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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. 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Cla68

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Cla68

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Mathsci (talk) 02:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Cla68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBR&I: Cla68 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci (talk · contribs), broadly construed, anywhere on Misplaced Pages, per AE thread.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• If "prohibited from commenting on Mathsci ... anywhere on wikipedia" does not apply to arbcom-related space, then please modify the wording of the original restriction. That would certainly make it easier to ignore this and any future personal attacks in arbcom-related space. Because of past experience, "arbcom-related space" should include the user talk pages of arbitrators, but not of other administrators.

Discussion concerning Cla68

Statement by Cla68

Admins, could you please do something about this? I think this is the third or fourth enforcement action Mathsci has filed against me. Do you need the links? Admins User:Timotheus Canens and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, I'm especially interested in what you have to say. You helped make this mess. Cla68 (talk) 03:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

My comment was referring to Mathsci and to whoever this banned editor is that he has been fighting all over Misplaced Pages for the last three years. They are both clearly obsessed with their pursuit of each other, so much so that Mathsci was, by his own admission, dueling with this guy from a hospital bed. As far as I'm aware, I'm allowed to comment on the subject in related dispute resolution forums such as here, ArbCom admendments, and ArbCom case requests, etc. If I'm not, then that's news to me. Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Admins, if you look at Mathsci's contribution history over the last few months, you will see that 90%~ are dedicated to sock puppet investigations, blocking IPs, and filing AE requests or AN notices against editors or admins who comment negatively on his behavior in pursuit of this (admittedly real) boogeyman. In my opinion, your actions in the past have facilitated or encouraged Mathsci's behavior. Could you please do something to stop it, at least as far as it is affecting other editors? Cla68 (talk) 04:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Future Perfect, you're an admin and this is your interpretation of the rules? Good grief. To say that I'm not allowed to comment on the complaining editor in the AE thread he opens against me is one of the craziest things I think I've seen one of Misplaced Pages's administrators utter, and I've seen a lot of foolishness in my six years of participation in this shite shindig. I notice that one of the admins below has said that Mathsci is now "trying his patience." Imagine how it must feel for the rest of us who have gotten in the way of the Mathsci steamroller, including Nyttend and Collect, as well as myself. Notice, Future Perfect, that you were the one who "warned" Collect because he objected to Mathsci's obsessive behavior. You helped create this monster, Future Perfect, and to try defend your bad decision-making you threaten to block me? Future Perfect, compare mine and Mathsci's editing contributions for the past month. Just do it, then explain which editor is doing what they're supposed to be doing, and which editor you should be helping instead of threatening. Again, good grief. You have made some really bad decisions on this issue. Will you insist on making more? Cla68 (talk) 07:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Cla68

As an administrator who doesn't frequent AE I'm commenting here. It would have been better if Mathsci hadn't filed this request. It would also have been better if Cla68 hadn't responded to this request.

Cla68 is of course entitled to comment on Arb motions that name him as an affected party, but that doesn't mean he has carte blanche to make snarky comments against Mathsci, especially ones that refer to medical conditions. As far as I can see, Mathsci's editing affects Cla68 only insofar as Cla68 chooses to make it an issue. If Cla68 would decide to ignore Mathsci's posts to Arbspace, and ignore Mathsci's removal of sock posts, would there be an issue? Similarly, if Mathsci would decide to ignore Cla68's posts to Arbspace, annoying as they may be, would there be a problem? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Cla68

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Cla68, for clarity, are you denying that the comment in question was in regards to MathSci? If so, an explanation of what its intent was would be very helpful. Seraphimblade 03:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm in general agreement with T. Canens, after reviewing the surrounding context. It would be extremely rare to prohibit someone from appealing sanctions against them (in fact, I know of no such case where that has ever been done), and comments in the context of an appeal in the proper venue (which ArbCom is one of, for an AE sanction) is broadly and generally considered an exception to a topic or interaction ban, since disallowing the sanctioned editor from discussing the matter in the appeal would essentially prohibit them from appealing at all. What are they going to say? "I'm appealing something I can't name, on grounds I can't discuss"? This is essentially a frivolous request given that, and I would support the restrictions proposed on future enforcement requests. Seraphimblade 04:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Erm...FPAS, you went ahead and blocked? That seems a bit off to me too. I think given the disagreement here, we should've discussed it some more before applying any sanctions. I don't intend to unilaterally reverse you, or anything like that, but perhaps a bit slower on the trigger? Seraphimblade 07:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • The block was only for his actions right here during this thread, i.e. this posting in direct defiance of my immediately preceding warning . It's not meant to prejudge the overall outcome of this thread. But now that another editor has actually removed that last offending post, I have no problem with unblocking him again, as long as he agrees to keep it off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
        • I'd unblock him anyway, seeing as there's absolutely no consensus here for your actions—or any consensus to remove that comment, considering the positions of Seraphim and Timotheus—but that's just me. Ed  07:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
          • FPAS, now that the comment has been restored by others rather than by Cla68, do you have any objection to an unblock? Seraphimblade 08:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
            • I'd like to first hear him commit to respecting the spirit of the interaction ban during these proceedings. He can of course comment on any proposed sanctions and defend himself, but he cannot make accusatory comments about Mathsci that go beyond this narrow scope. Since it wasn't Mathsci but Cla himself who first chose to interact with the other party in this instance, he cannot cite a generalized "right of response" as if it was a waiver of the interaction ban. An AE thread is not a self-produced get-out-of-jail-free card. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
            • To answer to your concrete question: (If they are still bound to the interaction ban, then) "what are they going to say?" Well, he could of course have said (in the Amendmend thread): "Yes, I believe our restrictions should be lifted, because I don't think they are achieving anything and I don't plan on pursuing any conflict with the other parties anyway." Or, he could of course have said (in this thread): "I was only commenting on an Arbcom page, which I believed was exempt from my restriction, so I don't think this was a violation". What he did instead say were things like: Mathsci is obsessive, Mathsci has not been making encyclopedic contributions, Mathsci's behaviour is a monster, etc. No, he is not entitled to say things like that, not here, not at Arbcom, nowhere, and he needs to stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
              • I can see where you're coming from, as far as right of reply not being a carte blanche, but I also see that line being very difficult to draw. I'm especially hesitant there in the case of one-way interaction bans, where the conduct of the other party might necessitate a modification of the sanction. (Not saying that's the case here necessarily, just as a general principle.) I'm also very hesitant for AE to get involved with cases of conduct at ArbCom. ArbCom and the clerks are perfectly capable of warning, sanctioning, refactoring/redacting, etc., if someone gets out of line there, and I don't think getting AE involved is either necessary or helpful in such a case. Seraphimblade 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                • I'm afraid I must contradict you about the point of Arbcom being able to police their own pages. Of course, yes, they ought to be able to do so. But experience shows they never do. Clerks feel afraid of "censoring" participants, and arbs usually reserve their intervention until their final judgment, and leave participants to fend for themselves until that point. Arbcom is notoriously incompetent at preventing its own pages from becoming uncontrolled mud-fests. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• I can't speak for Fut. Perf., but my patience is wearing thin. The amendment request at issue does request that Cla68's interaction ban be lifted. Cla68 is therefore allowed to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban. (I voice no opinion about the accuracy of Cla68's characterization of the overall situation, as that is irrelevant to the question whether the interaction ban applies.) Moreover, AE generally does not interfere in arbcom's own pages.

  I think Mathsci's enforcement requests are doing more harm than good, and I propose that we direct him

  1. to seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any page whose title begins with Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests only from arbcom clerks or arbcom itself, and not from any other venue, including AE; and,
  2. to not seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any other page by means of an on-wiki posting, unless he has obtained permission for such posting from any uninvolved administrator by email. T. Canens (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• I have to say I disagree with my colleagues above, and I stand by the principles I have expressed elsewhere on similar matters: we must stop people from abusing Arbcom pages to circumvent their restrictions. If the community imposes interaction bans, it means: "person X is not allowed to pursue conflicts with person Y", anywhere, in any form. It does not mean: "person X is invited to escalate their conflict with Y to Arbcom". Of course Cla68 is free to comment on the idea of lifting his restriction. But he could have done so without using it as an opportunity for taking yet more cheap and unprovoked potshots against Mathsci. So, no, even when answering on an Arbcom page, he is not "free to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, and before I forget: to avoid another weeks-long blowup like we saw last time, this same principle goes for this thread here too. Cla68: on this page, you are allowed to talk about yourself. You are still not allowed to talk about Mathsci, and I will block you if you do (the way you did in your second and third posts in your statement above.) In return, Mathsci, please make absolutely no further posts in this thread. You've made your position clear; now please leave the rest to others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • So, two admins comment in favor of Cla's position... and then a third admin unilaterally blocks him without consensus? I'm not an AE admin, but that seems a bit, erm, off. Ed  07:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• As I said last time, I think action is needed here to limit MathSci. Good judgement appears worryingly absent from this request, and it is time to stop the cycle of comment - AE - comment - AE. I struggled to see a firm basis for Cla68's Iban in the first place as much of his criticism of MathSci (on my examination) seemed fair - he is obsessed with these trolls and constantly feeds them. Our role as administrators is to limit disruption to Misplaced Pages; I think T. Canens suggestion is sensible and is the first step to take, short of active sanctions like topic bans or blocks, to try and convince MathSci to step back. (FWIW I vaguely support the block of Cla68 for feeding fuel on the fire here too, although we shouldn't even be in this situation). --Errant 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Another option, which I am considering, is asking Arbcom to look broadly at the whole MatchSci issue (harassment, IBans, admin actions et al.) in a new case as the matter is a sprawling mess and needs some tidying up. --Errant 09:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)