, Kenya trip, Mumbai Wikiconference; Canada, Hungary and Estonia; English Wikinews forked

• In the news: 9/11 coverage, Wikimedia hypothetically rebranded and Misplaced Pages golf 2.0

• WikiProject report: Politics in the Pacific: WikiProject Australian Politics

• Featured content: Wikipedians explain two new featured pictures

• Arbitration report: Ohconfucius sanctions removed, Cirt desysopped 6:5 and a call for CU/OS applications

• Technology report: What is: agile development? and new mobile site goes live

• Opinion essay: The Walrus and the Carpenter

Bishop template move

Hullo – this move is blocked by a redirect: Template:Bishops of Peterborough since 1908 → Template:Bishops of Peterborough. Would you mind helping, please? ✝DBD 17:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 19 September 2011

• From the editor: Changes to The Signpost

• News and notes: Ushahidi research tool announced, Citizendium five years on: success or failure?, and Wikimedia DC officially recognised

• In the news: Misplaced Pages: yesterday's news? Calls for women, doctors, and scholars of humanities; Wales makes Wikimedia work "look easy"

• Sister projects: On the Wikinews fork

• WikiProject report: Back to school

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: ArbCom narrowly rejects application to open new case

• Technology report: MediaWiki 1.18 deployment begins, the alleged "injustice" of WMF engineering policy, and Wikimedians warned of imminent fix to magic word

• Popular pages: Article stats for the English Misplaced Pages in the last year

The Signpost: 26 September 2011

• Opinion essay: The global mission, the image filter and the "German question"

• Recent research: Top female Wikipedians, reverted newbies, link spam, social influence on admin votes, Wikipedians' weekends, WikiSym previews

• News and notes: WMF strikes down enwiki consensus, academic journal partnerships, and eyebrows raised over minors editing porn-related content

• In the news: Sockpuppeting journalist recants, search dominance threatened, new novels replete with Misplaced Pages references

• WikiProject report: A project in overdrive: WikiProject Automobiles

• Featured content: The best of the week

• Arbitration report: "Broadly construed" explained, voting begins on Senkaku Islands case, invitation to comment on CU/OS candidates

• Technology report: 1.18 deployment on track, "mythical" Git migration scheduled, editor decline statistics improved

The Signpost: 3 October 2011

• News and notes: Italian Misplaced Pages shuts down over new privacy law; Wikimedia Sverige produce short Misplaced Pages films, Sue Gardner calls for empathy

• In the news: QRpedia launches to acclaim, Jimbo talks social media, Misplaced Pages attracts fungi, terriers and Greeks bearing gifts

• WikiProject report: Kia ora WikiProject New Zealand

• Featured content: Reviewers praise new featured topic: National treasures of Japan

• Arbitration report: Last call for comments on CheckUser and Oversight teams

• Technology report: Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News