| Revision as of 03:47, 28 January 2013 view sourceRazr Nation (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,891 edits →Pratyeka: Declined← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:51, 28 January 2013 view source Hersfold non-admin (talk | contribs)1,126 edits →BigBabyChips NPOV and Juggalos: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter: this appears very prematureNext edit → | ||
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| *Awaiting further statements. While this may on the surface appear to be a content dispute, I cannot help noticing the fact that AnnerTown has had started off by making very negative assumptions of bad faith about BigBabyChips, including an admission that AnnerTown believed BigBabyChips was a gang member when BBC was disputing AnnerTown's earlier versions of the article. The same diff indicates that AnnerTown is aware that at least earlier versions of the article are not NPOV. I believe this can probably be addressed at the community level, but AnnerTown needs to be aware that dispute resolution (especially at the Arbitration Committee level) means that the actions of ''all'' parties will be examined. ] (]) 04:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC) | *Awaiting further statements. While this may on the surface appear to be a content dispute, I cannot help noticing the fact that AnnerTown has had started off by making very negative assumptions of bad faith about BigBabyChips, including an admission that AnnerTown believed BigBabyChips was a gang member when BBC was disputing AnnerTown's earlier versions of the article. The same diff indicates that AnnerTown is aware that at least earlier versions of the article are not NPOV. I believe this can probably be addressed at the community level, but AnnerTown needs to be aware that dispute resolution (especially at the Arbitration Committee level) means that the actions of ''all'' parties will be examined. ] (]) 04:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC) | ||
| *This doesn't appear to have gone through any form of dispute resolution, or am I missing something? If not, this is extremely premature, and one or both parties should attempt to resolve this at a lower level first. ] <small>]</small><sup>(]/]/])</sup> 17:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
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| Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
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| BigBabyChips NPOV and Juggalos | 27 January 2013 | {{{votes}}} |
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BigBabyChips NPOV and Juggalos
Initiated by AnnerTown (talk) at 01:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Involved parties
- AnnerTown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- BigBabyChips (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
Statement by AnnerTown
I wrote an article called "Criminal activity attributed to Juggalos", which offended BigBabyChips, an apparent Juggalo. I looked it over and agreed that some of the sources were biased, so it was deleted and completely rewritten, with much care taken to ensure that only reliable sources were put into the article. Despite this, he repeatedly removes the content that he doesn't agree with, reliable source or not. I've tried compromising with him, but he keeps removing content he doesn't like and changing things like "gang sets" to "alleged gang sets" when the presence of said gang sets have been reported by numerous reliable sources including the FBI, the National Gang Intelligence Center, and news reports all across the country.
I've bent over backwards to accommodate his demands and ensure that Juggalo music fans are not lumped in with Juggalo gang members, but it's to the point where he is completely unwilling to compromise; there is simply no way he is going to allow reliable sources into the article that disagree with his point of view. He has even accused me of malicious editing against Juggalos despite my doing everything possible to ensure the neutrality of the article. I'm at my wit's end with this.
As his username is derived from an Insane Clown Posse movie, he works almost exclusively on Psychopathic Records-related articles, and he removes any reliable sources that put Juggalos (gang-related or not) in a negative light, I think that it's safe to say that a NPOV violation is occurring.
Also note that he has not once replied to any of attempts to contact him on his talk page, he just keeps making unconstructive edits. I wholeheartedly encourage the arbitration committee to look over the sources cited in the Juggalos (gang) article as well as the relevant section of the Juggalo article.
Very true, and I apologize for that and fully admit that I made bad faith assumptions about BigBabyChips and the Juggalo subculture in general. I've tried to right this by rewriting the article with purely neutral sources, but he removes these regardless. For example, he'll remove references to the Aryan Brotherhood but not to the Bloods or Crips despite being in the exact same source mentioned in exactly the same way, seemingly because he believes that some Juggalo gang sets being aligned with the Aryan Brotherhood automatically makes Juggalos racist (never mind that AB also has ties to the Mexican Mafia and even some black gangs). I just don't like him removing something that's in a reliable source purely because he doesn't agree with it.
I do understand that I'll need to be investigated, too, and if there's anything I can do to help that, please let me know. Either way, I'd once again encourage the arbitrators to take a look at the sources in question, because I think that that will prove my case more than anything.
Statement by BigBabyChips
This is all very interesting from a behavioral response. I haven't nominated Juggalos (gang) for deletion, though I've expressed concern about stating that there is such a thing as a "Juggalo gang". Insane Clown Posse filed lawsuit against the FBI because they asked for the government organization's evidence for classifying "Juggalos" as a gang, and the FBI refused to provide it. I also pointed out that because popular culture often appears to glorify gang/criminal lifestyle (via gangsta rap), many young people who want to appear tough may claim to be "gangstas" and commit disorganized crime. I remember seeing a movie where mafia members mocked rappers for claiming to be gangsters, that falls in line with this subject. But regardless of debate over what constitutes a "gangster", I don't see any evidence of an organized "Juggalo crime syndicate".
The FBI report claims Juggalos as being "disorganized criminal activity", without providing evidence that there is a "disorganized criminal organization", if such a thing is possible. Another strange part of the report is where Juggalos are noted for being individualistic, which is not connected to criminal activity, and is almost as strange as Barack Obama making a special criticism of Paul Ryan for being an Ayn Rand reader, which doesn't relate to Ryan's policies.
I haven't attacked AnnerTown or anyone else for any edits, so I'm not sure what accusing me of being a gang member is supposed to accomplish. My concerns were about issues relating to WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. To bring up another point, Ice-T refers to his Twitter followers as members of the "Final Level Twitter Gang" - does this qualify Ice-T fans as a gang? Wiz Khalifa similarly refers to his fans as the "Taylor Gang". Are Khalifa fans, thusly, gang members? It would be reasonable to assume that calling yourself a gang member does not automatically make you a gang member.
Also, I'm not sure why AnnerTown made a specific point to open up an arbitration case on a user, not an issue, as if to imply that I am somehow the problem, and not the issue of classifying Juggalos as a gang. Doesn't sound much like good faith to me. Hmmm.... BigBabyChips (talk) 21:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Please keep all statements in your original section - no need for a new section each time you make an edit. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
BigBabyChips NPOV and Juggalos: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0/1>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)
- Awaiting further statements. While this may on the surface appear to be a content dispute, I cannot help noticing the fact that AnnerTown has had started off by making very negative assumptions of bad faith about BigBabyChips, including an admission that AnnerTown believed BigBabyChips was a gang member when BBC was disputing AnnerTown's earlier versions of the article. The same diff indicates that AnnerTown is aware that at least earlier versions of the article are not NPOV. I believe this can probably be addressed at the community level, but AnnerTown needs to be aware that dispute resolution (especially at the Arbitration Committee level) means that the actions of all parties will be examined. Risker (talk) 04:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- This doesn't appear to have gone through any form of dispute resolution, or am I missing something? If not, this is extremely premature, and one or both parties should attempt to resolve this at a lower level first. Hersfold non-admin 17:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)