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Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85

Archive guide Sample PubMed

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Archiving rate

Garycompugeek apparently wants to slow down the archiving rate of the Talk: page, which, for the past six months, has been set to 1 week. For the six months before that it was actually set to 5 days. The reason it's set so short is because the Talk: page generally quickly fills up with WP:NOTFORUM violations, typically from new account anti-circumcision activists, or from the many sockpuppets of TipPt or Joe Circus. Is there a consensus here to slow it down? Jayjg 17:04, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I think a week is perfectly reasonable. It's not as though this is an obscure article that people rarely look at, after all. I'd oppose increasing it to a month. While I'd prefer not to increase it at all, I'd be willing to compromise on a fortnight, with the understanding that it may need to be reduced again if the talk page becomes unmanageable. Jakew (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, a constant archiving rate of one week is sometimes going to lead to current debate material being archived prematurely (e.g. the table of search methods used to establish weight and associated criticism). I support a compromise change to a fortnightly archiving frequency. I'm going to restore the thread with the table because I last updated it on the 24th - four days ago. Any objections? Beejaypii (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I dislike having to go through the archives because a discussion has dragged on, and commenting on a thread in the archives is for posterity. Let us try two weeks and see if it is better, I simply set it to one month because that seems to be the most common denominator. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I also prefer the current one week archiving period, but am willing to test a two week archiving period, with the understanding that it will be switched back to one week without further discussion if the page starts filling again as it so often has in the past. Jayjg 15:56, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Completely agree. We may even need to reduce it to less than one week if subjected to a lot of nonsense, as we have been in recent months. Jakew (talk) 16:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

And, of course, this change is not retroactive, so Gary, please stop trying to restore to this page dead discussions that have already been archived. Jayjg 17:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg, Beejaypii added to the table 4 days ago as this] shows. Why are you edit warring on a talk page about archived discussions? If myself or any other editor wants to discuss anything pertaining to the article, who are you to set a time limit? Please self revert immediantely. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Beejaypii was adding to someone else's table, when he should have been making his own table. In any event, there was no on-going discussion of the material, and no likelihood that any consensus would form regarding changing the lede. Instead, what would inevitably happen is this:

1. Beejaypii would propose shortening or in some way discrediting any material seen as favorable to circumcision, particularly in the lede.
2. You would wholeheartedly agree with whatever Beejaypii proposes.
3. Some IP editor, new editor directed here from an anti-circumcision discussion board, or sock of TipPt or Joe Circus would show up and agree.
4. No-one else commenting would agree to the change.
5. Interminable conversation on the topic.
6. Rinse, repeat.

If you like, I can set up a template for this conversation, with parameters for the specific material Beejaypii finds too "pro-circumcision" this time, and an auto-signature for your inevitable concurrence with whatever Beejaypii says. I might even be able to work out some sort of randomized name for the inevitable IP/sock that shows up too. Perhaps Jakew could create a bot that every couple of days would add standard comments in the conversation - for example

The lede still gives UNDUE weight to the pro-circumcision material X. Beejaypii

Agree completely with whatever he said. Garycompugeek

This article will never improve as long as it relies on JUNK SCIENCE!!!. Joe Circus sock59

How does that sound? Jayjg 17:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I found it quite amusing to read. My perspective is quite different. New editor comes to page and complains about pages neutrality or pages name disparity from Female genital mutilation. Jake reverts and points to some obsure archived thread that goes on for decades discouraging said editor and if the poor editor has the nerve to question or complain more Jayjg generally bites their head off. If things continue to go south Avi generally shows up to back both of you up. Want to talk about gaming the system? Jakew's edit count of 1305 ] by far exceeds anyone elses, ex Avi 561, Tip 556, Jayjg 233, Garycompugeek 173, Beejaypii 104. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what edit counts have to do with anything (they certainly have nothing to do with my comment), but TipPt's actual edit count on the article is almost 700, once you include his various socks (User:Zinbarg etc.) and IPs. Jayjg 00:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Before this thread degenerates any further, I've created a new section below combining the table in question with an adaptation of other, related comments I contributed recently. I hope other editors are prepared to engage in the debate. Beejaypii (talk) 01:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Problematic methodology used to establish sub-topic weight (generally, and with respect to HIV information in the current lead)

Because there has been some confusion about which discussion threads are active or not, I'm bringing together material from two related discussions in this new section to clarify the situation.

Here's the latest version of the table (recently bot-archived four days after the last edit to it) which was originally introduced by Coppertwig with this edit, where he invited "others to edit it and add to it."

In addition to what the search results and criticism offered in the table above suggest, it does seem that the principle of performing PubMed and other searches to establish the relative importance of a sub-topic to a main topic is fundamentally problematic.

Firstly, only sub-topics which are currently newsworthy and being discussed will return significant results: non-controversial sub-topics, whose principles are widely accepted, simply won't be the focus of much discussion and won't return significant results. These kinds of searches do not, therefore, provide an indication of the relative degree of importance of a sub-topic by comparison with another sub-topic where one or more of those sub-topics is currently newsworthy and one or more of the others isn't. And even when comparing two newsworthy sub-topics, these searches still don't provide an indication of the relative degree of importance they have to the main topic.

Secondly, in terms of execution, the search principle lends itself well to searches for sub-topics which can be comprehensively referenced via a single term (as is the case with "HIV", which is an unambiguous and highly prevalent abbreviation) but is much more difficult to perform where a concept may be referred to using a variety of words/phrases, as is the case with foreskin restoration for example, which, to cite a few possibilites, could be referred to as "restoration of the foreskin", "uncircumcision", "restoring the foreskin", "preputial restoration", "foreskin restoring", "restore the prepuce" and even highly contextual variations such as "restore what they've lost", etc.

Thirdly, a search for co-occurring terms reveals nothing about the nature of the relationship between the concepts represented by those terms, aside from an indication, via prevalence of co-occurrence in sources, that there is some relationship.

Finally, why just use PubMed as a dedicated journal search facility, with its biomedical restrictions, why not other academic search facilities such as ScienceDirect? After all, not all sub-topics of circumcision are necessarily medical, e.g. history and religion for starters. Any attempt to establish relative importance of a sub-topic must take as many aspects as possible into account surely? Beejaypii (talk) 01:16, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems there are significant problems involved in trying to justify dedicating a large portion of the lead (currently over 25%) to the HIV issue. The HIV issue is a sub-topic of a sub-topic (medical aspects) of the main article topic, and even within that sub-topic it does not have as direct and intrinsic a relationship to the surgical procedure as other medical aspects. Therefore, and based on closer examination of what seems to be seriously flawed methodology used to justify the weight apportioned to HIV in the lead thus far, I again suggest reducing the HIV coverage in the lead, to this concise summary:

Additionally, strong evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men has led to the WHO recommending circumcision, with respect to that population, as an additional HIV prevention strategy, with the proviso that it should always be considered as part of a comprehensive HIV prevention package.

In particular, I think we need to keep in mind that the main topic of this article is the medical procedure circumcision, with its procedural, historical, religious, cultural (to name a few) sub-topics, as well as sub-topics of those sub-topics. So, any objections to the change I propose? Beejaypii (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Please see previous discussions. Jakew (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to discussions I haven't been involved in (otherwise your request makes little sense) which deal with the criticism of the term co-occurrence search methodology I've introduced into the table above. If that is indeed the case, would you mind pointing me to those discussions? Beejaypii (talk) 12:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

No, Beejaypii, I'm referring to previous discussions in which you've proposed to shorten the HIV material, and others (including myself) have rejected that proposal.

As for your criticism of the "co-occurrence" methodology, I think you've overstated your case somewhat, but I basically agree with your fundamental point that such methodologies are inexact. I've already agreed said so, in Talk:Circumcision/Archive 68#Weight of HIV in lead, where I wrote: "it's a fairly crude methodology". But I continued "it's among the best available", and that's the important point: while a perfect indicator of due weight would be wonderful, we only need a rough estimate. After all, those of us reasonably familiar with the literature should have a good idea of the relative importance of various topics, and we only need the figures to help quantify that. And since we don't have anything better, these data will have to suffice. Jakew (talk) 13:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I also wonder what has changed from the relatively recent discussions we've had about shortening the amount of space given to HIV in the lede. As I recall, the last two times you proposed changing the lede, Garycompugeek inevitably agreed with everything you said, and no-one else did. What has changed since then? Based on the weight given to HIV in recent medical literature about circumcision, the lede should probably devote more space to HIV than it currently does. Jayjg 00:28, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg your attempts to marginalize my comments are quite ineffective. Do you not typically agree with anything Jakew and Avi says? Is it because you are just a puppet or do you have similar viewpoints? Garycompugeek (talk) 13:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not attempting to "marginalize" your comments, I'm just noting the fact that they are invariably just "rah rah" cheers for those of Beejaypii (and occasionally, of any other editor who appears even slightly anti-circumcision). If anyone has "marginalized" your comments, it is you, by dint of their inevitable contents. Jayjg 15:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg if you think "rah rah" cheers is not a marginalizing characterization you are sadly mistaken. I'll not respond further to this thread as it has no value to the article. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Jakew, why refer me to previous discussions that I was actually involved in? Additionally, why refer me to discussions which did not include a detailed analysis of the methodology criticised in the table and accompanying post by me above? The debate has obviously moved forward and those discussions do not provide answers to the points I've made.

If the methodology in question is good enough to be applied, please demonstrate its use to justify 25% of the lead dedicated to the HIV issue. In other words, please provide specific counter arguments to the points I've made.

How can "those of us reasonably familiar with the literature" be confident that the "good idea of the relative importance of various topics" that we "should have" is not influenced by our own prejudices? What are the safeguards? Your assertion sounds like an argument in favour of the POV of yourself and others in the current context.

Jayjg, if you think "the lead should probably devote more space to HIV than it currently does", and if you're confident about that (your use of 'probably' suggests some doubt on your part), please provide arguments supporting your opinion, or at least explain what you mean by "ased on the weight given to HIV in recent medical literature about circumcision". In particular I'd be interested to know how you've ascertained the weight given to HIV and how that pertains to assessing the weight of the HIV issue relative to the main article topic in relation to the relative weight of all other sub-topics to the main article topic. Beejaypii (talk) 03:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Beejaypii, the reason why I referred you to those discussions was because you asked whether there were objections to your proposal to shorten this material. Since several people (including myself) have previously explained their objections to doing so, doing so again seems an inefficient use of time. Jakew (talk) 11:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, this constantly re-asking essentially the same questions is an extremely "inefficient use of time". That's why I'm going to respond here minimally, while noting my previous reasoning and objections, which Beejaypii can assume will never change unless he produces some actually new and convincing material or arguments, which he so far has not. Jayjg 16:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Jakew and Jayjg, if all my arguments above have already been countered, produce the evidence. If my arguments are unconvincing, counter them. Beejaypii (talk) 02:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This has already been done, which is why this is an "inefficient use of time". There is no way of measuring the exact importance of HIV to circumcision, but a review of the recent literature (particularly medical) indicates that it is of significant importance. It is therefore quite obvious that the lede should at least mention the topic, and any editor who suggests removing it entirely, or that it is a "compromise" to even mention it, can be dismissed out of hand, because the arguments put forward for removing it entirely are neither policy-based nor rational (e.g. "JUNK SCIENCE!!!", "it's only relevant to Africa!!!", "an article criticized the WHO's position!!!"). Now, whether one-tenth, one-quarter, or one-third of the lede should be devoted to the topic can never be decided in a purely mathematical way. Rather, editors must examine the different proposals, and see which prose seems to best summarize the topic. From that perspective, proposals designed solely to minimize the amount of text devoted to the topic – as opposed to proposals designed to best summarize the topic - will never achieve consensus, regardless of their purported rationales. Jayjg 20:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

"This has already been done..." Not it hasn't. Produce the evidence.

'...this is an "inefficient use of time"' Depends on your point of view. It's a very easy assertion to make in the course of a debate, but vague and difficult to quantify. It's also what you conclude from your own, unsubstantiated "already been done" assertion.

"...the lede should at least mention the topic." There's a difference between mentioning it and devoting a quarter of the lead to it. Also, there are other sub-topics not mentioned in the current lead at all which one could make the same assertion about.

"...any editor who suggests removing it entirely..." Which obviously doesn't include me.

"(e.g. "JUNK SCIENCE!!!", "it's only relevant to Africa!!!", "an article criticized the WHO's position!!!") Why are you quoting other editors' arguments at me? What's that got to do with my comments in this thread?

"...can never be decided in a purely mathematical way." Sorry, hasn't that been my argument? Glad to see the message has got through.

"...see which prose seems to best summarize the topic." And try to ensure the aspects summarised are relevant enough to the main article to be included, and that the summary is appropriate for the lead, and so on.

"...proposals designed solely to minimize the amount of text devoted to the topic..." Which proposals are you talking about?

Beejaypii (talk) 13:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Beejaypii's proposal. His logic is quite sound and Jake's is quite week. I am making a compromise (a rare bird around here) for I did not want any mention of HIV in the lead and feel its Wp:UNDUE for reasons stated above. The paragraph summarizes the sources well. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:55, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe someone should propose a RfC to get greater input.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The "logic" of using results of intersection of search results is bizarre: Google Books search for "Islam" 30,500,000 results; "Circumcision" yields 2,520,000; together 109,000 results (about 4% of circumcision and 0.3% of Islam), so using the logic posed about, one should remove Islam from the lead before HIV since the relationship appears statistically an order of magnitude weaker. This of course would be preposterous, given that many (most?) circumcisions are following the precepts of Islam rather than for HIV or anything else that ails you. Just another statistical argument that amounts to nada, like virtually the entire thread above. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you about the search methodology. However, I'm not sure what your stance is in relation to this discussion topic: are you arguing that dedicating roughly 25% of the current lead to the HIV sub-topic is justified or not? Beejaypii (talk) 07:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The lead should identify what the topic is, why it's important (or at least notable), and do a quick summary of the major points to be delved into. Perhaps the lead on HIV can be shortened to the simple first statement "strong evidence..." and leave the rest for details, but some may claim that the bald statement without some further clarification is biased in which case the additional statements are added to provide balance - and if that takes up space, well - WP is full of space. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

I also have stated that search results seem a peculiar way to justify material inclusion especially for the lead which should simply summarize the article's sections. Why are we sensationalizing one particular heavily controversial section? Proponents of the current lead have statistical nonsense on their side while those of us in favor of removing or reducing HIV's prominence from the lead have policy and strong logic on their side. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

We're not "sensationalising", Gary, we're why the topic is interesting or notable, and summari the most important points". And, since "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources", we're attempting to give emphasis to material that is given considerable emphasis in reliable sources. Jakew (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

In what way do HIV/circumcision sources demonstrate that HIV is so important to the topic of circumcision that a lead coverage of 25% is justified in the circumcision article? Beejaypii (talk) 18:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

We've already had that discussion. Jakew (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

It should be easy for you to answer my question then. Beejaypii (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

One obvious reason is that circumcision is done for different reasons in different countries and cultures - it would be very Judeo-Muslim or Anglo-American centric to not mention the number one reason it is being introduced to people in traditionally non-circumcising areas or cultures. If you were writing an article Circumcision in Saudi Arabia, the HIV angle is probably of minimal to no importance at all. But we're not writing that article here, we need to be more global and obviously the HIV angle is notable in the lead absolutely consistent with policy. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be answering the question "why should HIV be mentioned in the lead?" What I want to know is what justification is there for 25% of the lead (the current situation) being dedicated to this issue? Beejaypii (talk) 15:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Which has already been answered: since reliable sources give it considerable weight, so should we. Asking the same question over and over again isn't constructive. Jakew (talk) 16:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

You keep claiming the question has been answered without substantiating that claim. If it's been answered, answer it. It's easy. I'm quite prepared to point editors to specific, previous comments if I think a question has already been answered. Why aren't you prepared to do that in this case? Beejaypii (talk) 17:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

See Jayjg's comment here, for example, which explains why that it isn't even meaningful to ask for a source-based justification of a precise percentage. Yet oddly you continue to demand such justification. Stranger still, your proposal would represent (at a guess) 8-10% of the lead, but you have failed to provide any source-based justification indicating that this should be the percentage. This would seem inconsistent with the position that such justifications should be required. Jakew (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Your comment is based on the erroneous presumption, on your part, that a request for a demonstration of the effectiveness of a methodology equates to advocating that methodology. Additionally, my position is not that "such justifications should be required"; my position is that such justifications are not possible, which is why I presented my earlier suggestion for the lead summary of the HIV issue in the following way:

It seems there are significant problems involved in trying to justify dedicating a large portion of the lead (currently over 25%) to the HIV issue. The HIV issue is a sub-topic of a sub-topic (medical aspects) of the main article topic, and even within that sub-topic it does not have as direct and intrinsic a relationship to the surgical procedure as other medical aspects. Therefore, and based on closer examination of what seems to be seriously flawed methodology used to justify the weight apportioned to HIV in the lead thus far, I again suggest reducing the HIV coverage in the lead, to this concise summary:

Additionally, strong evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men has led to the WHO recommending circumcision, with respect to that population, as an additional HIV prevention strategy, with the proviso that it should always be considered as part of a comprehensive HIV prevention package.

In particular, I think we need to keep in mind that the main topic of this article is the medical procedure circumcision, with its procedural, historical, religious, cultural (to name a few) sub-topics, as well as sub-topics of those sub-topics.

My stance is basically that the methodology used to justify a significant portion (one quarter) of the lead dedicated to a sub-topic of one aspect (medical) of the main article topic is bogus. Therefore, an approach which does not seek to significantly emphasise a single sub-topic, relying on concise summaries and appropriate detail, seems fair and sensible.

I asked for justification for 25% of the lead dedicated to the HIV issue earlier. Your first response was "We've already had that discussion." After further prompting, and the intervention of another editor, you stated "...since reliable sources give it considerable weight, so should we." - basically supporting the methodology in question. Then you begin your next response by advocating the comments of another editor (Jayjg) which attack the methodology in question (?) - a paradox I also addressed in my original response to that editor - and you try to imply that I'm the one who's advocating that methodology because I asked for a demonstration of its applicability.

I'm arguing that it's not possible to demonstrate that the HIV issue is so important to the topic of the surgical procedure male circumcision that a significantly greater proportion of the lead should be dedicated to that issue than any other sub-topic. Therefore, a non-emphatic approach should be adopted - which seems to be the most neutral approach under the circumstances. You seem to be striving to support the unsubstantiated emphasis on the HIV issue extant in the current lead. Demonstrate why that emphasis, relative to other aspects and sub-topics, is substantiated. Beejaypii (talk) 09:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

As others have explained to you previously, policy requires that we follow the emphasis given in reliable sources: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources". So there really isn't room for discussion about that: your belief that we should adopt "an approach which does not seek to significantly emphasise a single sub-topic" is contrary to policy. The question remaining is, do reliable sources give significant emphasis to HIV? The answer is, quite clearly, yes. Jakew (talk) 10:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Could you explain your interpretation of "emphasis in reliable sources"? As far as I can see, the HIV/circumcision sources have little reason to discuss aspects of the article topic which are not pertinent to the HIV issue. Are you interpreting that to mean those aspects not mentioned are therefore not important? All those sources really indicate is the importance of circumcision to the topic of HIV transmission prevention, not the relative importance of HIV to the topic of circumcision. And as far as working contrary to policy, I think the approach I'm advocating, in the absence of a valid means of establishing relative weight, is in keeping with the spirit of the policy:

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. WP:UNDUE

Again, unless you can demonstrate that the HIV issue deserves weight amounting to 25% of the lead according to it you are working against policy. Beejaypii (talk) 14:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You're making a fundamental error of logic there, Beejaypii. Since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, not demonstrating something would not indicate working against policy. Secondly, I am absolutely astounded at your implication that the "spirit of the policy" is such that one can effectively ignore it by picking holes in every proposed method to ascertain the significance according to sources, then protesting that there is no "valid means of establishing relative weight". That's like arguing that since speedometers have limitations, the spirit of the laws dictating speed limits is such that one should drive as fast as one likes. The best way to adhere to the spirit of the policy is to try to judge weight using the best methods one can find, as even flawed methods are likely a better approximation than pretending that all issues have equal weight.

In any case, plenty of evidence has already been provided indicating that sources give HIV considerable weight. These include the various searches shown above, as well as my observation back in July that "8 of the 20 (40% of) items on the first page of results refer to HIV in the title".

If you wish to assert that the proper weight is less than what is currently given, you cannot escape the onus of proof. Find a better method of determining the weight given by reliable sources and propose it. Until then there doesn't seem to be a case for changing it. Jakew (talk) 15:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"You're making a fundamental error of logic there, Beejaypii. Since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, not demonstrating something would not indicate working against policy"

I'm not sure what you mean there. Would you explain exactly how you are applying that here please: which "evidence" do you regard as "absent" and which "absence" do you regard as not "evidenced", and how does that relate to the point you're trying to make. I'm always a little suspicious when someone involved in a debate begins resorting to these kinds of aphorisms instead of addressing the details of the debate directly - it can often serve to confound rather than to clarify.

"If you wish to assert that the proper weight is less than what is currently given, you cannot escape the onus of proof."

I'm arguing that we cannot ascertain the proper weight in this case. Therefore, we should strive to ensure that one aspect is not apportioned a percentage of the lead which is out of proportion to the amount of the lead dedicated to any other aspect. We can do that by summarising the aspect in question concisely, in keeping with the treatment of other aspects in the lead. I think that amounts to following, as far as is reasonably possible in this case, the policy requirement to strive to avoid giving undue weight to any aspect of the subject. You, on the other hand, are striving to ensure that one aspect (HIV) continues to dominate the lead relative to all other aspects, to the tune of 25% coverage. The onus is on you to prove that such a considerable apportionment of the lead to that one aspect is warranted. You have not done that, and ignoring difficult criticisms of the methodology you advocate is no substitute.

Your assertion about the various searches and the PubMed searches seems to deliberately ignore all the points I've made in the table at the beginning of this thread, and the comments I posted beneath it. If that's going to be your strategy I'll simply make the points again as the debate continues.

And fundamentally, you seem to be confusing prevalence of discussion of the main topic (circumcision) in relation to the subtopic (HIV) in sources focussing on one aspect of the main topic (medical), with prevalence of a viewpoint that the subtopic (HIV) is significantly more important than any other subtopic of circumcision. Beejaypii (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I was referring, Beejaypii, to your claim that "unless you can demonstrate that the HIV issue deserves weight amounting to 25% of the lead according to it you are working against policy", as I'm sure was perfectly obvious.

Regarding your claim of undue weight, undue weight is, by definition, where something is given greater weight than is appropriate. Thus, in order to make such a claim, you would have to demonstrate that the appropriate weight for that topic is smaller. But by saying that "we cannot ascertain the proper weight in this case", you've actually contradicted your own argument: if you cannot say what the proper weight should be then you have no way of knowing that the weight given is undue. What you are essentially saying is "I am ignorant about the appropriate amount of weight". That's not an argument for changing it. Jakew (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You said 'I was referring, Beejaypii, to your claim that "unless you can demonstrate that the HIV issue deserves weight amounting to 25% of the lead according to it you are working against policy", as I'm sure was perfectly obvious.' - I actually asked "Would you explain exactly how you are applying that here please: which "evidence" do you regard as "absent" and which "absence" do you regard as not "evidenced", and how does that relate to the point you're trying to make." Your response amounts to a simple reproduction of an extract of my post, which doesn't explain your use of the phrase "Since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, not demonstrating something would not indicate working against policy." Instead of relying on that aphorism, explain what you actually mean, because it isn't obvious to me, and you're the one who made the assertion.

As for the rest of your post, it ignores what I said previously "I'm arguing that we cannot ascertain the proper weight in this case. Therefore, we should strive to ensure that one aspect is not apportioned a percentage of the lead which is out of proportion to the amount of the lead dedicated to any other aspect. We can do that by summarising the aspect in question concisely, in keeping with the treatment of other aspects in the lead. I think that amounts to following, as far as is reasonably possible in this case, the policy requirement to strive to avoid giving undue weight to any aspect of the subject." In contrast, you are basically asserting that in the absence of a means of ascertaining relative weight (demonstrate the application of such a means if you disagree about that absence) it is acceptable to apportion weight to a particular aspect disproportionately to the weight apportioned to all other aspects, even without being able to demonstrate why it is acceptable to do so. I repeat my previous assertion: you are the one who is striving to ensure that one aspect (HIV) continues to dominate the lead relative to all other aspects, to the tune of 25% coverage. The onus is on you to prove that such a considerable, exclusive apportionment of the lead to that one aspect is warranted. Beejaypii (talk) 14:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Beejaypii, you are the person who keeps claiming that "25%" is an inappropriate amount of the lede to devote to HIV, so you must prove that some other percentage is appropriate. What percentage is that, and how do you know? Jayjg 15:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not the figure which is important, it's the percentage relative to the portion of the lead attributed to one aspect as compared to the proportion dedicated to other aspects. In the case in point, the 25% apportioned to the HIV aspect is disproportionate to the % apportioned to other aspects (I assume you agree with that, percentage-wise at least?). If you like I can create another table, breaking down the current lead, sentence by sentence, proposition by proposition; that will not support your stance that the HIV aspect deserves significantly greater coverage in the lead than any other aspect of the main topic however. My stance, as I've repeatedly explained, is that we cannot ascertain the relative weight of different aspects of the article topic (if we can, show me how), therefore, a concise treatment of each aspect mentioned in the lead is the approach which avoids any one aspect being emphasised unduly, as far as we can know. Unless you and Jakew (and others) can demonstrate why the HIV aspect deserves a significantly greater portion of the lead than any other aspect of the topic you are effectively promoting an unsubstantiated POV. My POV, on the other hand, is not that any particular aspect is less or more important than another, it's that we cannot ascertain whether that is the case or not, and a concise summary of each aspect included in the lead (though there are other discussions about which aspects should actually appear in the lead, and which aspects should be covered in the whole article even) is therefore the most neutral approach in the absence of evidence. Apportioning a significantly greater portion of the lead to any particular aspect in the absence of evidence is not a neutral approach. Beejaypii (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Beejaypii, obviously the percentage is important to you, otherwise you wouldn't keep repeating (and protesting) that "the 25% apportioned to the HIV aspect is disproportionate". It's also obvious that a lede cannot mention every point mentioned in the article - I've never seen an FA lede that did so, for example, since it would make most ledes far too long: therefore, "a concise summary of each aspect" seems impractical, not to mention a violation of WP:LEDE. WP:LEDE advocates summarizing the "most important points" of the article in the lede (not "each aspect"), and states that "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources" - not at all what you're advocating in your comment. Now, can you show us what formula you used to calculate that "the 25% apportioned to the HIV aspect is disproportionate", and explain what the actual percentage should be? Jayjg 17:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"Beejaypii, obviously the percentage is important to you..." I don't know what you mean. Important to me? The percentage of 25% is roughly the amount of the lead apportioned to the HIV aspect. In this article lead that is disproportionate to the % dedicated to any other aspect. Do you dispute that? I'm not making a global assertion about article leads in general, such that 25% of any article lead dedicated to any one aspect of an article topic is disproportionate. You do realise that don't you?

"It's also obvious that a lede cannot mention every point mentioned in the article" Er, where did I claim it should?

'...therefore, "a concise summary of each aspect" seems impractical,' Now I understand, whether intentional or not, your "It's also obvious..." statement, above, is a straw man.

"the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources" I assume you have sources according to which HIV is more important to circumcision than any other aspect then?

'Now, can you show us what formula you used to calculate that "the 25% apportioned to the HIV aspect is disproportionate", and explain what the actual percentage should be?' The 25% is the % of the text, by word count, of the lead apportioned to HIV (roughly) - no formula required to ascertain that. I don't know what the percentage should be - point is that it's not possible to ascertain (if it is, show me how) - but in this article that 25% is significantly greater than the % apportioned to any other aspect of the article topic. Therefore, I'm advocating the most neutral approach, which is not to apportion a significantly greater portion of the lead to any one particular aspect in the absence of evidence supporting such relative emphasis, which seems a more neutral than campaigning for one aspect of the article topic to be apportioned significantly more of the lead than any other aspect, in the absence of evidence supporting such relative emphasis. Can I also draw your attention to the wording at the top of WP:LEAD, in the "style-guideline" template: "This guideline is a part of the English Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style. Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions." Beejaypii (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Abitrary break 2

@Garycompugeek - yes, it is: Beejaypii is the one advocating removal of material based upon in. Since you apparently agree that such an effort is "peculiar", perhaps we can move beyond it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlossuarez46 (talk • contribs)

No, I'm arguing that the methodology which has been used by other editors to justify a large portion of the lead dedicated to the HIV issue is bogus. If you read the whole thread you'll find this comment from me:

It seems there are significant problems involved in trying to justify dedicating a large portion of the lead (currently over 25%) to the HIV issue. The HIV issue is a sub-topic of a sub-topic (medical aspects) of the main article topic, and even within that sub-topic it does not have as direct and intrinsic a relationship to the surgical procedure as other medical aspects. Therefore, and based on closer examination of what seems to be seriously flawed methodology used to justify the weight apportioned to HIV in the lead thus far, I again suggest reducing the HIV coverage in the lead, to this concise summary:

Additionally, strong evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men has led to the WHO recommending circumcision, with respect to that population, as an additional HIV prevention strategy, with the proviso that it should always be considered as part of a comprehensive HIV prevention package.

In particular, I think we need to keep in mind that the main topic of this article is the medical procedure circumcision, with its procedural, historical, religious, cultural (to name a few) sub-topics, as well as sub-topics of those sub-topics.

Pay attention, in particular, to the last bit, where I'm basically calling for a common sense approach based on consideration of the topic as a whole with its various sub-topics.

Feel free to argue for 25% of the lead dedicated to a sub-topic (HIV) of one aspect (medical) of the main article topic. I look forward to seeing your reasoning. Beejaypii (talk) 15:25, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, as has already been pointed out, it is you who keep bringing up the "25% of the lead dedicated to HIV", and arguing it is inappropriate, so it is you who must explain what percentage is appropriate, and how you have calculated this. Jayjg 15:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not the figure which is important, it's the percentage relative to the portion of the lead attributed to one aspect as compared to the proportion dedicated to other aspects. In the case in point, the 25% apportioned to the HIV aspect is disproportionate to the % apportioned to other aspects (I assume you agree with that, percentage-wise at least?). If you like I can create another table, breaking down the current lead, sentence by sentence, proposition by proposition; that will not support your stance that the HIV aspect deserves significantly greater coverage in the lead than any other aspect of the main topic however. My stance, as I've repeatedly explained, is that we cannot ascertain the relative weight of different aspects of the article topic (if we can, show me how), therefore, a concise treatment of each aspect mentioned in the lead is the approach which avoids any one aspect being emphasised unduly, as far as we can know. Unless you and Jakew (and others) can demonstrate why the HIV aspect deserves a significantly greater portion of the lead than any other aspect of the topic you are effectively promoting an unsubstantiated POV. My POV, on the other hand, is not that any particular aspect is less or more important than another, it's that we cannot ascertain whether that is the case or not, and a concise summary of each aspect included in the lead (though there are other discussions about which aspects should actually appear in the lead, and which aspects should be covered in the whole article even) is therefore the most neutral approach in the absence of evidence. Apportioning a significantly greater portion of the lead to any particular aspect in the absence of evidence is not a neutral approach. Beejaypii (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

So is circumcision "special", in your assessment that it is impossible to ascertain due weight, or should WP:UNDUE always be interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says? Just curious. Jakew (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I've no idea whether circumcision is "special". I would have to collect data from the analysis of similar issues across a suitably large sample of article content discussions, at the very least, in order to even come close to providing any kind of substantiated answer to that question. Additionally, I believe you've formulated a logical fallacy of the Affirming a disjunct type: you've presented a mutually exclusive choice between circumcision is "special" because it is impossible to ascertain due weight and WP:UNDUE should always be interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says. But that's rather academic anyway, because the second of those two propositions is an example, I believe, of Begging the question, assuming, as it does, that WP:UNDUE HAS been "interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says." If you'd like to reformulate your query using non-fallacious arguments I'll try to respond. Beejaypii (talk) 21:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Beejaypii you will not convince the gatekeepers with logic. They will simply obstruficate with circular logic and false dichotomies. This will ONLY be settled by following dispute resolutions. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, it certainly won't be "settled" by making drastic changes that have no consensus. Nor will it be "settled" by making personal attacks on those you disagree with. Jayjg 16:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the false accusation of a "personal attack" is, in fact, a personal attack itself. Wimp O'pede (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Something of a moot point, though. Jakew (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, particularly when one editor accuses other editors of being "gatekeepers" who "simply obstruficate with circular logic and false dichotomies". I wonder, is the false accusation of a false accusation of a personal attack also a personal attack? And it's odd how yet another "new" editor has shown up on this Talk: page to "fight the good fight". Jayjg 17:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

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