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Revision as of 00:10, 14 December 2002

Hi RK, I don't want to clutter up or involute the religious pluralism talk page more, so let me just reply to your most recent comments with a couple of quick points: You ask, "SR, You write "What I mean is this: to me, this account of Judaism makes Judaism (at least according to some people at one time) non-pluralistic." In what way do you mean this? Judaism in many eras didn't grant other religions the same respect that it gave itself (and I think often for good reason)." I guess this goes to my point that we need to distinguish between a variety of pluralisms. To me, the strongest pluralism is entirely relativist (there is no absolute truth, all truth-claims are relative). I think this is different from people who claim "my system is better than yours, but yours still has some validity (especially when if converges with what I think!). And I think this second position is different from those like the one I was responding to, like "only Judaism was true." This seems to me to be inherently non-pluralist, but I will now admit that one could perhaps come up with a kind of pluralism that will make room for this statement and competing statments like "only Christianity was true" or "only Islam was true." I think it would take more work than the first kind of pluralism! Again, I am asking you to do more work, but I wish you could explore these three (or are there more?) kinds of pluralism, both abstractly, and as they may or may not be found in different varieties of Judaism.

One other point I want to make -- I am no Wittgenstein expert, but I do not think he backed down from his position. But I do think a lot of people misinterpreted his position, thinking that the word "game" necessarily means it is trivial. The Roman gladiators played games in which they died, and today people make and lose fortunes over games. I think Wittgenstein meant something else by "game," I think he meant it in the sense that there were rules that determined what constituted an intelligible (let alone effective) action. Thus, the rules for football and soccer are different -- in soccer you just cannot hold the ball and run with it, if you did you would be penalized and some people would think you were just nuts. But I think LW understood that different language games could have very very serious consequences.

I do think you and I agree on a lot of things; I hope you take most of my comments not as criticisms (I don't think you do) but as suggestions about things you could clarify or expand on in the article. Perhaps you think some of the things you have written in response to me on the talk page is evident in the article itself. A main point of my comments is that I think some points are in the article, but could be made more explictly or developed. Anyway, good job! SR

RK, how is your knowledge of the Great Revolt? Have you seen the page, Fall of Jerusalem? I have serious problems and do not even know where to begin (although nixing the "AD" would be a start); I was wondering whether you have looked at this and what you think, Slrubenstein

I haven't looked here at my Talk page for a while, so I just found your comment! I'll take a look at it and see if there is anything that I can meaningfully contribute. RK

This is a prophecy about the future fates of two ethinic groups, but not about the individual fates of specific people. The Jewish tradition holds that the fate of individual Arabs and Jews is not predestined in any way. I wonder if you are using the word "predestinaion" in a way that other English speakers do not use it? It seems to me that you are using this word as a general description of any form of visions of the future. However, I have only seen this word used to describe it when God is said to predetermine an individuals' fate before they are born, which is a different concept. RK

I hope that all of these rhetorical questions aren't irritating. I'm struggling to understand. These are decisions concerning divine intentions toward people not yet born, which are then carried through. It appears to me that prophecy also involves predestination: not necessarily in the sense of a future after death, but surely in the sense of Israel's status and the promise that the blessing of God for the other families of the earth is destined to come through Israel.

None of these fascinating questions are bothersome in the slightest! RK

It's in order to make room for ideas such as this, that I think that the article on predestination needs to be made more inclusive and not focus, to the exclusion of comparable ideas, on a small segment of the Protestant Reformation. I do not think that it is factual to imply that only the Calvinists have an idea of a God capable of infallibly declaring the future lot of anyone: particularly since the Calvinists derive this notion from the Jewish Scriptures. To escape that erroneous idea, I think that the entry would be improved by including Judaism in the fuller explanation of what is meant by predestination: either as the very thing, or at the very least a comparable idea -- mkmcconn 9/17/2002, Tuesday 10:44 AM

Hey, RK. Please take a look at the following: Yeshivish, Yeshiva, Kollel, Shabbos, Rabbenu, Yinglish, etc. Also note that a new article, Yidden, is in store for us too. I am really at a loss here. Danny

RK, I really feel uncomfortable banning someone from the project, although of course I sympathize with you here. On the one hand, I do not think that some of EW's new articles are any worse (silly or mistake-ridden) than many other Misplaced Pages articles, meaning over time others can improve them. On the other hand, the revert war going on on some of his articles is just ridiculous. By the way, I haven't checked out Gemarah yet, although I just assume you are correct. I would like to know what Danny thinks. But here is what I suggest: first, freeze one or two of those pages that are constantly being reverted, and give people some time to figure out what to do. Second, ask a couple of sysop people to review the history and talk pages of some of the egregious cases. I am on your side, but think it would be more effective to build a more general consensus. As you know, I have been involved in some revert wars myself (most recently in the Jesus article) -- that was resolved without any permanent blocking. That is probably not going to happen in this case, I know. No matter how right you may be, my point is just that Misplaced Pages is by its nature prone to such stuff and the community and the process has ways -- over time -- of handling it without blocking, and if we are going to block someone it has to be because a few other people have come to reach this conclusion. Slrubenstein

Hi RK, I looked at Holocaust Theology briefly -- this week is very busy for me -- and it looks good. Personally I'd like to see more detail on people like Rubinstein and Fackenheim. I may try to contribute although my knowledge of these areas is way way out of date. I remmeber a French theologian writing something about silence, I do not know if I am able to retreive his name.

I do think there is a larger issue: to what extent people see the Holocaust as unique or not. My sense is that a lot of Jewish "Holocaust" theology does not claim the Shoah is unique, and in fact do not call for a specifically (or unique) "Holocaust" theology, but rather use the Holocaust to recover earlier Jewish responses to suffering, such as Kabbalah, the notion of Tikun Olam, and Zionism -- all these things existed prior to the Holocaust but were able to claim greater significance after. I do not know, I hope I am not babbling, I gotta run but will go over the page more carefully later. Good work, though! Slrubenstein PS can you work on the COnservative section of "segments of Judaism" -- I really don't like it, and your comments on the now archived talk page seem much better, Slrubenstein

RK, please take it easy, dude. This is not a murder trial.

Also, I would appreciate you did not remove comments you made after others have answered them. It makes other people's replies to you seem out context and is, as far as I am concerned, a demonstration of lack of integrity.

I appreciate your contributions to wikipedia, and I encourage you to be respectful of others, and stand behind your words.

Oh, and another thing. When there is a paragraph break in my comments, it's because I meant for a paragraph break to be in my comments ;) Christopher Mahan

I left you a query on the Messiah talk page, about the source/date/copyright status of what you added. Mostly, it needs cross-refs outside Misplaced Pages sorted out, and spelling and abbreviations identified and modernized. Thanks. Vicki Rosenzweig

RK: Please take care with Lir. It's taken a lot of us a lot of time to make her see that we appreciate and value her reasonable contributions. I'd prefer you think a little before striking out at her. Think of it this way: Would you slug a 12 year old with a baseball bat because he kicked another kid in the leg? No, of course not. Same principle. An eye for an eye; less, yes, but not more. Christopher Mahan

You wrote the following in talk:Israel:

You are merely inserting a biased anti-Israeli polemic into an article which has nothing at all to do with that particular topic. This is inappropriate behaviour in the Misplaced Pages community.

Where do you get off lecturing others about "inappropriate behavior"? Do you know how many complaints I've gotten about you? If you think a POV is not neutral -- or worse, is simply incorrect -- you don't need to launch a demeaning diatribe. Just slip in one of the standard POV markers, such as Many Palestinians believe that or According to an official statement by Mr. X of the Arab League (or Mr. F of the PA) I hate to take you task, but I really must insist that you stop driving away newcomers with your abrasive comments. --Ed Poor

Lir is accussing the Jews in Israel of being mass-murdering racists She is filling this encyclopedia with anti-Semitic hatespeech...and you defend this?! I take great offense at your behaviour. You have crossed the line on this issue. For shame. RK

See my rejoinder a few paragraphs below... --Ed Poor 15:19 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)

RK, although she may have couched her words improperly, Lir merely pointed out that the Israeli government's policy toward the residents of the territories conquered in 1967 was considered by some around the world as genocidal in spirit if not in practice. I personally think this is not correct, yet this is a widely held opinion by millions of people and so deserves to be aired. She pointed out that she is Jewish by ancestry (at least) and that should be enough for you to consider that she hersel or members of her family may have lost loved ones or suffered a great deal during the second world war.

Besides, many IDF soldiers are openly criticising the israeli military's practices in the occupied territories, and many newspaper articles and television newscasts are reporting on this, so she does have a solid basis for saying what she is saying. Christopher Mahan

You are talking about criticism. Lir is talking about branding all of Israel's jews as mass-murderers out to exterminate the Arabs in the same way that the Nazis murdered the Jews. Just as I am not offended by your analysis, I am offended by hers. You are pointing out criticisms; that is not anti-Semitic. Lir is merely venting rage at Jews. In other words, it seems to me that you are not describing Lir's beliefs or actions. You are describing what you wish she had written. RK

Hey, RK. Like you, I don't think Lir is Jewish, nor do I think she is a little girl, or a woman for that matter. I do think it is someone who is trying to see how far they can push the buttons of the people working here. Like you, I reject the remark that was inserted, though I am willing to have Ed's compromise--in fact, I stopped removing the remark once that compromise was inserted, even though I still contend while such a comment, while possibly valid, is certainly in the wrong place on the page. Still, I am very hesistant about condemning people as anti-Semitic, even though I have seen the occasional example of that here too. In this particular instance, I think the correct phrasing would be "misinformed," particularly with regard to what genocide really means. It's a term that's bandied about far too often, diminishing from the potency of what real genocide is, whether it is committed against Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Bosnians, or Hutus. Nor do I think this is intentionally an act of evil. Just today in New York's Holocaust Museum, I I heard the attack on the Twin Towers described as "genocide." I thought then that the remark was ill-informed, and I think Lir's use of it now is too. Personally, I think it is more the result of the hyperbole and sensationalism of the popular press. I would therefore argue that using the term here is inappropriate since we should rise above those standards at Misplaced Pages. I certainly think a valid argument can be made for Israel's policies being racist (a valid argument is not one you necessarily agree with, but one based on facts rather than hype). I certainly think that should be brought up in the article. The question is, as I said above, more one of how and where. Other than that, please be careful of using the term anti-Semitism. Wen used to loosely it loses it effectiveness in real instances of anti-Semitic rhetoric. Danny

accusing the Jews in Israel of being mass-murdering racists She is filling this encyclopedia with anti-Semitic hatespeech...and you defend this?! I take great offense at your behaviour. You have crossed the line on this issue.

As I tried to explain elsewhere, there is a big problem with the term genocide. Two major changes, which many people (including me) object to are:

1. excluding politically motivated mass-murder, e.g., if Mao kills 20 million Chinese it's not "genocide" any more; ditto for Stalin's Ukranians & Pol Pot's Cambodians;
2. including non-lethal meanings, like forced re-settlement

The suffix -cide is supposed to mean killing, specifically, murder -- but partisans like to change words around for partisan advantage. I think Lir is innocently using the changed meaning of genocide and will continue to think so until proven wrong (benefit of the doubt).

Also, let's not confuse "opposition to Israel's military or political policies" with anti-Semitism, okay? I bristle at the thought that you might be branding me as "anti-Semitic". --Ed Poor

RK, you wrote this unfriendly message on Mirsa's talk page, and I think it looks better here than there.

Mirsa, the Israel, Palestinian and Middle-east entries are complex issues that needs to be discussed in a calm and neutral point of view (NPOV) fashion. Instead, you currently are inserting an anti-Israeli polemic into an entry. This is inappropriate behaviour in the Misplaced Pages community. You need to read up more on the entries on NPOV, and you absolutely must read the already extant articles on this issue: You appear unaware that your claims and related isues are already are discussed in great detail, both in Misplaced Pages entries on Israel, Palestine, and in their associated Talk pages. There is no need to start a flame war by starting the entire thing all over again in yet another article. This topic already is discussed in more than place. When I see someone trying to start shoving this into yet more articles, I can only wonder at their purpose; nothing good can come of this. Please stop your current attempts, and try to work on the academics in the same way that other contributors here do. Work on the topic in the appropriate article, as we already are doing, and please try to remove any traces of anti-Israeli polemics, Ok? RK

• Telling a newbie "there is no need to start a flame war" sounds like the first volley in a flame war, in my humble opinion. Let's try not to scare away another contributor before we've had a change to introduce NPOV.
• I thought a lot about this yesterday, and even this morning while commuting. We need to find a way to accommodate the views of those who consider Israel illegitmate, without endorsing or condemning those views.

Let's face it, Israel's existence is controversial: most of the Arab world wants to delegitimize and destroy Israel. We can't ignore that.

Are you sure? I've travelled in the Arab world and, while I encountered a lot of hatred towards Israel, I never heard a call for the destruction of Israel (except by _really_ fundamentalist people who behaved almost crazy). I heard a lot of Israel denying fundamental human rights to the Palestinians and Israel ignoring international law and about the plight of the Palestinian refugees, though. But this is only my personal impression I got from talking to people, maybe you have better sources for your statement. --Elian

I believe your reports of the "man in the street" encounters you've had. Nonetheless, the 3 wars and the insistence on creating a 2nd Arab state in Palestine certainly look like a desire to destroy Israel. --Ed Poor

I hope we don't have to write something like "Israel's very existence is highly controversial, see X" at the beginning of every article relating to Israel. But if we have to, we will. It's better than harassing hapless newbies.

Please don't condemn new users, until and unless they've had a reasonable amount of time to learn NPOV. Say, a week? Or 3 warnings from a sysop? (I'd rather make it 7 :-) --Ed Poor

RK, thank you for amending your remarks to C. at the R.W. talk page. Such a magnanimous display of humility will go a long way toward engendering the collegial atmosphere we all strive for. --Ed Poor

Hi RK. Have you been following the commmments of 203.79.102.254 on various talk pages? They are placed at the top of the page, rather than the botton, are unsigned, and cautiously phrased -- but smell of anti-semitism. Slrubenstein

RK, would you or others who watch your Talk page, who help you with the articles on Judaism, be able to help with my question on Talk:Torah about "dictation" theory? I had been under the impression that this theory was peculiar to some groups, not generally accepted either by modern or ancient Judaism. Am I mistaken about that? Thank you, and your collaborators, for the quality of your work which in my opinion is consistently informative and helpful. — Mkmcconn

Could you explain why you have removed the information that certain groups see the Saudi government as a puppet regime? Why have you made changes in the name of NPOV only to define certain definitions of terrorism as merely polemical? Vera Cruz 17:12 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

I don't follow you. No sane person seriously believes that disagreements about relationships are the same thing as mass-murdering civilians. I understand that many Arabs have a seething hatred of Saudi Arabia; many also have a seething hatred of the US. They thus hate the fact that these nations have a relationship based on common economic, military and political goals. For my own reasons I also am against this relatioship. But no sane person can say that the Saudi's (or the US) are committing "terrorism" because they disapprove of their choice of allies. Making such a ludicrous statement is a irrational, and makes words have no meaning at all. I happen to disagree with you on certain issues - so shall I now label you a "terrorist", and say that your postings I disagree with are acts of "terrorism"? Of course not; that would be a violently hateful thing to do. RK

It just so happens that I believe that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist nation, but not because of its alliance (on paper only) with the US. Rather, I accuse them of terrorism because they have funded Osama Bin Ladin's Al Qaeda terrorist group to the tune of nearly 300 million dollars, which has been used to mass-murder civilians in the United States, Israel, Africa and Yemen. The word terrorism should be reserved for crimes against humanity, not relationships that you happen to disagree with. RK

I believe the US is a terrorist nation. Not because of it's alliances, but because it actively commits acts of terrorism. I believe this is what the Arabs are referring to as well. Vera Cruz 18:22 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

RK, I'm not taking sides on the Palestinian article, even though I'm a bit upset to see my careful reworking, um, messed up by the new anonymous writer.

But I think you'll have better results if you make a series of small changes, rather than one large revision containing many changes. Let's try to work with and see what happens. Okay? --Uncle Ed

RK, please stop using the material from Richard Wagner and anti-Semitism. As I noted in the Richard Wagner talk page, it contains some copyrighted material. I haven't updated that article because I think it shouldn't even exist, but I have reworded and expanded the material in a previous edit of Richard Wagner. That material is currently in limbo at http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Richard_Wagner&oldid=472480 . The best thing to do now is probably to resolve the Clutch problem first. -- CYD

Understood. Clutch is a vandal, plain and simple, and is riding roughshod over the consensus of everyone else. Unless he is banned, it appears as if the Misplaced Pages moderators approve of his vandalism. As I have told them before, Wikiepdia is doomed to failure as long as it is a forum for the most obnoxious people, who seem to have infinite amounts of time to waste on copy-editing wars. If the Misplaced Pages moderators refuse to be responsible in banning vandals and anti-Semites, then they only have themselves to blame for the mess they have gotten themselves into. RK