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So stop pointing a finger at me. I'm trying to preserve an NPOV voice. You are making threats and acting like a drama queen. ] (]) 02:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC) So stop pointing a finger at me. I'm trying to preserve an NPOV voice. You are making threats and acting like a drama queen. ] (]) 02:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
:But it was obliterated, Ben-Ze'ev, Efrat (2011) ''Remembering Palestine in 1948: Beyond National Narratives'' Cambridge University Press ISBN 978-0521194471 pp25 ] (]) 16:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC) :But it was obliterated, Ben-Ze'ev, Efrat (2011) ''Remembering Palestine in 1948: Beyond National Narratives'' Cambridge University Press ISBN 978-0521194471 pp25 ] (]) 16:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
:Another one Baramki Azar, George (1992) ''Palestine: a photographic journey'' University of California Press ISBN 978-0520075443 pp125 ] (]) 17:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

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nationality/citizenship

So, at some point Darwish was a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Now he isn't. What happened? Am I correct in thinking that the Israeli state somehow revoked Darwish's citizenship? This is not a troll or an attempt to stir up a political controversy in the article. It's a real question which needs to be cleared up in this article.-jackbrown (talk) 06:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Birth date

According to the Guardian, kirjasto, sakakini (which he writes and edits) 1942. His Website Only according to Jpost and ha'aretz is it 1941?..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Latest Guardian has 15 March 1941...anybody have a copy of Darwish's birth certificate?.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 01:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Darwish himself had his own birth certificate (in 1948 his family fled to Lebanon and i think the certificate was lost). However, i have a book written in 1969 about Darwish by written by egyptian critic rajaa alnakkash. Anyhow, as i recall in this book the correct date was march 1941) i remember him mentioning why there was a mixup... i'll check the book and get back to you later. --Histolo2 (talk) 11:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the dates to 13 March... According to the arabic book "Mahmoud Darwish: Poet of the occupied land" by Rajaa al-nakkash (رجاء النقاش، محمود درويش: شاعر الأرض المحتلة) the book was 1st published in 1969 but I have the 2nd edition. In page 97 the author says Darwish was born in 13 march 1941 (according to a conversation between the author and Darwish in 1971) in the 1st edition the author stated that Darwish was born in 1942 but after the meeting Darwish in 1971 he acknowledged his mistake and corrected it in the 2nd edition. I have no english resource but I hope someone will find one. oops forgot to login --Histolo2 (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Darwish "official site"

This is a site dedicated to him, if he was a pop star it would be considered "the unofficial fan site", most of its arabic content is taken from various articles published about darwish... there is not the Official site, i don't even consider it a reliable source.

BTW i removed the sources of his birth cause both sources states 1942 as his birth year not 1941 see above for the more discussion about it. --Histolo2 (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Clearing up some facts

Some incorrect information is being disseminated here by various editors. 1) Darwish was born in a village in the western Galilee. One editor states that there was no such a thing as the Galilee in 1941. I do seem to remember there was a preacher named Jesus who spent some time there at least a few years before that. 2) Darwish was indeed an Israeli citizen until he was stripped of Israeli citizenship for joining the PLO. He couldn't have joined an Israeli political party if he wasn't. --Gilabrand (talk) 07:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree about that, Darwish was a resident of Israel תושב קבע not a citizen, (like the arabs of eastern jerusalem these days), the reason is that he (and his family) weren't inside Israel at the time of the 1st מרשם אכלוסין... many arabs crossed the borders in 1949 and the early 1950s to Israel, returning to there old villages some got citizenships (e.g. Emile Habibi who was later elected to the knesset) while others didn't, i don't know what was the criterions...
Back to Darwish: according to and interview with him he said he didn't have an Israeli passport and in the editorial of al-itihad back in 1971 the author mentions that Darwish didn't get an Israeli citizenship, both sources are in arabic and i have them from the book i mentioned before (mahmoud Darwish:Poet of the occupied land).... i have searched all over Israeli media in search for some clue about this subject with no success, i have no document stating he was resident of israel but this is the only alternative (if he wasn't a citizen then he must be a resident to b able to live and work), if u could supply with israeli sources about this i'll be gald.

Although there is a a source stating he was stripped from his Israeli citizenships, i think reuters are mistaken, al-iltihad was the newspaper where Darwish had worked and i think they are more reliable in this subject. As i said he had a "blue ID" but not a citizenship.. and u said he was stripped after leaving for the USSR and that is not true he left for USSR at 1970, In february 1971 he went to Cairo (back then Egypt was an enemy of Israel) and after a while he joined the PLO.. the ID was stripped either after going to cairo or after joining the PLO (as your source says)... Anyhow, studying in the USSR was a very common thing amongst members of the communist party and it wasn't a reason for stripping you ID or citizenship or whatever. --Histolo2 (talk) 08:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

To join an Israeli political party, you have to be a citizen. Darwish joined Maki, the Israeli Community party, which he could not have done if he didn't have an Israeli identity card. A "blue ID" is an Israeli identity card. This source - http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218446195852&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull - says he gave up his citizenship to join the PLO.--Gilabrand (talk) 08:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

In an interview with the guardian in 8 jun 2002 he said: 'They applied for identity cards but Mahmoud was refused a passport: "I was a resident not a citizen. I travelled with a laissez passer." At Paris airport in 1968, he says, "they couldn't understand: I'm an Arab, my nationality undetermined, carrying an Israeli document. I was sent back."'

BTW I couldn't open the jpost link, anyhow you've brought sources stating he had a citizenship but they are articles written after his death... i have brought an interview from 2002 and i have an article published in al-itihad (where dariwsih worked) in February 1971 written by someone who knew and worked with Darwish and it states that he had no israeli citizenship. (this was the article which have convinced me)... the article is in arabic. Anyhow, i think my sources are more reliable.... the fact that he joined maki is circumstantial evidence since. as for the ID card arabs of eastern jerusalem have an ID card and get some rights but they don't vote for the knesset... --Histolo2 (talk) 09:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked the ID card thing, according to the Israeli law: "Any resident sixteen years of age or older must at all times carry an Identity card". So the ID is for residents not citizens. more info in Teudat Zehut.
Also an interview in hebrew published in "zu haderech" זו הדרל in 1969 Darwish stated that he "..is still without a citizenship in his country" "ועד היום הזה הנני משולל אזרחות במולדתי" --Histolo2 (talk) 09:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding the difference between an ID card, a blue ID card and a passport. Israeli citizens, including the Israeli Arabs who live in the Galilee and Haifa, receive blue ID cards which entitle them to vote and move around the country freely. Misplaced Pages, by the way, is not a source for anything - the Teudat Zehut article is not an RS by any standards. I repeat: Darwish's family returned to Israel after the war in 1948 and apparently accepted the Israeli citizenship offered to them as Galilee Arabs. Otherwise he could not have joined an Israeli party. Later, in the wake of his political affiliations with al-Ard and other anti-Israeli organizations, he was denied a passport (which is not the same thing as a blue ID card), and traveled to Beirut on a laissez passer. More research needs to be done to establish whether he was "stripped" of his Israeli citizenship when he wanted to return after joining the PLO, or he willingly gave it up. This a point that is clearly being fudged in the interviews, and the use of phrases such as "stripped of citizenship" is suspect, especially since it is merely parroted by one article after another, all of them using Misplaced Pages as an "authority," which is a VERY scary thing, to say the least. --Gilabrand (talk) 10:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

trying to summerize discussion

OK, lets forget the ID card discussion, its not important.

You base your claim on 2 things: 2 article from 2008, and the fact he was a member of maki/rakah.

I brought 3 sources:

  1. An interview published in "zu haderech" in 1969 (before leaving Israel) where he says i'm still without a citizenship.
  2. Another interview much later (in 2002) where he says "i was a resident not a citizen".
  3. An article from 1971 (not available online so lets leave it for now)

Now, lets concentrate in the 1969 interview... it was published Darwish left Israel and it was in hebrew (directed to jewish readers) so he wasn't trying to "smudge" facts, i think this source alone is more reliable than your sources. (i urge you to read the relavent part, i've even put the hebrew text so you could search for it in the article.)

Believe me, i'm not trying to smudge facts, the whole thing started when a user on AR WP wrote in discussion that darwish might have held israeli citizenship and asked for help finding a source. I said (back then) that i think this was true. However, after searching for sources i came to a conclusion he was not a citizen but rather a permanent resident.

I agree with you this needs more research, can you bring source about his citizenship from old israeli papers (for example from 1971, you seem to live in jerusalem so u have access to newspapers archives found in the national library).

anyhow, in my opinion according to the current sources it is more likely that he was a resident, the best source would be an official document but i don't see how can we get it. --Histolo2 (talk) 10:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Additions:

  • Darwish uses the phrase משולל אזרחות במולדתי back in 1969 before leaving israel so he was not referring to israel stripping his citizenship after joining PLO. Also in the arabic article from 71 it said "the israeli autouities denied his request for citizenship". and it was talking about the period before leaving israel.
  • I'm not aware of Darwish joining Al-ard he joined maki in 61, I don't think he joined anti-israeli groups (that is before leaving israel), maki and rakah where legal organizations.
  • The fact that his family returned doesn't mean he could get citizenship, many people who came back were deported, and this was a major issue in the 1950s arabic politics, most of the people stayed but after a long struggle. you can read further on this matter in hilel's cohen, "good arabs".

--Histolo2 (talk) 11:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Membership in al-Ard

The matter is complex. His claim of having no citizenship, by the way, could very well be a "poetic" turn of phrase. I would certainly not take it at face value. His family living in the Galilee clearly has Israeli citizenship, as evidenced by the fact that family members required permits to enter Ramallah for the funeral. Here is a reference to his al-Ard affiliation. "In the mid-1960s he joined Al-Ard, an Arab nationalist movement founded by rebellious young Israeli Arab intellectuals devoted to the teachings of Gamel Nasser. The movement rejected the traditional Arab politics of the Communist party in favor of a more authentically nationalist politics. Israeli intelligence saw Al-Ard as a serious threat and when it put forward a list for the 1965 Knesset, the party was banned. The Shin Bet waged a war of persecution against Al-Ard, a campaign it continues to this day against similarly nationalist Israeli-Arab groups. Darwish was regularly imprisoned or placed under house arrest, experiences which also informed his poetry. Several members of the group, including the poet, eventually went into exile."(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/israelandthepalestinians.poetry)

  • Al-ard membership: Its irrelavent to our discussion but i think the facts here aren't true... Darwish was a member of maki (and rakah after the 1965 split in maki) I remember reading he joined maki in 61, he worked in maki's newspapers... I have a book about him originally written in 1969 (i have the "updated" version of 1972) in that book it clearly states that Darwush was a member of maki, the book explains a bit about israeli arab politics and mentions al-ard but doesn't say anything about darwish being a member of al-ard. In the same book there is the text Darwish read in a press conference where he states that he is a member of rakah and he still believes in their ideology and his acts where unknown to the party's leadership (BTW his actions were criticized both in Israel and the arab world, rakah expelled him for this and it was then when the editorial -i keep mentioning- was published in al-itihad, in the editorial the tone is more delicate and it says though they understood his motivations, they can't agree with his actions). So there is no doubt he was a member of maki/rakah. The problem with the articles you brought is that they were written after his death by people who aren't exactly experts about his life so they might be wrong. I could bring more sources regarding this matter but since its not the subject of our discussion, i think this is enough.
  • Acoording to Maki's regulations to be a member you have to be a resident above 18 of age.
  • Darwishes 1st interview is a bit poetic but when u look at his "non poetic" statement in the guardian and to the 1971 article from al-itihad i think I have a solid case.
  • Again our argument is which sources is more reliable, we both want to search for the truth... (just a couple of days ago i thought the same as you).. i suggest we don't mention this fact till we get clarification about this issue. --Histolo2 (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

photo of mahomoud darwish

There is photo in commons :), im not good at wiki formatting ! http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:MahmoudDarwish.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.6.47.81 (talk) 12:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


External links

Please consider adding this external link to the entry on Darwish

Translation of "Identity Card"

I hope I am writing my message in the right place! I checked the translation of the poem "Identity Card" displayed in the entry. It is different and not as good as the translation displayed in its Footnote (FN13). According to Misplaced Pages rules, translations should be previously published translations. There are other published translations of this poem that are good perhaps even better!Aviva Butt (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Dear Aviva, if you can improve the translation, please do! If you know of a better published translation, you can use it here, but be sure to include just enough of the translation to illustrate the idea or point you want. Because if you include too much, you'll be infringing on the rights of the original translator (not to mention those of the writer). Eitherway I think including large portions of poems in articles is unnecessary. This is also one of his first poems, what about all the other works? Darwish was a prolific writer, and so much was written about him, too. If you're interested, this article is waiting for someone to expand it, especially the literary aspect of it. Regards :) -- Orionist ★ talk 18:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Categories

Why was the category "Arabic poets" removed from this page? hgilbert (talk) 20:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring over Birwa

Modinyr, hgilbert has a valid point on the wording and remember the article is covered by sanctions. Here are some sources (including the Guardian source you both already have). Please can you both find a reasonable policy based compromise. I don't want to file an arbitration enforcement request to sort this out but I will if it is necessary to stop the back and forth.

  • NYT "During the war that led to Israel’s independence, Mr. Darwish and his family, from the Palestinian village of Al Barweh, left for Lebanon. The village was razed but the family sneaked back across the border into Israel, where Mr. Darwish spent his youth."
  • The Guardian "Darwish was born in the village of Birwa, east of Acre. His parents were from middle-ranking peasant families. Both were preoccupied with work on their land and Mahmoud was effectively brought up by his grandfather. When he was six, Israeli armed forces assaulted the village and Mahmoud fled with his family to Lebanon, living first in Jezzin and then in Damour. When, the following year, the family returned to their occupied homeland, their village had been obliterated: two settlements had been erected on the land, and they settled in Deir al-Asad in Galilee."
  • The National "Al Birwa, the village where Darwish spent his earliest years, exists today as little more than a memory - even if one immortalised in his poetry. Its buildings were razed by the Israeli army during the war of 1948 that established the state of Israel by sending 750,000 Palestinians into exile."
  • New Statesman "During the 1948 war, the seven-year-old Darwish and his family had been driven from his birthplace, the village of al-Birwa. Birwa has long been forgotten by the rest of the world. Like more than 400 other Palestinian communities, it was destroyed by the Israeli army to prevent its inhabitants from returning to their homes inside the new Jewish state."
  • Frontline magazine from The Hindu "Darwish was born in 1941 in the Birwa village east of Acre to parents who were middle-range peasants. He was brought up by his grandfather as his parents were busy on their land. He was six when Israel attacked his village and he had to flee to Lebanon with his family. They came back later only to find the village obliterated. So they settled in Galilee."
  • Haaretz "Darwish was born in the village of al-Birwa, which was located east of Acre and destroyed in 1948."

Sean.hoyland - talk 07:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you; these sources are very helpful. hgilbert (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

"Like more than 400 other Palestinian communities, it was destroyed by the Israeli army to prevent its inhabitants from returning to their homes inside the new Jewish state."

Can we trust a polemic, political commentary magazine to make that statement.? In a public interest story? Hgilbert put that phrase in the article. That is irresponsible editting.

A source has to be valid for each situation it is used in. Do the eulogy writers of the New Statesman know why the Iraeli Army did things decades ago?

Please, stick to the facts. I know that Mr. Darwish made his living playing the violin for Palestinians. That doesn't mean we have to add in emotional content to his biography. Modinyr (talk) 19:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

See WP:Verifiability, which opens with "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source" -- two sources clearly support this exactly, more sources back it up as well. These are facts -- not emotions -- your reactions to them are personal though understandable; I also have great sympathy for someone whose village was obliterated or destroyed. hgilbert (talk) 21:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Verifiability does not mean "if you can find something on the internet that says it, than its good." It says it must be a reliable source. A eulogy (a thing meant to be emotional, not journalistic) in a paper that publishes opinion, not news, is not a reliable source for historical facts.

Believe it or not, I think that the story of what happened to Mr. Darwish's hometown is important in the article. His work involves his story. But we can't let the bio of this article be told from the same emotional, political position that Darwish's poetry comes from.

You introduce new sources. This is great, but we could say what must be said with one. Draw from the source without your own synthesis or interpetation. You should self-revert this ... "The village was then destroyed by the Israeli army to prevent its inhabitants from returning to their homes inside the new Jewish state." Seriously, don't you see the problem with this statement? Modinyr (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

There's a serious newspaper (The National) and a serious magazine (The New Statesman), both of which support the statement as it stands. I'm curious what you think happened -- rabbits came and destroyed the buildings? hgilbert (talk) 02:02, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm reverting your misleading, OR, synth, or otherwise irresponsible editing. If you just said "his village got blowned up" that would be one thing, but your edits are attempts at POV.

The National is not a trusted source. The UAE does not have free press. The New Statesman is a left-wing political diatribe with a poor reputation. It's obits are not to be treated like a history article.

I'm not done with my research, but it seems like the village was mostly damaged by fighting. It also seems that by some accounts and definitions, the village was never destroyed, only incorporated into nearby communities. I understand that journalists writing about Darwish's death would use his side of the story. We, at Misplaced Pages, make encyclopedic articles.

Why did you feel it necessary to say "The village was then destroyed by the Israeli army to prevent its inhabitants from returning to their homes inside the new Jewish state." This statement can not be verified. Please, for the love of NPOV, remove it. Modinyr (talk) 05:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly, Ben-Gurion himself said that the villagers couldn't return because the village had been destroyed. I just added it to al-Birwa. Zero 11:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
And The National is a perfectly fine source, if you wish to challenge it please go to WP:RS/N. It very obviously meets the requirements of WP:RS being a major news organization. nableezy - 14:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, zero, I didn't know you put so much stock into the words of Ben-Gurion. Was he saying the village was destroyed by Israeli guns (I think the Jews had a few WWI era field pieces) or destroyed by being absorbed into two neighboring communities? I think you don't know, but assumed what you wanted to already.

The National is a gov't run newspaper. The gov't of UAE is theocratic, dictatorial, and ignores the rights of 80% of the residents. A true aparteid state. We shouldn't trust it when it discusses Yassir Arifat, Iran, or Mahmoud Darwish. Modinyr (talk) 22:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

If you would like to challenge The National please go to WP:RS/N, though you may find that your view does not get the expected response. Additionally, you are ignoring every other source brought so far. You dont get to decide which sources cannot be used, we have guidelines for that sort of thing. As a major newspaper The National is on its face a reliable source, though of course each use of it may be discussed (as with any other source). However, edit-warring to remove the fact that al-Birwa was destroyed is not an acceptable course of action. nableezy - 23:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Nableezy, stop making baseless acqusations. I'm not edit-warring, nor trying to cover up anything. Look at my most recent edit. It removed an almost direct quote from The National. You admit that some sources aren't appropriate for some things. Well, the statement I deleted from the article was an obvious opinion that slipped by the low journalistic standards of The National. It shouldn't be quoted 'round here.

The barrage of sources from Seanhoyboy proved nothing. The article already made mention of the destruction of the town and how the family couldn't live there after the war. The first thing I removed was the unverifiable assertion that the Darwish family was "expelled." I have removed other polemics and needless speculations, in good time and with reasons.

If we'd stop seeing this as a battle, we could get more things done. Instead some are being like the belligerent parties of '48, Jew and Arab. Modinyr (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Really? Baseless accusations? Really? Since you first removed "expelled" on 6 October, you have made 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 reverts over the same or similar material. You reverted on October 12, 15, 17, 18, and 20. A 1 revert rule does not entitle you to one revert per day, each day, and slow motion edit warring remains edit warring. If you continue to edit-war over this material instead of gaining consensus for your change you will likely see either another block or a topic ban. You are right, this is not a battle, so stop using the undo button as a weapon and start actually addressing the fact that several sources say al-Birwa was destroyed after it was depopulated. And again, if you would like to challenge one of the six sources at the top of the section you can do that at WP:RS/N. Just repeating the mantra that any news organization from the UAE is unreliable is not going to cut it. nableezy - 23:17, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Those links don't go to the same revert over and over. GHilbert kept trying to slip in different words. I reverted with reason, because the sources don't back up what is being implied.

Listen... slow. "...the fact that several sources say al-Birwa was destroyed after it was depopulated" is not true. If something "was destroyed" that implies that someone destroyed it. Only the UAE source says the Israeli army destroyed the town. Only one source. It doesn't matter if five sources say "the village was destroyed somehow." That doesn't back up one biased propaganda rag's assertion about who did it.

So stop pointing a finger at me. I'm trying to preserve an NPOV voice. You are making threats and acting like a drama queen. Modinyr (talk) 02:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

But it was obliterated, Ben-Ze'ev, Efrat (2011) Remembering Palestine in 1948: Beyond National Narratives Cambridge University Press ISBN 978-0521194471 pp25 The Last Angry Man (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Another one Baramki Azar, George (1992) Palestine: a photographic journey University of California Press ISBN 978-0520075443 pp125 The Last Angry Man (talk) 17:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
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