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==April 30, 2006==




Revision as of 18:47, 10 May 2006

Peace dove with olive branch in its beakPlease stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
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Userboxes are sometimes deleted by administrators if there are thought to be valid reasons for their removal from Misplaced Pages. However, some userboxes may be inappropriately deleted. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Userbox debates considers appeals to restore userboxes that have been deleted. It also considers disputed decisions made in deletion-related fora. Before using the Review, please read Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy and Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy.

Category:User undeletion lists a number of administrators who are prepared to honour good faith requests for the restoration of deleted content to your user space, for example if you want to work up a more encyclopaedic article. This does not require deletion review, you can ask one of them directly (or post a request at the administrators' noticeboard).

Purpose

  1. Userbox debates Deletion Review is the process to be used by all editors, including administrators, who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate or a speedy deletion unless:
    • They are able to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question (this should be attempted first - courteously invite the deleting admin to take a second look);
    • In the most exceptional cases, posting a message to WP:AN/I may be more appropriate instead. Rapid correctional action can then be taken if the ensuing discussion makes clear it should be.
    • An administrator (or other editor) is correcting a mistake of their own, or has agreed to amend their decision after the kind of discussion mentioned above.
  2. Deletion Review is also to be used if significant new information has come to light since a deletion and the information in the deleted article would be useful to write a new article.
This process should not be used simply because you disagree with a deletion debate's reasoning — but instead if you think the debate was interpreted incorrectly by the closer or have some information pertaining to the debate that did not receive an airing during the AfD debate (perhaps because the information was not available at that time). This page is about process, not about content, although in some cases it may involve reviewing content.

This process is about userboxes, not about people. If you feel that an administrator is routinely deleting userboxes prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators.

If you nominate a page here, be sure to make a note on the administrator's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template is available to make this easier:

{{subst:DRVU note|section heading}} ~~~~

Similarly, if you are a administrator and a page you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Please take general discussion to the talk page.

May 10, 2006

Template:User Darwinist

File:Darwinist-symbol.png
This user is a Darwinist.

the citation of CSD T1 appears specious and not very logical. How is a userbox that allows a user to identify with the scientific theories of Charles Darwin considered inflammatory? Netscott 16:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


  • Keep deleted - And who refers to themselves as a "Darwinist" anyway? The only time I've heard someone using that word is when creationists are being incredibly ignorant and railing against the perceived Darwinist conspiracy. If you want to proclaim that you understand science, you don't need to use a silly userbox to do it. Just do what I do. Here's a direct quote from my userpage: "I'm mostly interested in anything having to do with science, including but not limited to, evolution, encryption, astronomy, science fiction, SETI, and computer programming. I'm also interested in politics, mostly because of the negative influence on science it's been having lately. I am an unabashed naturalist." --Cyde Weys 16:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • keep deleted Evolution and Creationism is a very inflammatory issue (if you don't believe that, look on the talk pages of related articles and some of the comments from people on both sides). That's clearly what this template is about not about happening to agree with some general scientific theory. And I'll try to refrain from making puns off the word "specious" JoshuaZ 16:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Origin of Specious? LOL! Nice comment! Netscott 16:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This user believes in intelligent design or creationism.


Netscott 16:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct, in fact someone who has more time on their hands (I need to do real work right now) should go throuhg and substitute and delete it. JoshuaZ 16:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't take lots of time, it just takes a bot. Unfortunately, my Userboxbot proposal was shot down, so I can't substitute it before deleting it (which I have done). --Cyde Weys 16:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah you can, just do it by hand. Kotepho 16:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Nah. --Cyde Weys 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Fine, I'll do it. There is only ~90 instances. Kotepho 16:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
You have more patience than I do, that's for sure. --Cyde Weys 16:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm never doing that by hand again. {{user progressive creationism}} {{user theistic evolution}} {{user theistic evolution2}} {{user evolution2}} and {{user evol-0}} through {{user evol-4}} and {{user evol-N}} if someone fancies deleting more. Kotepho 18:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Haha, I don't blame you! See, by bot would be much better. I'm taking care of these others too. --Cyde Weys 18:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • kd and isn't the fish supposed to be facing the other way and with two feet instead of... i'm not sure what those things on the bottom are, tentacles? Kotepho 16:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleting all bumperstickers - and we should take out the creationist ones at the same time. --Doc 17:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted as per JoshuaZ's and Cyde's reasoning, above. It's clearly an inflammatory issue. And keep deleting opposing views, as Doc suggests. Nhprman 17:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete Darwinism is a proven scientific theory. There is nothing divisive about science. This template is perfectly NPOV.  Grue  17:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Waaait a minute, if "science" isn't divisive, what's all this Creation-evolution controversy stuff about? Homestarmy 17:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Um, Grue, Darwinism actually has some pretty significant flaws in it, particularly seeing as how it was proposed before the physical mechanism of inheritance (DNA) was even discovered. Darwinism does not refer to the current modern synthesis of evolution. Also, scientific theories are never proven, only disproven. --Cyde Weys 18:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

May 9, 2006

Template:User Communist

Last deleted version (?):

This user is a Communist.

Version as of last TfD:

This user is a Communist.

I'd suggest that some of these people care about the encyclopedia as well, and that if you're interested in writing an encyclopedia, you should consider whether the loss of their contributions is worth it. For example, Tony, specifically related to you is User:Crotalus horridus. Was whatever policy victory you achieved worth his departure? I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, I'm asking you to think about it. TheJabberwʘck 18:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Whether it's Communism or some other -ism is irrelevent. Announcing our political viewpoints and getting to know other people who share those views are not the purposes of Misplaced Pages, and politics has no place here. Nhprman 00:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Honestly, I would rather that both this template and its counterpart be kept, but I think it's reasonable to interpret T1 as prohibiting attack or anti-boxes, and allowing support boxes, so that's how I'm voting. TheJabberwʘck 18:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree. Deleting all political boxes at once is a good suggestion. But I suspect that won't happen, because the idea of generating consensus through these discussions will create precedent for, and give momentum to, the deletion of future boxes when they are deleted. I'm being assured that this process is ramping up and the pace of deletions is quickening. Nhprman 17:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:User No Marxism

  • Deleted under T1 some weeks ago by me. User:Mike Rosoft has without consultation undeleted it.
  • Keep deleted, valid T1, clearly divisive and inflammatory. --Tony Sidaway 19:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted This does not help build an encyclopedia --Doc 00:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. T1 for the obvious-impaired. Mackensen (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, correct application of T1. -GTBacchus 00:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, ditto everyone else. Mike Rosoft should not be undeleting clearly T1 templates. --Cyde Weys 00:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Clearly falls under WP:CSD#T1. AmiDaniel (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per GTBacchus. TheJabberwʘck 00:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Changed to Speedy keep as I understand the current situation: it already survived a deletion review, and nothing has changed since then. I wish there was more transparency here so I could vote accurately the first time... TheJabberwʘck 03:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, etc., etc. Correct application of T1. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Userfy I'd say I hate being the odd man out, except...I don't :/. Now, since its in template space I suppose it's, well, not really Wiki template type material, but I don't see the harm in it being in user space, I mean, alot of people probably don't like Marxism, and it doesn't seem to be that mean a template...... Homestarmy 00:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep and early close this review, per Kotepho's's comments. Noted the prior actions on the template talk. — xaosflux 01:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    The notes on the talk page give no grounds for keeping, much less "speedy keep", which would traditionally require a bad faith nomination (not the case here) or a withdrawal (which I decline to do). This unequivocally divisive and inflammatory template will remain deleted. --Tony Sidaway 01:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Keep restored, list on TfD obviously there is debate among admins on this one, get consensus and do away with it, the project won't hurt by having this out there for a week. — xaosflux 00:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC) Changed to Speedy Keep above.
    Ten or so against one isn't a debate, especially when the one was wheel-warring. Mackensen (talk) 01:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think this establishes that no abuse of administrator powers was involved in deleting the template. Would anybody like to redelete and close this? --Tony Sidaway 01:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    If im reading the timestamps right, this vote is only like a little more than an hour old and most of the votes seemed to rush in during the first 30 minutes or something, I think a little more time would be nice :/. Homestarmy 01:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Why? We've already got a very strong administrator consensus in favor of my speedy deletion. --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment You should at least mention that it was sent to TFD after a DRVU that resulted in keep. Last I checked the multiple deletions of this template would fall under wheel warring too. Kotepho 01:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Let's ask Mike Rosoft, who has restored this template a remarkable three times. Much of this occurred before T1 was accepted as policy (as it now is). Since then, Tony Sidaway deleted it, quite properly, and Mike Rosoft restored it, two weeks later, without discussion. That is wheel-warring. Mackensen (talk)
    It takes n+1 to wheel war. Kotepho 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, but that's not a reflection on n. Mackensen (talk) 01:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    If it is done without discussion it sure is. Kotepho 01:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Recreate In light of Kotepho's comments. Normally I would want to userfy, but speedy deletion after a TfD said keep is Out of Order. I hope some of the above votes reconsider in light of this. -- Dragoonmac - o I'll solve it 01:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Many inflammatory and divisive templates are speedied correctly after being kept at TfD. The campaigns to keep such templates are precisely the reason why we have a criterion for their speedy deletion. --Tony Sidaway 01:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    I don't strongly disagree with that, excepting that this was already brought to DRV after being speedied last time, and it was decided then that it should be decided in TfD. That was less then a month ago. Continuously cycling this through the system is taking away valuable time from everyone involved. — xaosflux 01:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Quite. So why was it undeleted two weeks after the fact? It clearly wasn't missed. Mackensen (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Are you refering to these logs below? The TFD ended on 7 March 2006, and it was restored the next day after a consensus was determined by User:Mailer diablo. — xaosflux 01:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    1. 2006-05-08 21:56:08 Mike Rosoft restored "Template:User No Marxism" (5 revisions restored: Userbox repeatedly survived a deletion vote, and was previously undeleted)
    2. 2006-05-08 21:54:26 Mike Rosoft deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (Restoring, userbox repeatedly survived a deletion vote, content was: '<noinclude>{{deletedpage}}</noinclude>' (and the only contributor was 'Tony Sidaway'))
    3. 2006-04-25 15:51:46 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (CSD T1)
    Are you suggesting that because noone wheel wared this template while it was in debate means it wasn't missed? — xaosflux 01:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    I would agree that it wasn't missed, simply because I had absolutely no feedback about this routine speedy deletion from anyone for two weeks. What seems to have happened then is that the original creator noticed and complained about the deletion--not to me, but to another administrator who is known for his repeated undeletions of templates validly deleted by administrators under CSD T1. --Tony Sidaway 17:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Blatantly T1. JoshuaZ 01:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Divisive and inflammatory? Sure, I can see how one could think that. Kotepho 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Salt the earth. Blatantly T1, and an abuse of the template: namespace and userspace privileges. This should never have been undeleted. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Divisive and inflammatory, but then again, all political boxes (even the "pro" boxes) are divisive and have no place here. Nhprman 02:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment by the creator of the template As already noted consensus has been twice for retaining this template (Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_27#Template:User_No_Marxism). * Also, I think it's biased to remove the only anti-communist userbox in a situation when we have tens of different communist ones and all in all, hundreds of political templates. That's a thesis which I've already presented months ago, and the situation has not changed, on the contrary, new communist ones have arisen.
    My opinion is that every more or less 'mainstream' ideology might have its userbox. We needn't have tens of communist userboxes, but one or two, and naturally we ought to have an anti-communist one as well. 'Divisive' etc thing is ridiculous -- all the political userboxes might be regarded as 'divise'; so far, mr Sidaway&co has not started a complete userbox deletion campaign (leaving a doubt if userboxes except for the anti-marxist one seem too hard to swallow?!).--Constanz - Talk 05:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Your apology is politely requested:
    • 15:51, 25 April 2006 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User Communist" (CSD T1)
    • 15:51, 25 April 2006 Tony Sidaway deleted "Template:User No Marxism" (CSD T1)
  • Thank you. --Tony Sidaway 06:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Had you read my notes through, you would have noted that I supported having both some communist userboxes (actually, i do not care much, how many we have, let'm be) and also the anti-communist box. After your two deletions noted above, the situation is following: not a single userbox opposed to socialist-communist-marxist etc thinking, although non-communism is clearly majority POV worldwide. So, we now have have anti-communism prohibited and following ideologies permitted:
    Template:User progressive Template:user Socialist Template:user Socialist2 User:Bill_Du/Socialist4 User:Bill_Du/Socialist3 Template:user Democratic Socialist Template:user libertarian socialist Template:user libertarian socialist2 Template:user Christian communist Template:user marxist Template:user Trot --Constanz - Talk 06:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Exactly. It seems a very well organized clique on the Left is dominating by quickly responding to any attempt to delete, and are VERY aggressive against boxes they oppose. The answer is delete ALL political Userbox Templates but allow them as text on Userpages. That takes them out of template space and out of the realm of community debate here and elsewhere. Nhprman 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Well, if left was able to save their boxes due to good organisation, then the fact reveals that speedy deletion on basis of T1 has not been exercised concerning 'red' userboxes. Also, all the templates could be deleted if the list would be composed and consensus reached. However, I think no admin dares to do so, for then he might face the whole community. Thus, a weird form of 'divide et impera' has been used.
    That's a good exposition of what's going on. Nhprman 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
are VERY aggressive against boxes they oppose -- well, the aggressiveness here towards the only anti-communist box has definitely not releaved the pressure. --Constanz - Talk 06:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You are of course welcome to delete those userboxes also. --Tony Sidaway 06:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Consensus has been against, also, i'm not an admin and I'm against uncautious deletions.--Constanz - Talk 06:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Consensus has not been against. We have a rough consensus of MySpacers who want them kept, a rough consensus of dedicated admins who want them gone, and a full consensus of actual encyclopaedia writers who don't give a damn either way and want the issue gone. By the way, I see you note {{User progressive}} in your list of Evil Commie Boxen. Progressive? Get some perspective, dude! fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 07:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    The Myspacers are winning the debate, and as long as the Writers are complacent and don't care, the MySpacers win by default. The situation is not a good one. Nhprman 20:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Myspacers winning? How do you figure? I would have said the opposite. -GTBacchus 21:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    How can you look at the bottom of this page and say that the MySpacers are still winning? That's 11 "keep deleted"s in a row! TheJabberwʘck 21:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    So 90% of userbox templates (User:Democrat/Republican/Christian Marxist/Loves the U.N./Pro-abortion, etc.) are sacrosant and can't ever be deleted, but they are NOT winning? Going after the "anti" boxes is a great first move, but if admins are stymied in their attempt to go further, they are losing the fight against the Myspacing of WP. - Nhprman 03:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
    Whatever gave you the idea that such templates are sacrosanct and cannot be deleted? --Tony Sidaway 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
    I personally do not believe them to be sacrosanct and I hope they are deleted soon. But to hear the pro-box arguments currently in fashion, unless it's "negative" (i.e. "User No___ " or "User Opposes ___") they cannot be deleted because they're not divisive. My view, though, is that politically oriented Userboxes are inherently divisive, and even inflammatory, since they inspire opposing boxes and divide the WP community into camps (or "tribes" as I've called them) who seek to save their favorite boxes and debate over their wording and design. And of course, they inspire the very kinds of endless debates we're having now, which are a huge distraction - though frankly it's a NECESSARY distraction, much like when a water pipe bursts in your house. It needs attending to, and I reject those who say "leave them alone" because you don't leave a menace alone, hoping it will go away. - Nhprman 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, keep deleted, whatever you need to do to get rid of it. Christopher Parham (talk) 08:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted, T1 is not up for discussion here. --Sam Blanning 09:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete TFD already decided that this one is not T1.  Grue  10:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Actually, this tfd: doesn't address that at all, in that most keep voters cited no rationale whatsoever, and the few that did simply stated things like "discloses editor's POV", which side-steps the issue altogether. Mackensen (talk) 14:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Indeed, the very strong support for the T1 deletion shown above also suggests that claims of a consensus that it wasn't a T1 are either out of date or incorrect. --Tony Sidaway 16:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    Indeed, both of you cited no rationale whatsoever to delete this template above, so I don't know whether you think it should be deleted because of T1 or something else entirely. Remember, this is not a vote, just writing "*Keep deleted. ~~~~" is not enough.  Grue  18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    In this case a Keep Deleted is a clear affirmation of T1. If we didn't agree that it was T1 then we couldn't very well vote to keep it deleted. You still haven't addressed the issue I raised. Mackensen (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Clear T1. There's no other relevant issue here. Rx StrangeLove 18:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. Just userfy if you must. Misza13 21:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Undelete, or userfy at worst. I don't think that it meets the speedy deletion criterion (which demands the userbox to be divisive AND inflammatory); and, if it were such a clear case, it wouldn't have been undeleted once and survived two deletion votes. (And, frankly, I consider it misguided to declare something no two users will agree about to be a speedy deletion criterion. After all, exactly what does it mean that a userbox is "divisive"? "Expressing an opinion somebody might disagree with"?) - Mike Rosoft 22:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    • So you think it's okay if a userbox is divisive but not inflammatory, or inflammatory without being divisive? Seriously? This sounds most unusual. The divisive and inflammatory nature of the userboxes in question have been established over a long period by the extremely bitter debates that the continued toleration of their presence on Misplaced Pages, an avowedly neutral encyclopedia, have occasioned. --Tony Sidaway 22:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Misplaced Pages is neutral, its editors are not. We are supposed to adopt a NPOV when editing articles, not "you cant edit here unless you have no beliefs." You'll prolly accuse me of exaggeration if you respond to this, and you'll be right. I have a tendency to exaggerate, and I have a Christian bias. I try to be as Nuetral as possible, but sometimes I can't help my biases, thats why its good to be able to identify them. Let anyone who voted Speedy Delete show me an instance where this box divided people (i.e. caused an edit conflict) and do it without citing the deletion review, Self-referential arguments are no good here, deletion review is about Admins overstepping their bounds. Sorry about the rant, but unfounded claims tend to piss me off, I should make that a userbox... (Just Kidding, please dont ban me Jimbo) -- Dragoonmac - o I'll solve it 00:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
        • I might also add that all userboxes express a POV, and most are divisive (i.e. expressing that I speak German divides me from the non-German speakers.) The inflammatory part is key in speedy deletions: A userboxes saying "Non-German speakers are all idiots" is both inflammatory and divisive while "I speak German" is simply divisive. This userbox, given the previous TfD, may not be a clear-cut speedy candidate (though I personally can see how it is interpreted as inflammatory as well); however, I still feel that this userbox in any case portrays the image that Misplaced Pages is meant as a medium through which to profess one's dogmatic Marxist beliefs, which it certainly is not, thus my vote to keep it deleted. Undeleting and sending to TfD is just another unecessary link in the bureaucratic chain--what's the point in discussing whether to discuss something when we can discuss it here? (Though, as an aside, it does seem to be the "Marxist" way to do things lol.) AmiDaniel (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 23:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Deleted, as will all such political opinion userboxes. In the future, it might be advantageous to speedy delete opposites at the same time, so that we cannot be accused of supporting one viewpoint. --Constantine Evans 02:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted Misplaced Pages is not a pulpit. If you want webspace to express your views get a hosted account someplace. --Gmaxwell 03:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted - T1 -- Tawker 05:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)



Archived discussions

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