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Revision as of 06:35, 30 April 2006

This article was nominated for deletion on April 17, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

"The result of the debate was keep. This does seem more of a content dispute than anything else, but the fact that this it is a name used at least somewhat commonly in India rules out a complete delete. Of interest is the fact that the word "Gurunath" does not even appear on the Shri Gurudev Mahendranath page, which certainly does not help the argument that the Gurunath article should be about the word coinage claim. The page will be kept, but primarily to mention the use as an Indian name. The other section should be removed, or put at the bottom of the page *after* it is at least mentioned (and referenced) on the Shri Gurudev Mahendranath page. Turnstep 14:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)"

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/Archive 1

NPOV Dispute

1. That Mahendranath coined the term is disputed. lack of evidence for this, and plenty of evidence to the opposite.

Hamsacharya dan 15:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

But the article now says simply that Mahendranath wrote that he had coined the term. And this is true and it is documented. What's the problem? The rest is simply a diatribe written by someone else and is in the archives and should stay there. Nobody is stopping anyone from adding cited information to the article. —Hanuman Das 04:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Kindly see

Kindly see: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Bhadani#Gurunath Thank you. --Bhadani 09:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Long boring lecture moved here from the archives

Answer to claim that the word Gurunath was coined in 1986 by Mahendranath:

The word Gurunath was used in 1967 when wrote this poem, part of which is given below, in honor of all Gurus and especially Gorakshanath Babaji. This word was also in use and existed thousands of years before. In India, people have been giving this name to their children for a long time, singing it in bhajans, and in honor of this ancient word Gurunath, they give their homes and businesses this very name. The temperment of India Yogis is free and flowing, and it is only from the West that this coining and trademarking has come into being. It's an ego trip to claim ancient words like Siddha, Yoga, Kundalini, and Gurunath as one's personal property. It's just like the white man coming to America and dividing the lands and rivers which the Native American Indians rightly believed to be a free and flowing gift of God, and the common property of all. With divisions, grabbing, and coining began all the headaches and problems of humankind. Surely a greedy and insecure way to go about things, and certainly does not promote unity and harmony in humanity.

Allakh Niranjan, Sri Gurunath

Tum yogijan jivan prabhat

Kripa nidan de do vardan

Harpran tumhara anusandhan

Tum swayambhu jivan jwala ho

Raj hans ka urtha ujala ho

Hrydaya Nath prano pranam

Tum jan ke jivan jwala ho

Hamsacharya dan 15:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• The 'coining' of a term that is already in existence and attempting to divorce the word from the etymological and linguistic context completely seems a strange attempt at putting forth a new world-view and doctrine. 'Gurunath' has been in use in India for many centuries. Devotees have chanted the refrain 'Bolo Sri Sat Gurunath Maharaj ki JAI!!!' since time immemorial. One only need to actually go to a temple or satsang (devotional gathering) almost anywhere in India to hear it. Practically all orders, missions, sects and sub-sects use this term.

"So I have coined a word—Gurunath ... This word can be the Western term for the same thing as Gurudev and it circumvents any religious or Eastern connections."

One must ask themselves - is it possible to take a term from Sanskrit - a language that has existed in India since ancient times (even by modern academic scholarly standards), and proposition its new usage to 'circumvent' Eastern connections. Furthermore, Sanskrit as a language cannot be divorced from a religio~philosophical context. The very existence of the language hinges on everything that would be deemed 'religious' by the West. Even further still, let us give Mahendranath (born Lawrence Miles) the benefit of the doubt...still the Western term for 'Gurudev' still puts the term 'Gurunath' back in the realm of religiousity and its Eastern connection for it means the same as 'Gurudev'. How does this 'newly coined' term 'Gurunath' actually work in practice? The article in Misplaced Pages completely glosses over it and merely states it as a patch to cover a potentially dangerous hole in a new sectarian lineage of house-holder yogi lay people who reside or are from the exclusivity of the West. So who exactly bestows a Guru-status on his shishyas (devotees)? For a according to those who belong the same order believe a Guru must pass away for one to get Guru-status. Or is this something exclusively for Westerners who feel when the time is right they may spontaneously bloom into 'Guru status'? Indeed, 'Gurunath' was his solution. So, newly coined terms may confer solutions to such dilemmas. Very interesting indeed. How did he know he had reached 'Guru Status' himself? The fact is that sometimes the devotees (or those that find a person and their ideals appealing) confer this status more than any other individual. Look at Marxism...Marx's distain for all things religious would be a bit incongruous with the fact that many revere his picture as if he were some religious figure and just peer into the fanatical, authoritarian dictators of whatever denomination to see that 'religious' reverence is more than evident in the core power structure.

Getting back to the term 'Gurunath' from within the Indian (and Eastern) tradition. We find that it is not used exclusively for householder yogis or sannyasins...but rather the term has been used to refer to persons of both pedigrees...it is also a term that addresses the Supreme Guru - the Lord Himself/Herself. The word 'Nath' is found in all major religions and within 'Hinduism' is found to inrelation to practically every God or Goddess...for the Gods and Goddesses of India have many epithets. One must only take a Char Dam pilgrimage in the Himalayas to find that even the mountains themselves are considered to be living, breathing yogis...they are Naths too - Kedar Nath, Badri Nath, Amar Nath...

The Aghoris, Siddhas, Tantriks, Kaulas and Kapilas (to name a few of the more esoteric branches of 'Hinduism' and 'Buddhism') all have very close links to the Nath tradition. There has been and is still a lot of cross fertilisation going on. Many have taken initiation into a number of these traditions - sometimes both 'Hindu' and 'Buddhist'. So, as the practictioner progresses what exactly is their fold? It often becomes subordinate to the transendental quest and advanced practioners eventually become Masters that freely take from whatever tradition to get a specific teaching across to particular groups of people.

The term 'Gurudev' also is not solely reserved for the person that has foresaken family life. In India, it is extremely common for this term to be used to refer to one whom is very well respected in any given field. For example, one may call Pt. (Pundit) Ravi Shankar 'Gurudev' if he were your sitar teacher/guru. Rabinranath Tagore is often refered to with the title 'Gurudev'.

The term 'Swami'(male) 'Swamini' (female), however, is generally used to refer to one has foresaken their family and who often lives in an ashram or temple, and often wearing the ochre robes.

Currently, there seems nothing wrong with creating and promoting ones own synthesis of tantric teachings for a particular audience, but to claim one 'coins' a new term from a term that has already been minted in numerous currencies seems a bit too far. Perhaps, it would be better to say 'I have put a new gloss on this term'. For that is what the Buddha Sakyamuni did. The Buddha took the term 'brahmin' and gave it a new meaning - much to the consternation of the dogmatic priestly class...the Buddha even refered to himself as a brahmin. In fact, if one were to read the Sutras, one will find that the Buddha was referred to not as 'the Buddha' when he spoke but 'Bhagavan'...as in 'SriBhagavan uvaca' which is often translated as 'the Blessed Lord/One Spoke/Said'...anyone who knows Sanskrit and has read the Bhagavad Gita will notice that Sri Krishna is referred to in the same way...and indeed certain verses may easily be said by either.

May you all find what you seek...be true to yourself... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.229.248 (talk • contribs)

Repeatedly moving this here is pointless. It's a lecture, not a discussion. And it's archived. If you have citable facts to add to the article, add them. If not, enter into discussions. No one takes these lectures seriously. TL;DR:GF. —Hanuman Das 17:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it may be boring...but someone is finding it serious enough to address it...argue what you may whether it is a 'lecture' or 'discussion' the points raised should be ample enough debate/discussion food. Again, look closer and you'll see. The initial article on 'Gurunath' actually took the tone of lecture and promoted the ideology of one individual within a context of a topic that clearly did not hinge on one individuals mind-set. However, the past is past and the fact remains it has been changed and new editors are contributing and that is great. The current revised version is much better until other sources can be injected. All apologies if it all may seem like a 'lecture'...but what is 'boring' to one person is enlightening for another.

Ram, Ram, Ram

You misunderstand. It wasn't being addressed by me because I am not the one with the sources of the information you present. You cannot expect other people to do the work for you. If you think something is missing, it is your (or someone else with access to references) responsibility to provide it. It is completely unreasonable to make a complaint that information is missing from an article and expect someone else to do something about it. In any case, the information has still not been cited with academic references. If that is still the case in a few days, the new infomation added to the article will have to be removed. It is the responsiblilty of the person adding the information to add references for where the information can be independently verified. WP:CITE -Hanuman Das 02:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Updates

The page requires a lot of fresh inputs, and updates. I shall do the same very shortly. --Bhadani 08:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Names given in the article are first names or middle names, and not family names. That shows the lack of concern for accuracy. --Bhadani 08:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Bhadani, please to meet you. It doesn't take much Google searching to find that it is also a family name. It is simply the case that the individuals found are not (currently) notable, and thus there is no reason to list them. Here are some examples: R. Gurunath, Mohan Gurunath, Pramod Gurunath, V. Gurunath and Sons!, etc. Also, your introduction is very inventive, I grant that it might even be true; but per Misplaced Pages standards, it can only be included if you can provide a citation per WP:CITE. As I am sure you know, the burden of finding a citation remains with the one who wishes to add the information. Since I'm sure you know this policy, I'll give you a few days to cite your sources. Otherwise, any editor may remove the information as uncited. Thanks for your additions! —Hanuman Das 13:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Uncited assertions

The section below has been removed due to lack of verifiability. Please do not return it to the article until references can be provided. Per WP:VERIFY - Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor, and The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. —Hanuman Das 03:00, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Gurunath, a term used in the Hindu tradition for last several centuries as a shortened from of Guru Gorakhanath, and the term finds wide reference in the tradition of the Naths. The term emerged as a generic term to describe the yogis who practiced the tenet of Guru Gorakhanath and his guru Matsyendranath.

Use of Gurunath as a name

Over a period of time, the term also found currency as a name.

BEHAVIOR Dispute

I am asking you once again to follow Misplaced Pages policy. I removed uncited material and moved it to the talk page per WP:VERIFY. You restored that material to the article without citing references. That is violation of policy number 1. You also retaliated by removing cited material that is completely in line with WP policy. That is violation #2, a violation of WP:POINT. I have had enough of your arbitrary edits, refusal to discuss, and incessant retaliation. You are disrupting Misplaced Pages, and if you persist, you are likely to end up permanently banned. Are you going to make a good faith effort to discuss? If not, a formal complaint about your behavior will be filed. —Hanuman Das 04:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Hanuman Das. The International Nath Order is an organization started and run for years by the author of the cited quote in the other meanings section according to his wikipedia page Shri Gurudev Mahendranath. The cited quote does not meet the standards of verifiability set by WP:V to be published on a page other than the page about the author. It certainly does not merit to be half the size of the article when there are 52,000 Ghits for Gurunath, and only 2 Ghits for the quote by Shri Gurudev Mahendranath. Hamsacharya dan 05:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I beleive it is adequately cited, as did the admin who denied your AfD. Please stop interfering with valid cited material. Why not use you time more wisely and find citations for the material you want to include? It is not my responsibilty to help you do that. I want the material included as much as you do, but you have to provide citations. The first sentence reeks of what is called "popular etymology" and is probably not true. That is why WP has WP:VERIFY as a policy. If you want to include more information, please simply cite it and stop edit warring. This has gone on long enough and there will be a User RfC on it soon. You could easily end up blocked or banned. So please find another way of interacting than like a 3 year old, okay? —Hanuman Das 05:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I already put it up for RfC. If you don't like it, then you should come up with a strong source rather than a weak self-reference. Quit playing games and pushing your Guru's agenda. Let's let the RfC decide. For now, leave controversial material off of the page. The admin Bhadani agrees that your reference is weak and WP:V is very clear on this issue. You're edit warring as much as anyone else - and you can also be blocked or banned. Hamsacharya dan 06:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

SOCKPUPPETING OF HANUMAN DAS AND BABA LOUIS REVEALED

Sockpuppeting confirmed Hanuman Das is the altered username of user Adityanath