Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:11, 1 May 2006

My Reply

1. I know what I am and what I'm not and I certainly don't have to prove it to the likes of you.

• I only ask for proof on the progom, your character is impotant to you - for me it holds no significance.

2. The 1955 Pogrom was not an act of genocide and I never said that. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word pogrom in any reputable English dictionary, Misplaced Pages or Wictionary and you will read that a pogrom is a campaign of violence orchestrated by a government against a minority. That is what happened in 1955. It was not an uprising - these are planned by groups against a government - nor was it a riot, which is a spontaneous outburst of violence against authority. To call what happened in Istanbul in 1955 the "September Uprising" or the "September Events" is so completely miss the significance altogether.

• For starters it is still disputed whether that government did actually do so - and if this is the only reason for stating it is a progom then it is at best flimsy - because as you say Menderes was used as a scapegoat by a very quick trial where proof was scare - they used him as a scapegoat becuase his ideas were radical and extreme - he wanted to ban arabic for example and made the call to prayer in Turkish. I still hold pogrom is wrong. I havent missed the significance - I am actually in the picture as a person who has direct knowledge, someone like you who is of Irish descent and breathing the Athens air shouldn't discount what I have to say. I do not profess to be an expert on the potato famine or why the Irish were segregated along with the blanks in America - but you with your little smattering of Turkish (enough not even to bother to read Mehmet Ali Birand's article but just quote it as a source) seem to think you know Turkish political history so well. Plus - if it is even labelled as a pogrom in Greek history - who are you to rewrite it on the basis that there is questionable evidence that their might have been government involvement?

I also took to question the statements (which you have changed since then) about men and women being raped - did you check your sources and then change it solely to the rape of women - and where where men forcibly circumscied in the streets? I have been asking for these sources for ages. Blue sea 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to remind you that the head of the same democratically elected government was executed on the orders of a Turkish court.

• Thank you for reminding me. Blue sea 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

3. Utter BS. A look at the editing history shows that your claim "That went in by accident and the minute I realisd this I re-directed it to the Chios article" is a lie:

04:07, 28 January 2006 82.145.231.45

09:16, 26 January 2006 Sysin (rv; vandalism)

05:00, 26 January 2006 82.145.231.57

18:08, 25 January 2006 Sysin (Setting the record straight.)

08:55, 25 January 2006 Blue sea

08:05, 25 January 2006 Steven Banks

You started the Chios Massacre article (claiming Turks were the victims) on 25 January. You then edited it using your own name. User:Sysin then corrected the article and you reverted it. After Sysin re-corrected the article, you blanked it and moved it to Chios. It has since been re-established as an article and now explains the truth about the incident. It's so ironic, but thanks to you there now is another article out there describing a massacre of Greeks by the Ottoman military. Are you now part of this Greek cabal?

• This is your danger and your biggest flaw Damac - this proves how dangerous assumption is. From just that list you have interpreted my actions my THOUGHTS and my intentions with no other colloboration. Is this how you write your articles? No other side of the story? Any evidence can be used to justify any argument if you use enough words. I reverted because I was actually going to rectify on that page - then it dawned on me there might be an article and when I found out there was I redirected. Blue sea 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

4. I was baptised a Catholic, but like you, profess no faith.

• What do you mean like me? When have I professed a faith or none? Blue sea 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

5. I will contribute articles on the massacres of Turks and Muslims in Greece during the War of Independence out of service to Misplaced Pages and not to you. I owe you nothing. I will name the articles according to the information I find on these incidents - I'm certainly not going to make my mind up in advance and will research my articles throughly.--Damac 08:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• You really dont understand what I write do you? I didnt say do it for me - though my attacking you might now have you in a defensive stance to pad out your contribution list a little in a different way - but I said do it for Misplaced Pages and try to make up for that shameful article. And sorry to say you do make up your mind in advance - and I am really worried if closed minded people like you are contributing to Misplaced Pages. As I say I await with interest to see how you write the murders of Turks in Thrace - I am sure there will be no pogroms or geneocides mentioned will there? Blue sea 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Irish Republican Army

Hiya

Fear Eireann has responded to the debate on Talk:Irish Republican Army by making changes along rather different lines to what was being discussed, along with some personal attacks on me on the talk page and on my talk page. I find this rather depressing and I'm not sure what the best way to respond is.

Should we continue the discussion (which it seems to me we can no longer hope for civility in) or should we simply implement the discussed changes, which all the contributors except Fear Eireann have agreed with?

If you think you can mend fences with him or persuade him to at least accept the good faith of other contributors, you might leave a note on his talk page. Palmiro 21:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I trust you don't mind that I split your recent contribution into two parts - the first a response to McCann and the second the new proposal re October 1917. (I hope you are sure about that date, it is spookily close to the Russian Revolution!) --Red King 22:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

1921 v 1922: Your case for 1922 is credible: I look forward to your references because the more we can nail this article down to indisputable facts, the less room there will be for people to tack their fantasies onto it.

Thinking about October 1917 again, there must be contemporaneous material equating the "Irish Revolution" with the Russian Revolution, so if you have access to that it would be great to include it in the pruned version of article that you proposed a few weeks ago. I'll bet that "Reds under the bed" was alleged a lot earlier than 1956. (or 1969 for that matter!) --Red King 09:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Did you get a chance to check the date of that meeting in which the disidents decided to break away and set up their own Army Council? I think we are close to resolving this long running saga and the only thing that is critical now is the end date, the date of the split. --Red King 17:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

You'll see that I changed some of what you wrote to make the phrasing a little more NPOV. I suspect that this one is going to rumble on, so I'll dig out Kee and others to provide hard references. I think we need to quote more credible historians than an author of childrens' stories with a chip on her shoulder. --Red King 16:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Irish Volunteers - IRA

I originally put this question to Palmiro, who referred me to you. Do you know when exactly the Volunteers became the IRA?

Lapsed Pacifist 12:59, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

There was never a formal transformation of the IV to the IRA. I wanted to write something about this but am a little bit busy at the moment. I would say that the first emergence of the IRA was at the Volunteer Convention of October 1917, when the Irish Volunteers were formally re-organised after the Rising of 1916. A new leadership was formed, with Cathal Brugha elected as "chairman of the resident executive". There was an article on this on the internet which I came across recently but it seems to have since disappeared.

It's interesting to note that in the deliberations of Dáil Éireann from 1919 to 1922, the organisation was referred to in many ways, including the Army, the Army of the Republic, the Volunteers, the Irish Volunteers, the IRA, the Republican Army etc. --Damac 14:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

IRA Chiefs of Staff

Please remember to cite your sources for your List_of_IRA_Chiefs_of_Staff page. The data is really only useful if we know the sources.

Thanks for adding your sources --Ryano 14:10, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Ferg2k 07:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Category:Irish Republican Army

I merely reverted the changes done due to the current CFD discussion. By removing these categories it left the category empty, which gives a false impression of the category in the discussion. Although they are POV, their remaining there for a few days until the end of the CFD discussion will not hurt anything. I request that you replace them until the end of the CFD debate. I noted this on the CFD at the time of removal. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 14:01, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Sinn Fein

Why do you feel its ok to delete reference to Sinn Fein 'Kevin St' and Sinn Fein 'Gardiner Place' which were the names used offically by these groups, yet at the same time include Official Sinn Fein and Provisional Sinn Fein within the article when these were only nicknames attached to these groups by the media and were never offically used by either group.--Padraig3uk 09:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The two parties even used the street name additions very reluctantly. The Kevin/Gardiner names were only really around in the early 1970s, by the late 1970s Ruairí Ó Brádaigh for example was always referred to as the President of Provisional Sinn Féin. He may not have liked that but that is how 99 percent of the media and any worthwhile book on the topic referred to him and his party. The same applied for the OSF.

Using Kevin/Gardiner Street does not help those with no knowledge of Irish republicanism to see what the relationship was between each wing of Sinn Féin and each wing of the IRA. Using Official/Provisional helps considerable on that front.

Misplaced Pages is not about presenting organisations as they see/saw themselves. We are offering a NPOV.--Damac 09:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Iam not saying that reference to the terms provisional and offical shouldn't be used, but they should be acknowledged as what they are as purely media terms used by the media and given to the two groups by the media, The Kevin Street and Gardiner Place tags were adopted by the two groups themselves and used by them on publications, posters, press releases etc.

Also as the Sinn Fein article is mainly about the party led by Gerry Adams is it necessary to have the 'From "Official Sinn Féin" to Democratic Left' section as this really belongs in the the 'official Sinn Fein/Gardiner Place/Workers Party' article rather then here. Would it not be better to have a History of Sinn Fein sub-article where all the history of the various splits etc could be explained in detail and then enable the current article to be used only in reference to the Sinn Fein party led by Gerry Adams.--Padraig3uk 09:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Town Councils in the Republic of Ireland

Damac - Táim díreach tar éis do theachtaireacht a leamh... Dúrais: I suggest that if you want this to remain a list of towns which had urban countil status, you change the heading from "List of Town Councils in the Republic of Ireland" to "List of Towns with Town Councils in Ireland". Bhuel, ta se déanta ag duine éile idir an dá linn!
B'fhearr liomsa "List of Local Government Towns in Republic of Ireland". Cad a cheapais féin? Lozleader 20:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I would value your opinion on this

The recent behavior of User:Blue sea along with my fruitful collaborating with a Turkish editor on some articles have made me think if there is a way to deal with all this mutual suspicion among Greek and Turkish wikipedians. So I came up with the idea of a wikiProject where Greek and Turkish wikipedians work together assumming good faith and trying to overcome the said suspicion. I have written a draft of a proposal. I would greatly appreciate it if you would read it and comment on it. Could it be done? Is there any point in trying? Does it brake any wikipedia anti-cabal rules? Thank you in advance! -- Michalis Famelis 03:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

WP:AFD

Hi, do you think we could get away with AfDing some (if not all) of these articles:

• List of Turkish genocides by Greeks
• Turkish Genocide by Greeks in the Balkans

--Latinus (talk (el:)) 14:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ó Brádaigh and Ó Conaill, RSF

The leadership of Sinn Fein is elected each year from the votes forwarded by each cummain, just prior to the Ard Fheis, it became clear that both Ó Brádaigh and Ó Conaill had lost their places on the leadership, but before the results were announced to the Ard Fheis they were allowed to withdraw their names from the leadership contest, and resign, this was a face saving gesture on the part of the leadership.--Padraig3uk 03:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Istanbul Pogrom

Istanbul Pogrom TO BE RE-WRITTEN

I am afraid the user Damac is a lier as he is Greek and does have a Greek POV. This article is full of lies and propaganda and the usage of the word pogrom is used to incite racial hatred. peopel should not use Misplaced Pages for there own racial sensitivities. Misplaced Pages is not here for such hooliganism. Though as more Greeks inflitrate the international satge - such as tennis - even hooliganism will become prevalent there. I will do my own objective research on this issue and changes will be made. I take serious issue with many disputed events that are being recorded here as historical FACT. Or apart from "not being" a Greek is Damac a learned historian, too?

I will also bring forth reasons for the riots, which are not made clear, such as retaliations for the Greek governmental perscution of Thrace Turks, where they cannot praticse their religion, women kidnapped, raped and forced to change their names and religion .

Greece has been taken many time to the European court of human rights on this matter. I will prepare an article on these issues. It is time that the truth really was written.

I am sick to death when people hijack Misplaced Pages for their own bigotry and prejudices.

Enough is enough. 82.145.231.79 03:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Merhaba, User:82.145.231.79

First of all, I'm not Greek, but am from Ireland. Secondly, I am an historian and hold a Ph.D. in history. What are your qualifications?

There is nothing in that article that has not appeared in the Turkish press and there are a number of Turkish articles listed in the sources section.

For your information, I am researching the history of Ottoman mosques in Greece and think it is a disgrace how these buildings have been neglected by the Greek authorities.

Feel free to make any changes to the article in question as you see fit. I will review each one for its merits.

Best, --Damac 09:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Nothing you have "created" has appeared in any Turkish articles. The sources you have used are at best second-rate and you have copied and pasted to create an false impression of the riots. It just stinks of bigotry and nothing else. You fail to take in factor the events before and after and the reasons why the uprisings happened. You make it sound as though Turks just did it for fun. Half of the so-called "witness" stories are fabricated, forced by the Orthodox church upon certain people to badmouth the Turkish government. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Oh, by the way I am British, an assistant professor at Nottingham University. If you are so interested as you claim in the state of the mosques, I would be more concerned with the state of the people in Western Thrace. Or do you find Greek life more valuable?

I am sorry but people like you who try to calmly hijack Misplaced Pages for your bigoted aims frankly disgust me. Writing that it is a pogrom won't make it one or your absurdities any more real.

I find it laughable that you are getting all the Greeks you can to vote to rename it again. What will this prove? That you are right? Shall I do the same and gather all the Turkish people to vote on it, too? And begin a campaign to get every article of atrocities by the Greeks of Pomaks and Turks in Thrace to be called pogroms? 82.145.231.63 15:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've little credibility. If you looked through my edits, you'll see that I have contributed to articles on the minorities living in Greece, including the Turks of Thrace, the Chams, the Pomaks and others.

I seriously doubt your academic credentials.

I have no wish to debate at the level you have engaged in. You make one false personal attack on me after the other. I am using the proceedures outlined by Misplaced Pages to resolve this issue.--Damac 16:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

FYI φιλε damac - when someone moves an article, like User:Blue sea did, you cen revert it, unless any changes have been made to the original article. By editing the original "pogrom" page, you made it impossible for the Blue Sea's edit to be undone without admin intervention. I know that was not your intention, I'm just letting you know for future reference. Sysin 09:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

What you say is laughable. I have read your so-called contributions to these articles and then see how you write the article on the events arising in Istanbul. You put it out of context and not into the context of the events that were going on around the world at the time. I REPEAT AGAIN you have used unsubstantiated articles, accounts that were contaminated an dsimply not true, and teh reading of yoru article smacks of bigotry. I REPEAT AGAIN I WILL NOT LET THIS GO and I will make sure that Misplaced Pages is not used as a platform for people such as yourself - whatever mask of 'intelligence' you choose to hide under is of no consequence. Simply comparing your "contributions" to the deprived Islamic minorities of Greece and your "article" on the Istanbul riots is enough in my opinion to show where your true loyalitis lie - it is not with Misplaced Pages or to educate - but merely to vilify. I will take this further. 82.145.231.57 02:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

TRYING TO PUT THREATS ON MY TALK PAGE ARE USELESS. You know I have to tell all you Greeks that this type of persecution doesn't frighten me in the least. I am not as used to it say as the poor Turkish women of Thrace that has been continually raped and forced to have their identities changed in Greece simply to be able to get a job...talk about ASSIMILATION - Greeks know it all too well. Nothing you can do will make me cow down. I HAVE AS MATTER OF PRINCIPLE asked people who are favourable to my view to stay away - just to see how many Greeks nationalists would rear their ugly heads. Keep them coming folks - we like to know who you are. 82.145.231.77 23:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

User:LOVELLtheLIONHEART's Suggestions

I am making some suggestions for amendments to this article - and as such have not carried them out yet. After Damac's motives were questioned about the writing of this article (I added the title below to section off my talk) I suggest it is a relevant article - but needs amendments because it has been written in a subjective point of view (even if he says he has no axe to grind). He obviously has sympathies with certain groups - which is natural - if you check his user page.

1. Firstly it should be made clear on the article that that not only its neutrality but its facts are disputed too - so I would add totallydisputed in place of NPOV.

2. Secondly I would add as a note on the article that word pogrom was used as a concious decision by the writer himself (even though this seemingly goes against using wikipeadia as an original source in that he is putting his own slant on his research - yes the definition Misplaced Pages holds of a pogrom might with argument catch this in its net - but what do all the sources say) and that both Greek sources and Turkish sources and English ones for that matter do not use the word pogrom. We must not forget that this article might be used by people as verifiable sources - so merely adding the reason in a talk page is not sufficent in my opinon.

3. Thirdly it has to be put in historical context, that goverment of 1955 was close to fascisim in the sense that Arabic was also outlawed and that the religion was trying to be reformed - with the "call to prayer" in mosques sung in Turkish. But the government was a response BY THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED THEM IN to international events around them - and one can also assume that Greek provocation from Athens (as in Cyprus) was rife. What was Athens situation like in 1955?

4. Fourthly, both sides of the events must be told. Unfounded accusations have been made against the Orthodox Church I feel, and these need to be cleared up.

5. Fifth point - Using Mehemt Ali Birand's article as a "source" for everything said above is obviously misleading when M.A Birand does not mention any deaths or casualities. I believe in Damac's good intention in that he did not intendingly mislead. I think it just shows that he came to this article he wanted to create with a certain point of view and just found evidence to back it up. I am going to guess (and forgive me if I am wrong) but he probably didnt't even read M.A. Brand's article and just thought the initial paragraph was enough - if you follow the link you'll see that you have to be a member to read the full article.

But once these are cleared up this could become a strong article to help inform and educate bothsides. 82.145.231.132 11:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind coming out of the woodword and revealing who you are. I don't engage in discussion with persons anon.--Damac 13:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a username. Do I need to get one for you to talk wıth me on this matter? I want to make these changes but am dicussing first? Or do you want my real name? Do you need an email contact? Please let me know. 82.145.231.132 23:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed you've added me as a sock puppet for Blue Sea? Can I ask what led you to this conclusion? 82.145.231.132 23:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like you to register with Wikpedia. No, you do not have to use your real name or provide your email address for public view. You are currently posting as an anonymous user which makes it difficult for other Wikipedians to see what you have been up to on Misplaced Pages.

You are User:Blue sea. All the evidence points to it. If you look at User_talk:Blue_sea, you'll note that on January 25, User:Blue sea, User:Steven Banks and User:82.145.231.79 posted on the same topics consultatively.

In addition, do you not see a resemblance between the following ISPs?

• User:82.145.231.45
• User:82.145.231.57
• User:82.145.231.63
• User:82.145.231.77
• User:82.145.231.79
• User:82.145.231.132

This involves someone accessing the internet from the same internet provider and using the same internet account. According to Misplaced Pages rules, you should be banned.

We're not idiots on Misplaced Pages, User:Blue sea!--Damac 09:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not the user Blue Sea and if this is the way you write your articles and try and prove your points my discussion stands that amendments should be made to yoru article. I could come from the smae area and same provider as Blue Sea - I do not know. Though I did ring up my internet provider and you are incorrect on one score. It does not have to be the same Internet account. But I didnt want to register until I had tried out Misplaced Pages is all. You accusations are unbiased - though I don't blame you taking into account the recent attacks on you personally. I have checked all the sockpuppets you mention and it seems that Blue Sea is clever enough to change his IP completely at some intervals? Why are not then all the sockpuppets you have listed the same? Check one that begins with 200. Is it not possible that Blue Sea is using false IP's or something and you really doN't know his IP? Else how could they be varied? However, my suggestion still stand and I do want this discussed. Please don't avoid the issues I have raised. If you continue to block debate then I don't see how this is going to be resolved. In my other two posts I just copied and past my other post's signature. I will not do so this time. 82.145.231.200 12:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I'm not going to waste my time debating with people who couldn't be bothered to take the one minute it takes to register with Misplaced Pages. By all means check out Misplaced Pages and see what it is all about. Once you've made up your mind on whether you want to join, then get back to me. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

I believe I am right on the ISPs. I've had similar problems with Irish nationalists. Maybe I got it wrong with the 200 ISP, but what about the others?

Do what everyone else does and sign up. It only takes a few seconds. --Damac 14:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice Damac. I've signed up and I will continue this on the talk page of the relevant article. LOVELLtheLIONHEART 18:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Damac and others are Hijacking Misplaced Pages and Abusing Powers to promote a Greek POV all across any Turkish related articles

• Other perpertrators and vandals include (and yes administrators can be vandals too with secret agendas)
• Sysin and as User:Globo
• Delirium
• Latinus et al
• Michalis Famelis

All these 'people' have their dirty fingers in tankering with any Turkish related articles tryng to create a racially motivated bias against Turks. And getting such a biased and incorrect and inconclusive article as the Istanbul pogrom as a feature article at Misplaced Pages merely proves how many of these people there are hijacking Misplaced Pages.

Here is Latinus asking Damac at his talk page whether they could "get away" with deleting some pro-Turkish sites.

Sysin has attempted to change the articles on Greek genocides agains Western Thrace minorities.

Globo likes to reword Turkish genocide by Greeks as uprisings - but when Istanbul pogrom is written it becomes a featured article.

Michalis pretends to be so moderate, when he is acting as their voice of reason - in a good cop bad cop routine. He actually defending Damac when his "research" on the pogrom and his usage of a Turkish source was actually MISREPRESENTED AND FALSE. Talk:Istanbul_Pogrom

These people and their contribitions should be checked and observed closely. 62.177.208.126 21:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't usually respond to these kind of attacks, but I would like to point out that

• a) I am not Greek
• b) I am not involved in the "tankering" of Turkish-related articles to create racial bias.

I'd also like to point out that User:Blue sea's contributions need to be checked. Take for example his The Chios Massacre, which he created on 25 January using his sockpuppet User:Steven Banks and which he redirected to Chios three days later using an anonymous sockpuppet. Why? In his original article he claimed that the Chios Massacre involved thousands of Turkish victims, which is, simply, completely in contradiction of historical fact.

I did not respond to Latinus' request to have the articles on the massacres of Turks in Greece deleted because I believe and know that massacres took place. In fact, I have been planning to write about these incidents.

User:Blue sea, you'll get no where if you continue to engage in personal attacks and to write sloppy articles. You are your and your causes own worst enemy!--Damac 11:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Then surely this proves the agenda of Latinus and that there are ADMINISTRATORS actually defending filth like him. Now people should realise why I have lost faith in Misplaced Pages - people who dress up lies that sound like truth and walk the line and do things in the rules cam just about write what they want - and once on Misplaced Pages they are creating their own history for ulterior motives. My second posting for listing these users was initially because of Latinus' request to have these articles speedily deleted. Blue sea 23:42, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Damac

I'll keep my English plain and simple so that you can understand it this time Damac.

1. You keep saying how you have Turkish friends and keep quoting little Turkish phrases at me - and it reminds me of that saying "I am not racist I have may black friends."

2. Secondly I am not embarrassed by anything. I actually first wanted that list to encompass all the so called genocides to show that it wasn't some Empire going to different regions of its lands and killing races for the fun of it it was quelling uprisings at a time when people were wanting their independence - because I believe their is a difference between putting down uprisings as genocide and labelling (as you did) a event in the 1950's as a pogrom which obviously tries to hark back to the Jewish pogroms in Eastern Europe and Russia. The context that happened in was a time when that government - fascist or no - was the first governement of Turkey to be actually democratically voted in. You use a language and events which are disputed, and yet you say it is NPOV. I disagree. Doesn't matter how many times you say "hello" or "good evening" to me in Turkish. I had more problem with the word pogrom and with some of the supposed events that took place.

3. That went in by accident and the minute I realisd this I re-directed it to the Chios article.

4. Yes I am foul mouthed and angry - because I've had enough. So you are Catholic - that's fine - and I do not profess anything - the history around me shows how thanks to the Catholic religion Orthodxy almost went extinct and most Greeks see the Pontif as the devil himself - Greeks told me this as hey guess what I have many Greek friends, too - even if I do call the ones in here idiots.

5. And yes I believe you should contribute to those articles to make up for what you did with the istanbul article. Unkowningly you have done a great mis-service there. And hey if the true object of building up your contributions list with improving those articles is to prove me wrong about your tinkerings with Turkish articles then still go for it. But I will be interested to see if you call these pogroms or geneocides or use words such as displacement and riots. After all it really all is in the inetpretation isn't it? Blue sea 05:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

1. I know what I am and what I'm not and I certainly don't have to prove it to the likes of you.

2. The 1955 Pogrom was not an act of genocide and I never said that. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word pogrom in any reputable English dictionary, Misplaced Pages or Wictionary and you will read that a pogrom is a campaign of violence orchestrated by a government against a minority. That is what happened in 1955. It was not an uprising - these are planned by groups against a government - nor was it a riot, which is a spontaneous outburst of violence against authority. To call what happened in Istanbul in 1955 the "September Uprising" or the "September Events" is so completely miss the significance altogether.

I'd also like to remind you that the head of the same democratically elected government was executed on the orders of a Turkish court.

3. Utter BS. A look at the editing history shows that your claim "That went in by accident and the minute I realisd this I re-directed it to the Chios article" is a lie:

04:07, 28 January 2006 82.145.231.45

09:16, 26 January 2006 Sysin (rv; vandalism)

05:00, 26 January 2006 82.145.231.57

18:08, 25 January 2006 Sysin (Setting the record straight.)

08:55, 25 January 2006 Blue sea

08:05, 25 January 2006 Steven Banks

You started the Chios Massacre article (claiming Turks were the victims) on 25 January. You then edited it using your own name. User:Sysin then corrected the article and you reverted it. After Sysin re-corrected the article, you blanked it and moved it to Chios. It has since been re-established as an article and now explains the truth about the incident. It's so ironic, but thanks to you there now is another article out there describing a massacre of Greeks by the Ottoman military. Are you now part of this Greek cabal?

4. I was baptised a Catholic, but like you, profess no faith.

5. I will contribute articles on the massacres of Turks and Muslims in Greece during the War of Independence out of service to Misplaced Pages and not to you. I owe you nothing. I will name the articles according to the information I find on these incidents - I'm certainly not going to make my mind up in advance and will research my articles throughly.--Damac 08:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Arvanite Alliance

I've never even heard of such a party! I read the article and it says it was formed in February 2006 which means it was formed in the last 15 days. I watch greek political (leftist) websites, such as the athens indymedia but not the merest mention of a new "anti-nationalism" movement has been made, and judging from the fact that any anti-nationalistic news is usualy quickly mentioned in such websites, I think this could be either a hoax, wishful thinking or a realy marginal party that was formed like yesterday by previously unheard of people. Apart from that the article is in need of a complete rewrite as it contains much nonsense, but I would hesitate to touch it at least not before I hear that such a party really exists. -- Michalis Famelis 11:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we'll just have to wait and see if the user provides any sources. If he doesn't in a few days time I think it would be sendible to nominate all three article for deletion:

1. The party is most probably fictional.
2. I've never heard of a distinct Arvanitic flag.
3. The image of the supposed flag is copyrighted and links nowhere...

Beautiful day today in Athens, isn't it? Long Live the Attic Sun! --Michalis Famelis 12:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello Damac, I hope everything is going ok for you. I think we can move on to AfDing these articles. It's been like a week and the original poster has not provided any sources. Googling "arvanite alliance" still doesn't pop anything up, so I think it must have been fiction. Anyway if there actually exists such a party, someone will eventually re-post the whole thing. AfD? --Michalis Famelis 00:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just noticed you two had been discussing this earlier. I've made both AfD's now, after the same user also tried to revert Arvanites and created a POV fork of it at Arvanit. Lukas 12:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ministry of Culture

Kalimera! From what I understand, during the Junta no parties existed formally, in the spirit that "all the Nation is united so no parties are needed". In the same time I don't think that there was any "Junta Party" so as to have an one party state. I think this is more close to the latin american juntas: no political parties, just a group of officers and a bureaucracy. Possibly, you could place them under a "Regime of the Colonels" allegiance; I think that would be the most accurate. I'll ask my father and tell you tomorrow for sure, though. Btw, it seems I'll have to award you a barnstar or something, you do an awful lot of work! --Michalis Famelis 11:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Election box templates (reply to question aksed long ago!)

Hi. I found the question you left at Template talk:Election box about a month ago, asking about how to get the election templates to work properly. In case you're still interested, what you need to do for a candidate whose party has metadata stored for it (like Independent Republican (Ireland)) is to use {{Election box candidate with party link}} for that candidate, and then in the "party" field, put (for instance) Independent Republican (Ireland) without the ]. I've just fixed Fermanagh and South Tyrone (UK Parliament constituency) in this way. --RFBailey 00:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Greek election results

Thank you for the piece of advice. I'm obsessed with greek politics and the greek history, in general, including the elections. Nevertheless, I face two major problems: a) lack of time, b) limited knowledge of the english language (my native language is greek).
I'll try to contribute as much as I can, because I regard the registration of all modern election results as something exciting and useful. --Yannismarou, 20 February 2006

Dioceses in Ireland

Hi Damac, I noted your request for comments on the Irish Wikipedians' notice board regarding dioceses in Irland. I am active in this regard as well at the German language edition of the Misplaced Pages, see for example de:Liste der Erzbischöfe von Armagh. In my opinion, it is most reasonable to include both post-reformation lists, i.e. Roman-catholic bishops and bishops of the Church of Ireland, in one article for two reasons:

• Both office holders see themselves as successor of the pre-reformation bishops. This means that if we would split the lists into two articles, we would either get some redundancy by having the pre-reformation bishops in both articles or we would violate the NPOV if we restrict one of the two articles to the post-reformation bishops.
• In the early post-reformation time, things get rather complex as quite a number of bishops are acknowledged by the Church of Ireland and the Roman-catholic church at the same time. In these cases, the bishops had surrendered their bulls of provision as required but they were also quick to assure their loyalty to the pope. And the interregnum of Mary adds to the problem.

The real challenge, however, regarding the lists of Irish bishops is not this problem but the trouble of obtaining correct lists for early medieval times, i.e. the time before the synode of Rath Breasail in 1111. The lists that are to be found on other web pages are (as far as I have seen) entirely unreliable. This means that each of these lists require quite some research of scientific papers, all the annals and other primary sources. Best regards, AFBorchert 19:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Athinganoi

Hi Danac. The small bits I know about these 'Athinganoi' come from here and there. Quite funny, they seem to be associated with the Cathar heressy. What is the official Greek stance on them? Or are they just hidden under the carpet (a la greque)?

'The ascent of Islam and the collapse of the Persian and Byzantine empires pushed various oriental ethnic groups into Europe, among these were the Roma/Gypsies. They drew their different names from the people that they came into contact with, names such as "Arami" (Armenians, pagans), "Faraontseg" (crowd), "Bohemians" (from Bohemia), "Tartars", "Gypsies" (Egyptians), "Saracens" (Arabs), "Athinganoi" (Tziganes). This last name derived from "Cingar", a hypothetical Hindo-Aric population, and afterwards took the meaning of "pagan", "untouchable", relating to the Athinganoi heresy of Cathar origin, historically it defined the Roma ethnic community. The ethnonym "Roma" (from the Greek term "Rhomaios", denomination for the inhabitants of the Roman Empire and for the Christians of Byzance until the collapse of the Empire) used with "Sinto" (the Roma from the Germanic area) and "Kalo" (the Roma from the Hispanic region) defines a transfrontier ethnic community with its own language and culture' Apostolos Margaritis 12:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Ouch..Some Irishmen are having a rough time in Greece right now

Some Irishmen have a rough time in the Greek paradise

Irishman gets 5 years for 4 tons of drugs A Piraeus court sentenced an Irish man to five years’ imprisonment yesterday in connection to the attempted smuggling of 4 tons of cannabis into Greece in 1997.

The court convicted Tommy Savage, aged 55, on charges of criminal involvement in the attempt to smuggle the cannabis into Greece from the Netherlands, where he had been living for the last 16 years.

He was extradited to Greece in September last year.

Police sources said that Savage is believed to be the mastermind of the 1997 operation but could only be tried as an accomplice due to lack of evidence.

Savage, who has been convicted of armed robbery in the Republic of Ireland, had alleged links to the Irish National Liberation Army, or INLA, a hardline paramilitary Republican movement.

Savage said he would appeal the verdict.Apostolos Margaritis 12:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Poor Paddy! and all this just before St. Patrick's Day. I have to sent him a pint of Guiness over in KorydalosApostolos Margaritis 12:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

People convicted for such offences face similar if not tougher sentences in other countries. It has nothing to do with Greece being a paradise or not.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. I'm aware of the story and the person in question. I'd also remind you that depending on who says it and in what context, the term Paddy is pejorative and disparaging term. As I don't know you from Adam and am not going to make any lazy assumptions as to where you're from, I take this to be an insult and request an apology.--Damac 13:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

IRA page

Hi, I hope you don't object to my moving the IRA and the treaty to its own article. The reason was that the IRA article was far too big as it was. I was also very dissatisfied with the content of the early part of the article, which I have also edited considerably. Perhaps you would like to look over the changes? Jdorney 20:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

No, not at all. I'm glad that someone is showing dedicated interest in improving the articles on Irish republicanism in general and that we're moving away from the FearÉireann Prinz Joachim school of new historical myth. I had more time for this in the past but am somewhat busy with other things on Misplaced Pages these days.

You might have noticed that I moved some of the pages, replacing hyphens with en-dashes. It might seem a minor issue, but hyphens (-) are used to link words and people's names. En-dashes (–), however, are used to suggest a time span, or a distance (the Dublin–Galway road), etc. You'll find more info on this at Dash. --Damac 22:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I admit I wasn't aware of the distinction before now. The only problem with the move is that all the links and some double re-directs go to the hyphenated pages. Thus the "what links here" page is much smaller than it should be. Out of curiousity, how would one write an en dash as opposed to a hyphen?

Re the IRA pages, I felt that the earlier ones were somewhat selective in the information included. I wouldn't describe myself as Republican but there are NPOV issues with only telling the Free State/1980s revisionist version of events. The problem now is that all the IRA pages except the ones for the newer dissident groups are too big and are spawning daughter articles, some of which are themselves too big now!

All the best, Jdorney 23:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Reality check for Damac

I don't want to sound again offensive to ultra-sensitive ears (BTW there is an Irish Whiskey brand called 'Paddy' officially registred as such and which can be bought here in London from Waitrose if I'm not wrong, see posting below) but I disliked the way you vandalized my contributions to the article about the religious minorities in Greece. There's something grotesque about you expats living in Greece, trying to curry favour with the host nation by forever showing off and proving that you are on 'their' side (shared prejudices included). But then, you live in Greece and IT starts to show. Slowly and surely, simply living there makes one sink. To live in such a country inevitably renders you onto a brainwashed creature. It's just a matter of time. Your country of adoption is, in my humble opinion by far the least civilized country in Europe. Despite the mild climate, it's a very very tough place to live in. I'm not envying you really.

KATHIMERINI English Edition_Greeks do not accept migrants

KATHIMERINI English Edition

Greeks do not accept migrants

On the occasion of International Migrants Day this past Saturday, Interior Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos said Greeks feel a “heightened sensitivity” toward immigrants and their problems — even though recent data indicates Greeks are the most xenophobic in the European Union.

“Greeks feel this duty (toward migrants) more... because we have lived migration from every point of view,” Pavlopoulos said.

However, the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) recently released a survey indicating that Greece views immigration the most negatively of all 25 member-states.Additionally, 84.7 percent of Greeks see migrants as a social threat, while Czechs came in second place with 75 percent.

The data, presented to the European Parliament, highlights gaps in the education system and the negative role the media plays, experts say.

“Even for the most objective observer, the messages are negative and extremely worrying,” sociologist and criminologist Angeliki Halkia told Sunday’s Kathimerini. Apostolos Margaritis 11:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Paddy's Irish Whiskey

I hope you don't find this insulting Danac Apostolos Margaritis 11:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hyphens and dashes

Thanks for the note, but I really prefer using simple keyboard characters wherever possible, and the MoS states "A single spaced hyphen - like this. This is considered an en dash rendered in the same "typewriter" style as the double hyphen for em dashes, above" is an acceptable alternative to an en dash. However, I've got no objection if you wish to change them. Warofdreams talk 00:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Ó Brádaigh, Ruairí.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Ó Brádaigh, Ruairí.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Shyam 19:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Irish man convicted in Greece

Dear Sir, I've known this man in person, and as far as I aknowledge, he is a fine gentleman. I would appreciate any further information on how to contact him or anyone close to him or even up-to-date information on his case. Yours

How can I contact you?--Damac 08:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Gr-Tr board

Hello! Are you still interested in the Greek and Turkish wikipedians board of cooperation? I think we have mustered enough people to get this started, but since it's been quite some time, it would be nice to have a confirmation by the people who have shown interest, before going official. Please leave a note (affrimative or negative) in the proposed project talk page. --Michalis Famelis 16:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

First National Assembly of Greece

The "Provisional Regime of Greece" (Προσωρινό Πολίτευμα της Ελλάδος) and the Temporary Constitution of Greece (Constitution of 1822) are exactly the same thing. Maybe we should take care of that.
Dimitrios Ypsilantis participated in the First Assembly and that's how he became president of the legislature. Alexandros Ypsilantis did not participate, because after his defeat in Romania he was very depressed and disappointed. Yannismarou 10:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they are the same thing. The Assembly was a gathering which met from December to January. The Consitution was a document passed by the Assembly on one of the day's that it sat. Saying that they are the same thing would be like saying that the present contitution of Greece is the same as the parliament which passed it. There is a distinction.--Damac 11:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

You missed my point. I do not say that the Assembly is the same thing with the Constitution. It is not and you did very well creating a new article. What I say is that the "Provisional Regime of Greece" (Προσωρινό Πολίτευμα της Ελλάδος) is another name for the Temporary Constitution of Greece (Constitution of 1822). To be more specific:
One thing: The National Assembly
Another thing: the "Provisional Regime of Greece" (Προσωρινό Πολίτευμα της Ελλάδος)= the Temporary Constitution of Greece (Constitution of 1822), adopted by the National Assembly.
If you see the present structure of the article you created and compare it with my remarks, I think you'll understand what I mean. Yannismarou 15:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I completely misread your comment. My apologies. My Greek isn't great and I appreciate your advice.

We should explain in each article that the official name in Greek is Προσωρινό Πολίτευμα της Ελλάδος or Provisional Regime of Greece. (Is this is the most literal translation?)

This pattern should be continued for the remaining articles. I saw somewhere that the 1823 version was officially known as the Law of Epidaurus and the Fifth National Assembly of Troezen adapted the Political Constitution of Greece which was the same name used for the 1832 Constitution.--Damac 08:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Subcategories of category:British MPs

I believe the argument you put forward for opposing a merger is irrelevant as Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Irish constituencies (1801-1922) was left out of the nomination and you may not have been aware of this. Categorising modern MPs by location of constituency does not reflect the reality of the political system in which party affinity is the primary division. Could you please reconsider your vote? Bhoeble 14:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

CFD discussion: new subcategories to Category:British MPs

If you would like your vote at the CFD debate to be considered, could you please go back and sign your latest contribution, at:

• Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion#Category:British_MPs

Ta. --Mais oui! 14:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The King of Britain & Seán Russell

You edited out the quote I put in from Enno Stephan for article Seán Russell.

I quoted Stephan directly and cited it. All because you edited the piece to read "King of Britain" instead of "King of England". "King of Britain" is a phrase I have never encountered before- can you explain what you were thinking when you decided to edit the article to that state?

To my mind, your edit made no sense- thats why I corrected it by quoting the historian who brought the "Russell Case" episode to my attention. Then you edited the entire quote out and made the article read simply "king", a word which isn't specific, or in the context of the piece.

Your blunderings through this article has generated work for me. Time spent and effort wasted. If you feel that itch to edit again, please seek a 2nd opinion before making a change, or better yet, follow the wikipedia guidelines- state your objections on the discussion page of the article before making the change. This process is laid down by wikipedia to put the onus on YOU to explain a phrase like "King of Britain" before visitors get to see it live.

Fluffy999 18:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Damac The Blunderer strikes again

You inserted inaccurate information overwriting an accurate contribution I made. The rearranging you did now makes the article factually incorrect.

The IRA army council did not issue a statement via the Wolfe Tone Weekly- Sean Russell did. Cite a source for that change because I can cite one saying the statement was signed by him, not the Army Council and not on behalf of the Army Council.

You also stripped out the entire context of what happened and link to Irish Republic claiming the people mentioned, all die hard anti-treaty, would recognise it. This was in December 1938, if they didn't recognise what was in effect a 26 county Republic in 1938. What makes you think they would recognise it in 2006?

And guess what? They transferred their authority, not "their powers" as you claim. Cite a source. And before you ask; No, "powers" in the context of Government doesn't equal "authority".

My contribution explains their motivation, and actions all in 1 sentence. Instead, as you blundered through, you replace it with longwinded TRIPE which is inaccurate, distorting, and near unreadable.

I'll change it back again tomorrow. PhD in History *LOL* (unsigned: 03:20, 1 May 2006 User:Fluffy999)

Please see Talk:S-Plan for my response.--Damac 09:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)