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Template:Mediation

Yugoslavia Template‑class

Template:Collaboration in Yugoslavia is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Misplaced Pages coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Renaming proposition

I am proposing to rename this template into Template:Second World War in Yugoslavia thus being possible to include all intervenients into the template, and to avoid the incovenient missinforming presentation that comes from the inclusion of resistance movements in it. Similarly, this solution was also found as adequate in the infobox at Yugoslav Front article. I´ll wait to see if there are no objections, otherwise I´ll list this template in the moves request. I will also find appropriate to hear other possible name proposals to this template. FkpCascais (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Chetniks and Mihailovic "situation"

I don´t want to take much time to everyone here, as I supose that all involved know well my position on this. I would like to propose a change in the situation the Chetniks and Draža Mihailović are found in this template, right next to the official Axis allies. The difference between them in enormous, and the template should reflect that. FkpCascais (talk) 20:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Mihailovic to be removed from the "Collaborators"

Are we in agreement that the facile label "collaborator" should not be used to describe Mihailovic? If nobody objects, I will remove Mihailovic. BoDu (talk) 09:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. -- Director (talk) 13:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, do you remember that you said we should not use the facile label "collaborator" to describe Mihailovic? BoDu (talk) 13:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Not in the article's lede, perhaps, but here certainly. The point is this person collaborated, and we shan't play word games to avoid listing him alongside other persons who collaborated as well. If its the "label" that bothers you, why didn't you change the heading rather than removing the person? Would "Notable collaborating individuals" suit you better?

Please stop edit-warring. The references in there are not just for show, the template is sourced. -- Director (talk) 13:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

This issue it too complex to place Mihailovic among "collaborating individuals". BoDu (talk) 14:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

...by your estimate, I take it? No, actually its not particularly complicated. This is not the place to transfer the old dispute, but here's one example . -- Director (talk) 14:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

When I said that "this issue it too complex", I was not talking about issue whether Mihailovic approved some arrangements with the Axis. I do not deny it happened. My point is that Mihailovic was engaged in resistance activity too, so to place him among "collaborating individuals" is misleading. BoDu (talk) 16:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Except it isn't misleading as Mihailovic is certainly among individuals who collaborated. The degree to which each individual collaborated is explained in their respective articles. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 08:39, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Mihailovic is among individuals who engaged in resistance activity and collaborated. It is misleading. BoDu (talk) 08:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all stop reverting. You managed to sneak this edit in and prior to that edited your post in such a way so that if you did not receive a response that it would somehow assume consensus. Both this template and this template exist. So enough of this nonsense. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 08:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Mihailovic was placed among collaborators without consensus. Anyway, in my opinion, both this template and this template should be delated. The best solution is creation of new article such as Template:Greece during World War II. This new article would include section called "Controversial cases" where Mihailovic will be placed . BoDu (talk) 09:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Do tell me why you removed Mihailovic from this template and this template from Mihailovic's article, but left the resistance template untouched leaving his name and the template in Mihailovic's article.

Your proposal is absurd and unnecessary. The current templates work perfectly well as long as they are used together and not one without the other as you have done. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 09:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It is irrelavant why I left the resistance template untouched leaving his name. It is absurd to have 2 templates. BoDu (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It is absolutely relevant when you are the one that's creating the "deception". You removed the collaborationism template and left the resistance template. That is incredibly hypocritical of you and that is what's misleading. It's ridiculous for you to come here and claim that this template is misleading.

Your proposal creates more problems than it solves. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 09:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You have no proof what is the reason why I left the resistance template. It's absolutely ridiculous to place Mihailovic among people such as Ante Pavelić, Milan Nedić, Dimitrije Ljotić etc. My proposal is the best solution because it creates an template which shows that Mihailovic was a controversial case. BoDu (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Your actions show your intent and reveal how you treat one template, which you despise, differently from one which you like. Mihailovic did indeed collaborate. It was not on par with Pavelic and others, but no one is even arguing that. It's not a "controversial case" as you claim - the sources are clear on this. He did both (to various degrees) and these templates depict that. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 11:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You comment is just an allegation. No proof. Mihailovic engaged in resistance activity and collaboration, so he is undoubtedly an controversial case. You want to have Mihailovic on the same list as Pavelic, Nedic, Ljotic etc, and that is against common sense. BoDu (talk) 12:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Your "common sense" perhaps, but its not up to you, is it? The sources listed in the article support the position. The sources you copy-pasted from here (and never read a single word of) do not support the proposition that Mihailovic was a "resistance commander" in anything more than name.

You removed Miahilovic as a person involved in collaboration, and you introduced a nonsense copy-pasted template listing him as a "resistance commander". All without consensus - and now you're edit-warring to keep your nationalist POV in. That is not how we work on these articles. You have no sources, you've not contributed in any way with new information - you're just POV-pushing.

I've changed the entry from "collaborators" to "persons", as is standard on a number of similar templates, and I've moved Mihailovic to the back of the list. Do you find that more acceptable? -- Director (talk) 12:50, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you remember you said that Mihailovic was a leader of resistance movement that collaborated with the Axis? You are lying that I introduced the template listing him as a "resistance commander" (it was done by User:FkpCascais). I find unacceptable that Mihailovic is listed on the Yugoslav Axis collaborationism template. BoDu (talk) 13:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Then there is no room for compromise at all. I find it "unacceptable" that you removed his entry without consensus. The difference between our two positions is that yours is based on your personal opinion (nationalist sentiment), and mine is based on those damn sources cited in the template. Are you aware that this is an online encyclopedia and not an outlet for your creativity?

BoDu, rest assured will add that edit-warring never ever works, and you will not have your way through force. Your POV removal of sourced information is against policy, and the sources will be restored. -- Director (talk) 13:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You have not answered my question: do you remember you said that Mihailovic was a leader of resistance movement that collaborated with the Axis? BoDu (talk) 14:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You answered none of my questions either. You are not "in charge" of this discussion, simply because you have the amazing ability to click the undo button over and over again.

Yes I do remember that. So why did you remove his entry from the category of people connected with Axis collaboration? I am not inconsistent, BoDu and you will not somehow turn my own words against me. -- Director (talk) 21:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

As Mihailovic engaged both in the resistance and the collaboration, it's misleading to put him among the collaborating persons. BoDu (talk) 15:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Nope. If he engaged in both, he should be placed in both - with a note in each that he engaged in the other. -- Director (talk) 17:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's excessive to have 2 templates. Mihailovic should be placed in new template, created to be like Template:Greece during World War II. BoDu (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, FkpCascais should not have created his copy. -- Director (talk) 11:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The template about Axis collaborationism in Yugoslavia should not have been created too. I repeat, my proposal is to create new template like Template:Greece during World War II. BoDu (talk) 12:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Have you noticed we already have one? -- Director (talk) 12:31, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

We can alter the Template:Yugoslav Front to look more like Template:Greece during World War II. BoDu (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Do what you like. Just be sure I will from now on revert everything you do on Misplaced Pages if its not done explicitly by consensus.

Incidentally, where is the "consensus" for your edits?

-- Director (talk) 17:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

If I added a material without consensus and you think it should not have been added, then remove it (we will try to build consensus after that). BoDu (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

We may "discuss", but I cannot promise I will agree very often. And its not about "adding material without consensus", its about editing without consensus. That is to say, both the "adding or removing of material without consensus". And you're removing material without consensus that's been in the article, sourced and all(!), since it was created. How do you justify your non-consensus edit? -- Director (talk) 17:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I explained on my talk page why that editing is in accordance with the WP:BRD. BoDu (talk) 18:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

By your nonsense convoluted "interpretation" of WP:BRD, its ok to revert virtually anything. All of Misplaced Pages content was added at one point or another, and the vast majority without an explicit consensus in support. WP:BRD applies to when you're reverted relatively immediately, not years afterwards. Very few people would have the gall to suggest something so ridiculous as WP:BRD giving one the license to remove virtually anything they like. Still less people would suggest it grants them leave to WP:EDIT-WAR. You're just a POV-pusher on an agenda, looking for excuses.

Also:

• You're ignoring my question with regard to WP:EDIT WAR
• You're ignoring the fact that there is a WP:CONSENSUS currently against you - three users have reverted your Serbian nationalist vandalism.

-- Director (talk) 18:18, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Look I don't care anymore, I'm not going to revert your vandalism again - have it your way. Ignore sources and consensus, push your preconceptions by force, show your colours. I have a high fever and I'm sick to my stomach, I'm withdrawing. -- Director (talk) 18:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I answered on my talk page. BoDu (talk) 18:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

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