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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Hearfourmewesique

Factocop

Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Tijfo098 (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

• Paul Magnussen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sirswindon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• InigmaMan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm filing this as a single request because there is little difference in their behavior and position. In some cases, one editor deletes content and another from this group then presents long argumentation in support of deletion on the talk page.

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

R&I discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

The case comes down to removal of material cited from secondary, academic sources, followed by long diatribes posted on the talk page which seldom address any particular content, except in their arbitrary conclusion(s). I invite admin to read the whole talk page, but here are some examples:

User:Paul Magnussen:

1. block-delete with edit summary "Removing unreferenced POV material" (which was not unreferenced) supported by the following line of argumentation:
2. Furthermore, the terms "extreme right" and "extreme left" have become so confused and emotionally loaded and to become effectively meaningless.
3. 'Right' (in this sense) is a POV term, now reduced to little more than a term of abuse
4. his politics are irrelevant as what he had for breakfast
5. I haven't noticed you leaping up and down about Leon Kamin or Stephen Jay Gould, whose politics apparently did dictate their science…
6. Supposing that your characterisation of these publications is correct and that Prof. Eysenck did actually write for them (as opposed to allowing publication of previously-written material), have you considered the possibility that he would write for anyone who paid his fee? Apparently not.
7. What would you say the are characteristics of the Extreme Right? Beating up the opposition, refusing to allow them to speak, threatening their children?
8. His scientific views are not in dispute. All that's been produced on his political views is name-calling and unsupported inference.
9. calling anyone "right-wing" is POV ipso facto.
10. You said (above) that we don't define terms. Could you tell me where to find the definitions we're using for "far right" and/or "extreme right"? They seem to me to be weasel words — specifically, just vague terms of abuse.
11. Another removal of content, presumably explained by:
12. 6Kb of text. Apparently, the argument is that although Eysenck has written several books about the genetics-intelligence link, we can't exemplify or discuss their content in his biography, even when secondary sources do that. Go figure. This long post also appears to be written with the intent to support the deletion of material performed by Sirswindon in diff #8 below.

User:Sirswindon:

1. Deletion of material based on secondary sources as "hearsay"
2. repeat
3. claims the ref fails WP:V Text in original (German) is "In der April-Ausgabe der rechtsextremen Nationalzeitung von 1990 schreibt Eysenck einen Artikel, in dem er Sigmund Freud der Verschlagenheit und mangelnder Aufrichtigkeit zeiht, wobei zugleich auf Freuds jüdische Herkunft verwiesen wird."
4. Pure denialism or more sophistry? You decide. Perhaps the author-publisher relationship is not a relationship.
5. Appeals to Misplaced Pages definition of right-wing, just like the SPA InigmaMan (see its own section below).
6. False dichotomy: "All or None".
7. Advances his own prophecy.
8. Deletes content claiming it's not in the source. Quote given here. Offered chance to self-revert there too. Not taken insofar.

User:InigmaMan (a WP:SPA):

1. "Eysenck did not publish articles, the newspaper published them"
2. Red herring. The article at the time did no say Eysenck was Far-right. It said "He wrote the preface to the book "Das unvergängliche Erbe" by Pierre Krebs, a far-right French writer, which was published by Krebs' Thule-Seminar."
3. Quotes the Misplaced Pages article on far-right as an WP:OR argument to disprove what the sources said.
4. Continues the same argument.

-- Tijfo098 (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

And Sirswindon continues:

1. deletes the passage again
2. explained by my IQ somehow?

-- Tijfo098 (talk) 01:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Statement by Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Paul Magnussen

Not much to add. I'm fairly familiar with Eysenck's work. I've tried to keep the article in line with Misplaced Pages principles, notably Reliable Sources and no POV material. Distortions of fact and name-calling are (it seems to me) not Reliable.

As secondary objective, I've also tried to keep the article balanced and to an appropriate size.

Of course, I'm not saying I haven't made any mistakes, although I've tried not to. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I should also add that I am not a sock-puppet: this is my real name, and I can provide evidence of this should it be required. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Question

Please can someone explain why what was put in the article about Freud relates to the subject of this section of the article: In the National Zeitung he reproached Sigmund Freud for alleged trickiness and lack of frankness by reference to Freud's Jewish background. -- Sirswindon (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2012

Comments by others about the request concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

It's a question of neat sourceswork. First the sources been doubt. Some of the sources I presented were in german. It's okay for me to doubt them. But they don't even doubted the german sources. They claimed all sources estimated Eysenck as far-right supporter, and there are several sources how do that, are not reliable. A reproach beyond good and evil. When other authors supported the sources they begin to downplay the statements of the sources. The peak of this activities was to change the heading from "Alleged relationships with far right groups" to "Relationship with right-wing groups". A description was not supported by only one single source. The argumentation is nothing but sophistry. If you really want to understand theirs procedure, you have to read the hole talk-page. It begins with the blanket denying of ALL sources to admire in archive of the talk-page. And ends with the downplaying of statements of these and other sources.

My favorite counterargument is: "I personally knew Eysenck for over 40 years," (but never take notic that he supported far-right groups), by user sirswindon.

The several sources make a clear statement about Eysenck and the far-right. Of course you can dabate specific statements in the text of the article. But you can't debate the essence of the sources. That's the point a POV-War begins and the balance of our article is endangered. Especially in this issue (race & intelligence).

Of course it's possible to have a debatte for the next years till one side showes signs of fatigue or give up. But it would be better to have a serious discussion about facts and not about (I personally know Eysenck for 40 y. and I know better than those socialist sources) fiction. It's possible to have a sources-based discussion. If anybody wants to. --WSC 06:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Appeal against thread hijacking. I understand there is a dispute on another R&I article, but it doesn't seem to (currently) involve any of the editors involved in the Eysenck article (unless someone has discovered who InigmaMan is, but I haven't seen that above). I suggest that a different report be filed about the YvelinesFrance, Zeromus1 and The Devil's Advocate issue. Thanks. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That seems fair enough. The Devil's Advocate did not like my parenthetic remark. Mathsci (talk) 10:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• At the moment I don't see anything that AE should do. InigmaMan is an SPA and might be a sock, but has not edited Misplaced Pages since 2 October. On 15 October there was almost an edit war between Tjfo098 and Sirswindon regarding inclusion of a quote from Barnett, but that now seems to have quiesced. I was expecting to see a terrible article that was full of charges and countercharges, given the tendency of R&I matters to unhinge people's judgment. But now that I actually look at the Hans Eysenck article I feel it is reasonably balanced. It gives a fair hearing to some views of Eysenck that appear to be out of the mainstream. I suggest that this AE request be closed with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
• Is there an SPI report? T. Canens (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'm withdrawing my opinion that InigmaMan could be a sock, after reviewing his contributions. The net effect of InigmaMan seemed to be to make the article slightly more balanced. Our readers can still make up their own minds whether to condemn Eysenck for the company that he kept. It's not unheard of for someone to be so convinced of their own rectitude that they don't care how something looks to others. (E.g. Eysenck secretly taking funds from tobacco companies: "As long as somebody pays for the research I don't care who it is.") Those who believe that Eysenck held far-right political views would be on safer ground if they can quote him expressing such views. His strong opposition to Nazism is hard to reconcile with some of the criticism. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

User making enforcement request

• Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Users against whom sanctions are being requested

• Zeromus1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

recently enacted WP:ARBR&I motion concerning enabling edits by banned editors () as well as the remedies of the recent review that refer to TrevelyanL85A2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Trolling IP socks of Echigo mole blocked at WP:SPI
2. The Devil's Advocate declares people should chat to TrevelyanL85A2
3. Zeromus1's reaction to Echigo mole's trolling
4. Zeromus1 decides he can enable the trolling even after being told it's a malicious wikihounder and that I am recovering from open heart surgery
5. Zeromus1 refers to Echigo mole as "someone commenting in his user talk space" knowing full well this is the banned editor Echigo mole. He invites The Devil's Advocate to join him in an RfC/U on me. He knows I am acutely ill.
6. The Devil's Advocate himself threatens to open an RfC/U on me on behalf of the AE banned editor TrevelyanL85A2, having received an email from TrevelyanL85A2 requesting that he do so following TrevelyanL85A2's block.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. One of several warnings to Zeromus1
2. The Devil's Advocate has been warned on multiple occasions by arbitrators and senior adminitrstaors about his conduct vis-a-vis TrevelyanL85A2 and Echigo mole. He has ignored all those warnings. Here is a latest example from User talk:MastCell.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Comment TDA has claimed that TrevelyanL85A2's arbcom sanctions and his AE block are due to me rather than the conduct of TrevelyanL85A2 himself. Statements like that, which have now degenerated to rants, are in direct contradiction to decisions first of arbitrators and then of administrators at AE. Since TDA has been continuing to make statements of this kind for close on three months, even after warnings, why should he be surprised in any way at all that there should now be consequences? Mathsci (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Further comment Here is some additional off-wiki chronology which might place The Devil's Advocate's "popping up" in a more realistic context than the one he has suggested. Sept 28, nocturnal pains later diagnosed as heart attack. Sept 29, 30 repetition of the same. Oct 1 advised by nurse friend to go immediately to A&E ward of UCL. Oct 2 admitted and not permitted to leave hospital because of severe heart condition and high blood pressure. Oct 4 echocardiagram. Oct 5 angiogram at Heart Hospital. Oct 8 triple bypass operation. Oct 13 discharged to convalesce. Oct 15 receive hate mail through wikipedia mailing system, apparently from DeviantArt group or other disgruntled editors, threatening to make my real life a misery. Mathsci (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

Statement by Zeromus1

I haven't restored any edits by Echigo Mole, and in the fourth diff linked to by Mathsci, I said that I'm not going to. I haven't violated the restriction, and I don't intend to violate it. One thing I find strange is that a few minutes before he made this report, Mathsci edited the restriction in question to change what it links to. His edit is here. He seems to have edited the arbitration ruling just to make it easier to accuse us of violating it.

I am troubled by the lengths Mathsci goes to to pursue editors who have opposed him on R&I articles, even after they have disengaged from the topic, because he's given a lot of indications I'll soon be subject to this myself. I don't see what his heart condition has to do with that.

If Mathsci is concerned about the effects of Misplaced Pages on his health, I think an important question is whether this report and his other recent activity really is what's best for him. If he's concerned about that, why doesn't he spend a few weeks away from Misplaced Pages while he recovers? He could go for a walk in the countryside, read a book, watch a movie, or all three. And if he can do those things without thinking about Misplaced Pages, I promise it'll make him feel a lot better than what he's currently doing. This page seems relevant. I'm sure that if I did something terrible while he's taking a break, someone else would report it, and someone else also would eventually block Echigo Mole's sockpuppets. I don't know what to make of his insistence that he needs to do all these things himself, except that maybe he cares too much about Misplaced Pages to do what seems like it would be best for him. Zeromus1 (talk) 07:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The restriction Mathsci is citing only applies to restoring reverted edits by banned editors connected to this topic area. I have restored no such edits, nor has Zeromus as far I as I know. Mathsci is completely misrepresenting the nature of that restriction. His characterization of my actions is likewise so obscenely distorted that it would take a voluminous amount of material to point out of every single error. Suffice to say, the cited diffs clearly do not say what he suggests they say and in a response on my own talk page I said I do not want to pursue an RfC/U at this time. This request is completely frivolous.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci you initiated all this recent discussion by going after me in an unrelated AE case directly above this one. You mentioned Zeromus there as well, so there is nothing inexplicable about this situation. All I did was rebut your accusations and ask you to stop hounding me.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

@T.Canens An interaction ban would just create pointless drama and sanction me without good cause. I think you should just close this with a warning to Mathsci about hounding. Anything else would just give this complaint far more credibility than it deserves.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

NW, I don't think anyone at the talk page for R&I will seriously suggest that my participation there has been disruptive and, in fact, we have been gradually working towards consensus on contentious wording. Mathsci is just going after me for the same old stuff he has been going after me for since I objected to his conduct towards Trevelyanl and suggested that he be admonished for it, not sanctioned as he says. No one gave his objections much attention despite him leaving a long screed about me on the request for amendment that I essentially ignored, going after me in three separate AE cases before this one, a completely unrelated WQA, and a BLPN discussion he initiated about another completely unrelated article that was again not taken seriously by any editor. For the past few weeks, following the request for amendment, I have completely left Mathsci alone and barely thought of the man. I only got sucked back into a dispute with Mathsci now because he tried to hijack an AE thread directly above to go after me, see the collapsed section in that request.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, that is not even close to a reasonable interpretation of my comments. I said that you have been going after me for objecting to your conduct towards Trev. During that AE case that got Trev blocked, one admin at AE called out your conduct as inappropriate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you guys really not seeing what Mathsci is doing? He pops up all of a sudden, weeks after we last interacted, to accuse me of tag-teaming and meat-puppetry in some parenthetical remark on another AE case that had nothing to with me because I somewhat agreed with a position some other editors took on a completely different article than the one being discussed at AE. When I asked him not to accuse me of such things without evidence he starts rambling about Trev and acting as if I should somehow know that one of the editors in the discussion said offensive things to some other person on some other matter. After I asked him to leave me alone and stop following me he retorts by repeating those claims, then claiming that I sought sanctions against him, when I did no such thing, and claiming I "misrepresented" his edits. After I challenged him on this claim of misrepresentation he made the bizarre accusation that I somehow was casting doubt on his health issues, when, again, I did no such thing. If you guys can honestly look over that discussion and conclude that I am provoking or harassing Mathsci, rather than the other way around, then I guess there is nothing I can do to convince any of you. He is just repeating the same attacks and claims that he made throughout the request for amendment and none of the Arbs or admins apparently saw any basis for taking action against me then, so I don't see how you can justify going after me over those same issues now.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, I am not sure what you want me to say, but I am certainly not trying to hurt you in any way. You chose to accuse me of tag-teaming and meat-puppetry while recovering from major surgery. I didn't force you to do that. All I did was ask you to leave me alone, but you aren't doing that and just forcing me to defend myself, which I don't even really like doing. Please just let this go, because it isn't doing anyone any good.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, you clearly know about all the notifications made by that IP, so why did you only choose to remove the comment on Cla68's page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

This is ridiculous. When Mathsci removes a harmless remark from may user talk page, which is against policy, then something needs to be done. Admins, if you're going to block The Devil's Advocate, then you need to block Mathsci also. His behavior has been as battleground as I've ever seen. Cla68 (talk) 09:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Uhm, no, not gonna happen. The whole point of all of this is exactly the confirmation of the principle that banned users' postings can and should be removed, no matter by whom, and that these removals should not be interfered with. This is what the committee has explicitly reaffirmed with its latest motion that we are asked to enforce here. That principle also includes user talk pages, and it applies to all such edits no matter how superficially "harmless" they may appear. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Give me a break. I have never had anyone remove a non-vandalism comment from my talk page in six years of participating in Misplaced Pages, and plenty of banned editors have apparently commented as IPs on my talk page. You know why? Because most editors know not to take this stuff too personally. When they do, and start removing harmless comments from other users talkpages, it's the definition of BATTLEGROUND. Cla68 (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The "harmless remark" Cla68 is referring to is one of a series of edits by three illegal tor nodes all operated by Echigo mole. Each of them has been blocked for 3 years. There have been two SPI reports on these tor nodes, one by me on October 16, when the first two were blocked, and the latest on October 20 by another editor. Because of the similarity in content and in tor nodes, the edits were all clearly made by the same person. One was a trolling and malicious rant, typical of Echigo mole: the other edits have to be seen within that context. The sockmaster is not an "innocent wikipedian", but a community banned wikihounder. The arbitration committee passed a motion about exactly these types of edits in this precise context, clarifying what WP:BAN means. By clicking on the link provided, Cla68 can read full details of that motion and refresh his memory. Mathsci (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, if that's the case, why didn't you wait for an admin to remove the remark, and here it is for the admins here to read and judge how harmful it is to Misplaced Pages, instead of removing it yourself? Seeking out a banned editor around people's user talk pages on Misplaced Pages, especially when the remarks are innocuous, is BATTLEGROUND behavior if I've ever seen it. Have you considered that you might be taking this stuff a little too personally and perhaps should step away from the topic for awhile? Cla68 (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Please read the motion again. Anybody can remove the edits and me in particular. As Roger Davies has patiently explained to you, Echigo mole has been wikihounding me in a malicious way for a prolonged period. Even if that is hard for you to understand, could you nevertheless please move on? Oh and please could you stop shouting "BATTLEGROUND"? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 12:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, I have been wikihounded before, and the way I handled it was by ignoring the guy. Banned editors post to WP as IPs all the time and are usually ignored if their edits are harmless, as in this case. I think the reason you are following this guy around and removing his edits, including by the extreme measure of removing them from other users talk pages, is because you want to win the battle. That's BATTLEGROUND defined. Cla68 (talk) 14:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately your own experiences, fascinating as they doubtless must be, are irrelevant here. Your wikihounder was not the principal community banned user Echigo mole for whom this motion was tailor-made. You've already had crystal-clear responses from FPaS and Roger Davies, which you have chosen to ignore. Again could you please stop shouting "BATTELFIELD"? It doesn't apply here and could result in you receiving a logged WP:ARBR&I warning as happened to Collect some weeks back under similar circumstances (another user nursing a grudge). Other socks of Echigo mole have been reverted in the meantime, e.g. by me on this page and by FPaS elsewhere. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 16:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

To clarify one thing: Mathsci, I'd actually grant Cla68 one point; removing such posts might not be the wisest thing to do on your part, in your own interest. Especially when, as in the case of a one-off notification post on a user talk page, the removal is of purely symbolic value – the notification has been given; for better or worse, it's been read by the recipient and can't be un-read, and removing it will often only draw more attention to it. That said, still, Mathsci is totally within his rights if he chooses to remove them, and reacting to such removals with yet more escalation and clamouring for counter-sanctions, as Cla68 did here, is just as inappropriate as restoring the postings would be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Has this IP actually been blocked, and, if so, could someone link to the SPI in which admins came to the decision to do so? Again, this is looking like two individuals (Mathsci and a banned user) using Misplaced Pages to engage in a battle of wills with each other. Not good. Cla68 (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Cla68 has been informed multiple times that the two anonymizing tor nodes have been blocked for 3 years and the open proxy for 6 months. The SPI investigations can be found at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole and its archives.

• 217.115.10.133 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 80.237.226.76 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 211.75.73.36 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Cla68's second phrase, "Again, this is looking like two individuals (Mathsci and a banned user) using Misplaced Pages to engage in a battle of wills with each other" seems a perverse way of discussing a community banned user and a user in good standing. The wikihounding by Echigo mole and his army of socks has been discussed in great detail in several places: during the WP:ARBR&I review; at WP:AN when the community ban was formalized; and during the subsequent amendment/motion archived at WT:ARBR&I. It has been dealt with by arbitrators since 2009, sometimes in private because of outing issues, occasionally involving account names if I remember correctly. At one stage Shell Kinney made a 3 month range block. By failing to recognize the wikihounding, Cla68's malicious commentary becomes a way of enabling Echigo mole within the context of WP:ARBR&I. Cla68 is presumably aware that the arbcom motion prohibits him from making remarks of that sort (suggesting for example that the wikihounding is my fault and I am no better than a community banned user, confirmed liar and serial sockmaster) and that his editing privileges are likely to be restricted if he continues doing so. Cla68 participated in the discussions leading up to the third motion, so is perfectly aware of the context. In any event, Roger Davies explained to him that using my street name in France as a username was one of the many different facets of the wikihounding. Mathsci (talk) 02:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This battle between you and him has been ongoing for three years and your current tactic in it is to scour editors' user talk pages to find his/her comments and remove them, even though the comments were innocuous? Like I said, Mathsci, in six+ years no one has ever seen it necessary to remove a non-vandalism edit from my user talk page. How do you expect this battle between you and him to end? Will you keep checking for edits from the IP range all over Misplaced Pages and unilaterally removing comments from users' talk pages? That's disruptive, and, based on my experience, ultimately futile. I suggest that you turn this over to WP's administration to handle and withdraw from the field of conflict. It's not about winning or losing, it's about improving the 'pedia. Cla68 (talk) 02:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, you obviously know about the other notifications left by the IP so can you please explain why you only saw fit to remove the notice on Cla68's page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:BAN. One of the others was removed by Future Perfect at Sunrise. There was no need for TDA to ask the same question twice or to attempt any kind of threaded discussion. On the advice of Future Perfect at Sunrise, Cla68 has now been added as an additional independent party who has also violated the arbitration committee motion and who is probably now liable for some kind of sanctions. See the section below. Mathsci (talk) 06:11, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, I asked why you only saw fit to remove the notice on Cla's page, as in, why did you not remove all of them? Future removed one of the other comments several hours after you removed the one on Cla's page. It would not have been difficult to remove the notices on the other two pages at the same time. Why did you just remove the comment on Cla's page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:BAN justifies the removal of content added by banned editors; however, it does not necessitate the removal. In the same way, with the latest named sockpuppet of Echigo mole, Spar-stangled (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), I did not revert his edit of Grunsky matrix although I removed his trolling comments on this page. Note that this page is not intended for threaded discussions or repeatedly asking the same question. Mathsci (talk) 06:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment on Cla68's statements by Mathsci

Cla68 has been warned twice during this AE request by Future Perfect at Sunrise about making statements that enable Echigo mole. He has also been informed directly by arbitrators when he has previously cast doubts on the wikihounding by this community banned user. Since he is now referring to wikihounding by a community banned user who lies and uses sockpuppets as a form of "battle" between two parties equally at fault—something no administrator or arbitrator has ever suggested—I am now suggesting that

Cla68 be sanctioned himself (a one week block) for taking provocative actions, even after multiple warnings, that enable a community banned user and that fly in the face of a recent arbitration committee motion and wikipedia policy.

On the advice of Future Perfect at Sunrise, I have transferred these comments here. (They previously formed a separate AE request.) Cla68 should be considered as an additional but independent party to this request. He has clearly gone out of his way, in an aggressive and cavalier manner, to violate the arbitration committee motion on this page.

An arbitration motion was passed in September 2012 concerning in particular wikihounding by the community banned user Echigo mole in the context of WP:ARBR&I. In what appears to have been an unprecedented act of aggression, Cla68 has sought to enable Echigo mole in this AE request. He has referred to the wikihounding, which affects my article editing in mathematocs, musics, art, matters French, etc, and in project space, as an equal "battle" between me and a large family of abusive sockpuppets of a lying and evasivee puppetmaster. Cla68 has persisted in this callous, obnoxious and wholly unwarranted interpretation, even after warnings. In so far as he has acquainted himself with the sockpuppetry issues (I believe he has not made the slightest effort whatsoever), he has chosen to ignore advice offered to him by arbitrators and administrators. He is fully aware that what he is doing is contrary to the (spirit of the) recently passed arbcom motion and is contrary to the views of the arbitration committee. In that respect he acing as a kind of self-appointed maverick with a score to settle, wrongs to be righted. He has chosen to conduct himself in this unduly aggressive and bullying way while I am acutely ill. He has bombarded this AE request with statements, none of which are supported by diffs, which represent his personal beliefs and come across as unfettered personal attacks. The wikihounding for him is some form of battle, where presumably Echigo mole is an innocent party. That perverse interpretation shows that Cla68's powers of judgement are impaired in this case and that his conduct has become severely compromised. He has been offered advice twice by Future Perfect at Sunrise, but, instead of heeding it, has gone on to make even more exaggerated and bigoted statements. Here is the latest example at the time this section was added. In it Cla68 scrapes the bottom of the barrel. It has apparently not occurred to Cla68 at any point that Echigo mole's wikihounding concerns drawerfuls of socks who have consistently lied. That is why Echigo mole/A.K.Nole was community banned. Cla68 has looked at one diff and proceeded to huff and puff. That huffing and puffing is, however, outside any wikipedia policy, in particular WP:BAN and the arbcom motion. I know Cla68 prides himself on having a non-scientific approach, but several thousands of abusive edits are involved, not just one, and some of them have been oversighted because of outing issues. He knows that he shouldn't use Echigo mole as a way of bullying me, yet that is exactly what he has been doing in the latest diff where he lets his perverse interpretation run wild. What Cla68 writes below is just an aggressive and obnoxious personal attack which disregards Echigo mole's banned status in a cavalier fashion:

This battle between you and him has been ongoing for three years and your current tactic in it is to scour editors' user talk pages to find his/her comments and remove them, even though the comments were innocuous? Like I said, Mathsci, in six+ years no one has ever seen it necessary to remove a non-vandalism edit from my user talk page. How do you expect this battle between you and him to end? Will you keep checking for edits from the IP range all over Misplaced Pages and unilaterally removing comments from users' talk pages? That's disruptive, and, based on my experience, ultimately futile. I suggest that you turn this over to WP's administration to handle and withdraw from the field of conflict. It's not about winning or losing, it's about improving the 'pedia. Cla68 (talk) 02:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea why Cla68 imagines that he is exempt from wikipedia policy and can blurt out any old nonsense. Mathsci (talk) 06:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

• comment - this exchange between me and Zerosum1 may be interesting -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
• This request (unfortunately) did not address any article-related edits of YvelinesFrance (some of which are troubling, see this exchange), but I agree that an interaction ban with Mathsci is indeed for the reason given by T. Canens. Tijfo098 (talk) 05:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
• All I can say is that I was baffled by the suggestion from The Devil's Advocate that the distinction between indefinitely blocked players and banned players was important enough to wikilawyer over: "Indefinite blocks are certainly a way to implement a ban, but Trev has not been banned. The restriction also does not prohibit interactions with such editors, only restoring their edits." aprock (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• Admins, I think you should examine the behavior of all the parties named in this request. Cla68 (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
• Insofar as it's relevant, I'd just like to say that for short period of time that I've participated on the R&I talk page The Devil's Advocate has provided a model of non-partisan engagement. He's perhaps the only participant whose opinion on the subject I haven't been able to transparently identify and by not foregrounding his POV he's been effective, I think, in building consensus. I've no particular opinion on this somewhat Byzantine process and the various infractions of policy that are purported to have occurred. However, the zeal with which certain matters are pursued by some editors, the discretionary powers held by this body and the potential for abuse, gives me pause about the wisdom of participating at all in the R&I and related articles. FiachraByrne (talk) 03:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• What I'm seeing is quite a bit of bear poking. I think an interaction ban is needed here. T. Canens (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• This is the second topic area I have seen TDC be disruptive in (first was September 11. I am leaning more towards a block for them. NW (Talk) 06:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• Not really opposed to a block, but unless it's indef I'd say that we still need an interaction ban - probably one-way. T. Canens (talk) 13:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'd be somewhat inclined to block TDA as well, still considering it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Dicklyon

Neotarf

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Wee Curry Monster

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Wee Curry Monster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Wee Curry Monster talk 13:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Restrictions on editing Gibraltar articles at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar#Sanctions

Administrator imposing the sanction

Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Wee Curry Monster

This sanction has been in place for over a year, the RFC requested has never happened. User:Imalbornoz and User:Richard Keatinge were simply reverting edits with no real rationale. User:Imalbornoz the subject of the AE complaint has made no substantive edit on wikipedia since. The restriction is moot anyway as during the intervening period other editors have re-added material removed by User:Imalbornoz concerning signficant historical events in Gibraltar. I have a number of articles in my sandpit for over a year that I couldn't publish because of this restriction. I would like this to be lifted please.

Statement by Timotheus Canens

My tentative view is that a trial lifting is probably appropriate. With the benefit of hindsight, we probably should have simply directed the opening of an RFC. T. Canens (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Wee Curry Monster

Result of the appeal by Wee Curry Monster

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Iadrian yu

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Iadrian yu

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nmate (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Iadrian yu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Explanation: Recently, the user lodged a request for arbitration against me in which I was accused of making personal attacks, battleground behavior, edit warring raised to a level that is amount to having an arbitration case against me, and doing OR. On 16:33, 11 October 2012, It was rejected. Admin EdJohnston said: Don't see anything here. It's hard to view this as a good-faith report.13:07, 11 October 2012

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 27 August 2010 by Stifle (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Shortly after his frivilous request for arbitration against me had been rejected, Iadrian yu arrived at several articles he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before. It is clear that Iadrian yu follows my edits around and tries to provoke confrontations and edit wars.

See timeline:

• 16:33, 11 October 2012 ("Iadrian yu's request for arbitration against me was rejected")

1. 17:09, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
2. 17:11, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
3. 17:11, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
4. 17:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
5. 17:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
6. 17:15, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
7. 17:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
8. 18:12, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
9. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
10. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
11. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
12. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
13. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
14. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
15. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
16. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
17. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
18. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
19. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
20. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
21. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
22. 18:17, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
23. 18:17, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
24. 18:18, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
25. 18:28, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
26. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
27. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
28. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.

After having exhibited a strong opinion on Hungarians , which is compatible with what various right wing organizations claim in Romania like Noua Dreaptă, I felt the need to report Iadrian yu to WP AE in 2010. It did not result in him being sanctioned, because it requires a preliminary notice of Digwuren upon which the sanction is based. Instead, the administrators decided to deliver him an ‎AE warning on his talk page.

Being worried about saddling himself with longer blocks, he learned from the lesson afterwards: it isn't wise to reveal his opinion on Hungarians in Misplaced Pages. However, Iadrian yu meanwhile became increasingly busy shopping for blocks against my person. The user makes friviluous reports against me using the latest edits of mine with outright false misrepresentations and the diffs simply can't support what he claims they show which indicates a general battleground attitude on his part. Shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected, Iadrian yu again began following me to articles he had never edited before solely to revert my edits. In light of this, I do not think that it is a content dispute which is possible to resolve over talk page discussions.

I think that accusing anybody of battleground behaviour, making personal attacks and disruptive editing in a request for arbitration without any evidence really falls under WP:NPA and WP:BATTLEGROUND (See: 16:33, 11 October 2012). Shortly after his frivilous request for arbitration against me had been rejected, this user tried to provoke confrontations and edit wars by following me to 28 articles he had never edited before. I think that this pattern of behavior constitutes WP:HARASSMENT.

To Iadrian yu

it is a plain nonsense. What does it mean "Nmate resumed our dispute"? It was Iadrian yu who filled a frivilous RFA against me; most of the diffs he presented in the report did not even concern him any way. Shortly after his frivilous RFA had been closed, Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me. It is hardly possible to take as a content dispute. In his frivilous RFA, Iadrian yu accused me of various things without any evidence that falls under WP:NPA and WP:HARASSMENT.

Then I reverted a message of Iadrian yu posted on User:Koertefa's talk page because it concerned me in a highly insulting way:
Don`t get this the wrong way but I am just curious. Did you checked the diffs I provided? And you see nothing wrong there with the behavior of this particular user? per ad hominem.

After that Iadrian yu tricked administrator The Blade of the Northern Lights into thinking that I am also worth my salt. To which The Blade of the Northern Lights answered that "He's allowed to remove messages from his own talkpage, but not other people, and I agree that edit summary wasn't helpful; I'll leave a note."
Afterwards The Blade of the Northern Lights left a note on my tlak page that "While I appreciate your frustration with Iadrian yu, stuff like this isn't going to help you much".

Well, Iadrian yu meanwhile followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, and continued harassing me shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected. It gives an interesting zest to referring to WP:LETGO.

"As per WP:LETGO I did`t edited any articles by Nmate and stand clear of any future problems". As of when? Because Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected.

"I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith." -this sentence is woefully ungrammatical btw- Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected. Now Iadrian yu is saying that it was done in good faith, and he can hardly imaginge it to be taken otherwise on my part....referring to even WP:LETGO.. seriously? How is it possible this? Does this indicate a normal way of thinking?

My "strong" opinions are represented by Nmate is introduction of the 168 as a violation. I don`t see any problem introduction historical events , but Nmate does. I admit that my edit summary was not the best.. but after all that was from 2 years ago!

It is obvious that the edit summry is objectionable here. See:

("Reverted 1 edit by Rokarudi; Unification of Transilvania with Romania is a fact not a POV. Because Hungarian ultra-nationalists claim Transilvania we can`t mention facts?")

The diff is more than 2 years old. However, it is a rather xenophobe viewpoint aimed at Hungarians; it is something that comes instincively. Iadrian yu likes editing Misplaced Pages along with Hungarian user of whose favourite subject is history while his approach to Hungarians is xenophobe. After I had reported Iadrian yu for this xenophobe edit summary, he gave up on expressing his frank opinion on Hungarians while at the same time he developed an interest for shopping for blocks for me owing to the fact that Iadrian yu is a rather vindictive user as well.

His latest attempt at shopping for a block for me happened on 16:33, 11 October 2012. Considering that Iadrian yu has a more than 2 year old history of shopping for blocks for me, invoking WP:LETGO takes some chutzpah on his part. In addition, it happened shortly after his latest frivilous RFA against me had been closed ,and then followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me. And he thinks that it was a good faith act on his part. Huh? How is it possible this?

To Iadrian yu and Omen1229

There is no point in continuing this discussion because ,as usual, Iadrian yu fiddles with the diffs in a deceptive way; no resason to respond to his further diffs because the discussion could become mazy that is difficult to look over.

I would advise Omen1229 to learn some more English, because his sentences are borderline unreadable. As for "when the Kingdom of Hungary was established", there was a short intermittent period; in fact, it belonged to Hungary at that time, which is true. Interesting enough that Omen1229 can't write in correct English grammar, yet he keeps accusing all the Hungarian users of battleground behaviour. Because I am not the only person who is accused of battleground behaviour by Omen1229. He appears to think that this type of tactic may pay off.

In conclude

I feel it may be a time that a restriction from following me around on Misplaced Pages be imposed upon Iadrian yu. Because saying that he acts toward me in good faith is not credible i.e. making corrections regarding my edits shortly after his RFA against me was rejected. And even on the same day, Iadrian yu came to the decision to stay away from me to obviate the possibility of the occurance of any problems in the future after following me to yet another 28 articles he had never edited before.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Iadrian yu

Statement by Iadrian yu

I believe this report is regarding with my previous, but anyway...

After this , and this I have considered this finished. Unfortunately, Nmate resumed our dispute (first he illegally deleted a comment of mine, being immediately informed for this by an admin) and then filed this report.

As per WP:LETGO I did`t edited any articles by Nmate and stand clear of any future problems (as per my recent contributions) but Nmate has written this comment ] considering me as an "anti-Hungarian" editor and more, while I don`t any problems with other Hungarian editors (I have a good cooperation with several Hungarian editors actually) - while he accuses me of belonging to the some organization "Noua Dreaptă"?? By his reasoning does he(Nmate) belongs to the Sixty-Four Counties Youth Movement? Even after this, I did`t engaged in any contact with Nmate. Now this report based on his introduction of original research (Kingdom of Hungary, 9th century, but it existed only after 1000 year) by him and my edits reverting that data. Also reverting one edit is hardly an edit war or anything similar. Other editors expressed their opinion too that this is OR (, , ,) and in my previous report where I was warned for misusing this board .

My "strong" opinions are represented by Nmate is introduction of the ] as a violation. I don`t see any problem introduction historical events , but Nmate does. I admit that my edit summary was not the best.. but after all that was from 2 years ago! Reverting original research I don`t see as harassment, and he yet reintroduced a bunch of original research introduced by him??? Based on what ? Reading the main and only accusation Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before. - does this mean that I am not allowed to edit articles I never did before? I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith. Nmate is a Hungarian editor whose preoccupation is the history of his country and I don't think he is not aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Hungary was founded in year 1000 (sources: }).

After all this I just want to WP:LETGO and continue with my work on wikipedia. I believe my contributions prove that. If there is original research I would remove it, and there is no need to write a report for that. Adrian (talk) 01:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

1. Yes, you continued our dispute, and there are diffs to prove it in my starting comment. I filled a report against you, and there is no secret about that. I was warned for misusing this board. After this I stayed away from you. If you are answering my statement, please read it carefully.
2. I did`t "followed" you, I have noticed a couple of weeks ago the problem of your original research but I have left to see if you would correct it, because you are familiar with the fact that your data is incorrect. Also I can notice that you reverted many of then for no apparent reason? May I know why? Since your edit summary is empty... Even in my report you did`t missed the change the accuse me of some things and now based on some reverts you are saying I harass you...I believe that is plain nonsense.
3. You reverted my message because it was insulting? This was insulting? I am sorry but this is in no way Ad hominem, and if you consider it was you have a board for personal attacks, not as a result writing an edit summary that is truly Ad hominem (Undid revision 517167974 by Iadrian yu (talk) trolling by a highly disruptive user). I guess this comments introduced by you are not insulting (1, 2, 3, Hello you smartass or rather doofus/dummy 4, 5, 6) ? Or this comment where you called me a lot of things based on absolutely nothing where his contributions almost always appear to be aimed at removing Hungarian-related content, or modifying content to be more anti-Hungarian. , The reason why Iadrian yu requested for arbitration against me was that Iadrian yu thinks that the anti-Hungarian side may loose of their turf after Samofi's talk page access was revoked - ??? anti-Hungarian side? lose turf? I was not aware that this was a war.... But all this was not Ad hominem and my comment here was???
4. I tricked an admin? By asking what I did wrong in my report? By informing of your edit summary and that you deleted my comment on other users page? No comment on this because the words speak for themselves, how are you interpreting them is against their meaning.
5. As I said before, removing original research is not harassment. Also an uninvolved editor expressed his opinion on this and he did`t saw anything wrong.
6. I will repeat, I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith. Nmate is a Hungarian editor whose preoccupation is the history of his country and I don't think he is not aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Hungary was founded in year 1000 (sources: }). And yet you reverted some of this edits and filed a report here based on them...Adrian (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

NPA

My edit summary was from 2 years ago, and as such I don`t see it relevance to present-day discussions. Introducing a 2 year ago diff is not block-shopping? Talking about old diffs, I don`t want to "dig", but you had a lot of problematic statements (ex:, , ) - looks like you accuse every user of wikistalking? Just because some editor did`t edited that article before?. Saying what I said then is wrong but surely not xenophobic. And that statement was not introduced against a specific user, from my comment it is clear I refer to one specific group (Hungarian ultra-nationalists) and not personally you, or this user. Again I know now that this kind of comments are disruptive and as you noticed also, I did`t used that kind of tone with anyone in recent time(1 year+). I see that after calling me an anti-Hungarian editor you went a step further and labeled me as a xenophobic user. At this point, you talking about block-shopping is really strange. I don`t wish to comment further on this kind of WP:NPA on me. If you wish to talk about the problem you represented on this report, I will respond on that only. Adrian (talk) 10:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I expected a response to my previous answer, number 3 actually and number 6? Adrian (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to "To Iadrian yu and Omen1229" and "In conclude"

1. As I said before,After this I stayed away from you. If you are answering my statement, please read it carefully. If you check the time stamps you can notice.
2. It is clear that you are continuing with your introduction of WP:OR and yet you did`t said the reason of your reverts?
3. Again, as I said before, removing original research is not harassment. An uninvolved editor expressed his opinion on this and he did`t saw anything wrong.
4. As for the accusation that I am flowing you, per WP:HOUND - Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. - I have corrected your introduction of invalid data(OR). About your claims of harassment Threatening another person is considered harassment. This includes threats to harm another person, to disrupt their work on Misplaced Pages, or to otherwise harm them. Statements of intent to properly use normal Misplaced Pages processes, such as dispute resolution, are not threats. - I did`t threat you in any way with my comments or contributions.
5. After all this I just want to WP:LETGO and continue with my work on wikipedia. I believe my contributions prove that. If there is original research I would remove it, and there is no need to write a report for that.
6. I am confused, just because I (or anybody else) did`t edited that article before that means I am not able to do so in the future? Do you WP:OWN this articles? So nobody new is allowed to edit them?

Adrian (talk) 11:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

I am really interested why User:Nmate avoids to give an answer why is he continuing with the introduction of WP:OR and yet did`t said the reason of his reverts? This is the base for this report after all. As he said, 28 of them.

• If I or anybody else correct this data again, does this mean there will be a new report as some sort of "harassment" against this user?
• Or another accusation of wikistalking ?
• Or engage in an edit war?
• Or a label to whomever disagree`s with his as an "anti-Hungarian" editor who fight for "terf" and is xenophobe  ? Adrian (talk) 14:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:Tijfo098

I actually try to stay away from this user because of his attitude, he actually labeled me. When I stumbled on 3 articles with the same problematic data introduced by Nmate, after a couple of minutes I noticed that this is introduced on a lot more articles. I don`t believe this is wikihounding since I did`t interfere to create problems nor to disrupt this user in any way. Per WP:HOUND - Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. - I did exactly this. As far as I can see, everybody agrees that data "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." is false (OR). Adrian (talk) 10:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:Fakirbakir

I agree. Nmate inserted Kingdom of Hungary. As such you can see why I see this statement problematic. Even the Principality of Hungary was not active in the 9th century. If the data were valid, with sources, I have nothing against the inclusion of it. Since the earliest data about the Principality of Hungary is circa year 900, I have nothing against of adding something like "Around the year 900 (since it is circa, we can`t know for sure if it is 9 or 10 century) the territory of became part of the Principality of Hungary. - sounds more realistic, but is still requires a source per wiki policies. Because at least we have some indications that this is very possible. I discussed this also with another editor and it seems this would be fine by him too. What Nmate did is clearly WP:OR. Adrian (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to the proposed sanction

I think this would be a bad idea, for both of us.

The warning I received in 2010 for AE is not a usual one I misbehaved but I at least I had valid reasons . The admin could`t retract the warning but had more understanding after seeing this diffs.

After all, this is what User:Nmate wanted from the start of all this . All editors who expressed their opinion here agreed that I was right in removing the statement about Hungary in 9th century, so I don't understand why I am blamed for it with an indefinite ban for some topics. I don`t see why I have to have any restriction because of the unconventional behavior of this user? All this could be avoided if he would just talk and not used blind reverts.

• (My proposal) -I did`t wrote a any kind of report in a while, while I can`t say this for Nmate. Maybe we(both users) could be restricted for filing reports against each-other and if a serious problem arises in the future to be solved with contacting an admin on the talk page.

I don`t have any problems with any other user(in particular with Hungarian users on Hungary-related articles). He have written this report based on content dispute, not me, as such I don`t see fair for introducing any restriction to me. I was warned for misusing this board a couple of days ago, but after comments he used, and the type of language he showed here, I thought that was unacceptable. As I stayed away from Nmate all this time, I will in the future too, but when I see a clear violation like it is presented in this case I would correct it.Adrian (talk) 07:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise - I don`t understand how my behavior is more tendentious. Please check this: and . Adrian (talk) 08:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:CoolKoon

I can understand your logic but I don`t agree with it. Just because I did`t edited an article before that doesn`t mean I am not allowed to do that in the future. Your examples have sense if you wish to show me like I am following Nmate, but how about this articles : , , , , , (just a few examples) did Nmate edited them too? You make it look like I edit some articles just because Nmate does(what about the 90% of my contributions that have no contact with Nmate?) but I haven`t had any contact with this user for a while until now. I fail to see why do you think I deserve any kind of sanction? You presented a case like a problem for excluding info,... I am deleting unreferenced info while Nmate is "constructive" introducing unreferenced info and entering in conflicts while he insist it`s inclusion? Because I removed OR introduced by Nmate? Since my last report "boomerang" against me, by the same conditions, I except something similar to happen here without any block on either side since this is a content dispute. I notice that some of the worst comments on wiki by Nmate are ignored( and - while for much less I got warned in 2010) but on my account removing a OR is a problem. Adrian (talk) 11:35, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Iadrian yu

I can confirm that Adrian is right in removing the sentence about "Kingdom of Hungary in 9th century". Instead of edit warring and reinserting unsourced stataments, he could have done a little research and learn that the Kingdom of Hungary was established by Stephen I in 1000 AD. He could simply have read the infobox of Kingdom of Hungary article, but he preferred to revert Adrian, what looks like battleground mentality for me. In the future, Nmate please use reliable source for exact , because the form of government was at times changed or ambiguous, causing interruptions, for example . --Omen1229 (talk) 09:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC) --Omen1229 (talk) 09:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a simple content dispute. I agree those settlements did not become parts of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 9th century but all of them became integral parts of the rising Principality of Hungary at the beginning of the 10th century. The Hungarian conquest was done by 902 according to the researchers. Moreover, the territories controlled by the Hungarian Grand Princes were much bigger than the latter territory of Kingdom of Hungary. For instance, the western borders of the principality reached to River Enns (today the border region between Upper and Lower Austria) until 955 because of the typical nomadic march (frontier, Gyepüelve in Hungarian) borderlands. Another thing, the map demonstrated by Omen1229 is highly dubious and misleading because the northern parts of Kingdom of Hungary or according to the map the "Slovak lands" (this expression is also dubious in the 11th century in connection with Kingdom of Hungary) were parts of Poland only from 1003 to 1015 or from 1015 to 1018 (according to the sources, see History of Slovakia). Fakirbakir (talk) 09:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Iadrian yu indeed took interest in Nmate's editing. The issue here is that the content added by Nmate is unreferenced and it consists of pretty obscure historical facts/claims that were added in cookie-cutter fashion to many articles. So I don't know if removing that is sanctionable, other than for both sides edit warring over it. Furthermore there are WP:SYNT concerns with adding info about who the territory belonged to three centuries before this or that village was ever mentioned in the historical record. (The list of former claimants/occupiers/migrators through that land can be pretty long.) Tijfo098 (talk) 10:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I feel like I have to comment on this, especially since I thought that the issue would go away after Adrian's failed attempt at having ArbCom impose a topic ban on Nmate as per the DIGWUREN case, but obviously it didn't. Don't get me wrong, Nmate can become really agitated at times (e.g. removing content from another user's talk page is a no-no) and needs to polish his English skills as well (an "issue" which has earned him a sanction when he called another editor a "pest" simply because he probably wasn't aware of the fact that the term sounds much harsher than he meant it to be), but I still have to say that he's a "constructive" editor because he's usually adding contents. This is in contrary to editors who oppose him (Adrian and Omen1229 being among them) and who are much keener on removing content instead of adding it (e.g. removal of Hungarian place names from articles being the most notorious example). I'd say that this alone's proof of the fact that this is much more than a simple "content dispute" (it's more of a "generalized" content dispute). And to make it worse while Nmate definitely shows a slight pro-Hungarian bias in his edits (basically he only edits articles which have any kind of connection to Hungary's present or past), his opposition is showing not only the exact opposite (i.e. an almost obsessive desire to remove Hungarian-related content from ANY article, even one that's as innocuous-looking as the one about Franz Liszt) but also a tendency to follow Nmate around (e.g. why'd Adrian go about editing articles about Hungarian villages of Slovakia if it's obvious that he's either a Serbian editor living in Romania or a Romanian editor living in Serbia -most probably Vojvodina-? Or Omen1229: why'd he post a notice on the Cluj-Napoca article's talk page if he's never edited Romanian-related articles before? Or why'd he suddenly edit articles about some small Transcarpathian villages that lie near the border if he has never engaged in such topics before? Isn't the only connection between those edits the fact that Nmate has edited them?) and express opinions about Hungarians in general that border paranoia (e.g. Adrian's edit summary from 2 years ago quoted above or this "friendly" ANI report by Omen1229 after I noted on his talk page that he might want to make the tone of his edits more neutral to avoid accusations of bias and one-sided POV). Therefore I think that imposing the very same restrictions for both Nmate and Adrian would create an impression that anti-Hungarian editors can do much more disruption than the people who are trying to stop them before they get any sanctions.

As for the admins' comments I have to side with Fut. Perf I'm afraid as per my reasons above. He was also right in pointing out the problem with imposing country-wise restrictions. Basically Slovakia (i.e. a state or a de facto recognized region of the land where the Slovaks live) did not exist before 1918 at all, so a topic ban of Slovakia would be pretty pointless for Nmate (who rarely seems to edit articles that concern present-day Slovakia and Slovak historical figures anyway), and in historical context he'd just say that he's dealing with content that deals with Hungarian history (and would be absolutely right even if the article's about villages lying in Slovakia; the same applies to Transylvania, Vojvodina and Transcarpathia all of which lie outside of Hungary's border but were part of Hungary prior to 1918). Also to turn this around a Hungarians-related ban for Adrian would also mean that he'd be banned from editing articles pertaining the Hungarian history as well (at least that's how it'd be interpreted by Hungarian editors I think). Therefore maybe a combination of interaction ban and an ethnic topics related ban would be a tad bit more effective. -- CoolKoon (talk) 10:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

why'd he post a notice on the Cluj-Napoca article's talk page if he's never edited Romanian-related articles before? > it's a problem for you? 1. Romanian-related article are not prohibited for users who them never edited before and 2. the reason is simple - it is similar issue as Bratislava article - WP recommendations are not accepted - Alternative names in begin section --Omen1229 (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

No, the fact that you've started editing a brand new article isn't problematic on its own. However the article in question deals with a city that you obviously never heard of, don't know anything about and never been at in the first place. Thus there's a high probability of you stumbling upon it either by stalking around Nmate or another Hungarian editor or hearing about it from a banned+blocked Romanian editor who shall not be named. And frankly speaking I don't know which one's worse. Besides I won't cite WP recommendations if I were you because it was a Serbian editor with a strong anti-Hungarian bias (who shall not be named either) that insisted on the elimination of the minority names and misinterpreted/twisted all the WP rules and recommendations on the matter to make them "sound" in his favor. -- CoolKoon (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Your strange synthesis are more and more boring. Please stop with personal attacks or do you have some evidence that I never heard about Kluž? Thus there's a high probability of you stumbling upon it either by stalking around Nmate or another Hungarian editor > Completely outside, stalking around Nmate or another editors is totally unacceptable for me. "high probability" - what it means? Are you accusing me without evidence or what? So again - the reason is simple - it is similar issue as Bratislava article - WP recommendations are not accepted. And what do you think about these edits ?--Omen1229 (talk) 17:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Strange synthesis? Do you REALLY think that anybody would believe the fact that you've ended up there "by chance" or "by a mistake" that had nothing to do with either the Hungarian editors or the Romanian puppet master? I mean anybody who checks your edit log will see that never before have you edited ANY of the articles that deal with Romania (or Transcarpathia for that matter), yet all of a sudden you had this "sudden urge" to "export" the completely unconstructive discussion from the Bratislava article's talk page to that of Cluj? And then you "spontaneously" appeared on articles that deal with some Transcarpathian villages only to remove edits of Nmate by chance alone? I certainly hope that no people in their right mind would buy that.

What about the edits on the Elie Wiesel article? It's ok to show interest in Hungarian politics in general, but copying extracts from published articles word by word constitutes a copyright violation which's supposed to be reverted on sight (even the Hungarian president had to resign for similar reasons and besides, the newspaper agency could then sue Misplaced Pages's pants off for this). Thus Nmate has removed it. In fact I would've removed it too. It really isn't Nmate's fault that your English needs considerable improvement (to be able to slightly reword/summarize content extracted from news portals). -- CoolKoon (talk) 18:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

And then you "spontaneously" appeared on articles that deal with some Transcarpathian villages only to remove edits of Nmate by chance alone? I certainly hope that no people in their right mind would buy that. > Do you think articles where Nmate deleted my contribs without reason? I do not know what is your intention and your essays + synthesis without evidence are boring and confusing for me.

What about the edits on the Elie Wiesel article?... Thus Nmate has removed it. > I use your sentences: Do you REALLY think that anybody would believe the fact that Nmate has ended up there (for example here: 1 2) "by chance" or "by a mistake" that had nothing to do with either the Slovak/Romanian/Serbs editors or the Hungarian puppet master? And my Transylvanian puppet master is Count Dracula for your info. --Omen1229 (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Future Perfect at Sunrise wrote "I'm not sure I see the situation as quite so symmetrical. I'm open to convinced otherwise , but where I've looked, it has usually seemed to me that Nmate came across as consistently more rational, more articulate and less tendentious than Iadrian yu." > How can Nmate be more rational than Adrian? Adrian never referred to Nmate's I.Q. like Nmate did about Adrian's Iadrian yu is not an I.Q. champion. Adrian never ilegally deleted others' commments like Nmate did . Adrian never recently used this kind of edit summaries (ask a Hungarian for the translation) Adrian never removed correct templates, like "unreferenced" for an unreferenced article .Future Perfect at Sunrise had no problem give me topic-ban from all edits relating to Slovak-Historian history for a period of six months , he promised that he will look on my "oponnents", but nothing happened. On the other hand after canvass of Nmate he had time to block Samofi . This was reason for him for topic ban: and this for a block: But for example this statement (The modern Slovakia is a neo-fascist state where the hungarian minority is just a thing what they have to assimilate into the slovak society. ) was unnoticed. Now "he thinks – refused to take action against Nmate" and he has also "a practical issue about overlap in the scope of the topic bans".--Omen1229 (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by CoolKoon moved here from below. @EdJohnston: The problem with such thinking is that many of Hungary's historical (or even some living) figures were born in places that don't belong to Hungary anymore yet they spent most of their life either in places that still belong to Hungary or went abroad (e.g. Endre Ady,Béla Bartók, Ányos Jedlik, Péter Pázmány etc. the list goes on and on), so interpreting today's borders in historical context (especially Hungarian historical context) is really asking for trouble (especially so since all the admins including you could be bugged with exceptions on a case-by-case basis almost every day considering the amount of such "controversial" historical figures). I still think that an interaction ban would be a better idea. (on a semi-related note I think I've read on WikiTravel that tourists traveling to Hungary should avoid bringing up the issue of Trianon unless they're good friends with the people they're visiting and/or are really knowledgeable about the topic which is a really good advice I'd say). -- CoolKoon (talk) 16:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Iadrian yu

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Link to or quote the exact remedy you wish us to enforce. Please word your request so that someone with no background will be able to understand your request.--Tznkai (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• It is easy to see that Nmate and Iadrian yu have repeatedly clashed on Eastern European topics over the last couple of years. Admins should consider doing something. If we still believed in interaction bans, I would propose that. Instead, I suggest that the domain of Eastern Europe be divided up to reduce the interaction between these editors. Nmate has received a logged notice under WP:ARBEE and Iadrian yu was effectively notified of ARBEE due to the filing of a complaint against him at AE in August, 2010.

To reduce the interaction between these editors I propose an indefinite ban of each editor from certain countries:

• Nmate to be banned from Romania, Serbia and Slovakia
• Iadrian yu to be banned from Hungary and the Czech Republic.

This division would still allow each editor to contribute in the areas they appear to know best. Iadrian yu identifies himself as a native speaker of Romanian and a level-5 speaker of Serbian. Nmate doesn't made his language abilities known on his user page but the 16 articles he has created are mainly about towns populated by Hungarians.

• Each of the two users has made past edits which suggest to me they have problems with neutrality when writing about topics that concern particular ethnicities. My proposal doesn't solve that problem, since Nmate will be able to write unchecked by Iadrian yu in articles in his own domain, and vice versa. This proposal mainly conserves admin bandwidth and space at the noticeboards. If any further problems arise with these editors on Eastern European topics, other parties can report them. EdJohnston (talk) 04:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the situation as quite so symmetrical. I'm open to convinced otherwise , but where I've looked, it has usually seemed to me that Nmate came across as consistently more rational, more articulate and less tendentious than Iadrian yu. For that reason, and also because we just – rightly, I think – refused to take action against Nmate in pretty much the same matters, I don't think handing out equal sanctions against each at this point would be quite fair.

There's also a practical issue about overlap in the scope of the topic bans. How are they going to be delimited, by modern state boundaries? Keep in mind that, for instance, Slovakia was part of Hungary for a large part of its history. So, if editor A is banned from Slovakia and B from Hungary, which of the two is still allowed to edit about shared history? If A writes an article about a Hungarian king, will he be blocked if the article mentions that he conquered a city that is now in Slovakia? If B writes an article about a Slovak town, will he be blocked if the article mentions what administrative unit the town was part of in the 19th century? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• For problems with Nmate's editing, see the list of reverts submitted with this report. Nmate was adding to 28 different articles that the territory in which they were located became part of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 9th century, while our own article on Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages says that the kingdom began in the year 1000. Nmate is assigning these towns to the kingdom (a) before sources say that the kingdom existed, (b) before there is any historical record of the existence of the towns themselves. This looks to be pro-Hungary glorification. See also the Executive Court of Prešov, an article created by Nmate which retains most of the non-neutral text (and lack of sources) with which he created it in 2008.
• For problems with overlap of nationalities in EE, I suggest that each party could work on anything that is located within the modern boundaries of their permitted countries, even if the town (or person) was connected with a different nationality in the period being written about. Each party could consult the banning administrator for exemption in particular cases. EdJohnston (talk) 13:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

1. Leonie Knebel and Pit Marquardt (2012). "Vom Versuch, die Ungleichwertigkeit von Menschen zu beweisen". In Michael Haller and Martin Niggeschmidt (ed.). Der Mythos vom Niedergang der Intelligenz: Von Galton zu Sarrazin: Die Denkmuster und Denkfehler der Eugenik. Springer DE. p. 104. doi:10.1007/978-3-531-94341-1_6. ISBN 978-3-531-18447-0.