Revision as of 20:09, 18 August 2004

Anonymous persons cannot add "neutrality" tags to articles without explanation. I am removing the tag until an explanation is given. (Declaration of interest: Danby is my employer). Adam 15:06, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Over at the debate on "Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4", someone says that Danby is not only your employer, but also: "He is an ardent supporter of the Anti-Terrorism Act 2004, which legalizes--under Australian law--the institutions and procedures as specified in an Executive Order by President Bush, which set up the torture regimes at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. The act cites the relevant Executive Order by Bush by name, and also cites by name the lawless military detention system at Guantanamo Bay, to which that order gave rise. Danby officially spoke in Parliament for the (nominally) opposition Labor Party on behalf of this bill, which was put forward by the neo-con government of Liberal Party Prime Minister John Howard." True or false? Don't you think this ought to be covered by the article?

I don't dignify LaRouchite slanders with a response. Adam 04:07, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A slander is by nature false, yes? So are you saying that Danby did not advocate the Anti-Terrorism Act?

Nor do I resond to questions from anonymous people. Adam 17:45, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am no longer anonymous: I have a Misplaced Pages logon now. Go ahead and explain to me whether the information on Danby's role in the Anti-Terrorism Act is incorrect. Also, explain why you, as an employee of Danby, should not be seen as promoting or electioneering for him, by attempting to present a non-critical Misplaced Pages article. I would suggest you let someone edit it who has no personal stake. --Weed Harper 00:28, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In response:

• The bill in question was a government bill which was passed with bipartisan support. It was opposed by (from memory) one Independent member in the House and about 10 minor party Senators. If this comment is to be made about Danby, it must also be made about all 149 MPs and 60-odd Senators who voted for it.
• It is not true that Danby personally has been criticised for voting for the bill, except in the sense that the far left (and LaRouchites) have criticised everyone who voted for it. Danby is being singled out for criticism by this LaRoucheite editor solely because he is Jewish.
• The bill was in any case a perfectly reasonable response to the threat of terrorism in Australia (following the Bali bombing), which can in no sense be described as "fascist" as the LaRoucheites pretend. That is why, after due parliamentary scrutiny, it was given bipartisan support.
• Yes I have a difficulty editing this article when Danby is both my employer and a personal friend. But the Danby article I wrote is exactly the same as the ones I wrote for all other backbench MPs, other than to note that he is the only Jewish MP. I have not added any material favourable to him. All I have done is remove LaRouche propaganda from the article. It probably would be better if someone else removed it, but whether it is removed by me or by someone else, it will continue to be removed. Adam 01:10, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article has now been protected. This is ridiculous. How strange that Adam's employer (and the only Jewish MP) is the one to be singled out for this - and right after the Lyndon LaRouche dispute, no less. Ambi 03:50, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Take a look at the page history Ambi. Weed Harper 14:39, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Weed Harper made the request for protection. AndyL 04:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Danby singled himself out, by his particularly enthusiastic support for the bill. I wouldn't have know he was Jewish, if Adam hadn't mentioned it as often as possible -- Adam can't seem to respond to a disagreement without mudslinging. Everyone who challenges him turns into a far leftist, a LaRouchite, and an anti-Semite. In fact, the bill was opposed by civil libertarians of all kinds.

Adam says that the bill was perfectly reasonable. Now, help me out here -- the argument that it is perfectly reasonable to suspend civil liberties to protect us against terrorism -- doesn't that sound awfully familiar? Haven't we heard that one somewhere before? --Weed Harper 06:05, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If it's the law you're disputing, take it somewhere else. For what it matters, I was against it. But the bill had bipartisan support, and many people spoke in support of it. The bill was controversial, but Danby's support of it wasn't controversial on its own. Ambi 06:13, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Danby's philosophical roots

I am the one who posted the comment about Danby and the Anti-Terrorism Act, over at Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4. Since Adam evidently wishes to debate the point, consider this:

Jabotinsky has his sympathisers in Australia. The Australia-Israel Review, for example (which now styles itself "The Review"), was founded by a fanatical Revisionist (as the followers of Jabotinsky were called), Robert Zablud. Former longtime AIR editor Michael Danby eulogised Zablud, whom he called the "organisational genius" behind the AIR, in the 19 September-2 October 1989 AIR, noting that Zablud's vision of Judaism was inspired by "his mentor Zeev Jabotinsky", whom Danby called "a much misunderstood centre-right Zionist ideologue".

Who was Jabotinsky? He was the man whom Israeli founding father David Ben-Gurion called "Vladimir Hitler." Ben-Gurion, who had a humanist conception of Zionism based on the greatest and most inspiring traditions of European culture (he learned Spanish so that he might read Don Quixote in the original), fought Jabotinsky at every turn.

Jabotinsky and the Revisionists aped the militaristic garb and organizational structure of Mussolini's movement, and attempted to ward off criticism of Mussolini within the Jewish community:

"Jabotinsky became Mussolini’s defence attorney within the Jewish world. While he was visiting America in 1935 on a lecture tour he wrote a series of articles for New York’s Jewish Daily Bulletin, a short-lived English-language Zionist paper devoted exclusively to Jewish affairs. In the 1930s, most Jews followed the common usage and referred to the fight against Hitler as part of the “anti-Fascist struggle”; Jabotinsky was determined to put a stop to that, since he understood too well that as long as the Jews saw Hitler as another Fascist, they would never approve of the Revisionist orientation towards Mussolini."

The admiration was reciprocated: Mussolini, in 1935, told David Prato, later to become chief rabbi of Rome, that: “For Zionism to succeed you need to have a Jewish state, with a Jewish flag and a Jewish language. The person who really understands that is your fascist, Jabotinsky.” --Bar-Zohar, Ben-Gurion – The Armed Prophet, p.46.

That should provide something to discuss on this page. --Herschelkrustofsky 02:58, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So basically you are saying that all Zionists are fascists? While I am personally an opponent of Zionism I think that's somewhat of an extreme statement. You seem completely unaware of gradations within Zionism such as Revisionist Zionism (the movement founded by Jabotinsky) as opposed to Labour Zionism. Danby is a Zionist but what evidence do you have that he is a Jabotinskyist? AndyL 04:47, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is a nice irony in Herschelkrustofsky approvingly quoting Ben Gurion, when it is LaRouchite orthodoxy that all Zionists are fascists. Danby is of course a Labor Zionist and, in terms of Israeli politics, broadly a supporter of the Israeli Labor Party (more the Rabin wing than the Peres wing). He does believe that Jabotinsky is a misunderstood figure, although he would not defend Jabotinsky's flirtations with fascism. It is worth noting that Jabotinsky died in 1939, before the full implications of fascist politics for the Jewish people became entirely clear. Many people in the 1920s and 30s admired Mussolini without themselves being fascists. Anyway, none of this in any way sustains the allegation that Danby is a fascist. Adam 05:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It may not be my place to offer you boys advice, but I would suggest that you modify your approach in the following way: read the LaRouche movement's views on a given topic before you begin to issue proclamations about what it believes. Start with this,and this. Andy, you might want to try reading my posts twice, to be sure you understand them, before firing off a response. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, you should consider yourself fortunate in the fact that anyone bothers to read your posts once. Don't push your luck. AndyL 22:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Despite your flippancy, I think that anyone who reads my remarks and your response will have no difficulty in getting the point. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:48, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

=Danby and anti-terrorism law

I have created a new article, Australian anti-terrorism legislation, 2004, to provide some background for some of this discussion. Adam 07:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You managed to omit this from your section on critics of the legislation:

The extraordinary success of LaRouche's campaign to dump Cheney in the U.S., echoed by the potency of the CEC's campaigns downunder, has the neo-conservatives in Australia climbing the walls. For example, the CEC ran an ad in the Melbourne Age newspaper on June 15, which called for the defeat of the latest "anti-terrorism" atrocity, the Anti-Terrorism Bill 2004, which legalizes, under Australian law, the Executive Order by which President Bush established the lawless, torture-ridden regime of Guantanamo Bay. The ad was signed by 90 prominent Australians, including the former chief of the defence force, General Peter Gration; the nation's top Islamic official, Imam T.H. Al-Hilali; and Ken Wriedt, former Cabinet minister under the 1972-75 nationalist Whitlam government. It provoked an hysterical freakout from LaRouche's longtime enemies in both the press and among the "anti-defamation" wing of Australia's neo-conservatives. The latter denounced the CEC for pushing "conspiracy theories with an anti-Semitic flavour," and as a "political cult." A stalwart of this lobby, longtime CEC/LaRouche opponent, Federal MP Michael Danby, ranted that LaRouche is a "fanatic" and called for the Parliament to investigate the CEC. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:48, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't count LaRouche cranks among serious critics of anything. Adam 00:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Two things. What campaign to dump Cheney, and what success? Secondly, Gration also later retracted his statement, claiming that he'd been misled, and he was pretty angry. Ambi 23:40, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My answer will be brief -- I'm still preoccupied with wrangling with Adam 'n' Andy. Immediately before Dubya's inauguration in January 2001, LaRouche warned that Cheney was Bush's ventriloquist, and likened Bush to Mortimer Snerd (you may need to look that one up). As the drumbeat for the invasion of Iraq began to mount in 2002, LaRouche issued a press release that September called Iraq is a Fuse, But Cheney Built the Bomb. In April of 2003, LaRouche issued the first Children of Satan report, which made the cult of Leo Strauss an international political controversy, as much as Andy might wish it were not so -- Cheney's wife Lynn, who wears the pants in the family, was identified as a disciple of Strauss. All this began to pay off in May of 2004 -- retired 4-star USMC generals Anthony Zinni and Joseph Hoar approached EIR for discussion, gave exclusive interviews to EIR, and then commenced a very public campaign to dump Cheney and the Pentagon chickenhawks. Since that time Cheney has been humiliated over and over, from his outburst of obscenities on the floor of the Senate, to being booed by 50,000 baseball enthusiasts at Yankee Stadium. But I suspect that the "success" referred to in the CEC release may be the New York Times article reporting that the scandal over Cheney's physician, who was exposed as a dope addict, was merely a pretext to bring in a new physician, who will conveniently find that Cheney is not healthy enough to run for re-election.

As far as Gration is concerned, I suspect that he just didn't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the intimidation from Danby and his mates, unlike all the other people who signed the ad. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:29, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My answer will be brief -- I'm still preoccupied with wrangling with Adam 'n' Andy. Immediately before Dubya's inauguration in January 2001, LaRouche warned that Cheney was Bush's ventriloquist, and likened Bush to Mortimer Snerd (you may need to look that one up).

And LaRouche was the only person to suggest that Bush would be Cheney's puppet? In fact, this was a very common and popular suggestion made as soon as Cheney was unveiled as Bush's running mate. Everyone from the Democrats to Saturday Night Live has made this suggestion and no, they didn't get the idea from Lyndon LaRouche.

As the drumbeat for the invasion of Iraq began to mount in 2002, LaRouche issued a press release that September called Iraq is a Fuse, But Cheney Built the Bomb.

Again, LaRouche is far from the only one to link Haliburton and Cheney with the war in Iraq and LaRouche is far from the first person to make such an accusation.

In April of 2003, LaRouche issued the first Children of Satan report, which made the cult of Leo Strauss an international political controversy, as much as Andy might wish it were not so --

As much as Herschel wishes it wasn't so LaRouche wasn't the first or the most notable person to put forth arguments about the Straussian influence in the Bush Administration. We've been over this before (yawn)

Cheney's wife Lynn, who wears the pants in the family,

What would a LaRouche screed be without at least one misogynistic comment thrown in for good measure. Clara Fraser's analysis of LaRouche grows more and more in my estimation.

was identified as a disciple of Strauss. All this began to pay off in May of 2004 -- retired 4-star USMC generals Anthony Zinni and Joseph Hoar approached EIR for discussion, gave exclusive interviews to EIR, and then commenced a very public campaign to dump Cheney and the Pentagon chickenhawks.

May of 2004? There have been rumblings about dropping Cheney from the ticket for at least a year now. LaRouche is jumping on this bandwagon rather late, don't you think?

Since that time Cheney has been humiliated over and over, from his outburst of obscenities on the floor of the Senate, to being booed by 50,000 baseball enthusiasts at Yankee Stadium. But I suspect that the "success" referred to in the CEC release may be the New York Times article reporting that the scandal over Cheney's physician, who was exposed as a dope addict, was merely a pretext to bring in a new physician, who will conveniently find that Cheney is not healthy enough to run for re-election.

This is all because of LaRouche? Or all because of the unpopularity of the war and the growing view that again predated the LaRouche "campaign" that Cheney is the "Prince of Darkness". The web is replete with anti-Cheney websites and material dating back before this May.

Perhaps, for his next trick, LaRouche will claim responsibility for day following night or for the earth revolving around the sun or for the tide coming in? Herschel, maybe you should get out more or at least try reading some non LaRouchite material. I suppose when you only hear what LaRouche has to say you're bound to think he's the first on the block to have said it.AndyL 22:43, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your Lord Haw Haw routine is way stale.

Herschel, if you're going to accuse me of being a Nazi propagandist you should at least have the guts to log on and do so under your username. AndyL 05:09, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your accusation is misplaced. I see no need to point fingers at you; I prefer to see you hoisted by your own petard. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:43, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

what on earth has all this got to do with Danby? Adam 01:42, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

One does wonder that. Ambi 01:58, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not so mysterious, Ambi -- what I wrote was in response to your question of 23:40, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC) (see above). Then, Andy couldn't resist the temptation to add his own gloss. The whole thing probably belongs on someone's User_talk page. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:38, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"MELBOURNE, Aug. 13 (EIRNS)--AUSTRALIAN PARLIAMENT COMMITTEE REJECTS CALL FOR INQUIRY INTO LAROUCHE, CEC. A call for an investigation of Lyndon LaRouche's Australian associates, the Citizens Electoral Council, has been rejected by the Australian Parliament's Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters. Rabid Jabotinskyite Michael Danby called for the CEC to be investigated by the Committee for its funding, following a CEC advertisement in major papers in June, denouncing the Howard government's fascist anti-terrorism laws. Committee chairman Petro Georgiou wrote to the CEC on Aug. 10, stating, "I am writing to confirm that the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters is not undertaking an investigation into the CEC, nor is it proposing to do so." This is the second time Danby has been knocked back by the Committee, of which he is the Vice-Chairman." Weed Harper 20:09, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)