Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:11, 4 April 2006

I happened to notice this article and cleaned it up. I removed huge sections of quotes, some of which seemed not be quotes from Frye but arguments to the effect of "Persians good Arabs bad". It would probably be more useful to quote from reviews of Frye's work, if I can find any such. Zora 20:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You are not entitled to change an article to make it suit your needs. --Kash 23:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone is entitled to change any article. I've made a compromise version--feel free to edit it. Chick Bowen 23:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but every single quote in the article is from frye himself, from his book. One can't just discredit it all because of his\her own (politically motivated?) wishes --Kash 23:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

But I left in the quotes in my compromise version--I just took out the parts that were not quotes. You can't call Nasser an Arab chauvinist--that violates WP:NPOV. You can quote anything you want. And are you accusing me of political motivation? I was asked to intervene by ManiF. I have no stake in this battle whatsoever--I don't even know what it's about. If you're not interested in a compromise, then I won't offer one, but the wars will continue. Chick Bowen 00:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Those aren't quotes

Someone apparently attended a lecture by Frye, took notes, and posted the notes. We have NO way of knowing if the notes are accurate. Therefore that section cannot be called quotes. It's an unknown person making unverifiable claims and should not be in an encyclopedia. Zora 05:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The quotes are from Richard Nelson Frye's speech at UCLA. --ManiF 06:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I also saw a link to the UCLA speech once with pictures and all. I think it can be verified.--Zereshk 09:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Can it be verified that he indeed said what someone put on the webpage and in the article? I don't think so. For one thing, I'm fairly sure he's been paraphrased. Whatever I may think of his ideas (forty years out of date) he has a lovely prose style, which is not at all apparent in those supposed quotes.

Quoting is serious business. Journalists can get fired for misquoting. That's why they use tape recorders, if they're not going to run the text by the quotee before publication. None of that is evident here. The web page is not evidence.

If you're so set on this, find a newspaper article that covered the speech, an article by a reputable paper, and we can quote the article. An anonymous person's written notes don't make the cut as encyclopedia material. Zora 09:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Attributing the Frye quotes to the "Iran Heritage Organization" website is in fact fully acceptable within the norms of journalism. Let the reader decide whether "Iran Heritage Organization" is trustworthy or not.--Zereshk 10:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

POV

I'm confused by the section "Dr. Frye on the role of Iran and the Persian language in the formation of Islamic culture". It's calling some people chauvinists and saying someone perverts some spiritualism? Is this the article saying that, or did Rickard Frye say that? Right now it looks very POV even though it's probably just a small matter of clearing up that confusion (putting it in block quotes or something if it's a quote) or changing the wording to be more neutral. –T_if_eg_{o06:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

Hmm, or someone could delete the whole section, that works too. I don't know enough about the subject to tell if any of the deleted material was relevant, but at least what's leftover looks considerably less POV. –T_if_eg_{o07:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

Or, alternatively, we could start an edit war about it. Maybe someone should justify their edits here? –T_if_eg_{o07:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

I keep trying to turn this article into an article about Frye, and various Iranian editors keep reverting to the anti-Arab version. Without even discussing it. This is part of a general dispute roiling many of the Iran-related articles, re the extent to which these articles should express a nationalist POV. Zora 07:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is about Frye, not about Iran

You guys are reverting just because it's ME making the changes, so far as I can tell. I'm not to be allowed to edit any Iran-related articles. Well, in this case you're defending a version full of bad journalism (supposed quotes that aren't quotes), irrelevant material (Frye's views on the architecture of Tehran are NOT what he is known for, and they are just as well expressed in the original, which is linked), and an anti-Arab rant that has nothing to do with Frye.

If you want Frye to be appreciated as a scholar, then focus on HIM. Don't use him as a stalking-horse for your own obsessions. That's doing him a disservice. Zora 07:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I removed the parts that looked laughably POV to me. I don't know about the quotes, are they an inappropriate selection of quotes, or actually inaccurate? –T_if_eg_{o07:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

No, Zora, please stays calm, and assume good faith, and please review the Misplaced Pages's policy of Misplaced Pages:Civility. Dr. Frye is, in fact, a respected scholar specializing in Persian, or Iranian history, so the material are relevant to this article. The article gives quotes by a respected Western scholar, from Harvard U, and although it may seem offensive to some--I don’t know why?--but what matters is the factual nature of it as it relates to the article. Now, another user just erased some words like Arab chauvinists, just because the article does not specify if these are direct quotes by the scholar for whom the article is about, or these are the words of the author who wrote this article; so this seems fair, but, when some users, such as you yourself keep erasing entire sections that are quotes from the scholar’s own book, and are relevant to this article, that is not doing the correct thing. I understand from your other contributions, in other articles, that you try to soften any possible negative image given to Arabs or Muslims, however, that is not the precedent we try to set for writing an encyclopedia, and in fact, that is going down a very slippery slope.Zmmz 07:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is a question for you: Why was so much of that section from here? An unrelated author's opinionated writing transplanted directly into this article? –T_if_eg_{o07:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

I don`t know, but the author himself was quoting R. N. Frye. Nevertheless, I agree with what you erased Tifego, but not with what user Zora keeps erasing, which is really unnecessary. We shouldn`t be here, if we are trying to soften the image of Arabs, Persians, Americans......etc., etc. Being pro or against anything is the wrong mind set for writing an encyclopedia. Zmmz 07:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I`m sorry Tifego, why did you erase the section about Dr. Frye`s observation on the Persian influence on Islamic era?Zmmz 08:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Because those weren't his observations? Did you see my edit comment? The only quote in that section I erased was not a quote of Frye. I removed it because it was completely irrelevent to the article's subject, it is merely something which somebody else said that Frye quoted once, and I cannot find any references that indicate the observations above that quote belong to Frye, either. In fact, all I can find is that they were actually a direct quote of somebody named "Dr. Kaveh Farrokh", who as far as I can tell is not the same person as Richard Frye. –T_if_eg_{o16:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

Zmmz, you seem to be insinuating that if I oppose your efforts, and those of the other Iranian editors, it must be that I have a mission to present Arabs and Islam in a favorable light. So far as I can tell, I am just doing my best to be fair, which sometimes leads to angry charges that I'm anti-Islamic or that I'm a Jew. Have you ever LOOKED at my contributions, Zmmz? The ones re costume history? Polynesia? Hawai'i? Bollywood movies? I fail to see a pro-Arab bias there!

As for the implication that YOU are neutral and I'm not ... um, well, I beg to differ. We both have POVs. What's at issue is letting all POVs have a voice, and presenting them as POVs, rather than official WP "truth". That's what NPOV means. That's the ideal of fairness I'm trying to attain.

I think I'm starting to understand what the Iranian editors see in Frye -- it's that he's someone with mucho status in the Western world who has to a great extent adopted Persian high culture as his own, and takes an Iranian secular nationalist position on many things. But I can't say that in the article without a cite, for which I'm searching. Zora 12:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Zora, please stay calm, and assume good faith; comments like Iranian nationalist POV are uncalled for. Yes, after seeing some odd requests by you, like asking to keep the poet Rumi a muslim, and not insert his nationality in his own article, you stated He migrated from one Islamic principality to another, I did search your contributions, and with all due respect, articles like Bollywood, I believe, seem to be some new contributions, which oddly coincides with a pending ArbCom case you were involved in; yet, if one scans your edits, it will clearly show, 90 percent of your edits are in articles relating to Arabs and/or Islam, which is fine, but you are trying to take quotes and references out, such that in your own words, they make Muslims look bad, they are anti-Arab etc. I have said the same thing to editors that are involved in articles about Persia. The scholarly, and factual integrity of this encyclopedia--Misplaced Pages--needs protection. I am curious as to what edit I may have made that pushes a POV? Please provide me with an edit of mine that is not factual, or universally accepted by scholars? Zmmz 22:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You've been here two months, Zmmz, and I've been here two years. My involvement with Bollywood long pre-dates any involvement with Islam-related articles. The insinuation that I'm editing the Bollywood articles to draw attention away from my dire Muslim plots is ... absurd. Zora 23:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, Zmmz, asserting that Rumi is a "Persian", when he could as easily be called a "citizen" of two other countries, is evidence of a strong POV. You engaged in similar "famous-person-tagging" on the Al-Khwarizmi article. I do not regard my caveats as odd at all. Do read Benedict Anderson on Imagined Communities. Check the Nationalism article for further reading. You are also scolding me for lacking "calm" and not assuming good faith. I'm irked, it's true, but I'm scarcely frothing at the mouth. Nor do I see any reason to assume "good faith" given I have been subjected to a torrent of abuse by various editors as anti-Iranian, racist, etc., and that this solidarity against what you have called "attacks" on Iran-related pages was orchestrated at the Iranian notice board and that you explicitly claimed , and . to be the head of the group.

As for the universally accepted by scholars -- that's not what we mean by NPOV. We're here to document various POVs, not to erase all mention of them. Zora 23:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

No, please review the WP:POINT, and WP:NPOV policies. That is not what academia is all about; maybe the media gives all sides of a story, but not an encyclopedia. You, for example, trying to argue the fact that the ethnicity of the poet Rumi is not Persian per se, and even trying to erase it, is an illustration of my concerns. It is not an encyclopedia’s job to cite all sides of an argument, unless it is absolutely necessary in some cases, in which not enough information is available to us. In the contrary, we are to use mostly factual, and relevant information--our scholars work hard to provide us that information, so by injecting what we think is appropriate, or what is not, we devalue such precious work. And, by doing so, that is going down a slippery slope.Zmmz 23:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Zmmz, you have completely misunderstood NPOV. It is precisely about stating all sides of the argument. It is the element that distinguishes WP from other encyclopedias.

"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." That is from the NPOV policy statement.

As for "accidentally" interspersing my comments with yours -- that wasn't an accident, that is standard practice here on WP. If one is discussing a particular point, it is helpful to insert the comment right after that point. Zora 00:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

My view

I think it's OK to move the Tehran architecture section to the Tehran article itself. I think it would be more befitting there. Then I can add stuff to it there (about the Arch of Tehran). Just my opinion though.

Aside from that, I actually think some of those quotes are highly intuitive and illustrative of an unusually deep understanding of Iran. My favorite quote is the one where he says: "The gate of inquiry should always remain open, this is Shia'ism." That is priceless. I think I read an exact same statement made by Tabatabaei somewhere once, from the old days before the good faith became infested with politics. A large portion of the current form of Shia ideology in Iran originates from, according to Soroush's recent lecture, a group of people stacked around Mesbah Yazdi. We should keep these Frye quotes--Zereshk 22:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Ibn Khaldun

In fact, another user just erased the same translation on the Richard Nelson Frye article, stating in the edit box, the quotes are anti-Arab. Our job as historians is to report the facts in the encyclopedia, regardless of if we agree with it or not. Moreover, I do whole-heartedly believe that scholars know the difference between the word Persian and other in Arabic, such that in Arabic Persian is Al-Farisi. We have to give scholarly work a higher plateau, higher than our own personal opinions. ThanksZmmz 07:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You are ignoring (or ignorant of) 4 important things here:

1. That deleted section of the article said things like "Arab chauvinist" which I don't see how you could possibly interpret as not being anti-Arab, and it was not in a quote.
2. That user gave additional reasons in the edit comments which you did not refute.
3. That section did not contain a quote of Rickard Nelson Frye.
4. That section also appears to be plagiarized from Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's work.

I think those form a valid argument for not having that section in the article until it can be greatly cleaned up. It has nothing to do with the quotes being anti-anything. –T_if_eg_{o16:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

Tifego let me remind you that you need to stay civil and abide by Misplaced Pages:Civility. I suggest you concentrate on the article`s contents, rather than the person involved. Secondly I have been giving you the benifit of the doubt, and in fact, I agreed with you erasing the wordings like "Arab chauvinist", that appears in Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's essay. Also, you erased these words in the Richard Nelson Frye article not here, so you may be confusing the two articles. But, again, you can place dispute tags and join the discussions, but you cannot erase an entire section that comes with citations ans is relevant. The section I am concerned wih is Ibn Khaldun`s observation on Persian scientists during the Islamic era. It does not matter whose quote it is, in fact, it is a quote from Ibn Khaldun himself. Zmmz 21:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Zmmz, please stop reminding me of WP:CIVIL at inappropriate times. I did not even refer to you at all in my 4 points above. Perhaps you misunderstood my use of the word "ignorant"? It is not an insult. It was in fact showing good faith that perhaps you really did not notice these things, by saying that you were probably not purposely ignoring them. In any case, I was not confusing the two articles, I was merely responding to the same topic you brought up on that talk page, which I have moved here because it was off-topic there. Now, my 4 points above have not yet been responded to. –T_if_eg_{o23:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)}

I reminded you to assume good faith, because you stated, “You are ignoring (or ignorant of)...”. Your questions were replied to above, please re-read it. Again, at this point my concern is with the section about Ibn Khaldun`s observation on Persian scientists during the Islamic era. Why did you go ahead and erase that section? That being, even when we are in the middle of a discussion, and you yourself said it should stay, since no other sources were provide to discredit the source, which is a book by a highly respected scholar.Zmmz 00:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)