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Associated Acts

Due to the recent addition of Wings and the Quarrymen, I thought we might need to discuss this once again. According to the Wiki template

"The following uses of this field should be avoided:
Association of groups with members' solo careers
Groups with only one member in common"

Both would seem to apply to POB and Wings, though perhaps not the Quarrymen. Any thoughts? — GabeMc (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Ringo Starr and George Harrison are both listed as being former members of the Plastic Ono Band. The inclusion of the Plastic Ono Band is therefore worthy. Wings had one member of the Beatles in it. Wings should not be added under that logic.

108.46.110.232 (talk) 04:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, good points, especially on Wings. And while it's true that Ringo and George played on one POB album each, were they really members? Was King Curtis a member of POB (It's so Hard)? Phil Spector (Love)? Billy Preston (God)? Also, who are the Flux Fiddlers from the "Imagine" album, then, are they also an associated act? — GabeMc (talk) 21:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Pete Best

The passage, "The band had already been contemplating Best's dismissal, so he was replaced by Ringo Starr" This is 100% incorrect. There is no attribute to this passage. The band had not been contemplating removing Pete Best at all. From the first recording session at Abbey Rd, which Best was at on 6 June 1962, to Best's dismissal it was over 2.5 months. 94.194.102.190 (talk) 09:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It is sourced to Spitz. Do you have a source to back up your claim? Cresix (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete

Non-notable beat combo that everyone's long forgotten. SmokeyTheCat 05:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Huh?? What's your point? Ah, April Fools. Joke's on me. Hardy-har-har-har. Cresix (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it true...

...that they visited Otis Redding's funeral? According to a Jet publication, The Beatles "were slated to leave London to attend the funeral". But did they visited it or not? I would say no, but let's see what others say. Regards.--GoP_{TN 13:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)}

In my opinion this is a moot point. Such trivial details don't belong in the article. Cresix (talk) 00:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the article is massive as it is, and not in need of trivial details such as this. — GabeMc (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

FYI, it is already included at Otis Redding#Death. GoingBatty (talk) 01:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you please answer my question?--GoP_TN 08:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - don't know whether they actually attended the funeral or not. GoingBatty (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Include or not?

• The Beatles were such Stax fans that they even sent a limousine near an English airport to pick up the Stax crew (its first European tour)?
• The Beatles once visited a gig with performers including Steve Cropper and Carla Thomas. When they saw the performance, all four bowed.

This could be added into the Influence section.--GoP_{TN 10:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}

Again, maybe this is important on the Stax article, but IMO not significant enough to mention on the Beatles article. GoingBatty (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• The Beatles were extremely popular in the Soviet Union, but yet the Soviet Union is not even mentioned... Without the Beatles there would be no Russian rock (Kino, Aquarium, DDT, etc.)--GoP_{TN 10:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}
• The Influence section is overall too small. I am pretty sure there is more to say then just two small sections...--GoP_{TN 10:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}

Hi.

http://www.quoteland.com/topic/Beatles-The-Quotes/369/

Artemy Troitsky : <The Beatles, Paul, John, George and Ringo have done more for the fall of Communism than any other western institution>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1028603.stm

Milos Forman : <It sounds ridiculous but it's not. I'm convinced the Beatles are partly responsible for the fall of Communism>

Canadian-based academic Dr Yury Pelyoshonok, who grew up in the USSR in the 1960s, backs up his claim.

<The Beatles had this tremendous impact on Soviet kids. The Soviet authorities thought of The Beatles as a secret Cold War weapon>

<The kids lost their interest in all Soviet unshakeable dogmas and ideals, and stopped thinking of an English-speaking person as an enemy>

<That's when the Communists lost two generations of young people. That was an incredible impact> --Roujan (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that the "Influence section is overall too small". It might need some adjustments, but not lengthening. Unless someone wants to create a separate "Influences" article and link it here, but if you do please first compose it in a sandbox in your user space and let everyone take a look and comment. Cresix (talk) 23:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• To clarify, the Influences section of the Beatles' article deals with musicians who influenced the Beatles, not the Beatles' influence on other people, so I think you mean the Legacy section, though in that case, I still agree in principle with Cresix, unless a well-sourced and succinct graph could be prepared and discussed before addition, I reccomend a new article that can deal with this issue in more depth, versus elongating an already especially large article. — GabeMc (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe include in The Beatles' influence on popular culture? GoingBatty (talk) 02:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Deceptive edit summary

I'm not sure if this is a cause for concern, but Rockerdude101 changed the genre in the info box and marked the edit as minor putting in the edit summary, "puncuation error". It has since been reverted, but it looks like they were being intentionally deceptive. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Definitely deceptive. I gave him a warning. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 22:48, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, deserved a warning. I reverted Rockerdude's edit and that is precisely how I interpreted his edit summary. --RacerX Talk to me 23:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Check this out. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 07:54, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly appears to be a sock. Here is User:Manda96's only edit to date, which ultimately resulted in this rather embarrassing looking exchange. --RacerX Talk to me 23:24, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

London photo

removed image
Per request by User:GabeMc, who removed a photo with rationale, unexplained addition of image which resulted in sandwiched text, please take to talk. If the question is why the image was added, it's because it's one of the few semi-candid pre-invasion photos of the group, and the only such photo in the article. But if the question is how to un-sandwich text, the answer is to move the image or text.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

First, its a fair use issue, as I believe the image you added is likely copyrighted. Since I find it hard to believe this image is Public Domain, having appeared on the cover of an album. Also, there are currently three images of the band from late-63'-mid-64'. Further, the BBC image crowds the article, so I would rather swap images then add more photos to this section. I'm open to suggestions as always. As far as unsandwiching the text, I don't see how it could be done while retaining the images relevance to the surrounding text. — GabeMc (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with GabeMc. In fact, other editors may be interested in an investigation of Wikiwatcher1 (talk · contribs) at WP:Contributor copyright investigations/Wikiwatcher1. Cresix (talk) 00:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Past/Current Members

How can a dissolved band even have current members, let alone two people who are no longer living? Its most accurate to say that the Beatles had six members total in their lifespan, but since they are no longer an active band, there are no current members. — GabeMc (talk) 22:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I see no section labelled current members. Just as you see none of the countless threads wasted on this topic. Hot Stop 22:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

1) While the section does not say "current" it says "members" and "past members" implying "members" is current. 2) Past discussions matter little, consensus can change. — GabeMc (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, while the section is not called "Current Members" the field is, which clearly implies the field is to be used for Current Members, in this case, two of which are "currently" dead. — GabeMc (talk) 23:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Further, according to Norman 2008, pp. 622–24., Lennon announced he was leaving the band on 20 September 1969, and McCartney quit on 10 April 1970,(Lewisohn 1992, p. 349.) so not only do we have two dead people in the "Members" section of the infobox, we also have an ex-band member who quit, and never rejoined. — GabeMc (talk) 00:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• From Wiki template

current_members

This field is only relevant for active groups. Current members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names.

past_members

This field is only relevant for groups. Past members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names. If a group is inactive, all members should be listed here, and none in the "current_members" field. If membership of the group has varied over time, it should not be noted here, but may be discussed in the article body. — GabeMc (talk) 00:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Correction. The public infobox says "Members." NOT "Current Members." This has been hashed over again and again and again. There was a discussion on the Infobox musical artists talk page at in which it was decided upon that The Beatles were the exception to the rule as they were when they were making music all those years ago. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Clarification ~ 1) The field is called "current members", and the other infobox section is called "Past Members", which implies "Members" is not past, but current. Steelbeard1, are you claiming that there are only two past members of the Beatles? Was Lennon a member of the Beatles when he died? 2) While I appreciate your links to prior discussions, they tend to be several years old, like the one above, which is five years old, and therefore virtually irrelevant today, consensus can, and does change, it is never written in stone. — GabeMc (talk) 02:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Straw Poll

The purpose of this poll is to gage current consensus as to the members sections of the Beatles infobox. I suggest we list all six ex-Beatles as "Past Members", and leave the "Current Members" field empty, as the band was dissolved in 1975, and has since not reformed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support ~ The "members" section as it now stands includes two dead people, and two people who are no longer in a band called the Beatles. The "members" section should be blank, with all six previous members in the "Past Members" section. — GabeMc (talk) 23:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• This one's a tough call. Obviously there are no "members" of The Beatles anymore, but putting all six together seems to put Sutcliffe and Best on an even par with the four well-known members. Normally this would be a no-brainer "support" for me, but The Beatles may be an anomaly. How about changing "members" (Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, Starr) to "lineup", while leaving Sutcliffe and Best as "past members"? Joefromrandb (talk) 00:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Joe, the first graph of the lede handles this issue fine, so why not just follow current Wiki guidlines? — GabeMc (talk) 00:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not a fansite and no exception should be made." — GabeMc (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

While I appreciate all good music, including The Beatles, I wouldn't call myself a "fan". And even if I were their biggest fan, I would never advocate editing the article from a fan's point of view. My opinion that an exception may be ideal in this case is again, based on my belief that the case of The Beatles is an anomaly. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons that were determined when the current infobox arrangement was decided in a previous consensus. I agree that The Beatles are an anomaly in this regard. Essentially, my reason for wanting to leave it like it is, is that The Beatles as Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, and Starr were (and continue to be, even with half of them dead) one of the most pervasive influences, not only on music, but on culture in general. Sutcliffe and Best simply don't fit into that framework the way the other four do. Rather than this proposal, I would actually prefer to leave out a listing of membership altogether in any form in the infobox (but leave the photo caption); but my preference is to leave it like it is. For more details, see the several discussions of this issue in the archives. Cresix (talk) 01:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Good points Cresix, but I would say as far as Sutcliffe and Best, the lede and the article body make their roles very clear IMO. More importantly, how is it that Lennon could be a member of a band he quit over a decade before he died? By all accounts there were six individuals in the Beatles between 1960-1970, and none after they broke up, initially in 1970, and legally in 1975, when the partnership was dissolved by a High Court. — GabeMc (talk) 01:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for using "member" as defined by the infobox's parameters, or by what the High Court states is legal. If we rigidly had to follow those parameters, we wouldn't even be having this discussion; it would be an inflexible decision that would require no discussion. That is why we must have a consensus to make an exception to those parameters. My point pertains to perception. The world generally perceives The Beatles as Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, and Starr. I don't have hard statistics to prove this, but I feel quite confident that if you ask the general public who the members of The Beatles are, the response would overwhelming be those four. That may not fit into Misplaced Pages's way of doing things, but it is a reality. I'm saying we need an exception to the way Misplaced Pages usually does things. Cresix (talk) 01:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I see your point on perception, and the need for discussion to determine consensus, and I agree 100%. I also agree with the assumption of the band's most famous line-up. My point here is, the lede and article do nothing but support this, so why do we need to bend Wiki guidelines at all? Is the infobox really gonna have people thinking Sutcliffe wrote "Yesterday", or Best "Octopus's Garden"? The "most famous" line-up is made perfectly clear in the first graph of the lede, isn't it? Then the second graph explains Best and Sutcliff's roles. As it stands now it implies the band is active, and I think those who want to bend guidelines have the burden of making a convincing arguement as to why. — GabeMc (talk) 02:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The infobox is powerful. I think many, if not most, people first look at the infobox before reading anything in the article. I don't want any misleading first impressions. And I think placing Sutcliffe and Best on an equal standing with the other four makes a glaringly inaccurate first impression. If I were new to Misplaced Pages and wanted to find out more about The Beatles, if I first glanced over at the infobox and saw six Beatles listed as if all six were a part of the most famous lineup, I probably would dismiss the article as inaccurate and not bother to read it. The Beatles many times were the exception to the rule, and they continue to be. I don't think it diminishes the article, or other band articles, or Misplaced Pages in general to make an exception here. Cresix (talk) 02:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose As stated in previous discussions, the lineup of The Beatles from their first record release in 1962 to the formal breakup in 1970 had always been consistent: John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr. They were popularly nicknamed The Fab Four. Before the group became famous, there were two earlier members when they were local stars in Liverpool and Hamburg--Stuart Sutcliffe who left the group in 1961 (and died in 1962) and Pete Best who was sacked in 1962 in favour of Ringo Starr before the Abbey Road recording sessions for their first Parlophone single. The infobox states the "members" as John, Paul, George and Ringo and the "past members" as Stu and Pete so the group could never be mistakenly called The Fab Six. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Steelbeard1, I'm not debating their most famous line-up, this debate is about whether an article about a dissolved band with two deceased ex-members should list that "most famous" line-up as its members, in the "current members" field. Look at it this way, if you were the member of a club or organization that closed, do you remain a member, or are you a past member after dissolution? Also, FTR, the first recording session at EMI, on 4 September 1962 included Best, not Starr. — GabeMc (talk) 02:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

GabeMc is wrong regarding Pete Best at Abbey Road. The Best session was on 6 June 1962 and was a demo session only. "Love Me Do" from that session would eventually be issued on the double CD The Beatles Anthology 1 in 1995. After the session, Best was sacked by the band. George Martin was not happy with Best's drumming so he arranged a session drummer for the actual recording session. This was done on 11 September 1962 with Andy White on drums and Starr on tambourine. A few days earlier, the song was recorded with Ringo on drums on 4 September. Ringo's version was the debut Parlophone release on 45-R4949. George Martin substituted the White version for the Please Please Me album and that was the version released in the US in 1964. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Steelbeard1, you're right, I did get the date wrong above, a brain fart, its 6 June not 4 September, I should have double checked, but my point was that the first session included Best, that's all, which it did. Also, Best wasn't sacked until mid-August, nine weeks after the session. — GabeMc (talk) 02:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Which was, again, a DEMO session with tracks recorded not intended for release. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

According to Lewisohn, "From EMI paperwork recovered in 1991 it is clear that this session ... was not only an audition but also a proper recording date, the Beatles first, under their 4 June contract to the company." According to Lewisohn, they performed "a large selection of material" and "four recordings were made".(1992, p=70) But you're right, they were not used commercially, so one might call them demos. — GabeMc (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support ~ A check of pages of other bands in the same situation - defunct, a classic lineup, a few less famous minor members - shows that they are all handled in the way proposed: all members listed as "Past Members". I dig the Beatles as much as the next man but Misplaced Pages is not a fansite and no exception should be made. -- Metalello (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support ~ I feel consistency and precedent and good guides here so that we should list all as past and consistenly continue with the precedent Metalello points out. -- Tearaway (talk) 03:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose there is no section called current members, people just infer that on their own. More importantly, there is no compelling argument for switching this, and doing so would just confuse readers (you know, those people we aim to serve). Hot Stop 04:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, there is no section called current members, but the fields are called "current members" and "past members", which obviously implies current to the former, and since there are only two sections, "members" and "past members", if you are not part of one group, you are clearly part of the other. Lennon was not a Beatle when he died, he was a former Beatle, therefore a past member, they are not a ghost and this is an encyclopedia, not a meta-physical fansite. As far as confusing readers, I am not spending hours writing/editing for an audience that can't even read the first five sentences of the article. — GabeMc (talk) 04:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Again, the average reader only sees "members" and "past members". The fields could be "dogshit eaters" and "fuckers", but they'd still see that. I don't know why you're wasting so much time (both yours and everyone else's) for such a minute detail. Hot Stop

Gabe has put in much volunteer work here, improving many articles, and I see nothing "time-wasting" about a good-faith proposal. While I don't completely agree with Gabe here, I have no doubt that his only aim is to improve the article. Joefromrandb (talk) 04:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Joe, @Hot Stop, please explain how one can be a member of something that does not exist, i.e. the band is defunct. You're not explaining why a defunct band should have four members listed, two of which are dead. — GabeMc (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support - The Beatles aren't special, they are just another 60's pop band and don't merit special treatment. Treat them like any other. --Matt Westwood 05:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose The Beatles were NOT just another 1960s pop group, they had more more impact on the decade both musically and culturally than any other band-and I'm speaking as a die-hard Rolling Stones fan. I think the infobox looks good as it stands. John, Paul, George and Ringo were the members that comprised the group when it achieved international fame and imprinted itself on the collective psyche of an entire generation. Best and Sutcliffe were not part of that era.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

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