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Revision as of 14:05, 20 July 2012

Military history: Baltic states / European / Polish / Early Modern C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history C This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale. This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Baltic states military history task force European military history task force Polish military history task force Early Modern warfare task force (c. 1500 – c. 1800)

Poland Start‑class Low‑importance

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Sweden Start‑class Low‑importance

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Outcome

Oskar Halecki, W: F. Reddaway, J. H. Penson. The Cambridge History of Poland. CUP Archive. p. 473. ISBN 978-1-00-128802-4. Retrieved 17 July 2012.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) claims this battle was a minor Swedish victory, but he even gets the dates wrong. All other sources I find call the battle a Polish victory. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I've read several sources claiming this to be one minor Swedish victory, I've also read several claiming this one to be a Polish victory. However the majority of the sources I know of claim this one to be "inconclusive". I recommend we change the result to = inconclusive, which is what most of the historians agree with.Imonoz (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually the Cambridge History says it was a Polish victory: "(Koniecpolski) defeated the Swedes at Tczew, where Gustavus Adolphus himself was wounded".VolunteerMarek 00:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I added this for that reason. Imonoz, could you cite your sources? I am certainly willing to consider other options, but first, we have to know who states what. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The result of this battle at Wiki have always (almost) been inconclusive, for years that is. Historians are claiming different result outcomes. We're not here to pick eithers side but being neutral and we're not neutral if we go with either Polish or Swedish victory here since that's what is being claimed. What the historians go with, we go with, simple as that. And yes I'll try to find the sources, I'll send back.Imonoz (talk) 13:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, unless we cite reliable sources. As things stand, we have two references calling this a Polish victory. This website does not look very reliable. The authors are so-so, but if they are the only source, it seems potentially WP:FRINGE to me. Now, the battle was inconclusive from a tactical view, as no army was defeated, but from the strategic view, as Podhorecki makes the argument, it was a Polish victory - they achieved much more than the Swedes, considering their goals. I don't mind changing the outlook to inconclusive, if reliable sources can be cited for that. For now we have only two sources, Podhorecki and , both of which call it a Polish history (ok, the second calls it a Swedish defeat, if anybody wants to mince the words). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Move request

A request that this page title be changed to Battle of Dirschau is under discussion. Please do not move this page until the discussion is closed.

Battle of Dirschau outnumbers "Battle of Tczew" 71 to 7 at google books. Dirschau is also the proper name in accordance to the Gdansk vote.HerkusMonte (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, for starters, that's not 71 but 23, since, as you well know (since you pointed it out to me once) you always have to go to the last page to get an accurate number of hits. And of those, a number appear to be the exact same source published multiple times, since ... 1795.VolunteerMarek 17:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I support this. Imonoz (talk) 17:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Nationalism

This article seems overall nationalistic with claims that doesn't belong to "the battle of Dirschau" and other one sided information. Anyone agrees? Since it's a new one this is very likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imonoz (talk • contribs) 18:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Please be more specific, and please try to avoid judgmental terms like nationalistic, which on Misplaced Pages is a pretty serious and rather uncivil accusation. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well.. That's why I brought it up isn't it? It seems this battle perspective are written from one point of view and mainly from Polish sources, it wouldn't surprise me if it is mainly pasted from Polish wikipedia. "this was particularly notable, as it marked the first time that the Swedish cavalry was able to take on the Polish cavalry, renowned at the time as the "best cavalry in Europe", this for example? In Swedish eyes this is not true as they countered Polish cavalry before, and renowned at the time for the best cavalry? From Polish eyes that is? As they didn't encounter every cavalry unit in the world this statement is really dumb. Almost every nation had nationalistic point of views and said that stuff, why would we go with Polands statement?It's fine you have it on your own little PL:wikipedia but not on the mainstream.

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