Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:08, 7 February 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Verb "wikying"

]

Jimbo, as you know, there is article "googling" which mentions a Google co-founder saying that word in 1998. Well, with the growing popularity and enthusiasm for Misplaced Pages (Italian WP exceeded 1 million articles), I am wondering if you could use the word "wikying" (from 2005?) in a reliable source, as meaning either to look up topics in Misplaced Pages or to edit articles. I think it would be beneficial for more people to easily say, "I was wikying for more about some subject and found..." or similar easy phrases. Any thoughts or reservations about the word "wikying" (or general verb "wiky")? -Wikid77 (talk) 13:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• I think you meant "wikify". The meaning of this word is to fit written information to encyclopedic standards. It's sometimes used in templates, dealing with the quality of articles. Galzigler (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • He's not referring to wikify, he's referring to the act of looking something up on Misplaced Pages. Ryan Vesey 17:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
• I've seen the term "wikied" (as in, I wikied it) used in common usage. I don't know that I've heard anyone say wikying or wiky despite the fact that they're all the same verb. Ryan Vesey 17:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Well obviously I can't speak for everyone, but i've personally used "wiki" as in "I'll wiki
    • At least 20 reliable sources. Why does everyone on this site seem to expect to be spoon-fed everything rather than do any actual work themselves? 84.13.24.42 (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
      • For the same reason that they also erroneously think that a handwave in the direction of a Google search results page is magically evidence, without bothering to read what the search engines point to, I suspect. Your handwaved-at search results page contains, in my part of the world: two novels (which don't qualify as sources at all, not being factual works), a For Dummies book that tells the reader that wikiing is the use of the https://wiki.familysearch.org wiki, and six books which use the word without defining it, all six of which, from context, are meaning the use of wikis in general and not what Wikid77 wants it to mean. Uncle G (talk) 21:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Checked on "wikying" but more on "wikiing": Okay, thanks for noting the spelling as "wikiing" (or "wiki-ing") because we were checking for the less-common spelling as "wikying" where "wiki" would be a noun and "wiky" would be the verb to search a wiki or edit a wiki. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Banning IP editing

If you ever decide to leave Misplaced Pages completely (and I certainly hope you do not) perhaps you will leave us a going away present and put us all out of our misery by arbitrarily banning IP editing. Or why just ban it anyway? I know, I know, it is an old and tiresome subject but the pain it inflicts through persistent vandalism that last years, on Administrators, Rollbackers, Bots and editors is getting unbearable. It wears everyone down and the fact is, there is no reason why a person cannot register if they wish to edit on Misplaced Pages. If they are a very important person may be the only exception though I believe they can make some arrangement rather than to IP edit. There is no point to the endless RFC or other avenues. Make it quick and easy. I do not think any good-faith editor would object to the ban on IP editing. Mugginsx (talk) 19:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I would. Just the other day, an IP corrected an error in an article I wrote . Ryan Vesey 19:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow! So that makes up for IPs like User talk:85.90.91.82 who has been vandalizing for three years under the same IP or the hundreds of others, perhaps thousands who people have to clean up after every day. I am sure someone else would have helped you eventually. Mugginsx (talk) 19:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The number one reason we should always continue to allow IP editors is that full time editors are often produced. Had I needed to create an account to make my first edit, I probably never would have started. Ryan Vesey 20:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I cannot conceive of why it would make any difference. It does not seem logical to say that being able to edit anonymously would eventually encourage someone to register. People register for Facebook and Twitter and a thousand other things online. If they wish to discontinue they simply delete their account. I believe it is the same for Misplaced Pages. I mean it is not like one has to give personal financial information. Mugginsx (talk) 20:22, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, there are some other popular sites that allow no-account contributions, notably 4chan. Although perhaps that actually bolsters the argument in favor of mandatory registration. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

People aren't going to create an account to correct a minor error they see. People create accounts with a) the intent of creating/modifying one specific thing and leaving and b) with the intention of editing at least somewhat actively. Often the first of these are just as disruptive as IP editors, others are productive like Adambrower who created Herbert Greene (Broadway conductor). What people don't create accounts for is to make a simple correction like a spelling fix, or a correction to a minor factual detail. If a user doesn't intend to edit actively, it's not worth the effort. Heck, for really minor things, it's sometimes not worth logging in when you do have an account. My first edit was one of those, and without that edit, I would not have considered creating an account later. On a more humorous note, your comment on financial information is slightly ironic in light of this recent discussion. Ryan Vesey 20:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Count me as another good faith editor opposed to banning IP editing. I see a lot of good work by IPs. Yes, there is a lot of vandalism, but IP editors are also less likely to get involved in edit wars, battleground mentalities and all the other issues registered editors become involved with in addition to vandalism. In fact, now that I think about it, Jimbo, can you ban all registered editors for those reasons? Resolute 20:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I cannot remember exactly but I think it took approximately 5 minutes to register. And yes, I had not read that before. I would have to see the statistics to believe that IPs are less likely to get involved in edit wars. The IP vandals may not only because they have already made their statement through vandalism. Yes, I can think of a few registered users with battleground mentalities. There are remedies for these editors. What about the registered user who use IPs as their alter ego? At least we could eliminate that. Mugginsx (talk) 20:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Registered users who use IPs as their alter ego can get caught out, if people with checkuser privileges care to check. So they shouldn't think they are immune. (Some of you know who I'm looking at.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, and I'm not sure where it fits in the above discussion, but on a subjective level, I am seeing a lot more IP edits that appear to be clued-up former named editors who have simply made a decision to edit constructively as an IP instead of with their account, for some reason. Some say it gives them "freedom" and they don't care about the faux "status" of being a "respected" account. However much sense that makes, these really do appear to be IP editors that are here to edit constructively, really not just former banned editors looking to provoke their former targets (as of course some clued-up IP editors are). This "freedom to edit as an IP" is a fairly interesting development in all this. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think there are ways around these deceptions. I have been here too long to believe it can be stopped without an IP ban. I wish it were true but there are too many computer-sophisticated users and they take advantage. Yes, if you have been here long enough, you can figure out who they are but cannot prove it as a user. If it were that easy to stop them, how is it that it still persists along with other kinds of IP vandalism. And to the latest edit, why wouldn't someone want to be regarded as a respected user, if only by themselves? And why would they care what other people think if they are doing the right thing and in compliance with guidelines?Mugginsx (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Because editing an an IP - particularly a dynamic IP - is just as easy as logged-in editing when it comes to making necessary changes, but avoids all your edits being dogged by a posse of disgruntled people with whom you had an disagreement three years ago, and since then have followed your every edit just waiting for you to make a slight slip so they can report you to teacher? Needless to say, I endorse every word Demiurge1000 says above. IP editing also avoids being tied to a watchlist and talkpage - you look at and edit only those pages that happen to interest you that day, without being sucked into the timesink of "I need to reply to this/I need to revert this".84.13.24.42 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think IP editors can be a breath of fresh air. The environment of Registered users can be stifling. I think registered users are more likely to be carrying emotional baggage in relation to other registered users. I think this essay, poorly named, at least obliquely refers to one of the pitfalls of the otherwise wholesome concept of "community". Bus stop (talk) 21:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

If wikipedia didn't allow for IP editing, most of us wouldn't be editing here. Sure, you might have a small core of dedicated editors plugging away but isn't that the model already followed by britannica? Misplaced Pages thrives when there are more rather than fewer editors and even vandalism plays a role here by keeping us all from dying of boredom. --regentspark (comment) 21:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Since IPs edit in secret, there is absolutely no way of validating how many would or would not edit as a registered user if they had to. The reasons given are counterintuitive and do not speak to the vandalism, secrecy, and dishonestly used by many IPs. The amount of vandalizing edits in any one day would invalidate any of these reasons by virtue of their numbers. They are legion. I could also say that IPs carry more emotional baggage but there is no way of proving that either. These reasons have no basis in fact or logic. I am sorry. Mugginsx (talk) 21:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, since I don't understand your conclusions one bit, what I meant above was that many of us would be editing at all because we started out as IP editors. Not sure what that has to do with secrecy or what an IP editor would do as a registered editor. (No need to be sorry. Discussion is a good thing.) --regentspark (comment) 22:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, an IP can also hold a grudge, and an IP can also unthinkingly support past allies. This is what I meant by "emotional baggage". But an IP is also free to evolve personally as an editor due to the absence of obvious ties to other identifiable editors. IP editing is the training wheels of registered editing. Bus stop (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I have now heard that registered users are rude, leave endless messages on talk pages of other registered users, and have emotional baggage. And the registered users do not speak to this? How very odd. Unfortunately since IPs edit in SECRET all we can say is that they may or may not be vandals, may or may not be uncommitted users or may or may not be users who are, in fact, registered at the same time and up to no good. The vandalism statistics are real - the rest is conjecture. Some of the comments make it sound as if signing up as a registered user is like signing up for Armed Forces. There is no other commitment to signing up except that your edits and your comments are there for all to see and you must abide by the guidelines. If one is well-intended, what possibily could be bad about that? If you make a mistake, there are good administrators who are not bogged down with vandals who can help you. If you are not good, then you are made to be RESPONSIBLE. An IP does not have to answer to anyone or to any guideline. That is what makes it so attractive to some, methinks. Mugginsx (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Banning IP editing is not going to happen, but there is a problem that needs serious resourcing and the community should pressure the WMF to spend serious money to reduce the stress. The community should not discuss how developers might help until invited because such discussions always derail the project. Just set up a couple of clever people with a big budget and tell them their job for the next 12 months is to reduce the strain on pissed-off editors and admins. It is beyond absurd that IP-hopping vandals spend years disrupting the community, and when someone says "let's do a big range block for 12 months", the response is always "but that might stop some productive contributions", and nothing is done, again. If the answer from the devs (after spending $100k) is "it can't be done without big range blocks", then that's what should happen. In that case, resourcing should be switched to pressuring ISPs while providing alternatives for productive people behind a blocked IP. Johnuniq (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The nuclear option is banning reading from an entire ISP's netblocks until they agree to remove the biggest problem users from their service or from editing Misplaced Pages. Whether we can discuss that as a serious option or not, I don't know. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting idea. Here is one way that it could be done:

• Implement the technical possibility on the server level.
• Nuclear option means that the only way to read or write Misplaced Pages is with a pre-existing account. No new account creation.
• Some people may come up with inofficial work-arounds such as providing an indef blocked account and publishing its password. That should be allowed.
• Limit the nuclear option to one arbitrarily big provider per year.
• The nuclear option is only applicable for very serious and very long-term abuse, and after the provider has been contacted but failed to solve the problem.
• The nuclear option requires consensus after a full, widely advertised community discussion on whether to use it for a specific long-term vandal. (If several vandals are proposed, use normal processes to decide between them before the final vote.)
• Once a target for the nuclear option has been chosen, the provider gets 3 months to solve the problem, e.g. by terminating the vandal's contract or by blocking Misplaced Pages for the vandal.
• If, after 2 months, there are no satisfactory assurances from the provider and the vandal continues to edit from the same provider, Wikimedia gives a statement to the press to the effect that the provider will be blocked.
• If, after 3 months, there are no satisfactory assurances from the provider or the vandal continues to edit from the same provider, the provider is blocked for a year.

That way providers will learn that ignoring Misplaced Pages's requests to combat serious abuse can cost them a lot of money. One possible issue is that for vandals that always use accounts, their provider is necessarily disclosed. If that's impossible for legal reasons, then the method can't be used for those vandals. However, after we have first gone nuclear with something like Verizon, it is likely that compliance among providers will be high even for such cases. Hans Adler 09:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's ironic, amusing, and slightly saddening, to see a person with an account, who is using a pseudonym and is completely unidentifiable, participating in a discussion where at least one other participant can be easily traced by anyone to the town of Ilford, and yet repeatedly claiming that it is the people without accounts who supposedly edit "in SECRET". Uncle G (talk) 22:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

To those who wish to ban IPs on the grounds that their editing is more vandalising and disruptive than registered users': you've expressed your feeling that IPs are so much more vandalising and disruptive than registered users, so that banning them would be very positive. Are there any statistics that could support your feeling? Garsd (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Probably not. But here is an article by Aaron Swartz that gives a statistical analysis of Misplaced Pages data and finds the site is mostly written by unregistered users: "Who Writes Misplaced Pages?". Cheers!--173.160.176.69 (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Move to "trusted IP editors" and erase hack edits

You don't have to pay me for solving the problem, which involves promoting IP addresses with 100-200 acceptable edits to a status as "trusted IP editor" where many (most) major pages would be edit-protected, then if an IP editor turns sour, then revoke the trusted status on that IP (or IP range) but not totally blocked, just unable to edit the major articles. Next move to a system of erased edits, where someone could temporarily hack a page and log cute edit-summary comments, but eventually an oversighter would actually erase the edits (database-delete transaction) to completely remove the hack edits and related reverts, until all traces of the problem were gone, except perhaps in separate, hidden log pages for historical purposes. Those steps should solve the problems, so give my "big-budget" payment to your favorite charity. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, something along those lines might be very helpful. But someone (a dev) has to do think it through and do the work, and do it well. There should be tools to apply the levels of IP protection believed appropriate, and tools to monitor progress. Misplaced Pages is a multi-million dollar business and the WMF should take funding from cutsey stuff like article feedback and do something to reduce the stress on good editors and admins. After a while, even a saint thinks "Why should I bother? If someone cleverer than me wants IPs to keep stuffing up the biology articles, why should I fight them?". Johnuniq (talk) 03:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is doing all the things related to discussions and to trust rather poorly, and where it tries to address them, unusable nonsense such as liquid threads comes out. Reddit is doing these things right, so let's learn from them. Karma could be implemented both for individual users and for IP ranges. Hans Adler 09:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem with trusting an IP is that IPs get reassigned and are often shared. There are ways we could handle IP edits more efficiently, I'm keen on moving to smart blocks where you block People with the same IT configuration rather than everyone at an IP or range of IPs, that wouldn't work for schools. but it could make range blocks less heavy handed. Perhaps we could also combine this with Hans Adler's excellent suggestion that the WMF try and learn from those sites that are doing this better. ϢereSpielChequers 09:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's look at ip editing from a different perspective

I've been a staunch supporter of "anyone can edit", and so, by extension, of IP editing.

But while reading the above, a couple things occurred to me.

• 1.) Is there anything (and I mean anything - though not someone's guessing, but tangible "this prevents me from making an account") preventing those who edit from an IP to create an account? Noting that accounts (afaik) are free and open to everyone.

• 2.) This is the bigger one for me, and where I might support prohibiting IP editing, depending on the answer: Attribution of edits. As far as I know, wikipedia policy is that editors cannot share accounts. So, any single account should only be used by a single editor. And all edits from that account are attributable to that single person. This is obviously not true of IPs. And this leads me to all sorts of thoughts and concerns, like who should be credited/attributed when re-using an article? If we attribute an IP, are we attributing a particular edit to every user who has ever edited from that IP? And if not, when re-using does the time stamp of the edit need to be attributed too? (Would more than the time stamp be required?)

And from the other side of this, consider that requiring editing from an account would deal with a lot of blocking issues (though of course not all).

IANAL, so I won't claim to understand the ins and outs of licencing, or re-use, etc. But it really does sound like something worth looking into. Especially if there is no reason that people can't merely take a moment and make an account.

I sincerely would like your thoughts about all of this. - jc37 23:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Regarding (1), one that immediately springs to mind is that a lot of people—particularly those with high-end userrights—are very reluctant to use public terminals. (When I had CU/OS I'd have been very reluctant to log on on my main account in a library or at work, for instance; all it takes is to accidentally click "remember me" or to forget to log off, and one's handed over reams of sensitive personal data, pedophile porn et al to whoever the next person to wander in happens to be.) By banning IP editing altogether, the WMF would effectively be ordering at the very least all with CU or OS, and probably all admins, either only to edit from a secure home terminal or to create a set of sockpuppets; while there are plenty of such socks about (including User:Iridescent 2) created for just this reason, it's a fudge that goes against the one-user-one-account ideal.

Regarding (2), the relevant parts of the license are "Original Author" means, in the case of a literary or artistic work, the individual, individuals, entity or entities who created the Work or if no individual or entity can be identified, the publisher" and "You must, unless a request has been made pursuant to Section 4(a), keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and provide, reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing: (i) the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied" (my emphasis). Under CC3 there's no requirement to attribute where the author can't be identified, which is why the WMF terms of use are careful to include liberal doses of "if possible". "Everything must be attributed" is one of the Misplaced Pages myths that isn't strictly true, along with "anyone can edit". – iridescent 00:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

For #1, that falls under "legitimate sock accounts". It doesn't sound that much different than having a separate account for a bot.

For #2, eeee yy uu cc kk uh. gotta love legalese loopholing...

So what I get from this (and please correct if I am misunderstanding) is that if one edits from an IP, they are essentially making their edits public domain? If so, no wonder no one wants to push to eliminate ip editing.

Though, to me, this reinforces the idea that perhaps we should move to account-only editing. I dunno. I'd like to discuss this more I think. - jc37 01:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

1. "Legitimate sock" is a very controversial fudge to get around the "sometimes I can't use my main account but I don't want to disclose my IP" issue. User:Tony1 should be able to give you all the (many) arguments against it.
2. Blame the people who voted for this change. The old license terms ("List the five most significant authors") were a heck of a lot less confusing, but the first law of Misplaced Pages is that any simple policy is replaced by a complicated policy which can then never be reversed because there's never "consensus" to do so. By editing from an IP you're not making your edits PD—for practical purposes, you're transferring your intellectual property rights to the WMF (since they're the closest thing to an originator that can be identified). – iridescent 01:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll admit right now that I didn't read the full licensing page you linked to, but as I understand it, if your re-use Misplaced Pages information under the GFDL, you need to name the five most significant authors. If you use the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License, you need to link to the history page. There doesn't seem to be any attribution difficulty there. Ryan Vesey 01:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've edited as an IP - if you are on an insecure public network it is much more sensible than logging in and one way to kill an hour at an airport. That said we've had so many people for so long call for a ban on IP editing that maybe one year we should test it on a few language versions of Misplaced Pages (but please not English). My expectation is that the loss of new recruits and good IP edits would outweigh the gain of not having to revert bad IP edits, but I wouldn't object to a sensible test. It might be possible that we have got beyond the point where we need those IP edits to build the site, and we have such high prominence as a site that we could get away with requiring account creation. ϢereSpielChequers 08:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

wrt (1): yes, some people edit from IPs because there is a certain clique whose sole purpose is to hunt socks, instead of improving Misplaced Pages. they do this so they can "win at their MMORPG. ™ (The tm looks just like a tilde on this phone, but it`s fitting, nonetheless. 174.141.213.57 (talk) 01:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I have not noticed that, but if it is indeed true that they look for socks and find them, good for them! If you are not a sockpuppet you have nothing to worry about! Mugginsx (talk) 14:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

That's not true; false positives can and do happen, as with any test. The whole "if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about" is a non-starter, as an argument. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

IP Banning (cont'd) Survey of IP editors

I suggest that IP editors be invited, as an exclusive group, to participate in a survey with questions such as these.

• When did you first edit Misplaced Pages?
• How frequently do you edit Misplaced Pages?
• What kind(s) of edits do you usually make on Misplaced Pages? (In what subject areas? In what namespace? Adding information? Removing information? Correcting information? Organizing information?)
• From where do you edit Misplaced Pages? (From home? From an educational institution? From a public library? From a workplace? From a community center? From a mobile device?)
• Why do you edit without using a registered username? (What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?)
• What is your age?
• What is your sex?
• Where do you live?
• What is your first language?
• How well do you read and write English?
• What additional information about your editing of Misplaced Pages do you wish to provide?

—Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC) and 00:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• We can get many answers by sampling the IP-edit histories: By looking at thousands of IP-edit histories, we know that ~90% of edits to unprotected, medium-interest articles are IP hack edits+reverts. When I say, "Misplaced Pages is 10% information and 90% deformation" then IP edits+reverts are one example of the deformation. Extreme fringe articles get mainly bot-edits, and almost never see vandalism. "Crowd sourcing" is called a "blog" and instead, encyclopedia writing is generally very restrictive and requires dedication to editing by checklists. Thousands of IP editors edit just a few articles, then rotate to another IP, rarely returning months/years later, possibly as someone else using that IP. If IP edits were sampled for IP location, then that could indicate activity by regions of the world. Looking at the average word-count of IP edits could be another statistic. I have spent some hours to confirm there are some IP editors who have added one paragraph of important content to each of hundreds of articles. Some major articles (celebrities: "Edith Piaf") were even started by IP editors (when they could create articles from IPs). Like many editors, I began editing WP as an IP editor for months/years, unsure of what restrictions were involved to be "allowed membership" as a username. Anyway, we could sample thousands of IP-edit histories to better understand them. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Let me predict the average answers generated by any 100 randomly selected Misplaced Pages IP editors: Q1. 1492. Q2. 325 times a day. Q3. FUCK YOU! BRIAN IS A SHIT FACE!!! Q4. ANYBODY CAN EDIT! Q5. 321. Q6. Oral!!! Q7. In a house. Q8. Ma-ma. Q9. ¡No comprendo! Q10. See attached link for picture of my dick at Commons: <URL HERE>. Carrite (talk) 04:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That is unfair and rude about IP editors as a whole.--♦IanMacM♦ 10:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's funny because it's true. Carrite (talk) 03:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

+1 to ianmacml. It'd be good form to retract that, after doing a random sample of recent ip changes. By far most is good faith, some is good content too. There is a high level of spam, though I severely doubt requiring registering an account will deter many, if any, spammers. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I believe it definitely will curtail most of the spamming. Mugginsx (talk) 12:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

who do you think is likelier to sign up for an account, a public relations employee who has been given an assignment to improve a companies online presence, or someone who wants to fix a typo? Who would you'll rather exclude from editing? (Hint: the answers are the pr employee is more likely to sign up, and we want to retain the typo fixer. I'm leaving the conclusion on how this relates to banning ip editing as an exercise for the reader. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It takes about four seconds to log in. Mugginsx (talk) 16:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

just yesterday i didn't fix some formatting errors on scholarpedia because it required me to register an account. Those errors had been there since 2011. Who knows how many others didn't fix it because they didn't want to sign up. Had I been promoting my company, I would have taken that time. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 04:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you found an old typo. Registered users also find old typos. What does that prove? Why don't you register?

IP banning and Over-intellectualization

Every time this subject of banning IPs come up this happens. Well-meaning as the computer sophisticated editors are who would like to devise ways of dealing with IP vandals, the IP abuse is just too prevalent and pervasive to design a program to discourage them. To allow the IPs to continue to edit drains important time and resources of good-faith editors and over the years becomes discouraging and can eventually lead an editor to start to distrust other editors, registered and unregistered alike.

Once again good faith editors have strayed from the fastest and easiest solution - BANNING IPs. Anyone can still edit - all they have to do is take five minutes to register. Logging in takes about four seconds, so that should never be a problem. Can we please address the banning of IPs? So what if many editors started out as IPs - who is to say that if they had to register from the start they would not have done so eventually? I simply can not agree with that rationale. The lure of Misplaced Pages is too strong. Some of the other reasons given for using IPs border on the absurd. Unsure of the rules? Read them before registering! We are not children here and can certainly decide if we want to participate in Misplaced Pages or not. If we change our mind all we have to do is stop editing!

The reason I started this discussion off with asking Jimbo Wales to order the banning of IPs was that I know from passed experience that there are too many conflicting interests for editors to ban it on their own. It is one of those few problems that takes an executive decision! Mugginsx (talk) 11:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

So long as there are people willing to spend the time and effort reverting IPs and new editors, there is little incentive for banning IP editing or ensuring that new editors understand our rules and guidelines. I think you will admit that there is no shortage of editors willing to do "patrolling" and "vandal fighting". It should be noted that the stimulus-response aspect of this activity is unlike most of the rest of Misplaced Pages, where there is generally no reward for doing something sooner than anyone else. If you consider that many of the people doing that work are not well suited to actually creating or editing articles, some of those people may leave Misplaced Pages if there was no need for this function. Although banning IP editors may or may not improve the quality of the project -- I tend to believe that it would be beneficial -- any loss of active editors would be viewed as a negative by the WMF. On the other hand, banning IP editors would undoubtedly increase the number of registered users, so perhaps they could simply switch metrics. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Banning IPs is banning unregistered voices: I can sympathize with the frustration, to reduce the amount of hacked edits by banning IP edits, but the concerns expressed in earlier threads are major, common issues, and that is why people want to know more about who are the users who edit as an IP editor. Remember IP editors also post thousands of talk-page messages, and I have noticed some of the IP editors:

• a famous singer's assistant says the songwriter's name is "Smithy" not "Smitty"
• an expert researcher who always has the same IP address in that lab
• a new user wary of "country club" or "good ol' boy" groups
• a professor who "does not have time" to login and see the massive main page
• a person who hints at the truth, but only when extremely anonymous, or
• a grammar expert who finally fixes errors left in pages for months.

We still have the option to semi-protect the highly visible pages, to require autoconfirmed editors, while anyone can post to the talkpages. However, moving to a system of "trusted IP users" would be possible, and thereby the many researchers in their labs, or professors on faculty networks, could easily gain the status as trusted-IP users. Meanwhile, non-trusted IP editors could still post to a talk-page about how page 57 of that magazine confirms what the celebrity told them. I guess the main point is this: some complex problems require complex solutions; blocking the motion of some pawns, knights or rooks will not make Chess easy to play. Blocking all IP editors will not fix grammar errors, nor stop registered POV warriors, nor add sources, nor clarify complex text to young readers of articles. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Simple solution: put pending changes protection everywhere except on talk pages; create an IP "user-group" (and yes, I know that's not the correct technical term) equivalent to autoconfirmed rights for registered users. That way the constructive long-term IP editors aren't inconvenienced, but the proxies, dynamics, and other unsavories are kept out. As a side note, I doubt even Jimbo would be allowed to ban IPs. The WMF would not stand for it and someone would de-founder him (if that's technically possible). Evanh2008  13:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Important people manage to edit on Facebook and Twitter - I think they can manage on Misplaced Pages. With the definitive statistic being given that 90% of vandals are IPs what do we really have to lose? The arguments for keeping the policy of allowing IPs are, in my opinion, weak and non-existent. As for whether Mr. Wales can make an executive decision, I have no doubt. Misplaced Pages is his brainchild and his innovation. He can do whatever he feels should be done and has, in fact, done so on a few occasions. I respect many of the editors here and do not know many others. I cannot find one good reason stated anywhere for not banning IPs unless an editor has something to hide. People who wish to stay will stay and, of course there will always be some degree of vandalism, but nowhere as large as it is now. Further there will be less editors quitting in disgust and frustration. Mugginsx (talk) 15:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I gotta agree with banning IP editing. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks.Thelmadatter (talk) 15:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and the last time Jimbo made an executive decision this short sighted, he caused many Commons editors and admins to outright bail on the project. And I may have missed it in the walls of text above, but can you show me the source of your "definitive statistic" that 90% of vandals are IPs? But even if that were true, that does not present nearly an accurate picture. What percentage of decent edits are IPs responsible for? How many edit wars do they get into? How many engage in long-term POV pushing? When was the last time an IP was hauled in front of ArbCom? You accuse others of "over intellectualizing" the issue, yet you are guilty of gross oversimplification. You are looking for a "fast and easy", and frankly stupid, solution to an overstated problem. Resolute 15:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean that they have a conflict of interest, looking at all the above threads the closest to a conflict of interest is that I occasionally edit as an IP whilst in Public spaces. We do have debates that get toxic with conflicts of interest and alleged conflicts, paid editing being the most obvious example. But this isn't one of them. What we have here is a conflict of ideas. and such arguments are best approached by trying to convince others that your case is stronger than theirs, not by trying to get someone in authority to rule against an argument that you find difficult to refute, or indeed by restating your case in bold. You seem to be assuming that IP vandalism is something that nothing has been done to address and which eventually will drive off goodfaith editors. I and others think that the rise of editfilters and vandal reversion bots has meant that the vast majority of IP vandalism no longer requires human intervention, and the cost in volunteer time of dealing with each thousand IP vandalisms has greatly fallen and continues to fall as edit filters and vandfighting bots improve. You think that the lure of editing is so strong that the good editors will still create accounts even if we make our editor recruitment process that bit more difficult. I look at new page patrol where we already have banned IP creation of new articles, and I'm more inclined to the theory that requiring people to create an account has dissuaded at least as many of those who would have created worthwhile articles as it dissuades vandals, and I seriously doubt it dissuades any spammers. Now if you could find a way to keep the good IP edits and lose the bad ones then we'd all be interested. But the lesson from Conservapedia and Citizendium is that making a Wiki less open to editing can be more effective at throwing out babies than it is at throwing out bathwater. ϢereSpielChequers 15:54, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I just came from dental surgery and still I can smile at this response. Difficult to register on Misplaced Pages? It takes five minutes! The amount of IP vandalism is still 90%. I never said anything like the rest of that so I do not know how to dignify it with a response. I was making a plea to Jimbo. That is why I brought it to this page. Mugginsx (talk) 16:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I know I haven't been terribly active lately, but the statistic of 90% IP vandalism is new to me. Would you provide a citation for this claim? As a definitive statistic, it shouldn't be too hard to provide. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

A citation? It has been said over and over again in many discussions by many editors. It was said above. This is not an RFC, it is a request made to Jimbo Wales on this page designated for discussion with him.Mugginsx (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Translation: you just made the figure up out of thin air and are now getting defensive that a number of people who do know the realities of how Misplaced Pages operates have challenged it. For the record, the only person to say it above was yourself. (Speaking of "how Misplaced Pages operates", why is this on Jimbo's talkpage and not WP:VPR? Jimbo has no authority to enact a change like this, let alone unilaterally enact a change like this against consensus, and if he tried it would likely put Arbcom and/or the WMF in the awkward position of having to block him.) – iridescent 16:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It's a known fact that 92.5% of statistics are made up :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

-Wikid77 said it above. This is a fine example of why an administrator should want IPs banned. Registered users have to respond to administrators or could get blocked. An IP on the other hand, can say whatever he wants and his IP is blocked, in which case he comes back in five minutes with a new IP. Hardly seems fair, does it? I cannot understand any administrator being against this. Mugginsx (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You are describing IP-hopping vandals, i.e. people with criminal energy. They could do the same with throw-away accounts which would then have to be blocked and would probably turn out really annoying. Prevention of IP edits would only help against casual vandalism from bored students etc. Hans Adler 17:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread any further, but I now have to make sure everyone knows that the comment above is a pile of uninformed rubbish. Account-hopping would be is significantly more difficult than IP-hopping. Not only would does account-hopping involve switching IP addresses (via a proxy, or by resetting one's IP settings through the command line) for every Misplaced Pages account the person wants to create, but it also involves registering a new email address for every Misplaced Pages account the person wants to create, then going through the account confirmation process for every Misplaced Pages account the person wants to create. Acting like banning IP editors wouldn't slow down anyone but casual trolls is ridiculous. I have dealt extensively with IP-hopping vandals in the past, and I know for a fact that, had they been required to register accounts every time their previous one was blocked, they would have been significantly slower, I would have been required to spend a far smaller portion of my time on-site dealing with them, and I and countless other users and admins could have spent our time improving the project rather than throwing the furniture up against the door and waiting for them to get bored. Evanh2008  09:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

"Pile of uninformed rubbish" is hard words with which you set up high expectations for your own contribution. Unfortunately you didn't quite meet them. You are describing the need of IP-hopping for account-hopping as something that would make account-hopping even harder. In the context of vandals who are already IP-hopping I find this not convincing at all. Of course an account-hopper must also IP-hop to get around the autoblocks. Did anyone say otherwise?

The required email address hopping is not a problem at all for reasons that I am not going to disclose per WP:BEANS. For the same reason I am not going to even hint at how a general IP ban would definitely not slow me down the least bit if I were interested in that direction. Others will find the same or similar methods once they become sufficiently necessary to them and will disclose them on 4chan or similar sites.

We can reduce casual vandalism in this way, but with the determined vandals we will always be in an arms race that neither side is going to win. Every escalation in this arms race impacts functionality for regular users. For some vandals such escalation is precisely what they are trying to achieve. Hans Adler 14:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no doubt that a notable portion of IP hoppers would become moderately successful account hoppers as well, and I am well aware that there will always be ways for certain people to circumvent whatever security measures we come up with, but you are, in my opinion, still wrong that there would be no net benefit to banning IPs. Very few people are that technically competent, and almost as few have the time to become that technically competent. Even some trolls have social lives, and it takes significantly more time and effort to create new accounts than it does to create an IP address. I am not bothering to actually advocate for banning IPs at this point, as that issue is out of the community's hands, but I do wish that people on both sides of this debate would acknowledge that there are measures that can and should be put in place to prevent vandals being able to edit. Evanh2008  03:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

"Wikid77 said it above." Yes, he did, and his statement was just as unsourced as your own. His exact statement: "By looking at thousands of IP-edit histories, we know that ~90% of edits to unprotected, medium-interest articles are IP hack edits+reverts." What were those thousands of IP-edit histories? What articles? What edits? What was the sampling size? I've edited across multiple projects (Misplaced Pages, Wikiquote, and Wikisource), and I'd say at least 72% of the IP edits I see are good-faithed edits. See how easy that was? It's just as well-sourced as your statistic. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

At least you didn't make up that number. I think I know where it comes from.

In 2007 a study found that 97% of all vandalism and 25% of vandalism reverts were done by anonymous users. But that's not the metric we need. We don't know how many vandals would create an account if necessary, and the key question is what is the percentage of vandalism among anonymous editors. There seems to be no data on that. Hans Adler 17:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

My anecdotal evidence, from my watchlist. IPs are responsible for most vandalism. But every once in a while, an IP improves an article in a significant way, or gives a clue about errors and omissions in the article. Misplaced Pages would be a much quieter place without IPs, and it would have a lot more mistakes and a lot less content. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Other solutions: faster semi-protection, edit filters, Lua-script scanners: Perhaps we need to improve the rejection of all hacked text, and then not only will IP-based editing be guarded, but any improper text could be reduced. Some possibilities:

• Allow faster semi-protection: Perhaps some admins would be willing to have a "vigilance squad" for faster semi-protection of articles where IP editors or new-account editors are hacking the text, such as during high-profile TV coverage of topics.
• Improve the current edit-filters: If it seems too much hacked text is getting stored, then perhaps the edit-filters (like black-listed weblinks) could be changed for higher restrictions in some articles.
• Insert Lua-script scanners: With the new Lua script modules allowing text scans 180,000x times faster than markup-based string searches, then an unprotected article could have Lua-based watchdog templates which warn, bleep or hide any hacked text. For example, the intro text of an article could be sent through a hypothetical "{bscan}" template to bleep off-topic text, such as someone adds the insulting phrase "is a child molester jerk" but the article would show "John Doe is a ** ** **" or similar bleeping of off-topic text.

The list of off-topic phrases could be stored in a subpage of the talk-page or in common-nonsense lists, and then the Lua-based scan templates would rapidly check those lists and either bleep the words as starred-text "**" or just hide the improper words as totally omitted during display of the page. A vandal is less likely to vandalize when the added hack text is always hidden, even though they re-edit to confirm the text is still there, but just will not display through the {bscan} or related text-scan templates inserted into targeted articles which are not yet semi-protected. Only the likely targetted articles would have text-scan templates, not every article. The strategy is to focus on ways to block more hacked text or improper claims, not only the edits made by IP editors. By widening the focus beyond IP editors, then even more problems could be avoided. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That is, by far, the most intelligent suggestion (if possible to do) that I have heard as an alternative to total IP banning, though for the respect that I have for you Wikid77, which is considerable, I do not know why you do not agree with total IP banning, unless you think it is just not feasible. Mugginsx (talk) 17:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I would add to this that the BOTS are to be congratulated and I know for a fact that they try very hard to curb the vandalism, as do the Rollbackers, but it is getting too much for all of us to handle and still be able to participate in the most enjoyable aspect of Misplaced Pages, editing. Mugginsx (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

As I said above the bots and edit filters are steadily improving, and I'd add that if anyone can come up with a specific improvement that would accurately identify more vandalism then go talk to the people who run those bots and filters. But I'd dispute that "it is getting too much for us all to handle" as that would imply that the amount of vandalism that needed manual reversion was increasing, or at least the amount which each vandalfighter had to contend with. My experience is that though my watchlist is several times longer now than it was in 2008 there is less vandalism which gets past our bots, edit filters and recent changes patrollers and so needs correction by watchlisters such as myself. I believe that the stats bear this out, and that over time less of our vandalism is left to manual editors to revert. If we get to the point where the community is shrinking faster than our automated anti-vandalism measures improves and the burden of vandal reversion per editor starts to increase then there are other options which we could look at. Personally I'd like to see us go down the DE wiki route and have flagged revisions on all articles, perhaps if in the future the amount of vandalism that each editor has to deal with goes up we will eventually persuade the community that we need a more efficient vandal reversion system where each IP edit is checked once, but perhaps only once as opposed to the current system where some IP edits are looked at by a host of editors and others are not manually viewed. ϢereSpielChequers 17:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your observation on the magnitude of the vandalism problem. A few years ago there was a point where I felt that the vandal-fighting subculture of Misplaced Pages was about to take over the entire project. Nowadays it seems to be rather insignificant. I don't know if they have less work nowadays (due to bots) or if they are just more professional, but it sure feels as if the someone is being overly dramatic here.

Flagged revision on all articles is very frustrating, by the way, because it can take ages for a change to an insignificant article to go live. I think it's just as bad for editor recruitment as a general IP ban, only in a different way. But at least it's more effective against vandals. Hans Adler 00:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Banning IPs would have serious, predictable consequences. What you're proposing is basically to design Versailles without toilets because toilets are nasty. For example, suppose for a minute you're not a Wikipedian and you want to add something to an article. You create your free account in "4 seconds" and add the thing you're thinking about. Within 4 days you've forgotten the password and perhaps the username as well, so you start another free account and do the same thing when you see some idiot has reverted what you did, citing some alphabet soup excuse in his edit summary, so you can add roughly the same thing again. Well, congratulations - now you're a Master Sockpuppeteer and though you may not know it, there's some goofy process afoot that you have no idea about to track you down and use the cookies on your machine and your IP address to ban you off the Wiki. You try to edit again and you're told to go through some humiliating process, mea culpa, sackcloth, ashes, crow meat, the whole pizazz. The effect of banning IPs and transferring the edits to fresh accounts, in other words, is to take the routine patrolling of IP edits and turn it into formal checkuser work - which in turn greatly increases the exposure of Misplaced Pages to serious privacy breaches by a larger number of highly trusted users. Wnt (talk) 17:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I have forgotten my password/username and got it back within about five minutes or so. I cannot comment on the rest because, frankly I am just not well versed in some of these very technical issues now being discussed. I am an editor and a rollbacker who has never been blocked in the years I have been editing. Mugginsx (talk) 18:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The reasons given here (excluding those of a technical nature that is, as they do at least try to provide an alternate solution), are no excuse NOT to register. Some of them do not even make good sense. I am told that a typical proxy server offers you from dozens to hundreds of different IPs you can use to hide your own IP address. How do we keep up with this? I would still like to see the founder's opinion, if he cares to express it.Mugginsx (talk) 12:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

At the very least, we should ban IP addresses identified as being a proxy server. Nobody uses a proxy server for any good purpose. With regard to public terminals not being considered safe - don't use public terminals. This is not the FBI or the DIA where people have to be available to answer questions 24x7Mugginsx (talk) 14:43, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages already treats WP:Open proxies in that way, though there are legitimate reasons to use them, as that page mentions, such as Misplaced Pages:Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall. Note however that except for specific users with a reason, this blockage affects users who create accounts, so obviously it can't scale to affect every IP address without causing a problem.

As for "not using public terminals", that would be a serious mistake. Think about where public terminals are likely to be found ---- in a library. It's hard enough to document anything requiring offline sources without adding an extra roadblock we don't really need. They are also found on vacations to exotic locales, museums, etc. No, I don't think we should be giving those up. (And I don't even know what the DIA does. Beat Bradley Manning with a wet sock? Write biographies of Megan Rice? Wnt (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The general internet experience is that requiring people to register discourages new users by about 50%. Given that the foundation has identified declining participation as a problem that they care about, there isn't going to be anything imposed by fiat to drive away half the new users. WilyD 16:02, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I quoted a Wiki source and got re-buffed. What is it that article which is so general in his nature and has to do with purchasing items from retail stores, have to do with Misplaced Pages? It proves absolutely nothing about Misplaced Pages's membership. Mugginsx (talk) 16:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "Wiki source" you're claiming to quote, but it's neither here nor there. If you want to be willfully ignorant, that's your concern, but forcing people to register with a website to use it decreases participation dramatically, even though you wouldn't naively expect that. Obviously we can't know what the exact percentage of new users that would be driven away would be (though I suspect we're more precarious than a retail website, as the benefits of registering here are far less than when I'm buying a homebrewing kit or whatever). But given that Jimbo and the Foundation believe that declining participation is bad (and aren't so concerned about vandalism, since it's a pretty minor concern), you're not going to convince them to ban IP editors. While we can't know anything without trying, we can reasonably extrapolate that banning IP editors would dramatically reduce the amount of simple vandalism, and dramatically reduce the number of new editors. Few people are going to sign up for that bargain. WilyD 16:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It is said that when someone resorts to insults, they know they had made a poor statement. Is it I that is willingly ignorant? Your source is a comparison made of online retail stores with different purchasing techniques and their rationale for doing so. You are comparing that with types of preferred editing on Misplaced Pages? I think not. Also, one must ask what type of editors are repelled by registering when they probably would not hesitate to register on Facebook, Twitter, Google, or any of the thousands of other sites that are wise enough to demand it. Are we that desperate? Please show the statement from Wales or the Foundation that they are not concerned with vandalism. Mugginsx (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Now, don't start going off at the deep end, and do try reading The Signpost occasionally. You'll find it very enlightening as to the views from the top. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:16, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Elen. I actually do read Signpost. I re-read this article because I do not remember reading anything about IPs in it. I was correct. It talks about newbies and other editors being treated badly or insulted by administrators. It questions whether Wiki is losing editors is because there is a bunker-mentality and general rudeness of administrators toward editors, (hard to imagine). It goes on but does not specifically mention IP editing that I can find. Did you mean to link to a different issue?Mugginsx (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course Facebook and Twitter have far less users than they would if registration is optional. Facebook's revenue model is based off knowing who you are, so they don't much want anonymous users anyhow. It's more profitable for them to force you to register, even if it reduces their userbase by half (and it's unclear how unregistered users could use facebook). Google doesn't demand you register. If Google demanded you register to use their search engine (or google maps, or books, or scholar, or whatever), they usership would drop dramatically. But they don't. Google wants maximum usership, so we can search without registering. I regularly avoid sites if I have to register just to use them. I gave up on trying to buy a £300 item from Argos because the registration was too much of a hassle. And if I may be a bit of a braggart, I've made a contribution or two around here, something I probably wouldn't have done if my first attempt to help was to a hostile demand that I register. The foundation has made turning around the declining editorship a priority (here). They haven't done that for vandalism (for an excellent reason - vandalism is a pretty minor concern, less so than in the "heyday" of 2006/07). Which isn't to say they're not concerned (something I never said), but they're less concerned. Banning IP edits would reduce vandalism, but it'd be fashioning deckplates for the Titanic out of sheetmetal from the hull. A terrible idea. WilyD 17:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I have made almost 20,000 edits and all registered and at no time did I ever consider not registering, nor did I feel it was a hostile demand that I do so. Did you have to register to get email, or to do banking online? I wonder how many people do not use email because they have to register or how about the online libraries? Answer is not required. Mugginsx (talk) 17:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Vandal patrol - Misplaced Pages the game

You know, it's always been interesting to me that the first solution to any given situation is the rush to create gadgets and gizmos a plenty.

In this case, to deal with IP issues, let's create a sub-group of Wikipedians to "vandal patrol". Time they could spend doing other things instead they spend racking up points (number of vandals reverted) playing Misplaced Pages the video game. And to perpetuate this sub-group, let's create all sorts of gadgets and tools to make it even more like playing a computer game.

And now, I read the discussions above, and see the response is more of the same.

Why is just asking people to make a free account such a problem? If anything, it follows the wiki-way of "many hands make light work". By asking each editor to create an account themselves, they are reducing the work of others.

And those same productive IP contributors are likely to be productive contributors with an account. (Is anyone out there really contesting the addictiveness of Misplaced Pages? In my experience people typically leave due to burnout, not disinterest...)

There's been a lot of talk about changing the mmorpg mindset that's been growing lately at Misplaced Pages. This would definitely be a very simple way to do so.

And last I checked, it's fully supported in mediawiki software.

Do I think it will happen?

I dunno.

Do I think it will help make things better in many ways? Yes. I'm seriously starting to think so.

But, open-minded person I am, I welcome others' thoughts on this. - jc37 20:12, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• I recently took down the user box on my User page regarding the opinion I had held regarding requiring mandatory editor registration, as my views on this have changed somewhat after encountering several IP's who did not appear to be socks and who had very good contributions. Problem here being our defining, core mission statement "that anyone can edit." That precludes a requirement to register, which stops some people. But I do agree that IP vandalism and the attendant need to stop it is a distracting timesink that eats up energy which could be used elsewhere. Though I revert vandals the "old school" way these days, I can testify that the people using Huggle and other tools to revert vandals, whatever their motivation, are doing the encyclopedia a great service, and I salute them. Jusdafax 22:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
• Try trusted-IP restrictions and erase nonsense edits: When I first registered my username, I was shocked that more articles were not semi-protected, and someone misinformed me, "Vandalism happens to pretty much every article" which I found was wrong because rare topics almost never get vandalized. I advise to treat IP addresses as usernames which get autoconfirmed, but with 100-200 edits, not just a few edits, and then protect more articles. Plus, enable deletion of nonsense edits, where vulgar crap is just totally erased (by database delete transactions) perhaps with a quick revert also later deleted after review and potentially logged to a hidden history log, but no more cluttering of article histories with obvious hack edits. Perhaps there has been a fear that a good edit would follow a hack edit, and that could complicate erasure, but often there is time to erase a recent hack edit (as if it never happened) before a good edit is posted. Also, we need to discuss "#If IP editors were banned" as a totally separate, reverse topic thread further below. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for input

Hay Jimmy, can you add your two cents at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump (technical)#a heads-up -- webcitation.org may go dark about the possibility of either a partnership or merging of the two projects? Werieth (talk) 19:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It would be best for someone at Webcitation to talk to somone at the Foundation about how we might join the consortium of funders. I'm not going to have time in the next several days to do anything on this, unfortunately - but it is important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

RfA RfC round two

Hi Jimmy and talk page watchers, the second of three rounds of the requests for adminship request for comment has begun. Please comment with your proposed solutions there! Thanks, Ed  04:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Neglect of a thoughtful PR editor

Jimmy, you have repeatedly mentioned how "simple" it is for PR editors to follow your bright-line rule against direct article editing by PR specialists. Here is "Kat", a social media consultant in your home base of London. Here is Kat properly using the Talk page of one of her clients' articles to request assistance. That was on December 20, 2012. Here is Kat on January 3, 2013, asking for an assist from one of the frequent editors of the client's article. She never received a response. On January 4, 2013, Kat asked for an "Editor review", but that request remains in a backlog, with no response. On January 23, 2013, Kat asked for help from Wikiproject:Cooperation, which is a project you have called a "complex and noisy community discussion area". After five more days of waiting, that plea finally caught the attention of someone, one of the Wikiproject's main co-founders. Here then is one of your "trusted" editors finally replying to Kat on January 28, 2013, five weeks after her initial request for guidance. In my opinion, he provided only a partially useful comment, barely addressing the main share of her editorial questions. Given the lengthy period of neglect such PR editors are routinely shown, it is no wonder that Kat has taken to editing herself the article about her client. This is just one of many examples of the Misplaced Pages community's neglect of PR editors who are (mostly) just trying to get Misplaced Pages to read factually about their clients. I believe that your "bright-line rule" is failing to do anything but add a delay in PR professionals eventually editing Misplaced Pages directly. I doubt that the intent of your rule was to merely delay the inevitable? Do you believe your bright-line rule is working effectively? Kat is there in London with you; you might consider reaching out to her to thoughtfully guide her with some WikiWisdom. -- SimSaladBim (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the "bright-line rule" is the only ethical way forward that works for both PRs/clients and for Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately I don't think we give good enough guidance for such editors to be able to find help in a timely fashion. Remember that I always say that such editors are free to come here and ask me directly for help. But the main thing is that we need to make sure people like Kat don't spin their wheels doing things that aren't giving them a timely result.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Replacing the Featured Article Director position

Hi Jimbo, I thought I would give you a heads-up about a suggestion that I've posted at Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/requests#Time to replace Raul654. The position of Featured Article Director appears to have effectively been abandoned, as the editor who holds it, Raul654 (talk · contribs), has done virtually no scheduling since late August 2012 (apart from a week-long flurry of activity in mid-November) and has been all but inactive since the New Year. The Featured Article Director post is in any case rather anomalous - I can't think of an equivalent anywhere else on Misplaced Pages - and is unduly dependent on one person. I've suggested eliminating it and promoting the current three delegates to the role of co-directors. I'd be interested to know what you think. Prioryman (talk) 20:28, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Poor old Jimbo. There are dozens of threads at WT:FAC which cover this, and every time the odd fellow (including me) thinks Raul654 should be more active, every time the community says "not needed". I'm not sure, but I suspect Jimbo isn't reading all of these threads. Either way, right now there's no community consensus to remove Raul, that's all that needs to be said. Jimbo's opinion may be interesting, but nothing more than that. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, the problem has gone beyond needing a community consensus to remove Raul; he's effectively removed himself, since he's not even editing Misplaced Pages currently to anything other than a trivial extent (17 edits since New Year's Day), let alone engaging with the FA process. There are decisions which the TFA rules say only he can take, and right now his absence and non-engagement means that there is nobody to take them. Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

FWIW I agree that someone who is nominated to be a guardian of the things that make Misplaced Pages great and prominent (e.g. articles on the main page) should be more active than passive but the community have discussed this a number of times and, for whatever reason, believe that keeping an invisible FA director is better than trying to find a visible one. Jimbo may have an opinion but it's unlikely to change the consensus with the FA community. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I've raised the question, so we'll see what people say. It wouldn't be problematic if it was a purely honorary position but Raul's absence is causing practical problems that needs to be resolved. Prioryman (talk) 21:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Speaking generically (not about any individual) I've always thought that it was both un-Wikipediian and unhealthy to give king-like powers to one single-person, and have a process that more or less equates to an appointment for life (or until they officially quit). Of course kingdoms work really well if there is a good king like Raul and they are active. North8000 (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It's purely an historical accident dating from the early days of Misplaced Pages (around 2003, I think). It came about because, if I remember rightly, Raul654 volunteered to schedule TFAs, he was very good at it and his role eventually became a unique position. It only seems "un-Wikipedian" because things were done very differently back then - there was no RFA, for instance, and people became administrators simply on the basis of recommendations from other administrators. Even arbitrators were occasionally appointed by Jimbo without the need for them to be elected. If we were setting up TFA from new, right now, we certainly wouldn't create an unelected Featured Article Director with absolute power to overrule consensus and his delegates. It's a relic of how things used to be done and perhaps Raul's de facto abandonment of the position gives us an opportunity to put something better in its place. Prioryman (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It's been a while since I hung out there, but at the time the thing that struck me as most un-wikipedian is that only about half of the articles of the TFA's came from the public process, the other half were chosen by the one person based on come completely invisible process. And this is to select what content will be given the single most prominent place in the whole Misplaced Pages world. But my observation was that we had a good king who made the process work well. North8000 (talk) 22:40, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

North8000's observation is correct. In addition, I gather there's also a secret list of featured articles that are banned from ever being run on the Main Page. What's on it and who decides what gets banned, I don't know - I guess it would be down to Raul654. I would hope that the process can be a bit more transparent in future. Prioryman (talk) 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Sixteen users (including Raul himself) voted to make Raul the featured article director in 2004 (discussion archive). Based upon his comments over the years, Raul regards this as a lifetime appointment to a position of absolute authority.

Historically, this attitude wasn't a major problem (as he did a good job and usually made decisions more or less in line with consensus). I agree that it's become a major problem, given his continued ownership of a process that he largely ignores, which serves only to impede the efforts of his delegates (who actually engage the community) and other active contributors. —David Levy 22:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I note that the very next section in the discussion you found is "On actively choosing single points of failure", which looks quite prescient considering the current situation. Prioryman (talk) 22:59, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

If IP editors were banned

(Reverse topic of "#Banning IP editing" above)

In this thread, let's imagine Misplaced Pages has banned all IP edits, and discuss what happens next. I wonder if it would be like, "Let's ban all children under age 4 in public until they can walk and talk better". Anyway, with IP editors banned, then every editor must create a username and login. The first result I think would be no more easy spotting of IP edits as potential vandalism; instead every username must be suspected, but perhaps the redlinked usernames could be considered more likely to post a hacked, or misguided, edit. How often would people ask about forgotten passwords? If we banned IP edits for 2 weeks, what complaints should be expected then? -Wikid77 (talk) 01:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Constitutional changes update, please

You're running a bit behind schedule on your plans to shake things up. While things have been unusually peaceful lately both "on-wiki" and in the press, the things that are broken are still broken.

You said in December:

This is the moment when I normally post a bit of a "state of the union" address to the new ArbCom and to the community, but as of two days ago I came down with an awful cold and I'm not really in a position to write up my full thoughts right now. (It's really important and I want to get it just right.)

In short, I'm planning in January to submit to the community for a full project-wide vote a new charter further transitioning my powers. Because the changes I hope to make are substantial, I will seek endorsement from the wider community. (There are powers which I theoretically hold, but can't practically use without causing a lot of drama, but it is increasingly clear to me that we need those powers to be usable, which means transitioning them into a community-based model of constitutional change. One good example of this is the ongoing admin-appointment situation... a problem which I think most people agree needs to be solved, but for which our usual processes have proven ineffective for change. Some have asked me to simply use my reserve powers to appoint a bunch of admins - but I've declined on the view that this would cause a useless fight. Much better will be for us to put my traditional powers on a community-based footing so that we, as a community, can get out of "corner solutions" that aren't working for us. More to come in January.

Would prefer not to have a random speculative fear-mongering discussion about this today. Leave the end-of-the-world doomsaying to the Mayans. (Or rather, to the nutters who willfully misinterpreted the Mayans!) There will be plenty of time for panic in January. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

(Emphasis added.) Are you still planning to push through some reforms? --SB_Johnny | ✌ 01:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and you are right - I'm running behind. I'm about to be in a period of six weeks of comparably reduced travel and other duties, so I'm looking forward to doing a lot of on-wiki work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)