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Transportation

Is there any particular reason why Transportation is a subheading of Economy? It seems like Transportation should be a heading of its own. - Thatdog 3 July 2005 02:53 (UTC)

UH Collegian took care of this. Thanks! - Thatdog 20:34, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Disagree.
Is there any particular reason the largest employers in town are missing? Hello! American Airlines; Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. At least a link, heh?

209.78.197.4 02:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)20:23 11/14/2006, Tue

I have added American Airlines to this list. 24.68.249.197 10:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Tandy Center Subway

There's no doubt that the Tandy Center Subway is an interesting piece of Fort Worth trivia, but should something that ceased to exist almost three years ago be called an attraction? Perhaps the article needs a new section for trivia/fun facts/etc. for this and other neat tidbits. - Thatdog 20:34, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. I've been trying to think what other trivial facts could be included. maltmomma 20:38, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Here's some: Four of the subway cars are preserved in storage by North Texas Historic Transportation, Inc. (www.NorthtexasTransport.org) A fifth car still operates in Dallas on the McKinney Avenue Transportation Authority (www.mata.org). The only remaining streamlined car is currently undergoing restoration for static display at the Leonards Museum at 200 N. Carroll Street in Fort Worth.

City seal & flag

If someone can find an image of the seal of Fort Worth, please upload it or put it on this talk page. I want to make a city infobox for Fort Worth and I need a seal to complete the infobox. Thanks! – UH Collegian 05:42, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You know, I've lived in Fort Worth most of my life and don't remember seeing a city seal. I did a quick search and couldn't come up with anything. There is a new city flag, do you have that? Here's the link - http://www.fortworthgov.org/cmo/pio/citypage/2004/cp2004706.asp#3 I'll email the city and see if they have a seal. Surely they do. maltmomma 19:29, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Got a quick response. Emailed the city and here's what they said: "Yes, our City Secretary uses it on all official documents, but because it is official, it is not available for purchase. You can come to the City Secretary's office to see what it looks like if you like or they might be able to send you a photocopy although I am not sure that is legal. You may want to check with them at 817/392-6150." I'm sure a picture of it is somewhere. All the other cities have theirs available. Hmmm, I can try calling them later. Gotta run now though. maltmomma 19:43, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Fascinating! I always assumed that Miss Molly was the only "seal" Fort Worth had since I've never seen anything else on civic forms. I hope they let you get a copy because I can't wait to see what it looks like! - Thatdog 19:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm still trying to get a picture. I've had a couple of road blocks but hopefully I'll be able to get one. maltmomma 20:36, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Finally came across the seal. Is there a spot for it on the main page? Maltmomma 00:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The flag as portrayed in the sidebar is incorrect. It is a logo that is in declining use among several municipal services (most noticably the police force, but new cruisers do not use the logo). The official flag is located at the City's Web site, but the site has no copyright disclaimer. Can we consider this fair use because it's material released by a local government? Caknuck 05:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, all flags are fair use and would be marked with {{Symbol}} for the licensing. Thatdog 06:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and put up the new one. Thatdog 06:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks great! Thanks. Caknuck 06:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that flag was discontinued two years ago. From the June 9, 2004, Star-Telegram: "Tuesday, the council approved a new official city flag design. The new flag will be white with the image of Molly -- the longhorn depicted on the front of Fort Worth's Livestock Exchange Building -- and will include "Fort Worth" in dark blue letters. The city's old flags -- which were multicolored, striped and featured a stylized drawing of a black steer head -- will be retired by sundown July 3." Does anyone know where to find a good graphic of the flag? All I can find is this: http://www.fortworthgov.org/cmo/pio/citypage/images/FWLogoFlag.jpg Thanks, Dmp348 03:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I was able to verify the flag was officially changed at both the Fort Worth government page, as well as the page for the previous flag's designer. I reverted the flag image back to the previous logo image, as that is more accurate, at least until a good hi-res version of the new flag is uploaded. Caknuck 01:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I've implemented Template:Infobox City-NoFlag as a temporary solution. It can easily be switched over to Template:Infobox City once the seal is available. Thanks, Thatdog 06:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Local Politics

I have been thinking that it might useful to add a government section in this as well as other articles. Such information might include: the type of charter the city has, key positions within the city government mayor etc. Some of this information might deserve its own article over time. Any thoughts or ideas? --Robert Harrison 20:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The section is coming soon. It's a bit surprising that this is being replied to nearly two years later. --Stallions2010 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

70.255.228.98 00:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)==Funkytown==

Fort Worth is commonly referred to as "Funkytown" by Texas residents. I mentioned this, and the edit was reverted. Why?--147.124.49.89 14:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I've lived here in Fort Worth 38 years and I've never heard it called that nor have I heard of it called that outside of the city. Maltmomma 16:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I had never heard of this either, but I just punched fort worth funkytown into Google and apparently its true! Bizzare. Thatdog 17:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

One of the first results is FWWeekly. You can't tell me you guys have never picked up one of those. --147.124.49.89 18:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Crudely extrapolating from google: "Fort Worth" funkytown = 9,820 hits; "New York City" = 65,000; Seattle = 24,000; Chicago = 41,000; "Los Angeles" = 39,000; Atlanta = 20,000; "New Orleans" = 64,000; Austin = 29,000; "El Paso" = 12,000 hits. El_C 02:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I have lived in Fort Worth my entire life and I have known exactly one other person who calls Fort Worth "Funkytown". He told me at the time that I worked with him that the term was popularized in the local/regional rap and hip-hop scene. I do not know if that assertion is true. As to if it should be included in this article, I shall remain silent. --Robert Harrison 04:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe put this information under trivia since it's not a widely known nickname plus the fact that other cities use the same nickname and it is more widely known in those places; i.e. above referenced numbers. There are 124,000 hits on Google for Cowtown Fort Worth and it is more widely known. Maltmomma 13:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard it called Funkytown. Just because the Fort Worth Weekly calls it that in its MUSIC SECTION of all things doesn't make it true. I'm going to change it. Also, I don't know about you guys, but aside from a few walks through Sundance Square, who actually goes clubbing in Fort Worth? If Fort Worth is Funkytown, what does that make Dallas & Deep Ellum? Kade 19:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I have a feeling many of you are older Texans/Fort Worth citizens. "Funkytown" is a nickname of Fort Worth. Do a google for "funkytown fort worth". It's right there. --66.190.72.175 00:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there any information to verify this statement? "In more recent years, east Fort Worth has been referred to as "Funkytown" as well, mainly by urbanites. In the last two decades of the 20th century, when the Blood and Crip gangs started migrating from California, east Fort Worth was often referred to as "Murder Worth" or "Little Chicago", as hundreds of bodies started showing up with insufficient amounts of evidence required to bring those responsible to justice, thus increasing the murder rate. East Fort Worth has since then changed, as the size and skill of the police force has rapidly increased." I worked on the city contracted ambulance at the time and I don't remember there being 100's of murders nor the names it was called. I do however remember when the gangs started moving in to the area. Maltmomma 21:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I lived in the East Side for most of my life. I've heard of it being called "Little Chicago", but it is also known as "Stop Six", "Polywood" and etc. I'm not sure about Crips being in that area because they were mostly on the southside, but I know most of my neighbors were Bloods. It's been called Funkytown on a regular basis if you all would listen to the radio where it is more popular with the younger generation. The best information to verify is first hand experience. You should take a trip down Rosedale and find out for yourself.

First hand experience is not enough,WP:VERIFY we need a reliable source that documents that fw is widely known as funky-town. Hip-hop stations do indeed use the moniker funkytown, as far as I can tell it is only the hip-hop stations though. I have a feeling that any city/town that starts with an F has been refered to as "funkytown." Maybe the section should mention something about hip-hop culture (anyway I like F-dub better :D) Diletante 17:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This whole section seems somewhat awkward, esp. "as hundreds of bodies started showing up with insufficient amounts of evidence required to bring those responsible to justice, thus increasing the murder rate." "Hundreds of bodies" seems particularly unlikely as in 2005 the number of reported murders was only 52 and the highest count in the past 6 years was 67 in 1999. (http://www.fortworthpd.com/crimestats.htm) And would the murder rate have been lower had those responsible been brought to justice? Bignona 11:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Uniform Crime Reports and Index of Crime in Fort Wort in the State of Texas enforced by Fort Worth Pol from 1985 to 2005

1995 460,321 108 332 1,965 2,939 5,344 1990 447,619 130 432 2,801 4,463 7,826 1985 424,449 128 483 2,620 3,121 6,352 1980 382,679 107 338 2,286 1,963 4,694 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.47.2 (talk) 05:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have lived in Fort Worth since 1956. I was told by my uncle that the name Funky Town was given to the city of Fort Worth by people who visited, moved or traveled through the city in it's early existence. Fort Worth had two packinghouses Swift and Armour along with Resin Chemical Company operation that processed and slaughtered cows.The companies were located on the cities north side of Interstate 35W presently known as "Old Downtown Fort Worth, the stockyard area. The processing operation was the major contributor of the funky smell that caused vistors to ask "What's that funky smell?" The packinghouses closed in the late 1960's and the smell has ceased to exist. userslmonfay

Lets kick this article up a notch.

This article looks like every other city-related article I've seen, pretty much bland except for statistics and tourist attractions. Could we possibly write a sub-section about the Bass family? I could go check out one of the books about them from the Fort Worth Central Library this week and reference it. I mean, they own the entirety of Sundance Square, as well as most of the skyscrapers, I don't think you can mention Fort Worth without the Bass's. Kade 19:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd recommend doing separate articles instead; there's already a Sid Bass article (with link to a nonexistent Perry Bass one), and I could see doing a "Bass family" article since there's apparently not *one* centralized Bass company. (Along the same lines... I'm off to start a Sid W. Richardson article -- I'm surprised there's not one already!) -Hedgey42 03:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

One important attraction missing is the annual Mayfest event. It's essentially a fund-raising festival for non-profit organizations that runs for four days in early May. Why is this significant? Not only is it an economic bonus for the city, but the 1995 Mayfest storm is considered to be one of the worst (if not the worst) storms in North Texas history. This storm may be important enough to justify its own article; it produced large hail that sent 90 Mayfest attendees to the hospital; from there the storm cells went on to spawn tornadoes and create flash floods that killed 13 people in and around Dallas. Some relevant web links include the Mayfest Website, a university paper on the event, a storm chase report with photos and WFAA's Wild Weather Week for 2005. -Eccl.7.12 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Lead paragraphs

I rewrote the lead paragraphs entirely (now has three paragraphs with more information), formatted the article, and added a new infobox with the official logo of Fort Worth. I think we should transform some of the lists in this article into proses. Currently, there are too many lists and few proses. Just a suggestion. RJN 20:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! I agree, it needs some sprucing up. Maltmomma 00:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

No panther?

The famed "sleeping panther" story needs to figure in here somewhere – "Panther City" is still occasionally used as a nickname for Fort Worth (even by some businesses), and there are a couple of different statues in the city linked to it. – Hedgey42 05:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Paschal High school in Fort Worth that I attended has their mascot as the panther. As well as having a panther statue. You can find out in their library.Bigjohntexan (talk) 10:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I have added some history on panther use as a city mascot. We need better sources such as the Dallas Herald Archives. Paschal is but one of many high schools that use the panther mascot among which include central, western hills, fossil ridge. Perhaps a note in the panther city section would be in order shawnmyers (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

History

This article needs to be improved in the history section. Just take a look at the history section of Dallas. There are even two articles entitled History of Dallas, Texas and Historical events of Dallas, Texas. We should improve the Fort Worth history section, including antebellum Fort Worth, the effect of the Civil War, historical population growth in the city, segregation (examples of that in Fort Worth), and so on. If we improve even one section we will eventually amount up to the Dallas article on Misplaced Pages. --Stallions2010 22:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Much of this section and the article on Fort Worth history are copied verbatim from the Texas Handbook Online HowiePoodle 01:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)HowiePoodle

Mayors

I've started the article List of mayors of Fort Worth, Texas, but it is incomplete, as I have few Fort Worth reference materials at my disposal. If you can fill in any of the gaps, please go for it. Dmp348 04:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Naval Air Station/Joint Reserve Base

Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth, formerly known as Carswell Air Force Base, a major military installation adjacent to northeast Fort Worth, and a major contributor to the local economy.

First, the base is in west Fort Worth (could be considered northwest I suppose but certainly not northeast).

Also, would you say it's adjacent to Fort Worth or in Fort Worth?

Very new at this so please excuse me if this is the wrong place for this discussion or such...Thanks.

Aggiebud 17:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Metropolitan area

According to the Southern United States article, Fort Worth is the second-largest city of the largest metropolitan area in the South. This is important (it could also fit under trivia) and should be incorporated into the article. --Stallions2010 22:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Fort Worth

I have proposed a WikiProject for Fort Worth. Please show your support by going here and adding your name to the list of interested Wikipedians. To improve the quality of this and other Fort Worth-related articles, I believe it necessary now for this project to exist. Dallas, Texas, although not yet a featured article, is of signficantly higher quality than Fort Worth's article is. Thanks! Stallions2010 01:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Southeast, NOT southwest

I'm not saying Fort Worth is within the Southeastern United States region, but it is located in the southeastern part of the country (personally I don't see it as being part of the Southwest though, it's part of the South). Lebanon, Kansas marks the geographic center of the continental United States. Fort Worth is located south of Lebanon, as well as east of it. Look at the coordinates of the two cities. I am reverting the southwest reference now that proof has been provided. --Stallions2010 21:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

We are not talking solely about geographic regions, rather accepted cultural names for regions. If "the west" only starts west of Lebanon,KS then we need a new name for the Midwest. The stock show is the "Southwestern Exposition Livestock Show and Rodeo". The city slogan is "where the west begins." I think it is pretty safe to say that Fort Worth is in the South-Western united states. This is especially so if we want to talk about population density of the US, or cultural influences. -- Diletante 18:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

>>Once again though, as noted on the Texas page, the term "Southwest" when referring to Texas denotes something quite different in history, culture, traditions, etc, than in states like New Mexico and Arizona which are also labeled "Southwest." As the term applies to areas west of Ft. Worth within the Lone Star State (with the trans-pecos being an exception), the term Southwest is pretty much synonymous, in the above mentioned criteria, with "Western South" (this is the label used in Raymond Gastil's classic work "Cultural Regions of the United States").

>>Also, as mention on the larger "Texas" talk page, this is almost certainly how the early settlers would have thought of it, as the city's moniker "Where The West Begins" was never intended to mean anything like "The South Stops here." Anymore than St. Louis "Gateway to the West" meant one was leaving the Midwest. LOL Point is, the "West" was not thought of as a single coherent cultural region per se (and it still isn't today), but simply a largely unsettled half of the country different in many ways from the "East."

>>In fact, most of those early cattle barons were former Confederate soldiers, and what the nickname really was intended to impart was that Ft. Worth was a Boom Town entryway to a new part of the larger South itself, one of new opportunities and all...the "Western South" if you will (to use that term again!) as distinguished from the "Old South" of cotton plantation country. Again, most of those early Ft. Worth newcomers, the overwhelming majority of whom were migrants from the southeast looking to get a new start, brought with them their basic culture and folkways and, being in a former sister Confederate States, never thought of themselves as being out of the South per se. In fact, some records, and ads and such in early newspapers will often have references to something like "The Dixie Cattle Company" or whatever! LOL -- TexasReb 20:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Bigjohntexan (talk) 10:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)==Funkytown and Gangs in East Fort Worth.== Only young (under 30) people call Fort Worth Funkytown and only because they want it to be like other cities known for their music (and not just hip hop). If you've every hung around Austin, you know why it's call Funkytown. If this page is truly about history and not part of Fort Worth Weekly's "vote for the best", someone change the page to mention the real historic nicknate, Panther City. And "Murder Worth", "Little Chicago" - goes along with the person saying there were 100s of bodies when the entire city murder count wasn't 100. And what's this about gang population elevating in the mid 80s and disappearing in the 90s in EAST Fort Worth. Maybe citywide there was a gang population increase but not JUST in EAST Fort Worth (which includes more than Stop Six and Poly). Someone change the history page to facts - delete all the nonsense obviously written by a wannabe gangster pining over their childhood.WendyVann 18:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I am in my mid thirties and am a Fort Worth Native. A white guy and not a gangster wannabe. All my life I have heard Fort Worth known as Funkytown. Not just Panther City. The name came from the meat packing plants for the smell and was later revived as a nickname in the 70's from the bars and clubs on Hemphill. The Panther City nickname came from the panther population that was there in the begining of the city on the Trinity river bluffs. Not from the sleeping panther story. And the gangs are in more than in the east side. They are on all sides. The east, south, west, north, and there are even asian gangs in the ne in Haltom City which is part of Fort Worth. And if there wasnt a gang problem there then why would the Fort Worth police have a official gang task force? I grew up in south central also known as the medical district and my family has deep roots there so I have heard it all from my family. And the matter of Stop Six and Polywood(not poly) and Berry Hill in the south having gangs is a fact. Just because someone doesnt want something mentioned doesnt mean it wont be history. Just as with Hells half acre that will go in the history books. Obviously the suburbanites need to get out a little more and go to more than downtown and the stockyards. Stop through Stop Six and try some real cooking at some of the small resturaunts there. I have and it is well worth it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigjohntexan (talk • contribs) 10:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Major face-lift

This article needs a huge makeover. Our primary goal, as of now, is to get the article to good article status. I have created a to-do list at the top of the talk page. Some items on the list may seem alarming, such as removing the "Districts" section and transferring valuable information to a new subsection (see to-do list for details). Please do not delete any items on the to-do list; rather, after completing the task, strike through the completed item. You may add to the list as you please, but please make sure your new items are reasonable. See Misplaced Pages:To-do list for guidelines and more details. For ideas and/or helpful information, you may refer to these Misplaced Pages articles about American cities:

• Ann Arbor, Michigan
• Boston, Massachusetts
• Cleveland, Ohio
• Dallas, Texas
• Detroit, Michigan
• Erie, Pennsylvania
• Houston, Texas
• Louisville, Kentucky
• Marshall, Texas
• Minneapolis, Minnesota
• New York City
• Providence, Rhode Island
• San Fransisco, California
• San Jose, California
• Seattle, Washington
• Tulsa, Oklahoma

Remember: GOOD ARTICLE. To see what criteria must be met to achieve good article status, see Misplaced Pages:What is a good article?. We all need to contribute to make this article one of Misplaced Pages's best. Thanks! --Stallions2010 23:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Downtown Fort Worth

Shouldn't it be split into a new article? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Skyline picture

Would anybody like to post some of their favorite skyline pictures of Fort Worth? We can choose which look the best and post it. --Jayson (talk) 02:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Economy

Moved to talk because it is just a list of arbitrary companies that happen to have offices in Fort Worth, doesn't have citations, and a bunch are redlinks so not notable. Let's replace this with a decent article on the economy of Forth Wrth instead of an uninformative laundry list. RJFJR (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

{{Refimprove|section|date=July 2009}} {{Cleanup-list|section|date=October 2009}}

American Airlines and AMR Corporation are headquartered in Fort Worth. American finished moving into its $150 million (1983 dollars), 550,000 square feet (51,000 m) facility in Fort Worth on January 17, 1983; $147 million in Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport bonds financed the headquarters. The airline began leasing the facility from the airport, which owns the facility.

The Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce has complete info on area employers, including companies headquartered in Fort Worth:

• Acme Brick
• Airforce Airguns
• Alcon -US Headquarters
• American IronHorse
• Autocomp
• Bass Enterprises
• Bell/Agusta Aerospace Company
• Bell Helicopter Textron
• Ben E. Keith
• Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp.
• Buxton
• Cash America International
• Consolidated Robotics
• Cook Children's Health Care System
• Coria Laboratories, Ltd.
• Cawley, Gillespie & Assoc.
• Dickies
• Dunlaps
• D.R. Horton
• Enduro Resource Partners
• Enterhost
• First Command Financial Planning, Inc.
• Freese and Nichols
• Galderma Laboratories -US Headquarters
• Gearhart
• GM Financial
• Justin Brands
• Lockheed Martin Aeronautics
• M&M Manufacturing
• O.B. Macaroni
• Panhandle Slim
• RadioShack
• Rahr and Sons Brewing Company
• REAL School Gardens
• Revomatica
• RPM
• PDX-Rx.com
• Pier 1 Imports
• ScrewAttack Entertainment LLC
• Sabre Holdings
• TPG Capital, L.P.
• TTI, Inc.
• Whitley-Penn Associates
• XTO Energy

Population estimates

The lead says that Fort Worth's population is project to grow to 1.2m by 2030, but then 4.3m by 2050?!? You can't grow by 3.1m, nearly quadrupling your population, in 20 years. I know it already says citation needed, but can that be removed just by common sense? --Alexseattle (talk) 08:15, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

It took 40 years to double the tri-city area's population at a much lower rate of growth, so it's a high estimate but certainly possible. Psychokinetic (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Under Culture - Texas Ballet Theater

Fort Worth is also home to Texas Ballet Theater. Employing 38 professional dancers and operating two ballet academies serving 300 students, Texas Ballet Theater remains a vital component in the vibrant Texas arts community. As the largest, critically acclaimed, fully professional, resident classical ballet company of North Texas, the Ballet serves more than 100,000 individuals from the diverse communities across North Texas. Originally incorporated in 1961 as Fort Worth Ballet, the civic ballet troupe transitioned to full-time professional status in 1984. By the end of the 1990's, the newly renamed Fort Worth Dallas Ballet had made a name for itself on the national and international stage. To ensure continued artistic excellence, the Ballet’s Board hired preeminent artistic director and choreographer Ben Stevenson, O.B.E., in 2003. Additionally, leadership in Dallas and Fort Worth joined together in an historic partnership to provide the only arts organization in the Metroplex for two cities, Texas Ballet Theater. The goal was to give both cities a world-class company of the caliber unachievable by either city standing alone. Texas Ballet Theater's $7.3 million budget ranks it the second-largest professional ballet company in Texas, behind the $20 million Houston Ballet, and among the top seventeen largest American companies in the nation, according to Dance USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.163.77 (talk) 04:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Professional Sports Teams

Is it just me, or is there no data in the Professional Sports Teams section? I do not know how to fix the table, nor do I know what should be in it. Psychokinetic (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Aliens invaded Fort Worth?

"In January 1849 aliens invaded fort worth and made evrybody retarted to the confluence of the West Fork and Clear Fork of the Trinity River." I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I highly doubt this is true... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.175.90 (talk) 20:19, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

these sort of uncyclopedia sentenses are more common on wiki than what one would think. I even was on an article about Ban Ki Moon. I believe I read his parents are poofters and that he is an awful awful man. --82.134.28.194 (talk) 09:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Demographics

I recently found under dempgraphics it said a percentage of the population were "Black or African-American" I thought this was a little too inappropriate for wikipedia's standards, so I changed it too "Dark-skinned or African-American. Hope I helped an was on no inconvinience. Thanks, 124.177.189.177 (talk) 10:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

altitude?

Fort Worth is listed for being 653 feet, which is 7 feet short of a full furlong, yet it is listed as 216 metres. Either one of these is incorrect. --83.108.28.194 (talk) 18:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The request to rename this article to Fort Worth, Texas has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Fort Worth → Fort Worth, Texas – Per WP:USPLACE, the only US cities that do not need the state name in the article title are cities listed in the AP Stylebook. Fort Worth is not one of these cities and therefore should have the state name in the article title. Dough4872 00:46, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The guidelines on WP:USPLACE has historically been heavily debated, regarding which cities get the state modifier, and which do not. The last time it was heavily discussed was an RFC archived here. The so-called "AP Stylebook" rule is the current compromise. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support per the guideline. Imzadi 1979 → 05:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose the guideline recommends articles be disambiguated, but it doesn't mandate it. Fort Worth isn't ambiguous, so it's not needed. I would also note that HJ seemed to leave some wiggle room in the aforementioned RFC close about establishing additional cities not on the AP list. Fort Worth seems to fit that bill. Hot Stop 15:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• But this breaks the precedent we follow for every other city in the United States. Cities are commonly referred to as "City, State" in mailing addresses and the media. If we leave this page where it is, we mind as well move Hatboro, Pennsylvania to Hatboro since that is also unambiguous. Dough4872 15:31, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Honestly, no one's going to do that. Ft. Worth has a population of 1.2 million. The town you linked to has a population of 7,000. Hot Stop 15:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• I still think the AP stylebook guideline is a fair guideline to follow. Otherwise, there will be the constant moving of pages for unambigous places, leading to inconsistent titles for articles. Dough4872 15:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• As a side note, the article for Austin, Texas, which has a large population as well, is at that title and not Austin even though it is the primary topic. Dough4872 15:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Austin could refer to Stephen F. Austin. And to your first point, there isn't enough of a driving force to move articles for smaller cities (like the one you gave before) that we would devolve into thunderdome as your suggesting. Hot Stop 15:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Looking at {{USLargestCities}}, it appears that many of the cities have the state name in the title excluding the cities listed in the AP Stylebook. Jacksonville, Florida has the state name in the title even though it is the primary meaning of Jacksonville, same for Louisville, Kentucky, Sacramento, California, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Omaha, Nebraska. Dough4872 15:50, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support -- no benefit to the reader to ignore the rules here. Barring such a benefit, follow the guidelines. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:18, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Why should U.S. towns be done differently than those of other countries? There are problematic names like "Springfield" or "Madison", but this isn't one of them. The AP guidelines were created to explain names for newspaper readers. If you search or click for the name of a certain town, you must already be familiar with that name. The title should be the name of the subject, not its mailing address or a description of where it is located. Kauffner (talk) 02:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Do you advocate all U.S. places that are unambiguous have the state name dropped? If so, this will lead to a huge inconsistency in article titles. It is consistent to have all U.S. places not in the AP stylebook to have the state name as that is how they are often referred to by non-locals. Dough4872 04:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Re to Kauffner: because each country has (or can have) its own titling style. See Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names): "In some cases, including most towns in the United States, it is conventional to add such a tag even when it is not strictly needed for disambiguation purposes." Australia and Bermuda (among others) follow this too. This is the wrong venue to change those guidelines.-- JHunterJ (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

  Again, the guideline recommends they follow the convention. There's some leeway there. Hot Stop 18:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

  And again, there's no benefit to not following the convention here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with following established policy and guidelines when there is no reason not to. It is trivially easy to follow them here, with no disadvantage to anyone anywhere. Many readers outside the US are not confident about the meaning of "Fort Worth", or even about the category to which the referent may belong. So there is a positive advantage in the proposed new title. Noetica 22:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure plenty of users have no idea where Chokhawang is either, yet we don't disambiguate that. Hot Stop 23:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think that every place name needs to be disambiguated, regardless of what country it is in. This will help the reader better indicate where a place is. Major cities whose locations are widely known may be excepted. Dough4872 23:12, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. Hot Stop 23:17, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

When we title our articles we strive to make them recognizable to our readers from the titles, but recognizable to those who are familiar with the topic, not to those who are not familiar with the topic. Striving to make all articles recognizable from title alone to everyone would open an incredibly large and smelly can of fish. See WP:CRITERIA. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

A bankrupt idea that very obviously lacks consensus. It is well to note here that an ArbCom case has just concluded, precipitated by Born2cycle's insistence on that line. Every effort to establish a genuine, fresh community consultation to test the issue was sabotaged, in favour of the same old voices offering the same old hermetically sealed arguments. There is no reason to believe that the present recognisability provision enjoys wide consensus: just narrow consensus from a small coterie of enthusiasts who hold to an algorithmic approach ignoring the information needs of real people. In its final decision ArbCom warned Born2cycle, with these words:

Born2cycle is warned that his contributions to discussion must reflect a better receptiveness to compromise and a higher tolerance for the views of other editors.

There are indeed other voices, and they should be heard. They could not be heard while the agenda and rules were set by the present vociferous occupants of WT:TITLE. We can only hope that conditions will now become more favourable for new titling principles to serve readers, rather than serving the abstract imperatives that drive computer scientists – I mean, those lacking a sense of how an encyclopedia needs to communicate with its readers, wherever they may be and whatever their informational priming may be.

Noetica 05:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

REMINDER: The idea here that Noetica is calling "bankrupt" is reflected in naming policy (under recognizability), and he and others who disagree with it have been warned by Elen of the Roads that they'll be blocked if they try to remove it from policy again. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

No. I was not named; and I had left the page weeks before Elen's very welcome but temporary measure to stop shifts in the contested wording – because of threats and actual wikilitigation from Born2cycle, who here gives a distorted account. I was the one who called for Elen of the Roads to monitor things, since she already had dealt with Born2cycle in earlier troubles at that policy page (and also with the sockpuppeteer Pmanderson, a major ally of Born2cycle at WP:TITLE and now totally banned for a year, and MOS- and TITLE-banned indefinitely). Anyway, this is not the place for discussion of this sort. Let Born2cycle start one of his customary ad hoc pages, to have his say. Myself, I have no more to add; but I might still correct misleading statements where they occur. Noetica 22:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Pmanderson was a big supporter of this "AP Stylebook" city list nonsense. See here. Kauffner (talk) 01:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Towards the end of the recent ArbCom action, there was a flurry of editing activity, maybe in anticipation of a possible prohibition on rapid cycling of policy pages. When the music stopped, Born2cycle's opaque "recognizability" wording had been left in, although I never saw any discussion of it. Now it seems tailor-made for defending these impossibly long titles. Neotarf (talk) 10:10, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You never saw any discussion of it? In addition to countless MB of discussion and less formal polling, there was this poll which clearly favored the wording unanimously, and when the page was unlocked for editing, Elen announced the wording (which you call "Born2cycle's opaque "recognizability" wording") could be restored, and anyone who reverted it would be considered to be edit warring: "The minor change in wording that has been discussed to death can be made, and I will regard a reversion as edit warring.". --Born2cycle (talk) 17:31, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, that. Yes I saw that. A word count of 88,954 words, but no one could answer Elen of the Roads' question about why a title needed to be "recognizable". And of course the sock of the banned user was all over the place too, making up bogus polls and cutting off any attempts to discuss the subject more deeply--the exact opposite of what consensus is supposed to do. The whole thing left a very bad impression on me. But what can I say? As a n00b, I'm still trying to get my head around WP:IAR. Neotarf (talk) 21:10, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It's possible that there are other editors who agree that "recognizability of a title to readers who are not already familiar with the topic is not a goal, and should not be used as an argument in favor of a title", as I put it in my attempt at a poll to see. But I didn't find anyone agreeing to that. This would be a good time for them to speak up if so. Dicklyon (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

After I saw that disastrous poll from the banned sock, I ran into WP:poll which is short, and worth reading in its entirety. It makes the points that polls can 1) miss important points or objections by limiting solutions to a fixed number of arbitrary choices 2) be divisive and cause people to merely choose camps 3) cause people to expect that a majority vote will automatically win an argument, instead of fostering consensus. But yeah, it seems to me that even Born2cycle backs away from making titles more "recognizable" when he has the chance to add Stuff to them. That tells me he's using some other criteria for naming. Maybe that's the place to start -- what principles are actually important. Neotarf (talk) 22:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You seem rather confused about who's who. No banned sock did any poll, and B2C has never hesitated to make titles less recognizable; he never adds "Stuff" to them, but removes stuff to make them more concise. Dicklyon (talk) 23:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Dicklyon for recognizing and acknowledging the consistency in my position of favoring the principles of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and concision over adding unnecessary precision to article titles (principle: if an article is the unique or primary use of its most commonly used concise name, that name should be the title of the article). I agree Neotarf seems confused, though to be fair we are talking about a situation so confusing even Arbcom struggled with it (and I still think they never got it straight). --Born2cycle (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. The title is fine where it is. There is only one Fort Worth, and this can and should be clearly proclaimed by having the article's title be its undisambiguated name. Adding the state to the title obscures this fact and is adding unnecessary precision to the title. Back when this convention was adopted by a handful of editors and a bot, years ago, adding unnecessary precision was more common, not only for cities in other countries, but many other kinds of articles too. Since then, disambiguate only when necessary has become more prevalent in WP naming, practically dominant. City names in Canada and Australia, for example, are no longer unnecessarily disambiguated (for the most part). Even names of royalty are now much more apt to follow common usage than strict adherence to WP naming patterns. There is no good reason to keep the city, state convention for U.S. cities in general, nor for this article in particular. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:44, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Do you think smaller towns with unique names should be left undisambiguated? Dough4872 02:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes. I don't see why titles of articles about smaller towns in the U.S. with unique names should be treated any differently from titles of any other articles about relatively obscure topics with unique names. Hatboro, Pennsylvania contains unnecessary precision; it should be at Hatboro. The topic of that article is primary for Hatboro. This same argument is used to name the majority of the articles in WP; there is no reason it should not be used for these articles too. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• In answer to Born2cycle: See my remarks above, but note also that WP:USPLACE is an established and consensual guideline. It serves the needs of readers across the world – especially those outside the US. Let us respect that consensus. If anyone contests it, let it be challenged at the relevant talkpage. Otherwise, let it be implemented. Indeed, let it be implemented for French Quarter also, which is glaringly non-compliant with WP:USPLACE. Same for very many similar titles. Fitting with the parsimonious principle for recognisability that Born2cycle mechanically and doggedly appeals to, they systematically mislead readers. We need to think again, starting from the world as it actually is.

Noetica 05:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:USPLACE has never had true consensus support - it has been contentious (varying degree from quiet period to highly contentious) throughout its history. While there has never been consensus support to overturn it, there has also been only a slight majority of those participating in favor of keeping it. This is what happens when a convention contradicts normal naming practices on WP. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

"Never had true consensus support"? Well, let it be contested at the relevant talkpage. Meanwhile, it is there to be applied. Just like WP:TITLE, in its present parlous state which by no means represents "normal naming practices on WP". Those are yet to be stabilised though wide consultation. Noetica 22:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who doesn't know about Mardi Gras, Easy Rider, or the French Quarter has to be living under a rock. No, "French Quarter" should should not be changed for the six people in the known universe who don't know where it is; it is in the same class as "Woodstock". Fort Worth is not. Neotarf (talk) 08:29, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

But Hamamatsu, Doolin and Whyalla are no "French Quarter"s or "Woodstock"s either; they're not even Fort Worths. But there they are. Is that a problem? How well known a given topic is has never been a criterion to consider in deciding whether to add more precision to the title. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:31, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Whyalla, Australia? No province name? But of course it's not recognizable to someone who does not have a map of the place tattooed on their left kneecap, or whatever, unless you tack some more information onto the title. Neotarf (talk) 21:53, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, and yet myriads of countless places with unique names like that, in Australia, Canada, Ireland, England and all over the world, have just the name, undisambiguated, as the title of the articles about them. We do not add precision to those titles increase their recognizability. Why should we treat US cities with unique names, like Fort Worth, any differently? --Born2cycle (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. The purpose of a title is to tell the reader the name of the subject, what it is called in the real world. I concur with Born2cycle that adding anything else to the title subtracts information since this practice obscures what the actual name is. Cities of the United States, The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, and Britannica give the name of this city as simply "Fort Worth". Our article title is "Fort Worth". No one has suggested that the name is anything else. That should be the end of the story. Kauffner (talk) 01:14, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Based on this, do you suggest Hatboro, Pennsylvania gets renamed to Hatboro since its a unique place name? Dough4872 02:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• This is a major city with entries in Britannica and other established reference works. There is no excuse to be making stuff up here. Someone else can worry about Hatboro. Kauffner (talk) 07:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes Kauffner, the city has an article in Britannica. The article is indexed and retrieved under the name "Fort Worth (Texas, United States)". Find that entry here; and see the first item found in a Google search on Britannica "Fort Worth". Britannica meets its obligations to its international readership admirably, by supplying such helpful information for the reader (and Google) to work with. Does Misplaced Pages? If not, why not? The Misplaced Pages equivalent of the Britannica indexing system is the list compromising all Misplaced Pages's article titles. Kauffner, should we or should we not emulate Britannica? Noetica 10:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

These software issues take us pretty far afield from the subject at hand. On Britannica, the parentheticals are a navigation aid. The title of their article is simply "Fort Worth." Something similar has been proposed for Wiki: A "reduced size" feature that would allow a parenthetical to be put in smaller type. We could then add an explanatory remark to the end of each title. The smaller type would make it immediately obvious that these remarks are not part of the name. I certainly have no objection. I do not find Britannica`s parentheticals to be useful myself, although I am sure there are readers who benefit. In any case, such a technical fix may help resolve these endless disambiguation/primary topic disputes. Kauffner (talk) 11:37, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Those are not "software issues", Kauffner. They are how information is presented to users, prospective or actual. You say that the title of the Britannica article is simply "Fort Worth"? That is not certain. The simple unadorned phrase occurs as a header above the article, yes. But that's more like the start of a Misplaced Pages lead section; it is not closely analogous to any feature at Misplaced Pages. On Google and in the Britannica index, the title appears as "Fort Worth (Texas, United States)". Helpfully, and doing no harm. See also the results of an internal search at Britannica on "Fort Worth": the first entry is "Fort Worth (Texas, United States)". Helpfully, again. Noetica 22:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

At the bottom of article, they give the citation form: ' "Fort Worth." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2012. ' So the short form is the official title of the article. Several years ago, there was only the short form. The parentheticals were added as part of a software upgrade. Kauffner (talk) 23:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Noetica, the page you have linked to is a disambiguation page. To distinguish it from "similar" entries like "Fort Worth Zoological Park" and "Dallas-Forth Worth International Airport", or more probably, as a form of internal advertising, since the other entries aren't at all similar. If you click through to the Fort Worth article itself, you find the title is an unadorned "Fort Worth". Neotarf (talk) 12:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support – the current WP:USPLACE guideline seems reasonable here in supporting recognizability and precision, especially for a name that could also be a fort or a ship, when we want the topic to be recognized as the city. As for Kauffner's argument, it seems clear that the city is widely known as "Fort Worth, Texas", in addition to "Fort Worth"; see the postcard in the article. Dicklyon (talk) 02:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support per guidelines. Tony (talk) 07:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. There are enough American towns named "Fort" that were originally established as actual forts that I doubt if many people have trouble identifying "Fort Worth" as a town. As an American who has probably driven through the town at one time or another, and may or may not recognize it if I were to drive through it again, I appreciate being reminded of what state it is in (and as the article reminds, that it is better known for being part of the Dallas/Fort Worth metropolitan area). But quick, where is Fort Leavenworth? Fort Knox? Every schoolchild has heard of these (American schoolchildren, that is) but who can say what states they are in? For those who already know that Fort Worth is in Texas and google for it that way, there is a redirect. For everyone else, the state should be in the title. Neotarf (talk) 08:08, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• I forgot the population stats for Fort Leavenworth. Let's put them in the title too. The highway exit number might be useful as well. Kauffner (talk) 08:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Ha, ha, but no, I don't favor long titles, they slow down the search process because the eye can't take them in quickly. This one I think is short enough to parse with a glance and not as annoying as the others. It's a tradeoff, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to our neighbors in Oz who say they are still trying to figure out where things are. The fact that there is so much comment on this RM and not on, say, "and yet it moves", is that this is a somewhat borderline situation. There is something wrong with all the choices, and the task is to choose the one that is the least objectionable. In the end, whatever is gained by moving it probably isn't worth the effort it takes to accomplish the move. Neotarf (talk) 08:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Hmm, you never read any complaints about Canada on these pages, do you? -- I mean, that their naming conventions are too Canadiocentric, or anything. Here WP:Canadian_wikipedians'_notice_board/List_of_settlements_at_plain_title is how they handle disambiguation of city names. Now it seems to me that Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, or Improvement District No. 349, Alberta, or West Nipissing, Ontario, would be just as unfamiliar to the rest of the world as Fort Worth, yet no one seems to mind that the name of the province is not in the title. I'm beginning to see why Kauffner objects to WP:USPLACE. Maybe it's time to talk about whether title naming conventions should be consistent across the project. Neotarf (talk) 12:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

1. "Corporate Structure." American Airlines. Retrieved on May 18, 2009.
2. "American Airlines Finishes Moving into Headquarters Monday." Associated Press at Ocala Star-Banner. January 16, 1983. 6A. Google News 4 of 62. Retrieved on August 27, 2009.

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