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Archived talk: 2004 2005 2006

Smackbot request

Hi, Rich. Could you, please, exclude the "xxxx in Fooian television" series (such as 1930 in television) from the Smackbot's delink list? These series is one of the few places where linking months makes sense (due to the way tables are laid out). I reverted the changes made so far. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 13:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. Consider it done. Any other requests, or if this crops up again, please let me know. Rich Farmbrough 13:54 23 March 2006 (UTC).

Mediation update

To be fair if you really want to continue it then by all means do, but I will agree to revert the -IYE to -YE for -ЫЕ, whilst keeping all of my other edits (-YI,-IY, I for Й, ye for E only in start of words. Also I just noticed how you edited Lyublinskaya Line, do explain to me why Maryino when there is no Й in Марьино? Also why Dostoyevskaya, when the article is titled Fyodor Dostoevsky. Why not then Kiyevskaya? (Sorry for being a pain in arse, but then you know the feeling of constantly pressuring someone about a logical correction, and WP policy does say use the most common words, I do dare you to google the latter - Kiyev) :) On the positive side, I have compleately recategorised the wikicommons on Moscow Metro (link from the Metro page). I do need as many high-quality images that can be found. Would it be too much to ask you to snap a few? Particulary of the newer addtions Delovoi Tsentr, second exit of Mayakovskaya, Vykhino after reconstruction... Also all of the Metro templates now have actual links from the station bullets. --Kuban Cossack 00:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I intend to proceed with the mediation. The reason for it, however, is not to establish whose transliteration system is right or better, it is to upheld existing rules until such time as they are amended. If current rules mandated using "q" for a soft sign, that's what I would be enforcing now. If that approach of mine seems a bit excessively bureaucratic to you, I am sorry, but that's how I understand my admin duties. With all that in mind, I'm more than open to listening to your or anyone else's suggestions at WP:CYR. Now, as for your questions:

• WP:RUS currently requires using "y" for a soft sign followed by a non-iotated vowel (it is conventional);
  • on a ratio of 1:2 vs Ilich, I would not say so. Besides this where the apostrophe is really needed in translits.--Kuban Cossack 14:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
• I don't remember what happened to "Ki(y)evskaya"; most likely I missed it when I was making changes. The reason why I insist that particular word and words similar to it are spelled differently ("Kiev" vs. "Kiyevskaya"; "Dostoevsky" vs. "Dostoyevskaya", etc.) is due to the fact that these are different entities the names of which are governed by different rules. Kiev is a city in Ukraine, which is very well-known to English speakers, and its name is governed by the "use common English" rule. Kiyevskaya, on the other hand, is a relatively obscure (compared to the city, anyway) metro station, for which "common English use" rule would not apply, and which, therefore, falls under transliteration provisions. The latter mandate the "ye" spelling for "е" following a vowel. Same goes for Dostoevsky (a well-known writer) and Dostoyevskaya (a little-known station). I am not asking you to agree with me, but I hope you at least see what my logic is. Perhaps the issue of derivative names can be covered separately at WP:CYR, but to me it would just mean complicating already over-complicated rules.
  • Do google Kievskaya Metro vs Kiyevskaya Metro and see for yourself: 60,400 vs 140 ... tsk tsk tsk.--Kuban Cossack 14:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I know, I know. The thing is, it is my firm belief that it is better to have one translit system that covers all cases, even if it occasionally leads to 60,400:140 ratios, than to have review each word on case-by-case basis.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
• As for the metro pictures, I would be more than happy to help, but that would require me to take a trip to Moscow, which I was not planning to do any time soon :) I live in the U.S. Midwest, actually. I am sure, though, that if you ask around at the Russian portal, you'll find some Muscovites who would agree to help. You did a great job on the metro overall, though—pretty impressive!
  • No prob, thanks anyway!--Kuban Cossack 14:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hope this answers your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need anything else.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 14:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Просьба

Пишу по-русски, так как дело касается нашего раздела. У нас тут несколько накалилась ситуация с админами, вандалами, троллями и прочими дрязгами (см. ru:ВП:ВУ). Ты человек опытный, и как я уже не раз убедился дотошный и справедливый. Не мог бы ты уделить немного внимания нашему мини-сообществу, мне кажется что тебе как человеку незамешанному в этих скандалах будет проще дать дельный совет (анализ). Не уверен, какой он может иметь статус, но для меня лично это будет очень важным мнением. Как знать, возможно что немного поучаствовав в нашем сообществе ты принесёшь бОльшую пользу Википедии, чем отредактировав 100 статей здесь. Ну а нет, так нет, ничего страшного. Заранее спасибо. MaxiMaxiMax 09:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Привет, Макс. Я честно прочитал ru:ВП:ВУ от и до и, причесав вставшие дыбом волосы, решил, что это удовольствие не для меня. Все эти кто-то на кого-то обиделся, "Андрюшка меня ка́кой обозвал", "а я сказал, а он сказал, а мы подумали" — не для меня это. Пока все разбираются в том, кто кого обидел, дело стоит. И очень уж много нелицеприятных моментов как со стороны юзеров, так и админов, да и культура дискуссий оставляет желать лучшего. Стало понятно, отчего в английской Википедии там и тут начали появляться сбежавшие русские википедисты. Поэтому, как бы я ни рад был помочь, в данном конкретном случае будет это как с пятого этажа мордой в грязь. Да и правила в русской Википедии другие — мой тутошний админский опыт, боюсь, там многого стоить не будет, а изучение мною ваших конкретных правил вряд ли чем-либо окупится. Хотелось бы дать какой-нибудь умный совет по улучшению ситуации, да только вот ничего кроме "будьте взаимно вежливы" в голову не идёт. Очень, очень грустно. Вот такой вот мой анализ :(—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 17:10, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Понятно, спасибо и на том. Мне тоже грустно. Несомненно, все стороны вели себя небезупречно и за несколько лет пока ru_wiki была маленькой и ненаселённой, админы (я в том числе) расслабились, точных правил не создавалось, всё делалось в расчёте на здравый смысл и добрую волю. Сейчас же явно появляются непримеримые противоборствующие группировки, упрямо стоящие на том то именно они владеют истиной, а их противников нужно изгнать или как минимум заставить замолчать. Мы сейчас довольно плотно работаем над правилами, которые как ограничат произвольные действия админов, так и дадут им неоспоримые права по наведению порядка, я надеюсь что это поможет. Несомненно, нужно также проводить работу по улучшению атмосферы в сообществе, повышению культуры дискуссий и доброго отношения друг к другу. Просто выгнать зачинателей раздоров с обоих сторон мы не можем, да и не даст это ничего. Без ясно выраженной позиции всего сообщества, направленной против раздоров, одними только административными мерами, как мне кажется, не удастся добиться результата. Проблема в том, что многим участникам не хочется заниматься всеми этими разборками и их отношение понятно. Ну ладно, куда деваться, нужно что-то с этим делать. MaxiMaxiMax 17:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ну вот, мне теперь тоже стыдно, что я предпочёл отсидеться.

Административными правилами, вообще говоря, можно очень много чего добиться. Проблема, как я её вижу, в том, что у вас в админах слишком много людей, у которых есть перманентные проблемы с самоконтролем (тебя я к ним не причисляю), и они начинают этими правилами махать направо и налево для доказательств своей точки зрения. Это, естественно, никому не нравится, и правила начинают обмусоливаться ради самого процесса. Конечная цель (создание нормальной атмосферы для создания энциклопедии) при этом забывается. Обзываться, оно, конечно, нехорошо, но тратить потом своё и других участников время на выяснение того, какой параграф был нарушен и те ли люди были наказаны и надо ли было их вообще наказывать и если да то согласно тому ли параграфу который был упомянут изначально, по-моему, очень глупо и бесполезно — к моменту выявления истины изначальный повод спора будет всеми окончательно забыт, и на руках будет только разъярённая толпа недовольных правилами/админами/друг другом/жизнью вообще пользователей, которые не упустят случая продолжать разборки при следующем удобном случае. Как при этом продолжать работать над энциклопедией — непонятно.

В общем, не хочу никого учить жить — очень надеюсь, что разберётесь сами. Не знаю, насколько мой совет будет полезен, но я бы порекомендовал продолжать разрабатывать правила, и в особенности механизм привлечения админов к ответственности за слишком вольное их применение (участие админа в войне правок с последующей им защитой статьи от редактирования с целью закрепления своей версии, например, вообще ни в какие ворота не лезет). Just my two roubles worth :)—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

«Стало понятно, отчего в английской Википедии там и тут начали появляться сбежавшие русские википедисты.»
Здорово сказано, чёрт возьми. В точку. :-))) --exile The Wrong Man 18:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Category:Cities and towns in Russia

You're welcome, and it looks like you have done most of the work. Nothing was left for me :) Conscious 06:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Ostafievo

I reverted your edits in Ostafievo International Airport because Ostafievo is the official name and used in the official website of the company as well as other English sources, documents and promotional materials.--Nixer 06:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I replied at Talk:Ostafievo International Airport.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 13:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Привет!

Привет! As I have found out and i am sure that you are a reliable and fair person, I 'll ask: Why so many people from Russian Misplaced Pages go to English(American?) Misplaced Pages. Почему?—This unsigned comment was added by Kniaz (talk • contribs) .

Hi there, Kniaz! I cannot speak for all Russian users, of course, but it seems to me that the a good portion of Russian users who edit English Misplaced Pages live outside of Russia. They all probably have their own reasons for avoiding Russian Misplaced Pages. I, for example, having lived in the U.S. for several years, find that it is easier for me to coherently put my ideas in writing in English than in Russian. It is also more interesting for me to build up on an already existing foundation of over one million articles. English language overall is more precise and structured than Russian, which fits better with my way of thinking. I also don't like the "looks good let's leave it like that" attitude that is all too common in Russian Misplaced Pages. Others may have different reasons. Also, the atmosphere in Russian Misplaced Pages has not been very healthy recently. Continuous scandals, revert wars, content disputes presented as vandalism are, unfortunately, very common these days. It's not that we don't have the same problems in English Misplaced Pages, but they are harder to avoid there due to a much smaller number of articles. People who know English fairly well may find themselves to be more productive here than there.

Finally, I see that you are calling the English Misplaced Pages "American". That's not entirely true. There are plenty of American editors, of course, but since English is a de facto international language, it would be more accurate to regard the English edition international.

I don't know if this answers your question well, but hey, I tried :) See you around and don't forget to have fun.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I have different reason. I see many lies in English Misplaced Pages and as the number of users here is higher, the lies spread very fast and I think even can influate the real life and what the people think. My opinion is that number of conflicts in English Misplaced Pages is much higher especially due the fact that many users of it came from different countries with different views. It is much easier to avoid conflicts in Russian wikipedia.--Nixer 17:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Kaliningrad Oblast

Hello, Ezhiki! So you would prefer I keep the towns in Category:Cities and towns in Kaliningrad Oblast for now?

Also, I noticed your corrections to the Kaliningrad Oblast articles with .ogg files I had uploaded. I have been applying your style to my .ogg inclusions in other articles now as well. Would you mind taking a look at the intros to some Polish cities with IPA to see if you can improve upon my changes? The ones I have edited so far are: Wrocław, Toruń, Gdańsk, Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Malbork, and Elbląg (I think that's it). Olessi 22:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Category:Cities and towns in Kaliningrad Oblast is here to stay permanently. It was created as a part of the bigger Category:Cities and towns in Russia project, when the latter cat grew to over 500 entries, and it was requested that subcats be created. Cities and towns in Kaliningrad Oblast is just one of those cats.

As for the style I introduced, it was actually meant as a quick fix so it would be possible to have the audio link but still retain {{lang-ru}}. I am not claiming it to be the final solution, and it can probably be improved somehow. You did, however, implement it exactly the same way I would have in the articles you asked me to check. The only thing is that I would separate different language versions with a semicolon instead of a comma, but again, I don't think there is a rule to that effect.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 13:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, and thanks for fixing the civic rights redirect! Olessi 22:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Another mediation update

Per your request to reassign this mediation, I've listed it as unassigned. As it has been open for some time without any activity, I'm asking that the parties re-confirm that they are still interested. Please do so on Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Romanization of the Russian language. Once both of you have signed, I'll find someone to take the case. Essjay 01:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Essjay.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 13:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Got it

I do agree that english is language that isn't as complicated as russian (try reading the poems, expessioly Alexander Pushkin). Thanks for pointing it out for me, but I have been to russian wikipedia only few times, since I'm not exactly russian(look at my page). And the explanation about english wikipedia instead of american I must disagree(no disrespect). You see, Misplaced Pages was created in USA and originnaly was english only(the first time i went on wikipedia it was said wikipedia was created due to 9/11. ?!). Good luck with you're future work and имейте хорошее здоровье(I should stop writting in paretisees). Dosvidanie dorogoy drug. P.S. Pushkin's poems are actually easier to learn and memorize, unlike other ones. kniaz march 31, 2006 10:35 pm.

Misplaced Pages survey

Hi. I'm doing a survey of Misplaced Pages editors as part of a class research project. It's quick, anonymous, and the data will be made available to the Misplaced Pages community later this month. Would you like to take part? More info here. Thanks! Nonplus 01:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Hello Ezhiki, how are you? Thanks for your support in my RFA. The final vote count was (88/3/1), so I am now an administrator. I am very humbled by your comments and your vote of support. Please let me know if at any stage you require assistance, or if you have comments on how I am doing as an administrator. Once again thank you and with kind regards Gryffindor 18:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian Far East

I don't think it correct to give "Дальний Восток России" as the Russian equivalent of "Russian Far East" since the term is fairly rare in Russian. While in English the term "Far East" usually refers to the larger region, "Дальний Восток" is never used in Russian in that way - it always refers to the Russian Far East. Note that if you search in google in Russian, for "Дальний Восток" you get 6 million results, while "Дальний Восток России" gets you only 40,000. Qaramazov 17:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I made this correction is because this is the English-language Misplaced Pages, and, when speaking of that region in English, it is customary to specify that it is Russian Far East, as opposed to the Far East in general. In Russian, of course, that distinction is made differently (and that fact should be mentioned in the article), but we must use the name that's most familiar to Anglophones (see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)). Hope this explains my corrections. Please let me know if you have further questions.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 17:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

In reply to your message: I in no way question the use of the ENGLISH term "Russian Far East." Rather, I am saying that correct RUSSIAN translation for it is "Дальний Восток." I am not sure how "familiar to anglophones" criteria can be used here, since presumably anglophones are not going to be familiar with either of the Russian terms. It is my understanding (incorrect?) that the purpose of providing the Russian term is to inform the reader how the entity is actually called in Russian, not to translate back the English term. Note that the Russian name for "Joseph Stalin" is given in WP as "Иосиф Сталин" not as "Джозеф Сталин," even though the latter version would be more familiar to the anglophones.—This unsigned comment was added by Qaramazov (talk • contribs) .

I understand your concern, but your Joseph Stalin example cannot be used as an exact analogy. "Russian Far East" is the name under which the region is known to foreigners, and "Дальний Восток России", or "Российский Дальний Восток", is a translation of that term (one that is used in Russian texts targeting foreigners). "Дальний Восток"/"Far East" proper is the name of that same region used in Russia internally—a fact that the article must mention (perhaps in the intro line alongside with the longer version, or in the second paragraph). Putting "Дальний Восток" as an equivalent right after the term "Russian Far East" is just not right. I agree that both terms could be better placed within the article, but frivolously mixing two variants of the term is not the way to go. How about rewriting the intro this way:

Russian Far East or simply Far East (Template:Lang-ru, Dalny Vostok) as it is referred to in Russia, is a term that refers to the Russian part of the Far East, i.e., extreme south-east parts of Russia, located between Siberia and the Pacific Ocean.

This can still be improved, but it illustrates what I am trying to say fairly well. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This seems reasonable. Or:

Russian Far East (Template:Lang-ru, Dalny Vostok, literaly "The Far East," see #Terminology), is a term that refers to the Russian part of the Far East, i.e., extreme south-east parts of Russia, located between Siberia and the Pacific Ocean.

I.e., it might make sense to have a link to the Terminology section that explains that a different term is used in Russia to refer to the larger Far East. Qaramazov 18:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

That'll work, too, although I still like my version (with a Terminology section link included) slightly better. Well, that's just my preference; it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Would you prefer to write the Terminology section yourself? If not, I can take care of it today or tomorrow. By the way, as a side question, why are you interested in the RFE? You are not one of them Karamazoff Bike dudes, are you? :)—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Вырос там. Вот как раз сейчас во Владивосток билеты ищу. "Air routes connect Vladivostok with Seattle and Anchorage" (статья "Vladivostok"). Если бы! Туда сейчас только через Японию, Китай, Корею или Москву! Меньше чем за $1500 не добраться. Кстати, "Терминология" уже там, в конце статьи. Qaramazov 20:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Мда, про Сиэтл и Анкоридж это я писал. Данные десятилетней давности. Через Сеул, говорят, сейчас удобнее всего (из США во всяком случае), хотя лично я не знаю — я как из Владивостока уехал, так в него ещё ни разу не возвращался. Дороговато, полторы штуки-то! В общем, успехов.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 21:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Romanization of the Russian Language Mediation

Hi there, I've been assigned your mediation case. What we need to do now is firstly decide via what means we wish to conduct the case. We have three options: via Misplaced Pages, via e-mail or via and IRC channel. I would favour the wikipedia route but am happy to do any of the three. I look forward to hearing from you. --Wisden17 13:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Misplaced Pages messages as well, but would agree to email if necessary. I do not have access to IRC most of the time. Thank you for taking this case, Wisd.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 13:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As an uninvolved but interested observer, I'd strongly prefer it if you conducted this on Misplaced Pages so that I might watch and drop the occasional comment; it is, of course, your discretion. —Nightstallion (?) 20:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The mediation has been opened. I have left a few initial questions which I would be interested to hear answers to. The mediation will take place on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Romanization of the Russian language. --Wisden17 16:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I am already writing some comments.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 16:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Vorkuta

Great to know we understand each other. I too know the difference in usage of both the Nazi and the Soviet slogan. However, my main problem was that it's not the broadness of the usage that is important here, but rather the sarcasm/cruelty behind them. Any way, perhaps the matter could be expanded someway-somewhere. Any ideas? //Halibutt 15:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, you eyesight is so good that you even see things that don't exist and can't exist. If you think the the Soviet slogans were intended to be sacrastic in any way, it just shows you complete lack of understanding of the subject. Similar nonsense is that Soviets in their propaganda would draw any connection with the Nazis. The worst thing, though, is your calling others' edit vandalism. It may have been a while since you last time checked WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:VAND#What vandalism is not. Maybe you could spend 10 minutes on reading up. I am not even suggesting that you reread WP:NPOV because I don't think it could make any effect on you. --Irpen 23:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, folks, calm down, please! I don't think Halibutt meant that the Soviet slogan was intended to be sarcastic on purpose. Rather, it is us who perceive it as sarcastic now that we know that Vorkuta in those days was in effect one large forced labor camp. When looked at from this point of view, the analogy with the German slogan is very well seen (even though that effect was unintentional). However, mentioning that analogy in the caption of the image (which, remember, shows not the entrance to the forced labor camp but to the whole town) may lead to wrong conclusions.

Anyway, this is one of those topics which I do not really like to get involved with. I'd say take the analogy out because it is mostly misleading in its present form, or reword it (how, I don't know), but you folks obviously have more experience arguing such matters with each other, so I'll leave it up to you. Of course, please keep it civil and NPOV—I know that both of you are perfectly capable of that. Obviously we all have different backgrounds, and we all had been brainwashed a little differently; hopefully all those misunderstandigs can take back seat to our main goal, which is to build the greatest encyclopedia ever.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Baykalsk reference

I just found this "Radio Liberty on Irkutsk" reference. As you asked for a citation, do you think it's good? --Nikai 09:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it works fine. The only reason I requested citation was because that particular passage was the first edit by a new user, and I was too lazy at that moment to find the confirmation myself. I didn't really mean to offload that work onto someone else; it was rather intended as a reminder to myself to check that piece when I edit the article next time. Anyway, thanks for taking time to find the appropriate reference.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Uzbekistan

Hello Ezhiki. I am writing to you, cause you as a Russian Wikipedian can help. Do you think categories such as Cat:Uzbek society or Cat:Uzbek people should be renamed to "Uzbekistani"? Uzbeks are an ethnic groups, many people from Uzbekistan are not ethnic Uzbeks, so I think it is wrong to have for example ethnic Russian resident of Uzbekistan under "Uzbek people" category. What do you think? - Darwinek 13:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes perfect sense, and similar distinction is made in Russia as well ("русские" for nationality and "россияне" for the citizens of the nation). It is important to remember, however, that I am no expert in Uzbek affairs. Still, if there is a vote on that matter, please let me know—I'll support your point of view as quite logical.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 18:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Nominated on WP:CFD. You can vote or comment here. - Darwinek 18:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Country subdivisions, subnational entities etc.

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_April_4#Category:Subdivisions_by_country_to_Category:Political_divisions_by_country , IMO the rename should be taken with more care. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 06:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)