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Revision as of 01:20, 20 July 2012 editTimotheus Canens (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators38,430 edits manually archive all closed threads← Previous edit Revision as of 12:15, 20 July 2012 edit undoTimotheus Canens (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators38,430 edits →Dailycare: close, JJG indef topic banned; Dailycare advisedNext edit →
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==Dailycare== ==Dailycare==
{{hat|{{user|Jiujitsuguy}} is banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces. {{user|Dailycare}} is advised that it's a good idea to double-check existing sources, especially in such a fraught and contentious topic area. ] (]) 12:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)}}

===Request concerning Dailycare=== ===Request concerning Dailycare===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (]) ; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (])
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*I have to concur with the comment directly above, although I'd also generally advise Dailycare to be a bit more careful about sourcing. Mistakes happen, it's not A Big Deal, but especially in this topic area it's good to double-check. ] (]) 22:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC) *I have to concur with the comment directly above, although I'd also generally advise Dailycare to be a bit more careful about sourcing. Mistakes happen, it's not A Big Deal, but especially in this topic area it's good to double-check. ] (]) 22:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
*Given the accusations against T. Canens, I've taken a careful look through the conclusions reached by him, and find the accusations of wrongdoing/vendetta to be totally baseless. His conclusions are well-supported by the facts of the case. Dailycare made at most a mistake, ''and one which at most compounded JJG's initial error''. The correct thing to do in such a situation would've been to bring that to Dailycare's attention, not to run straight for AE. JJG was already on the very last chance here, and I think the ] has come to its end. Support (re)imposing an indefinite topic ban on JJG, with a minimum of six months' productive editing in unrelated areas required before we consider any request to lift it. (That does ''not'' mean "editing very little if at all"&mdash;show us you can do it right.) For Dailycare, I think a reminder that it's a good idea to double-check existing sources, especially in a topic area as fraught and contentious as this one, is all the "sanction" that's needed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC) *Given the accusations against T. Canens, I've taken a careful look through the conclusions reached by him, and find the accusations of wrongdoing/vendetta to be totally baseless. His conclusions are well-supported by the facts of the case. Dailycare made at most a mistake, ''and one which at most compounded JJG's initial error''. The correct thing to do in such a situation would've been to bring that to Dailycare's attention, not to run straight for AE. JJG was already on the very last chance here, and I think the ] has come to its end. Support (re)imposing an indefinite topic ban on JJG, with a minimum of six months' productive editing in unrelated areas required before we consider any request to lift it. (That does ''not'' mean "editing very little if at all"&mdash;show us you can do it right.) For Dailycare, I think a reminder that it's a good idea to double-check existing sources, especially in a topic area as fraught and contentious as this one, is all the "sanction" that's needed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
{{hab}}

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    Dailycare

    Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) is banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces. Dailycare (talk · contribs) is advised that it's a good idea to double-check existing sources, especially in such a fraught and contentious topic area. T. Canens (talk) 12:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Dailycare

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Jiujitsuguy (talk)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Dailycare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. In this edit Dailycare writes the following According to Avi Shlaim, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and he references the 2007 edition of Shlaim's book, Lion of Jordan: The Life of King Hussein in War and Peace at page 238. I thoroughly checked that page and found that Shlaim makes no reference to Nasser disregarding the views or counsel of his intelligence service. Indeed, there is no mention of Egyptian intelligence at all, on that page. I then scoured the entire book and read it cover to cover. Perhaps, I thought, Dailycare had just mistakenly referenced the wrong page. In fact, I could not find any reference in Shlaim's book to Nasser disregarding the counsel of his intelligence. I then thought that perhaps Dailycare meant to cite a different book written by Shlaim and that that information could be found there. So I checked the only other book written by Shlaim that is referenced in the article (The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, 2000, 2001) and that book too is devoid of any such reference or information regarding Nasser's disregarding the counsel of his intelligence. See page 238 I was unable to retrieve the cited page reference for the other book on Google Books but I scanned the relevant page into my computer. I will be more than willing to email the page (and any other pages in the book) to any Syop wishing to see the referenced page.

      The relevant page can also be accessed here at TinyPic


    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    Warned here and here

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This is black and white. I could have added additional information concerning other matters but did not want to cloud this clear-cut case. He states that Avi Shlaim said something that Avi Shlaim clearly did not say. If that is not source misrepresentation, I don't know what is. In a previous AE, T. Canens noted that Dailycare was careless in the manner in which he employed a particular reference and Daily was issued a warning. Well, this case represents outright misrepresentation in the extreme and something more that just a warning is clearly warranted. Moreover, even if the insatnt case can somehow, under the most liberal interpretation be construed as "careless," how many instances of carelessness are we willing to tolerate?

    @nableezy, Uh no...Other historians including Michael Oren and Leslie Stein have stated that Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence. But Dailycare added the following, "According to Avi Shlaim" and Avi Shlaim made no such representation. Dailycare didn't even bother reading Shlaim because had he done so, he would have seen that Shlaim never said that. By adding the words "According to Avi Shlaim" Dailycare made an affirmative representation that Shlaim said something that he clearly didn't say. That is source misrepresentation.
    @Nableezy you view me as your enemy of sorts and since your return from your t-ban, have been the first to comment on AE's which I initiated which says a lot about you. My edit was sourced by Stein and Oren both of whom clearly state that Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own staff I even quoted Stein in the reference. You can't be more explicit than that. But Dailycare then twists it by attributing views held by Stein and Oren (who were explicitly referenced by me just prior) to Shlaim. He stated "According to Avi Shlaim" and Avi Shlaim never held this view.
    @Nableezy. Did you even bother taking note of this edit where I clearly and unambiguously attributed Nasser's disregard of his military staff to Leslie Stein? Stein, "Fawzi reported to Nasser that: 'There is nothing there. No massing of forces. Nothing.'" p. 266 these were views held by Stein and Oren, not Shlaim. But Dailycare then writes "According to Avi Shlaim" attributing views to Shlaim that Shlaim clearly never said. That is source distortion. Whether it was purposeful or not, it shows that Dailycare didn't bother reading Shlaim. Otherwise he would have realized that Shlaim never said those things.
    @Nableezy That sentence "Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" is attributed to Stein and Michael Oren both of whom I referenced immediately prior. The statement is 100% accurate and verifiable. I don't have a problem with the statement that I myself introduced. I have a problem with Dailycare stating "According to Avi Shlaim" which is an outright distortion and misrepresentation of Shlaim. Had he taken just a brief moment to read the sources, he would have realized that his affirmative attribution was an absolute falsity. Anyone reading the article and checks the sources that I noted knows that the sources state that Nasser disregarded the intelligence assessment of his military staff. See for example oren. yet the Egyptian president preferred to overlook these repudiations and to proceed as if the Israelis were about to attack the problem with Dailycare's edit is that by specifically stating "According to Avi Shlaim" he attributes this not to Oren and not to Stein but specifically to Shlaim, which is patent falsehood.
    @Dailcare. The first AE I brought was not dismissed as "frivolous" as you falsely state. At least one of your edits was deemed "careless" and as you may recall, you were issued an ARBPIA warning. Second, my goal is to see the accurate use of sources. When you affirmatively attributed a statement to Shlaim that Shlaim did not say, that was a source of concern for me and it should be for all others as well. This AE has turned into the usual partisan bullshit. It is a clear cut case of source misrepresentation by Dailycare. What his intention was in manipulating my edit is immaterial. He performed it in a reckless, careless manner and in his previous AE, he was cited there for being careless as well and that is why a warning was issued.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    I have now corrected Dailycare's inaccuracy and have properly attributed the edit to Michael Oren with inline citation.
    @T. Canens. I absolutely take credit for that edit as well as this and according to Michael Oren and Leslie Stein, Nasser disregarded the advice of his own staff and continued the buildup. What I didn't do is attribute that statement to Avi Shlaim. I noted the sources and if you want me to email you the relevant pages I will absolutely do that. What I did not do is state "according to Avi Shlaim" because Avi Shlaim absolutely never said that. Moreover, even if Dailycare's edit predates the warning, continued retention of it constitutes continued distortion and, I felt strongly that this type of affirmative false attribution is something that had to be dealt with. Bottom line Dailycare affirmatively and falsely attributed a comment to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say.
    Comment and notification to other Syops

    About six weeks ago, at the request of a member of Oversight, I filed a detailed complaint against Tim Canens alleging bias in the extreme and abuse of his Syop authority. The complaint was long and exhaustive and Canens was required to respond to each and every charge. This likely took some time and no doubt he was annoyed for having to "waste" time answering my charges and clarifications from Oversight. Ultimately, Oversight determined that no sanction was warranted. I obviously disagreed but voiced no objection to the substance of their determination. My only request however was that given the antagonistic relationship between myself and Canens and the fact that he was aware the it was I who filed the complaint, that he recuse himself from all AEs in which I am either the filer or respondent. I predicted that if I was T-banned, it would be T. Canens who would be the main antagonist and the one advocating the ban. Oversight considered the request but noted that there were mechanisms in place to ensure that there would be transparency and fairness. It is interesting to note that in both of the recent AEs that I filed, it was T. Canens who responded as the first syop and almost immediately, this despite the fact that other AEs (like Dali lama ding dong's) were languishing and some were being archived for lack of commentary. I hope that other Syops who view this case will not be influenced by TC's metaphoric poisoning of the well, which he is quite adept at doing. My interest was to ensure that sources remained accurate. The only thing I can be faulted for is not providing an inline cite, which in hindsight would have been more helpful. But my edits were well sourced with reliable and verifiable sources. Dailycare however falsely attributed a comment to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    user notified


    Discussion concerning Dailycare

    Statement by Dailycare

    Here we go again?

    Concerning the content, I added "According to Shlaim" in front of the sentence since the sentence was attributed, by Jiujitsuguy, to Shlaim (and Mutawi, but Shlaim is mentioned first). I decided to mention the author since Jiujitsuguy had removed the Shemesh source, and content sourced from it, from the article. By writing "According to Shlaim, ..." and "According to Shemesh, ..." I was able to present both narratives of why Nasser moved his forces. Pure and simple. Alternatively we could write "According to some sources, ..." and "According to other sources, ..." if there are multiple sources for both viewpoints.

    Concerning Jiujitsuguy's behaviour, this is the second frivolous AE against me within a short space of time. Jiujitsuguy is under a recent, personal and stringent warning that any further disturbance will result in an indefinite topic ban. My suggestion is, that this topic ban would now be activated either as indefinite or fixed term. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:09, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

    I'm of course moved by the way you're checking my edits with such loving care, in fact I feel like I should be paying you. However, these AE requests need to stop as you're wasting people's time.--Dailycare (talk) 20:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    I can be (even) more active with double-checking going forward. I agree that it's a good idea. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 06:09, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Dailycare

    This is as spurrious as the last report, and something should be done about this repeated bad-faith use of AE to attempt to remove one of the better editors from the topic area. the sentence Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran. was already in the article. It was cited to Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. It was added by, and this is where this gets comical, Jiujitsuguy (search for Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence in that diff). The material that JJG is objecting to having cited to Shlaim was added by JJG to a sentence that cited Shlaim. If anybody is to be sanctioned for poor sourcing, it needs to be JJG.

    All Dailycare added was According to Avi Shlaim. He did not add the reference, he did not add the rest of the sentence. Dailycare attributed what was cited, in part, to Shlaim to Shlaim. The claim that Dailycare wrote that sentence is false, and seemingly made to intentionally mislead admins. That the material was actually added by JJG only makes this an even more egregious case of an underhanded use of AE. nableezy - 16:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

    @ JJG, uhh no. Your edit didn't cite Stein or Oren for the sentence. The only two sources cited in the sentence that you added the material were, and still are, Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. That is, you added material to a sentence that had sources without adding any sources for that sentence. Any reader looking at that sentence and seeing what is cited would assume that Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93 are what backs up the material you added. It is you, not Dailycare, that inserted that material in a sentence that cited Shlaim. All Dailycare did was make explicit what your edit did implicitly. Again, if anybody should be sanctioned for poor sourcing, and yet another bad-faith use of AE, it is you. nableezy - 17:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    I dont view you as enemy, and its ironic that in a request about a user attributing to somebody something they did not say you do exactly that with me. I comment in AEs where a user, in bad-faith, distorts what has happened so that he can attempt to remove somebody he views as his enemy of sorts. And no, you emphatically did not cite Stein or Oren for the phrase Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence. Anybody can look at the diff and see that the sources that appear following the sentence that you added that phrase to are Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. Trying to play fast and loose with the record isnt the wisest choice here as we can all see the diffs. You did not cite Oren or Stein, and the only thing that DC did was explicitly attribute to Shlaim what was sourced to Shlaim, and it was sourced to Shlaim because you were, once again, careless with your sourcing. nableezy - 18:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    Jesus Christ, do you really not understand the simple concept that the citations appear after the sentence they support? That you used Oren and Stein for the sentence Egyptian intelligence later confirmed that the Soviet reports were in fact groundless. but not for the phrase Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence? That the only sources for the entire sentence Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran were, and still are, Shlaim and Mutawi? If you dont understand that concept then we have a bigger problem, though it is a problem that can be solved without you being banned. If you do understand that concept, and you are simply feigning ignorance, then we have a different problem, one that has a straight-forward solution. nableezy - 18:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    How is the phrase you added "attributed to Stein"? Are you seriously disputing that the only sources that appear at the end of the sentence that you added that phrase to are not Shlaim and Mutawi? Yes or no for that last question please. nableezy - 19:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    I dont know how many ways I can write this, but the sentence was cited to Shlaim, and you made it so that Shlaim was the cited source for something that you say Shlaim never said. Again, DC made explicit what you edit did implicitly. There is no rational reason for you to continue to dispute this, and your steadfast refusal to actually acknowledge that the sentence was, and is, cited to Shlaim and Mutawi is inexplicable. Your edit made it so that Shlaim was cited for the material. DC's edit made that implicit attribution explicit. Which of those is "source distortion"? The one that actually adds material unsupported by the cited source? Or the one that explicitly notes what the cited source is? nableezy - 19:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    Comment - JJG, which of the following do you regard as a more serious violation, what you say Dailycare did or what you did by writing Talk:Operation_Sharp_and_Smooth#Results, a piece of unsourced original research based on your personal opinion, followed by a policy violating addition of OR to an infobox ? I don't understand how it is possible to violate policy in a very obvious way like that on one day and complain about an editor violating policy in a convoluted and obscure way on another day. Dailycare has a clean block record. You don't. Which of the editors presents a greater risk to content based their editing history and the nature of these contrasting edits ? Sean.hoyland - talk 19:37, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Comment by AnkhMorpork
    1. JJG added the content that "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence"
    2. This content is not in dispute and is confirmed by several sources (Oren, Stein). JJG then adds a source immediately before this sentence to support his recent additions. This could have been done is a clearer manner by inserting it after the next sentence, even though the material's accuracy is not in question.
    3. Dailycare mis-attributes this statement to Shlaim. This is a poor edit which demonstrates that he did not inspect the sources and that he has a tendentious agenda.
    While JJG could have provided better clarity by providing a precise inline citation to support his unchallenged additions, I fail to see how this has any bearing on DC's attempt to trivialize the material by falsely attributing it to a single source that he manifestly had not read. Ankh.Morpork 19:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Activism1234
    The case is not a difficult one - although there may have been some confusion over wording initally, at the end, Dailycare still unproperly referenced a source where the source did not say anything remotely close. I'm sure mistakes like these happen all the time - after all, we are only human - but this is part of the Misplaced Pages process - an edit is made, improved, a mistake is cited, users are notified of the mistake, and the mistake is corrected. Unfortunately, it was not corrected, and based on previous warnings that JJG brought up, and previous source manipulation, the behavior represents a poor agenda, and possibly done on purpose. "According to Shlaim..." but it's not according to Shlaim, and before including those words - regardless of whether he was referenced - it should've been checked, and when it was pointed out that it wasn't true or reverted, it should've been left or discussed further. It was Dailycare's fault for making a statement and not properly checking out to see if it was true. Content was attributed to Shlaim that Shlaim never said - that is a major deal.
    After that, there are users here who are arguing against JJG and attacking him in cases that are similar to ad hominem attacks, rather than focus on the case at hand. The AE is being screwed up over that, and it shouldn't be. These should have no bearing on the procedures, as we don't need to take as a fact whatever JJG says - the admins can check up on everything for themselves, and JJG brings Misplaced Pages links and diffs as well. There is no reason for this to turn into a battleground and silly attacks. That goes for everyone - those attacking and those being attacked. It's childish. State your case, and don't try to divert attention and make this something it shouldn't be. If people can support JJG, or can support Dailycare, then they should go ahead and do so without diverting attention from the main cause. Otherwise, nothing will get done, and this will all turn into a silly chaotic mess without any cohesion or cooperation.
    T. Canens, perhaps you saw it, and perhaps you missed it, which is fine. Reading your comment below, I think it's the latter case, but just to help out, JJG did answer what you wrote previously above. He bolded it as "@T.Canens." Hope it helps. I do not see any reason to ignore Dailycare's unproper source manipulation and instead punish JJG when he answered the allegations above, taking credit and explaining according to whom this was true etc, so I just wanted to point this out in order to help with the AE. I do hope it helps.
    I would also like if some other admins can take a look at this case and make a judgement call. Thanks. --Activism1234 21:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by Shrike I see a pretty clear case of source misrepresentation by Dailycare. He specifically attributes a view to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say. The edits made by JJG were accurate, verifiable and well-sourced. Dailycare however didn't bother reading the source and thereby caused a misleading edit. I don't know whether Dailycare did it on purpose but it certainly was very sloppy and careless.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 05:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Dailycare

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Putting aside for the moment the fact that this diff pre-dates Dailycare's ARBPIA warning, I'm particularly interested in JJG's response to this very interesting diff in which the phrase "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" was first introduced to the article. T. Canens (talk) 16:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
      • This request is doubly meritless. First, the diff provided predated Dailycare's ARBPIA warning - in fact, it predated the closure of the last Dailycare thread, also brought by JJG. It therefore cannot be actioned at AE. Second, even were the edit to have occurred after the ARBPIA warning, this request must still be dismissed. This is a straightforward case of unclean hands. JJG's edit here introduced the phrase "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" in a sentence cited to Shlaim and Mutawi. By his own logic in his previous report concerning Dailycare ("at the very least made it appear as though 's book contained this information by adding the just before the reference"), that constitutes source misrepresentation. Having misrepresented the source himself, he will not now be allowed to complain that another editor erred in relying in good faith on his misrepresentation.

        It is remarkable indeed that someone who raised allegations of source falsification in multiple AE threads, engaged in essentially the same misconduct that he has accused others. That suggests a tendentious attempt to game the AE process, rather than a good faith attempt to deal with actual misconduct. The previous AE thread on Dailycare, brought by JJG as well, containing three totally spurious allegations of source distortion, is a good example.

        JJG was subject to an indefinite topic ban in January this year; that topic ban was lifted on appeal in April. I think it beyond clear that the lifting of the ban had been improvident, and that an indefinite topic ban for this kind of continued battleground conduct is appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

    • I have to concur with the comment directly above, although I'd also generally advise Dailycare to be a bit more careful about sourcing. Mistakes happen, it's not A Big Deal, but especially in this topic area it's good to double-check. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Given the accusations against T. Canens, I've taken a careful look through the conclusions reached by him, and find the accusations of wrongdoing/vendetta to be totally baseless. His conclusions are well-supported by the facts of the case. Dailycare made at most a mistake, and one which at most compounded JJG's initial error. The correct thing to do in such a situation would've been to bring that to Dailycare's attention, not to run straight for AE. JJG was already on the very last chance here, and I think the rope has come to its end. Support (re)imposing an indefinite topic ban on JJG, with a minimum of six months' productive editing in unrelated areas required before we consider any request to lift it. (That does not mean "editing very little if at all"—show us you can do it right.) For Dailycare, I think a reminder that it's a good idea to double-check existing sources, especially in a topic area as fraught and contentious as this one, is all the "sanction" that's needed. Seraphimblade 20:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)