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::I am confident it is here : Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine : Tome 3 - L’accomplissement des prophéties (1947-1967), t. 3, Fayard, 13 juin 2007, 838 p. (ISBN 9782213633589), p. 76. but I can't check because I only had access to this book in a library. Would someone have this or an easy access to this ? ] (]) 09:28, 11 November 2012 (UTC) ::I am confident it is here : Henry Laurens, ''La Question de Palestine : Tome 3 - L’accomplissement des prophéties (1947-1967)'', t. 3, Fayard, 13 juin 2007, 838 p. (ISBN 9782213633589), p. 76. but I can't check because I only had access to this book in a library. Would someone have this or an easy access to this ? ] (]) 09:28, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

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"Massacre"

Yuber, why was the page moved? And even worse, moved without a post to talk? This is generally referred to as a massacre, just as Deir Yassin is. It certainly is not usually referred to as an "incident." Please give some justification before renaming pages. Some examples of the way the word massacre is used in context:

  • " A "take no prisoners" massacre by Arab guerrillas of a convoy of medical personnel to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus, that included Jewish medical personnel, occurred on the 13th in Sheikh Jerakh near Mt. Scopus" From the Red Cross Report on Deir Yeissen
  • "The massacre of 77 members of a Hadassah medical convoy by Palestinian Arabs..." Encyclopedia Britannica
  • During Israel's 1948 War of Independence, Mount Scopus was cut off from the rest of Jerusalem, and convoys were organized to transport the medical staff safely past Arab troops. That April, a convoy was ambushed and 78 doctors and nurses killed in the worst massacre in Israeli history. The hospital closed and didn't reopen until the mid '70s. St. Petersburgh Times
  • ...there are many others, on both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian sites, and not a single reference I can find to an "incident"?

Please do not move pages without discussion in the future. Goodoldpolonius2 01:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I see from the debate around Qana Incident that this was probably a disruption to make a point. Don't do that, please, Yuber - it starts edit wars that ripple through Misplaced Pages, it wastes my and other editors' time, and there is no linkage between these two topics. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If we call this a response for Deir Yassin, then we should call every single asttack a response for what happened immedietly before, this is a ridiculous proposition.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary. There is essential unanimity among historians that the exceptional severity of the attack, and maybe the attack itself, was largely due to the Deir Yassin massacre which occured only a few days before had every Arab (and quite a few Jews) inflamed with anger. Eye-witnesses reported the attackers crying out "Deir Yassin". The wording that you removed, which I will restore, only noted the temporal proximity and doesn't suggest any causal connection even though there was one. In my opinion, that is a compromise too far in the wrong direction but I'll accept it. --Zero 09:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Deir Yassin reference, redux

I've changed the reference to the "Battle of Deir Yassin" to the "battle and massacre of Deir Yassin". I believe this should keep both sides equally happy (or unhappy). A necessary compromise, imo. Cgingold 19:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Event ?

I removed the word rumors because it is reffering to Deir Yasin making it sound as if it were a rumor and in general is read and understood differently by people. Now their were rumors that it was exaggerated with rape claims and higher death tolls at the time, but the fact is that it did happen and news of it happening was not false. The convoys were being attacked lightly before the massacre at Deir Yasin but became horrific on the day of the Haddas massacare clearly in response to what happened. The article also needs some minor cleaning as it has many unsourced claims. I do have some material on the massacre and will help with the sourcing and clean up of unverifiable facts. Angry Ayrab 08:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What did happen for sure was the battle. The massacre itself is disputed. Writing here "massacre" and not expanding on it suggests that it's an absolute fact, and it provides a sort of justification. Rumors might hint the opposite - that it for sure never happened, which you can also claim to be POV. I suggest using "Battle of Deir Yassin" which also directs to the same article then, or alternatively to add the word "disputed" before the "deir yassen massacre" in this article. what do you think. Amoruso 11:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all the opening paragrpah is wrong: It is not an "evenet" it is a warcrime massacre of medical personal.

second, Haddas convoy was not attack because of Deir Yassin. The attacks on the hospital strted long before Deir yassin (see http://www.hadassah.org/education/content/StudyGuides/Convoy_ITAD.pdf . Zeq 10:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

it no longer says event which is indeed an unfitting term like you said. the link I see was added.
I think There doesn't seem to be any explanation here for the NPOV tag. Correct me if I'm wrong Zeq. so if it's not explained it should be removed. Amoruso 23:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The contemporary reports in the Palestine Post are available online to anyone who cares to read them. They report British rescue attempts beginning early that morning. One was fired upon by the convoy. --Ian Pitchford 07:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I still don't understand what you're talking about. If something bothers you, correct it and remove the tag. Amoruso 07:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Question re smuggling of arms

I distinctly recall being taught when I was young (back in the mid-1960s) that Jewish forces had resorted to smuggling arms inside of ambulances (if I recall correctly, during the siege of Jerusalem). This information was imparted rather proudly, as evidence of their resourcefulness in the face of adversity. I haven't made an exhaustive search to document and confirm this, but I've been struck by it's omission from material that I've seen. Does anybody have solid information (either verifying or refuting) on this issue? And if it was taking place, did the Arab forces know about it, and if so, was it possibly a factor in this particular event? Thanks in advance for any useful replies on these questions. Cgingold 19:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a vivid memory from around ten years ago of an elderly woman boasting how she carried guns around Jerusalem under her skirt in case the Irgun men she was with were searched by the British Army. As to the question of how military was the convoy - how about the question how military was the hospital? One contempory reference that might be of interest is Thomas C. Wasson: Quotes from Wasson's reports to the United States State Department around the time of his death include:

On April 15 1948, in a report concerning the Hadassah Hospital Convoy Massacre, Wasson wrote, "American correspondent eye witnessed removal from trucks large quantities arms and ammunition and speculated whether for escort or other purpose."

On April 17 1948, he wrote " . . . queried as to whether convoy included armoured cars, Haganah guards, arms and ammunition in addition to doctors, nurses and patients, Kohn replied in affirmative saying it was necessary to protect convoy."

I'm sure there's more. I'll have a look around.Padres Hana (talk) 20:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


Probably, there was arms in the convoy, but there was a massacre. Also in Deir Yassin there was upon 100-120 fighters with light arms(20 or 30 men in guards, multiply by turns; 120 or 150 family, every arab adult man possesed a fire arm... Count this). And? A massacre is a massacre--83.138.204.5 (talk) 20:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

seems very pro israel and particularly anti british, have balanced it a little but needs more work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.104.87 (talk) 01:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not anti-British at all. It extolls the heroism of Jack Churchill, who was very British, as far as I can see.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Potential useful reference

Victims of Hadassah massacre to be memorialized, April 7, 2008, taken from this attempt to start a new article on this topic. The new article, Hadassah Massacre was a stub and now redirect here. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

recent

to Ashely: yes, the victims were jews. Amoruso (talk) 00:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

wp:rs

I don't think this can be considered as a wp:rs source to state that the massacre was not performed in retaliation of Deir Yassin in comparison with Lapierre and Collins who state the contrary... Ceedjee (talk) 19:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Arab Casualties

or should that be Palestinian casualties? I would like to note the editing of my contribution - 'The Times' (London) reported on April 14th 1948 that the 'number of Arabs killed at Mount Scopus was at least 10, the number of Jewish deaths is now 39.' into "one British soldier (no reference)". Padres Hana (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Palestinian Arab would be ok.
What is the source of that information ? (I mean, where did you get this ?)Ceedjee (talk) 08:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
The Times. I'll double check and get a photocopy. It'll take a few days but its not difficult.Padres Hana (talk) 22:19, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
If you checked yourself, that is ok for me !
Ceedjee (talk) 12:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I have the photocopy in front of me: Wednesday April 14 1948: Headline: ARABS AMBUSH CONVOY - 34 JEWS KILLED -Rescue by British Troops. From Our Own Correspondent. etc 'Part of the convoy turned back to the city, but the remainder became heavily engaged.' What I hadn't noticed until today is the bottom paragraph, dated: Jerusalem, April 13: ...'One of the vehicles destroyed when a land mine blasted the two leading armoured cars was the Jewish Red Shield ambulance.' It also mentions British troops rescuing 'a score of Jewish survivors'. The Scotsman's report is second half of a report from Lake Success, headline is BATTLE FOR CONVOY - 'British Troop Rescue Jews from Arab Ambush' TWO REPORTED KILLED (sic)'Jerusalem, Tuesday - Two British soldiers were reported killed and a senior British police officer and two soldiers were seriously wounded etc' ... 'killing at least five' Arabs '...' The bodies of 35 Jews mostly burning were counted and more were scattered by the roadside.' The Scotsman 16th April has four lines at the end of a longer report headed: OVER 100 ARABS KILLED IN JEWISH ATTACK (Mishmar-Haemek)...'The Jewish death roll(sic) in the Arab attack at Mount Scopus two days ago, on a convoy going to Hadassah Hospital, is now 77. They include doctors and nurses.'Padres Hana (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Sheikh Jarrah

Not an Arab neighbourhood but a mixed one, Sheikh Jarrah contained the Sephardi and Teimani neighbourhoods of Nahalat Shimon and Shimon HaTzadiq, depopulated the month before by the Arab unit al Shabab, this should be mentioned as these events were an important contributing factor leading to the event in question Spanglish (talk) 19:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Medical convoy

This was a medical convoy, and the title should reflect this. Ankh.Morpork 20:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Benny Morris refers to this as the Mount Scopus Convoy. (1948, Index p. 517). There were 10 trucks in the convoys : 2 armored cars, 2 buses (with the doctors, nurses and students) and 6 others trucks (p.128). The last 4 were trapped and coud not escape.
Could you please, on your side, profide wp:rs (not internet website but books written by scholars) who refer to this event with other words ?
Pluto2012 (talk) 08:56, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
(edit) This is not a wp:rs but it is interesting to point out that people who have the higher claim about the event refer to {http://www.hadassah.org.il/English/Eng_MainNavBar/News/Press+messages/The+Hadassah+Convoy+annual+memorial+ceremony.htm Hadassah Convoy massacre]. Pluto2012 (talk) 09:04, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

primary sources

This use of archival material is not allowed:

On April 15, 1948, the American Consul in Jerusalem, Thomas C. Wasson, reported that an "American correspondent eye witnessed removal from trucks large quantities of arms and ammuntion and speculated whether for escort or other purpose." On April 17, 1948, he wrote "queried as to whether convoy included armoured cars, Haganah guards, arms and ammunition in addition to doctors, nurses and patients, Kohn replied in affirmative saying it was necessary to protect convoy."<ref>Telegrams 439 & 455, Jerusalem Consular Files, Series 800 Palestine, Record Group 84, National Archives</ref>

Though I don't have it here to check, I suspect this has been taken from Michael Green, Taking Sides, which is not a reliable source. If the same or similar material can be found in a reliable secondary source, it might be acceptable. Zero 04:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

You are right.
This material is also used in the article about the massacres of the '48 war and this should be removed if there is not 2nd reliable sources corroborating this.
Pluto2012 (talk) 09:06, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I am confident it is here : Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine : Tome 3 - L’accomplissement des prophéties (1947-1967), t. 3, Fayard, 13 juin 2007, 838 p. (ISBN 9782213633589), p. 76. but I can't check because I only had access to this book in a library. Would someone have this or an easy access to this ? Pluto2012 (talk) 09:28, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
  1. Telegrams 439 & 455, Jerusalem Consular Files, Series 800 Palestine, Record Group 84, National Archives
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