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User:CT Cooper/Floating buttons User:CT Cooper/Talk page templates

Education

Hello I was wondering if you could review this page for me Bedminster Down School and say what quality on the quality scale you think it is. Stub/Start/C ect thank you Mark999 (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I will give it a full assessment some time today. CT Cooper · talk 13:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the assessment I have been using Bedminster Down School more as a test article and ultimately a template to try and improve the quality of all UK school articles. Rather than having a load of one line articles which don't provide much or any useful information or any purpose. Mark999 (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That's a noble goal. The more good quality school article there are, the less unproductive drama over school article notability will occur. CT Cooper · talk 03:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

2013 ESC

Hey, I do disagree with you there precisely as I see the reader's priority from my point of view & wanted to let you know I detailed on the talk page as well as introducing a bits about myself. Of-course I thought the lack of paragraphs seperation is more of a trend, if I would have thought it will be disagreed I would talk about it first, just to make clear.

I'm also not a native English speaker so I don't know how common the expression "take it to the talk page" in discussions. But it sounds a bit agressive, it would be more nice to read "please discuss it on the talk page". It's just sounds a bit like "let's take it outside" when people wanna battle. You know what I mean? Anyway, if it's common & I didn't understand right, than sorry. :-)

Also, thanks for not pushing the automatic "restore button", for noticing the other arrangement & just unified the paragraphs, as the subject you disagree about. Greets, אומנות (talk) 12:17, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I have responded at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013 - first thank you for actually taking it to the talk page, as a lot of editors won't. In the meantime, I'm afraid I have now entirely reverted the changes as there are a good number of problems with them which need to be resolved, and changes to the lead of that nature need a good consensus and should be rolled out consistently across all articles of this nature. Please don't take this revert the wrong way - it is normal practice as set out in the Misplaced Pages:Bold, revert, discuss cycle.

In answer to your question, the short answer is that you misunderstood what I was saying.

The long answer is that the expression "take it to the talk page" is rather common on the English Misplaced Pages. It has the same meaning as "Please can we discuss this subject on the talk page?", the only differences being that it is informal rather than formal, with informal being the norm in discussions on the English Misplaced Pages, and it takes up less space (which is important in edit summaries). "Let's take it outside" is also common informal expression, but its meaning is entirely dependent on what "it" refers to and so isn't necessarily aggressive - it could be the informal equivalent of "Can you please help me move this object outside?" or "Could we please continue this discussion outside?" for incidence.

There is no need for apology though; I understand you are not a native speaker. As someone trying to learn a second language myself, I understand that informal language can be easily misunderstood, as the subtleties of a language take a very long time to grasp completely - that said, I think your English is very good on the whole, being at least level three on the babel scale. CT Cooper · talk

Hi, thanks for your detailed reply as well & for explaining the phrases & way of adressing people. Yes, my English is high level, I studied & listened to it a lot since little age & lived in USA for few months without any problems to communicate. Still, I wanted to adress this issue as non-native speaker so you know I'm not blaming you for anything, but just wondering about the way of adressing people over Misplaced Pages. I just wanted to make sure you weren't respnding angrily or something, & thanks to you I did learn more about communication & concensus on English Misplaced Pages. Speaking of concensus, I understand it as a factor in reverting also my arrangements & I'm not taking it the wrong way. :) I will reply now also on the ESC talk page for some issues you mentioned there. אומנות (talk) 13:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi again, It's Important for me to explain here that I read your claims carefully, also Wesley's. With that I also had some more thoughts I had to share & propose, as well as mentioning other things in recent ESC articles that have consencus flaws for my taste (apart from older ESC articles we discussed before). Istill felt some misunderstanding of my things from your side as well.

I also added some explanations regarding the ESC definition . Maybe I will open a sandbox with all my edits of the subject so you & others can take things from it in case you see something that feats, as it will give me a chance to show my way of layout that I still can't fully express via the discussion page.

Most important, I wanted to say I still felt need to share & express from my side. I set for some hours trying to reduce & shape my comment on the discussion page to reduce it's size as I could. So I wanted to clarify these so it won't look like I'm forsing my opinions & try to "explode" the discussion page-kilobites on purpose. Thanks again for your attention. אומנות (talk) 22:34, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I see. I have responded. CT Cooper · talk 23:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I replied. My bottom line here & there - thanks for your time & explanations. Greets. אומנות (talk) 01:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. I have left another response plus a suggestion. CT Cooper · talk 03:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Doubts and suspicions

Hi Cooper,

I'm having doubts and suspicions after reading and participating in a particular thread (you'll have an idea which one I am referring to). I've noted the person has been an editor for a while now, but has suddenly come into the ESC ether all of a sudden and in a pushy manner at that. The tones used remind me of another editor who also behaved in a similar fashion. Anyhow, for now I shall reserve judgement but being cautious at the same time. How's life been treating you anyhow? Not spoken to you for a while. Wesley♦ 18:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll send you an e-mail. CT Cooper · talk 19:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to check this page after finishing replying on the ESC-Project & I see this. Wesley, I just came to understanding with CT cooper & felt more accepted here & now this. I didn't suddenly come here. I edit this year a lot on Eurovision on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages as well as editing about places in China & I have many friends on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages as a respected peacefull person. This year I became more involoved, watched the articles here more as well & decided to express my proposals here. You are making me not trust you to sincerely adress my proposals on the ESC-Project when you compare me to other people that been here before. Don't reflect that on me. & I just now replied on the ESC-project were you can definately see I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone. אומנות (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I decided I don't want to participate further in the project. I am affraid to waste my time by reading the whole previous debates & give further proposals in the future when It's in serious potential to not be read sincerely. I also don't wanna put you both or others in a position that you feel you have to watch your guard from someone that wants to harm someway. As I'm working so hard on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, I can understand all your work on this project.

Anyway, I did what you asked so far. I put my proposals on the ESC 2013 Talk page, than I broke them down to subjects & than moved them to project page & contributed so far what I thought of. So you can either close the debate if you want or use what is written so far & see what others think in the future. Thanks for the time you dedicated for this as well so far & Goodbye. אומנות (talk) 22:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the amount of time that I and others spent trying to accommodate your requests shows they were taken seriously. We were never going to drop everything and accept your radical proposals from the get go, so I did my best to manage your expectations with the hope we could get a productive outcome. It is a reality on this project that when a person suddenly appears and starts wanting radical change, then people might ask questions. In such situations a simple explanation from you would be sufficient. It is unfortunate that you choose to assume the worst whenever anything remotely critical comes your way - there is no conspiracy that thinks your here to destroy the project. In any case, goodbye and good luck. CT Cooper · talk 23:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The amount of time & replies you spent was repeatedly clarified by my appreciation. Such condicending comment of Wesley that is rude & un-ethical, & your try to defend this, limits the worth of time you dedicate & the demand for appreciation. Let's make a conclusion:

I layed out on the talk page various things with repeatedly claryfing you it's important for me to share my thoughts & appreciating your help. & I didn't touch the article itself anymore. After that I kept doing everything according to your requests & even put forward only just few small proposals on the ESC-Project page, with dropping the bigger issues that I took from your explenations.

In the meantime, Wesley repeated few times he wants to get this debates over with to reach agreement, that shows lack of patience to realize it's dynamic while I even recognise that even if my changes were accpeted, someone else can still come in the future & change again. Than I also saw other arguments of him like on 2012 talk page with harsh-tone with another user, as for him judging my tone. Than Wesley post this comment here that I'm being pushy. Than you take this with him on private-email with lack of transparacy, rather then tell him here to assume good faith on my side & now you say it's natural to still be little suspicious at me, after all my attempts to feel part of this group!

Also, to say that a person "suddenly" appears just adds suspicious about your group's treatment to new people. I'm sure if someone familiar have written long-comments with bunch of suggestions he would have been treated differently & this shouldn't be this way. That shows radical attitude on your group's side. & BTW, I started writting also on the English Misplaced Pages on ESC articles already in 2010, so imagine that if I was more involved than I could have said "were of the sudden this & that user came from". If I wanna make proposals in the future, of course I will do that & can contribute in collaboration with others. For now I don't want too in this frame.

So put yourself in the light of how suspicious & nasty all this reflects on your group, how you choose to assume negative when you even already see that only small critical proposals for changes comes your way - from a user that repeatedly expressed his respect to your project. & in such situations a simple explanation would be sufficient from you, or try to adress me on my talk page to know me better in order to trust me rather this comment here. It put your group as questionable to work with others & accept others critics, & as the ones who push people away. So don't act surprised & evrything you mentioned goes the same especially the other group member.

I Now finish adressing this isuues here, but it was important for me to reply for you just this last time as you have to see how your actions reflects & take some responsibility. Goodbye & goodluck. אומנות (talk) 10:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

A lot of the above doesn't make sense and I'm only getting the gist of it in places I'm afraid. One thing that certainly does stick out to me though is that earlier you were praising Wesley and complaining about how nasty I was - how quickly that changed. One of my favourite English sayings is that actions speak louder than words - you can say "thank you", claim respect for this project, or give your appreciation as many times as you like, but if you're just going to go around with a chip on your shoulder and jump on anyone who does anything you find remotely objectionable, then such gestures are likely to be ignored.

As for your proposals, many of them were completely unworkable and any long-term term editor wouldn't have proposed them - I worked with them regardless. Whether you have technically been here since 2010 or not is irrelevant - you are still new to this project and your understanding of its policies and processes was limited. There is such thing as being too bold, and demanding sweeping changes with only a loose familiarity of policies and processes is one of those. You should have got a feel for things first, then made some suggestions, preferably one at a time. I speak some German but I would be very cautious about editing over there because aside from my own difficulties with the language, their policies and processes are very different from the English Misplaced Pages.

As for your claim that new editors are being pushed away - the short answer is that I don't think you yet know enough about this project to make a reasonable judgement. The long answer is that all Wikimedia projects are having issues with editor retention, but actually this project has managed to retain many great editors - Wesley being one somewhat recent example, despite as I think he'll agree with me, some ups and downs in the past. The nature of Eurovision means that this project does have an added dynamic - that of language. We've had a decent number of users who would rather contribute to the English Misplaced Pages instead of or in addition to that of their own language. While this widens our pool of editors, unfortunately people have a tendency to over estimate the quality of their English, or believe that an encyclopedia can be written with the use of online translators! This has meant myself and others have to be upfront when something isn't working. You have demonstrated yourself why that presents a difficulty to us, as many users simply don't want to listen to it. It was obvious at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013 that you were having trouble getting your thoughts across, and it was also obvious that you were struggling to follow what I and others were saying when we entered into technical details. I was upfront about that - it was unfortunate that you choose to blame me for not being clear when other editors were having no such difficulties and to assume the worst when anyone said something you didn't understand. Earlier on, you were correct not to assume that "take it to the talk page" was some kind of aggressive suggestion, because it absolutely wasn't - it just a shame you didn't maintain that level of caution in future conversations.

As for responsibility, I have taken all responsibility that needs to be taken. If I didn't want to take responsibility, then I wouldn't have given a serious response to your attacks against me and this project. CT Cooper · talk 12:11, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

You clearly ignore the severe opening comment above & don't ask Wesley to regret, I was hoping to see smie regret but apparently you make your attacks on me. All the things you adressing me, are a mirror for your's & Wesley's side of the story. It's true I'm sensitive, but I have a very good reason in this case. For one last time, maybe now my English will be understandable enough for you.

To say I'm too bold only gives antagonism towards you, as if I can't express my opinions even on the talk page - outside the article itself. I didn't demand anything. I just wrote my suggestion. So your entire claim & justification of suspecting me after all my progressing actions is a total farce. I just struggled at first with the guildelines. I already edited & dropped bigger-proposals following your explenations of Misplaced Pages's guidlines & even on the ESC project I went along with your explenetaion & opinions as I wrote there "okey, I understand". & you saw I'm cautious. So when this personal comment above comes after all that, it has no justification & this is not natural, it's paranoid & condicending as a bad representation of the group. Therfore an answer for your "surprise" tha now I'm upset with Wesley. Yes, that's what happens when you say that someone gives you a warm-friendly feeling & than you see what he wrote on you in another place. Furthermore, when you start having a conversation about suspecting me - where I can see it, & than continue on email - were I can't see, is an undeserved critisize that shows how difficult you are being & not trustworthy, as well having your private communications as close-door to the 3rd party.

Why should someone trust you when he knows you don't fully trust him & than talk about this on private email? How would you feel if you were in this position?! & the fact you continue on email is because you know yourself that it was wrong of Wesley to start this here. So this point that "maybe, just maybe", you did something wrong on your side, should be clear for you by now, as I think my English is understandable enough for you.

And as you said, you had your ups & downs too in the group, so I'm not the only that had difficulties. Of course I also don't know enough about this project yet & I didn't adress the entire group, in contrast to how you try to represent this. I saw some of the users from all over the world at this project, & yes the whole group looks wonderful & friendly with nice comments about themselves. It's exactly why it's too bad I don't feel comfortable as I don't feel trusted enough by you to feat in, & to know the rest. It's just a shame you both didn't maintain a level of caution towards newcomers.

Now realy that's enough for me. I won't keep explaining & bugging you. I'm living this page. If you wanna start from new in the future with letting other members of the group know I can suggest more things or that they want to invite me to express my opinions on their suggestions on my talk page, than I would love to. Bye. אומנות (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

אומנות, please could you tell me where I have named any editor in my opening statement? I never named anyone, and you've jumped the gun and assumed I was talking about you. I have worked on this project for 18 months now, and working on several articles, including a GA review on ABU Radio Song Festival 2012. Calm down and stop accusing people of naming calling without solid proof that they have explicitly named your directly. As for the ups and downs, CT Cooper wasn't referring to himself, he was referring to me - even I read and understood that part of his context. Cooper knows that I've had a difficult journey in real life, with the death of my mother, myself almost being killed by a car that ran me over in the street, as well as being busy volunteering at the London 2012 Olympic & Paralympic Games. Its those ups and downs that Cooper was referring to. The wise thing to do from this moment onwards would be to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, another words this debate has died, so no point trying to keep it alive. Wesley♦ 17:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not going to give the answer you want - I don't pretend to be perfect, but I don't think either myself or Wesley have done anything seriously wrong, and it is my view that you have made a mountain out of a molehill here, along with as Wesley states, started beating a dead house. Nothing wrong with being sensitive - it's the fact that it has been allowed to takeover which is the problem here. In any case, I will not be instructed by you or anyone else on what to say about Wesley's actions - my opinions are my own, and I will state them at my pleasure. You have made clear your position, and that is more than sufficient.

I have the liberty to talk to Wesley privately about matters if I want to - the e-mail function exists on Misplaced Pages for a good reason. Again, as Wesley indicates, you have chosen to assume the worst yet again and are now making conspiracy theories suggesting that I use e-mail for "wrongdoing". Whoever Wesley was referring to, you seem to have missed that he said he had "concerns" but was "reserving judgement" - and also he asked a personal question about me, which I might have preferred to discuss offwiki, but in any case had nothing to do with you. Whatever the case, I will not disclose the contents of private conservations onwiki without the permission of all participants.

Unfortunately you have again seriously misunderstood what I have said in places. Wesley has already dealt with one, but another example is that I never said you couldn't express your opinion on the talk page - I just said that suggestions from you would be more helpful if they were developed from experience and that it would have been more sensible and a better use of time to wait a bit. That's all.

As for trust, that is relative - trust is not a right, it is something that is built over time, and I have not known you long enough to build up a large level of trust yet. I assume good intentions on your part, and that hasn't diminished even now, but that is distinct from trust. CT Cooper · talk 18:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I honestly didn't mean to keep this personal discussion but I wanted to see the replies & I simply have to say how you both miss interpret me, & Wesley's question & story.

CT Cooper, you went on describing me as balld & demending regarding the talk page & in regards to suuport someone else criticizing me as suspicious - after the progress I made to feat in & even after I said I will leave to show I'm realy not pushy. It's as if Wesley's freedom of speech is being defended on one side, while feels limiting my freedom to express my opinions without being considered pushy & potentialy-suspicous, that hurts-reputation & miss-treating. In this regards, you responded on Wesley's behalf, so I responded to your handling. Of-course anybody has the right to talk on email regardless, & in addition, & I didn't imply otherwise. In this regards, I also don't ask for your trust & don't know you either, but just not using or supporting transparant comments that describe someone else as needs to be carefull from, as long as he is okey. I think that's understandable as you or anybody wouldn't like it. That's it.

Wesley, as an answer, when you write that a new user come to ESC articles & I'm the only one that came there at the last days & wrote a lot, & CT Cooper also already refered to this matter, I don't see the point of not being honest on your side. I also understood CT Cooper was talking about ups & downs related to you as I also refered to previous arguments here, so everything was about the ESC-Project frame, nothing to do with your personal life at least on my side. I just made a general comment about me, that I'm not the only one who had difficulties here. As for the realy end of this discussion on my part & in an honest-peacful tone, I'll put more suggestions I have left soon or later, & keep from time to time to help on the ESC articles with all kinds of small corrections were needed.

& I'm very sorry to learn about what happened & my condolances. I wish you only the best for the future! אומנות (talk) 14:11, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

אומנות I'm rather upset and feel deeply distressed that you are now putting words into my mouth that I haven't even said. Please could you explain when I used the context "a new user come to ESC articles"? I haven't just been participating in discussion on Eurovsion 2013 talk page, but have been engaging in discussions in other areas, to which I was referring to when I started this thread. Also you're not the only new user that has started to engage in discussions on various Eurovision-related articles, there are others to whom I have engaged in open and peaceful debate with. However, you obviously haven't realised that, and like I previously mentioned, you assumed that I was talking about yourself without any evidence or justification to back up your allegation. I have also pointed out to you that I have been working on a GA review on a different article, as well as discussions on other Eurovision-related articles. The fact that you have unjustifiably accredited this thread to being solely about you, when in actual fact it is unrelated to you whatsoever is just not on, and it would be appreciated if you retracted such allegations forthwith and continued to engage civil discussions, contributions and collaborations in regards to your suggestions via the project talk page, and cease this barbaric escapade and onslaught towards other editors. Thank you. Wesley♦ 14:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

And for the record, the private email that CT Cooper sent to me was in reply to the personal question that I ask him in regards to how he was doing lately, as I haven't spoken to him for a couple of weeks now, and not in connection to the thread itself. CT Cooper has been a very understanding and valuable friend on here, especially as he knows of the personal difficulties I have endured the last 12 months or so. We both know that user talk pages are here for us to discuss editing and Misplaced Pages matters, and not to be used to have chats about personal life. Especially when we are advised to avoid posting personal information about ourselves, in order to protect us from the "outside world". Wesley♦ 14:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Help request

Dear Cooper, I reverted a controversial move at the Turkey at the 1912 Summer Olympics but for some reason the TP of the article could not be moved to the new (I mean "old", original) name. Please can you have a look at that and solve the problem. Thank you very much. --E4024 (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. CT Cooper · talk 23:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

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