Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:57, 18 May 2006

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Crime

We have to remove the reference to the "radioactive bombs" because its only source, an article in the The Times, has been discredited. It turned out that the reporter always knew the full name of who he was talking to, Dmitry Soin, and that the reporter (a freelancer) made up most of the article. Soin, who is the source of the article, has stated that about the only true item is the fact the fact that he drives a black BMW. The rest is made up. He is on the record, with photos, revealing the facts and fictions of the Times article. It has been impossible to find other sources apart from this single, erroneous Times article. All other research always point back to this article and no independent verification exists. - William Mauco 14:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC) Sources:

• http://www.tiras.ru/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=854
• http://www.russkie.org/index.php?module=fullitem&id=9357

I agree that the Times article is dubious and can be excluded. However, I don't undertand why you removed the paragraph regarding the missiles that disappeared from Transnistria. That story is not connected to the Times article and has been validated by the appearence of some of the missile throughout Ossetia and Chechnya. TSO1D 16:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

You are right. We just need to include citations (this can be done in the References section) so that wikipedia doesn't get the reputation of being a purveyor of propaganda for one side or the other. This is extremely important in such a hotly contested topic. -William Mauco 23:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Dmitry Soin teaches at Tiraspol's university. He is also a buddhist. On his homemade Tibet-Transnistria website, he promotes vegetarianism and abstaining from alcohol. -William Mauco 23:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course, everyone know that The Times is just a propaganda rag sheet which publishes everything. Random sites in Russian are soooo much more reliable and trustworthy. bogdan 22:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

LOL, Bogdan I had the same immediate thought when I saw the changes. Nevertheless, I did some research and found that independent and credible sources confirm the fact that the Times story has some dubious aspects. TSO1D 03:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Moldova's prime minister keeps calling Transnistria a weapons exporter, among other things recycling the claim that Transnistria supplies or supplied Chechnya. His claims were immediately refuted by those in the know; the official participants in the fighting in Chechnya: No arms from Transnistria or from the former Soviet stockpile have been found anywhere in Chechnya, ever. An official spokesperson in Chechnya called the Moldovan statements politically motivated. - Mauco 12:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Source: http://www.tiras.ru/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=135

Crime: Missing missile launchers

Please help find sources for our claim that 70 surface-to-air missile launchers disappeared and our implication that they were sold. That these same launchers later appeared in Ossetia or Chechnya sounds like kompromat. Let's remove this information and add it back in when/if we obtain reliable citations. - William Mauco 22:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article from the washington post: http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040118-103519-5374r.htm TSO1D 03:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! However, it doesn't quite convince on the missile point. But we can use it as a reference and those who want to dig further can then determine for themselves to what extent they believe the writer's claims. I think it works - 85.214.29.234 15:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I politely disagree. For Misplaced Pages to be credible we need better references than Oazu Nantoi's say-so to The Washington Times. Nantoi is a Romanophile warmonger whose brief career as an advisor to Moldova's president ended because he was too radical. He has an axe to grind. These days, he makes a living as a "talking head" from a private Chisinau-based NGO (called IPP) stirring up hatred against Transnistria by consistently shooting down every settlement proposal from OSCE, from Ukraine, and everywhere else.
The Washington Times is only slightly more credible. Founded as the propaganda arm for fanatic cult leader Sun Myung Moon, it is a documented purveyor of planted misinformation. David Brock, author of Blinded by the Right, writes about his work for The Washington Times and how he "made up stories ... that could never be corroborated." This former employee is on the record for calling the Washington Times' journalistic ethics "close to nil". And from Misplaced Pages: Salon.com (, ) and The Daily Howler (examples: , , , ) have published scathing analyses of what they say are serious factual errors and examples of bias in the paper's news coverage.
The article we reference is classic smear: Almost every "fact" comes from unnamed sources speaking "on the condition of anonymity". Researching these claims just leads to more unnamed sources and sometimes to claims which official Moldova then refuses to back up, document, comment on, or share with journalists. Serious neutral research actually reveals the exact opposite. For instance, Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty quotes western diplomats who call reports of massive arms and drug smuggling "wildly exaggerated." http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/05f3742a-1c2d-4e1a-a57f-0e9780549795.html - William Mauco 16:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Although you might disagree with the newspaper's stance on various issues, you cannot simply deny the validity of the missile article based on this. The author, George Jahn is accredited by the Associated Press. The information is also backed by other sources, I remember multiple credible sites acknowledging this, however I have not found those sources yet. In any case, you cannot remove the infomration simply because you don't like it. As for Nantoi, he is a respected analyst, and whatever disagreements you may have with his statements, your descpription of him is greatly exaggerated. TSO1D 18:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Nantoi certainly has his fan club and I am obviously not part of it. I see his public statements as clearly biased and as rarely matching the available evidence. For non-English (internal and Romanian consumption) he is even more rabid. Ask OSCE officials what they think of his "contribution" to the Transnistrian settlement process. - William Mauco 19:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Here, I found another link detaling the incident, this time from NATO report: << The Ukraine manifests a more and more open interest for the North regions of Transnistria, which have a prevalent Ukrainian population. In an unexplained way there have been registered cases of shipping through the frontier and territory of the Ukraine armament produced in Transnistria and which has been sold in other conflict regions (for instance Grad type rocket launchers Abkhazia). In 1999 the mediators from the Ukraine proposed a bill that was going to be approved by Kishinau and Tiraspol. >> http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/99-01/mardarovici.pdf

I am glad to see that we can find more references, but this one is hardly a better one. Ion Mardarovici's report from Chisinau, Moldova makes allegations to weapons which were apparently produced in Transnistria, and not to the 70 missing missile launchers from an old Soviet stockpile which is the uncited claim that we are dealing with here. His claim of "registered cases" is not footnoted or referenced, nor are we told who registered these cases, when or where. Instead, half of the report consists of interviews with school children and pro-Moldovan nationalists while the Transnistrian POV is not given equal treatment. At least The Washington Times article was more objective because it included the true statement that officials in Transnistria denied the allegations. So to safeguard the quality standards of the encyclopedia, let's keep looking for more facts on which to base our claims, please. - William Mauco 19:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I have re-writted parts of the Crime section, removing statements that I could not back by credible sources and providing sources for the existing information. TSO1D 19:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It is much better now. But if we include information that we can not fully source, then we need to at least preface it with the fact that these are the claims of analysts and that Transnistria maintains a consistent denial of such claims. - William Mauco 19:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Earlier today, someone else rewrote the paragraph as follows:
"According to a former Moldovan official, a cache of 70 surface-to-air missile launchers disappeared from a former Soviet stockpile some years ago. Moldova's government declined comment. Officials in Transnistria denied the allegations."
That sums up the position of all sides: Nantoi, Moldova's government and Transnistria's government. It also matches the content of the reference from Washington Times, which is full of "anonymous sources" but which at least also allows Transnistria to state their side. It is a more accurate representation of the position of the involved parties than the current sentence: "Recently, a cache of surface-to-air missile launchers as well as other weapons disappeared from a former Soviet stockpile and officials are unable to account for their whereabouts."
- William Mauco 19:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Gas debts

It is misleading to state that Transnistria gets free gas from Russia while Moldova had to pay for it. The truth is that they both get gas on credit: Both Transnistria and Moldova are still supplied (neither country is currently cut off from Russian supplies) and both countries maintain a debt. Moreover, the paragraph previously recycled deliberately wrong facts circulated by Vladimir Socor and claimed that Transnistria's debt to Russian company Gazprom was "more than $1 billion" when it is in fact only half that. - William Mauco 14:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Sources: Official Gazprom press conferences, http://www.regnum.ru/english/615852.html

Discuss changes before making them

William Mauco, please motivate the removal of each paragraph.

For example, why did you removed this:

Since partition, Transnistria has served as a haven for smugglers and traffickers in fuels, arms, and other contraband, as well as trafficking in human beings. A recent report funded by the British Department for International Development named Transnistria "a smuggling company masquerading as a state".

It has (had?) a BBC reference. bogdan 18:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Bogdan - I am not sure that this was done by me. I also don't remember seeing a reference to the claim. But I agree with you that anyone who edits should use the Talk pages to explain their reasons and why he or she thinks that their edits are making the article better. That's what the disclaimer on the top of this page says: ...discuss substantial changes here before making them. - William Mauco 19:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Census ethnonyms

If both names, Moldovan and Romanian, are to be used it makes sense to keep them together. The census only had one choice for this ethnic group from what I gather, therefore they should be kept under one category. Saying Moldovan and Romanian implies that both were distinct choices that were presented to the populace and that they were combined in this presentation. I don't believe that is accurate, otherwise the "Romanians" would have been listed under other. The category should read Moldovan/Romanian. TSO1D 22:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to get confirmation on this for you. I seem to recall that the form did distinguish between Moldavian (Moldovan) and Romanian. I know for a fact that it had fields for jews, Bulgarians, Gagauz, Poles, Tatars, etc. - William Mauco 00:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, let's keep in mind that for many readers even the initial casing of the word means something. For instance, when I hear about "Romanians" I normally think of this a specific nationality (citizen of Romania) whereas "romanians" is a more generic terms; an ethnic group. Likewise: Moldovans (citizens of the Republic of Moldova) and moldavians (ethnic group). - William Mauco 00:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

If the form did in fact distinguish between Moldovan and Romanian, then the category Moldovan should not have Romanian next to it in any form as the Romanian data would be included in the "others" category. As for the case of the word, in the English language all proper nouns are capitalized regardless of their meaning. TSO1D 00:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree: "Romanian", in this context, would rank alongside Gagauz, Poles, etc. Please note that I don't yet have the form for you, though. - William Mauco 02:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I got the confirmation. In the 2004 population census of Transnistria in the column "nationality" there were no preset fields (what the government called "in advance set variants") of ethnic identification. Census workers wrote down whatever nationality was given by the inhabitants. A small number defined their nationality as "Romanian". For statistical purposes, this was then listed under "Other". The form itself did not have fields for Jews, Bulgarians, Gagauz, only the detailed analysis of the resulting output (the report) did, and in the summary these - like Romanian - were then put under other. There was a clear official distinction between Moldovan (called Moldavian in Transnistria) and Romanian, both by the inhabitants themselves and by the census takers. For comparison "Moldavian" in 2004 ranked 31.9% or 176,958 people. - Mauco 10:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you Mauco for confirming this. In that case the current categories are logical TSO1D 20:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

new english version of name

I see that the official website of the President now uses the name Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic on its English language page , rather than Trans-. Presumably this is the preferred official English version so I have added this and created a redirection page. If anyone knows when this usage began in official literature, please add the date. Jameswilson 03:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the name of the country should remain Transnistrian Moldovan Republic. I believe this is the preferred English variant. Others variations such as the "Moldovan Republic of Transnistria", the "Trans-Dniester Moldovan Republic", or "Pridnestrovian Moldovan Repulbic" are used by less official sources. Only the Presidential site of the TRM uses the Pridnestrovian... version which simply is an incomplete translation from Russian. TSO1D 03:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Why did you revert? Is the "official" name now PMR or not? Jameswilson 03:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

We crossed - What about other official sites? Have they changed. BTW why does the President prefer Moldavian not Moldovan? Jameswilson 03:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I have seen various contradictory versions on the TMR's official sites, however most are in Russian anyway so it is not possible to implement that information. As for the Moldavian question, he prefers using this as the term stemms directly from Russian (at least during Soviet times), which is not the currently internationally accepted version of the term. TSO1D 03:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, we'd better wait until they settle on one version then. I think de facto in the UK press, Moldavia(n} is used for Iaşi, etc and Moldova{n} for Chişinau, etc. The first time I saw the word Moldova in English was for a football match v England in the mid-90s. I think up till then both were called Moldavia here. But the distinction seems to have stuck. Jameswilson 03:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

It is moving in the direction of PMR in preference of all other names, but it is too early to call so we should not adopt the change yet in my opinion. Officially, as per the authorized English translation of the Constitution, the name is "Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic". This is also the name used in rulings of parliament (the Supreme Soviet). The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is mixed: Officially they use "Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica", in Russian transliteration, and sometimes unofficially they use "Transdniestria". What is clear is that few official organs hardly ever use the word "Transnistria". It is considered Romanian. As long as there is still a conflict still going on they feel that to adopt the word of the "other side" is a sign a giving in. Likewise, the "other side" never calls Transnistria by the official name of its constitution. They either say Transnistria, or, very often, just "the left bank of the Dniester".
Apart from the constitution, another authorative source is the country's official "Atlas". It has this to say: In foreign sources, the name Transnistria is applied, meaning the region located across the Nistru River, which is not really used in the region itself. The official name of the region adopted by the regional state authorities is Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublika or, in short, Pridnestrovie. Source: http://tdsu.idknet.com/region/english/ - William Mauco 12:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Update to the above: It's official. The longform name is Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica and the official shortform name is Pridnestrovie. See О ТPАНСЛИТЕPАЦИИ И ТОПОНИМИКЕ НАИМЕНОВАНИЙ available on both pridnestrovie.net and zakon-pmr - Mauco 20:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The page makes is look as though the TMR government was complying with a UN recommendation to standardize the name. This is of course ridiculous as the UN certainly does not recognize the Transnistrian government in any form. For this reason on official UN pages as well as those of other organizations, the TMR "law" will have no effect and I believe that the variant used by the government of Moldova will continue to be used in all international documents. TSO1D 20:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Within the territory of Transnistria, at least, it is a fact that the laws and edicts of the Transnistria's parliament and president are in force. Internationally, everyone else are of course free to do what they want. Official country name falls under the category of state symbols (like flag, coat of arms, etc.) If we take their flag edict at face value, at least as it concerns usage within the territory which is under the control of the Tiraspol authorities, then we must also give the same consideration to their name edict. Maybe they got carried away a bit in their phrasing but it is still the law there, whether we like it or not. - Mauco 21:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what Misplaced Pages's policy for such situations is. Your argument makes sense, if that is their official name then it would be used by that form. However in my view the law is a bit bizare; I don't understand how they state that the English variant of the name is simply the transliteration of the Russian version. If I am not mistaken, Transnistria has three official languages and the English variation of the region has never been Pridnestrovia but usually Transdiester or Transnistria (not from Romanian but from Latin). For this reason I believe that although the TMR might translate official documents using this name, no international institutions will continue using Transnistria and I don't believe we should change the name yet (the Russian transliteration does currently correspond to their proposed version). TSO1D 22:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I will research this, as well as Misplaced Pages practices. I agree with you that it is not right to change the name, as least not yet. - Mauco 22:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Results of the research: Two apparently conflicting conclusions. On the one hand, the closest analogy seems to be Burma/Myanmar with Burma, rather than the official name Myanmar, being used by bodies and states who do not recognize the ruling military junta. Even so, Misplaced Pages prefers and consistently uses the official name given by the government currently in control of the region, disregarding the usage of some of the largest countries in the world (such as the United States) which for political reasons insist on using Burma. Taken to Transnistria, this would indicate that we should use Pridnestrovie rather than Transnistria since that is the official English language name for the country as per the decree of a government which, although not recognized by the U.S. and other countries, is recognized as being in control of the region. Then again, according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize. The truth is that the "majority of English speakers" recognize neither Transnistria nor Pridnestrovie but that between the two names, Transnistria is nevertheless the most widely used in English. This indicates that we should stick with Transnistria. - Mauco 16:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. TSO1D 22:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Basically, the twin conclusions means that we should stick with Transnistria (common English name) and that we should also mention Pridnestrovie (official shortform) / Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica (official longform) / PMR (official abbreviation). These, probably with Transnistria first, should be the dominant names used in the article. We should change other names (MRT, TMR, DMR, etc) since they are neither the most common English names nor are they official names, and therefore they fall into neither of the two naming conventions used for Misplaced Pages. We can keep them in a paragraph about "other names" but they should not appear elsewhere. - Mauco 13:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the other abbreviations should be changed to PMR. TSO1D 20:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's what I've done as a result of the above: Instead of just deleting a bunch of stuff, I have moved everything into a new article Names for Transnistria (not too happy with this name of the article, however, so feel free to change it). This allowed me to clean some of the auxiliary information from the main Transnistria article, so that it now only focuses on the two names that there is consensus on: Transnistria as the main name, and then the official names (long, short and abbreviation) mentioned prominently as well. - Mauco 22:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Moldovans and Romanians in Censuses

In Soviet census they were counted separately. CIA in their factbook denying existence of "moldovans" listed them all as "romanians", hence this 40% copied everywhere in internet. For Transnistrian census you see yourself at the picture the number is for Moldovans. Where are romanians I don't know. You find it out then correct the text. No guesses, please and no childish revert wars. I explained my changes in edit summaries. `'mikka (t) 17:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

well... A part of the people who are officially Moldovans identify themselves as Romanians. bogdan 17:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I could not find any convincing evidence regarding the methods used in the 1989 census. Assuming that Moldovans and Romanians were counted separately, logically the Romanians would have been classified under "others" not joined with the Moldovan category. However I am not sure of this. Nevertheless, if that were the case, then the category would read just Moldovans anyway, it would not mention Romanians in any form. Do you believe that the CIA factbook joined the Moldovan and Romanian categories and wrote that as Moldovan/Romanian? If that is how they did it and we are using their results it only makes sense to use the same categories. Of course if we would have the actual data from the census (which I am looking for across the web) then we could re-arrange the data as we would like. But I could not find any orginal sources, and virtually all presentations that I have found list the majority ethnic group as Moldovan/Romanian or simply ethnic Romanian. Nevertheless, as we are not fully aquainted with their methodology but are using their sources it is logical to render the data as it was found on that source.

In the Transnistrian census, it makes sense to only leave the Moldovan variant as we have direct access to the (preliminary?) results and that was the given category.

TSO1D 17:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's a source on this census:

John Mackinlay, Peter Cross (editors) Regional Peacekeepers, United Nations University Press. ISBN 9280810790.

bogdan 17:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, this is interesting and could be added to the article:

same source.

bogdan 17:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Once again, : in 1989 USSR Census Moldovans and Romanians were separate officially recognized nationalities. The whole current fuss with Moldovan language is based on this. I am totally surprized you are questioning this. CIA dismissed the notion of "Moldovans" for obvious political POV. Again, I am surprized that you don't know about this anti-Sovietism of CIA.

For Transnistria, you have a picture in the article. Unless you have information that says something different, the text and the picture must match. If you will find an additional info in reputable sources, you are welcome to make changes. `'mikka (t) 18:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As for "part of the people who are officially Moldovans identify themselves as Romanians", you are welcome to add a comment after the numbers. I am sure you can find plenty of reputable referencess to support this clarification. `'mikka (t) 18:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Mikka I don't understand how the "Moldovan language" fuss is related to the 1989 census. Please enlighten me. As regards the separate categories, if that would have been the case then why are Romanians listed under the same category as Moldovans on this page. What I mean is the data was collected by the Soviet government, not the CIA, thus if we were to look at the original source we would expect to find the majority of the population under Moldovan. My question is was the original number for Moldovans 40? In that case we can assume that the number of Romanians was negligibly small and thus only leave the name Moldovan. Or, on the other hand, did the CIA combine data for Moldovans and Romanianas (which would probably have been under one percent) in order to come up with the 40%? TSO1D 19:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The "language fuss" is related to separate nationalities issue. Since CIA boldly called them "Romanians", it is only logical to assume that the combined "real" romanians and moldovans into one number. 1989 Soviet data may be purchased online on CD for $300 or looked up in Russian/Moldovan central libraries for free. The number "40" is rounded and I've seen slightly different numbers as well. The number of "Romanians" in the whole Moldova was reported 2.1% in 1989. It is very reasonable to assume that in the area of Transnistria the fraction was under 1%, and the number "40%" is as good as any other at the moment when we don't have exact official data. `'mikka (t) 19:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case shouldn't the category better read just "Moldovans" and not mention Romanians at all? TSO1D 19:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You'll become a mortal enemy for Romanian wikipedians, just like me. On a serious note, you obviosly don't understand how things worked in the Soviet Union. You did not "own" your ethnicity. Your nationality was written in your passport in the infamous "Fifth Record" ("pyataya grafa"; post-Soviet Jews remember this quite well), and saying otherwise was criminal offense: "forging of official data". Of course, 1989 was not 1970, but still people had habits of being cautious. `'mikka (t) 19:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

"result of the centrally promoted immigration of skilled labour"

Now that we are here, allow me some more Sovietic rant. Today this immigration is protrayed as a vicious Russification of poor oppressed Baltic States, Ukrainians, Moldovans, etc.. In fact, it was a policy of industrialization of backwards rural periphery in a brainless bureaucratic way. Different places differ, let me tell you about Moldova. A famous winery for the whole Soviet Union. Endless vineyards. Despite total collectivization, people have private vineyards, also steal a little from kolkhoz/sovkhoz and have a great time. Now, a plant is being built. Can you find an idiot who would want to sweat in a greasy noisy place instead of tending sunny Feteasca? Of course, Soviets had to transfer workforce from Russia. `'mikka (t) 20:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Cool, Mikka found the Promised Land. It's Moldova. You should found a sect and earn some good money. And promote tourism to Moldova, too. :) Dpotop 21:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is not Moldova. It was Moldavian SSR, and only in eyes of Soviet people. Just like it was Georgian SSR, where 7 orange trees and 3 lemon trees and a patch of roses would make a person rich (by Soviet standards). Instead of poking fun at me, you'd better try and understand what I was saying. But you probably already know what you need to know about all past, present and future. Good luck. `'mikka (t) 21:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As for promoting tourism in Moldova, do you happen to know that in Soviet times virtually all excellent sorts of grape were intentionally destroyed in the fight against alcoholism? I don't know hoiw the recovery goes, but what Moldovan wine I see imported into the USA today is all "ink", as we called it in Soviet times, despite all these old famous names. So I guess Moldova is not Napa Valley now. `'mikka (t) 21:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, your "innocent" arguments look very much like the racist arguments on Black Africa: "It's so hot there, that they need nothing, just pick some bananas and eat them. Europeans are needed to do the real work." This is why Soviet propaganda was so vicious, because it made decent individuals like you (and others) believe such nonsense. And this is why we have had those arguments in the past. Dpotop 12:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Colleague, each racist propaganda has a grain of truth. If you don't want a cell phone and a TV set, you can right-oh pick a banana and be happy. And surprisingly many people don't see anything bad in banana happiness. That is why Amercian propaganda is so vicious: you say "Soviet" and everything is propaganda and bullshit. The truth is that in different places land has different level of productivity. The Soviet problem was that people were not allowed to live off land, and on the other hand the Soviet state wasted the resource terribly. I completely fail to see what propaganda is in this. `'mikka (t) 18:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Moldovans are romanians and you don't have any evidence to prove that is not like that. The rest of your arguments are just cheap sovietic political arguments that may be well considered as anti-romanian remarks.--125.248.157.82 11:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Flag

From what I understand Mikka is right. The official flag (flown on state buildings) must include the hammer and sickle. However, by the Article 4 of Law on symbolism, the hammer and sickle can be ommited for most cases (except for state institutions). This is from http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/md-dnies.html and http://pridnestrovie.net/. TSO1D 15:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. De jure, I am looking into this here: http://zakon-pmr.com/index.php?adv - De facto, all PMR flags are now clean tri-bands with no hammer and sickle. This is even true in official use, as far as I know. So if the Transnistrians themselves have abandoned their hammer and sickle, I don't see why Misplaced Pages should reflect anything else than the reality ... even if their laws may yet have caught it with that. I know that this approach is more pragmatic than Sovietic. But let us discuss this some more, and if we want to get an inside view then someone (Mikka? TSO1D?) could also open a thread on http://forum.tiraspol.net asking about this issue. - Mauco 17:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is the most recent law relevant to the subject:

О ГОСУДАРСТВЕННОЙ СИМВОЛИКЕ ПРИДНЕСТРОВСКОЙ МОЛДАВСКОЙ РЕСПУБЛИКИ (ТЕКУЩАЯ РЕДАКЦИЯ ПО СОСТОЯНИЮ НА 16 МАРТА 2005 ГОДА)

Статья 3

Государственный флаг Приднестровской Молдавской Республики представляет собой прямоугольное полотнище двухсторонне красного цвета. Посередине полотнища каждой стороны во всю его длину располагается полоса зеленого цвета. В левом углу верхней части полосы красного цвета располагается основной элемент герба Приднестровской Молдавской Республики - серп и молот золотистого цвета с красной пятиконечной звездой, обрамленной каймой золотистого цвета.

http://zakon-pmr.com/doc.php?docid=23848538&queryid=28896451 As you can see the hammer and sickle are listed as required elements of the official flag. TSO1D 18:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you happen to notice the existence of the Flag of Transnistria article? `'mikka (t) 18:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

LOl, actually I had not seen that page before. Well, I guess this discussion did not bring out any new information, but at least I believe the issue is settled. TSO1D 18:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

What is still puzzling is that, with the 2000 law, why does government itself not even adhere to it? Look at photos from president-pmr.org, mfa-pmr.org, and any of the news services covering official events and national holidays of Transnistria: Sep 2, Feb 23, etc. All the flags are without star and without hammer and sickle. - Mauco 05:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

68.201.194.236 put the flag back up without hammer/sickle, I reverted him back, but it would be right to reopen this discussion: It is clear that Transnistria has two flags, the state flag (with hammer and sickle) and the civilian flag (without). The latter is by far the most widely used, as per all available photo evidence ... even to the point of some state organs disregarding their own law. We would not be wrong to display the civilian flag rather than the state flag since the civilian flag is the most common flag and the one that Transnistria is known under. This would even concur with other Misplaced Pages usage, so unless other editors strongly object (Mikka?) I would propose letting this most recent edit stand. Not to sound too schizophrenic, but I'm prepared to revert my own revert and give reasons why. - Mauco 00:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

After five days and no objections to the proposal above, the change has now been made accordingly. In summary: Between the two official flags (state and civil), which are both legal, we now show the one which is in common usage. This practice corresponds to other Misplaced Pages country entries, such as for instance Bolivia, and it also corresponds to the practise used for this particular article (Transnistria) in Wikipedias in most other languages ,,,,etc. - Mauco 22:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an official infobox, hence the official flag as described in Constitution. Period. Not to say that its symbolics reflects the state of the state. `'mikka (t) 23:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not so sure that these symbols actually reflect the current state of the state. But "Period" sounds like there's not much to argue, so ... period it is. It is not a big deal for me, either way, although we are allowed to show the most commonly used flag (rather than just state flag) in the official infobox. - Mauco 03:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Moldovans = Romanians

Can one explain me how come that Moldovans are not Romanians? It looks like a russian POV in the article. --220.65.247.178 06:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Salut bonaparte! :) - FrancisTyers 08:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The factory in Rîbniţa

I was going through the article and this sentence caught my eye: "One is a munitions factory in Tighina (Bender) while another important steel factory exists in Rîbniţa (Rybnitsa). The factory in Rîbniţa brings about 50% of the republic's revenue and is the main provider of jobs in that city." It seems strange that one factory would account for 50% of the region's revenue. Can anyone provide a source that can back that statement? Otherwise, it might be best to simply remove it. TSO1D 15:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't the original author of this statement, and I agree with you that it sounds strange. I have no objection to removing it. But the statement may not necessarily be wrong. The factory is MMZ, on which more can be seen here and here. It is indeed that city's largest employer. When measured in sales, its $500+ million also makes it #1 in Transnistria. If the Transnistria GDP is only twice that, the 50% statement could be true unless we are comparing apples with oranges. -Mauco 19:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Did some more research on this subject and found the following: "The Moldova Steel Works in Rybnitsa, which employs close to four thousand workers, is the source of 40 to 50 percent of the de facto state's revenue." This is from page 66 of the book Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States by Dov Lynch, published by the United States Institute of Peace (a government organization), ISBN 1-929223-54-4. The corollorary to this is that as of yesterday, the factory just stopped working . So right now, at least, it would be untrue to say that it brings in 50% of the revenue (or even 40%). Like TSO1D says, it might be best to simply remove the whole sentence altogether. - Mauco 21:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

External links

A new user, jonathanpops, added this comment to on April 5 which I just stumbled upon by accident today, so I am moving it here:

Regarding the content of transdniestria.com, having watched it now for quite a while I see you're right it is mostly news from 3rd parties, but there are people's opinions that are original, and a few articles here and there there can't be found anywhere else. It's a pity this whole page on wikipedia has had to be locked down because of abuse, I have to say though that I think it's very wrong that visitors to this page aren't allowed to be given the opportunity to see transdniestria.com and make up their own minds and add their own opinions. The site is there and there's no point not linking to it. I know there's no point in adding it now because someone who thinks they know better than me will just remove it again, it is a shame though. (end, jonathanpops)

To Jonathanpops: First of all, please discuss here and not in archives. Second, article is now unprotected so you can edit again. Third, as you may have read, I happen to agree with you that this particular link is appropriate and that the content reflects all points of view. Be bold, add the link if you want. Don't become a discouraged ex-Wikipedian. If others disagree, we discuss (here, not in archives). - Mauco 05:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

In reply to William Mauco: Sorry I only put my last comment there because that's where the original discussion was moved to, my original comment was somewhere else and got moved. I didn't see that you had this bit down here, or just didn't realize that's how it worked. I don't think I've seen an article with as many edits as this one, not additions but people removing other people's work and other people re-adding it, or another version of it. It's kind of interesting but very confusing at the same time. I guess with me and this topic it's kind of a case of me being the new guy, like you say, and feeling that I don't have the same say as some of the others. For instance in this case where I added an external link that I thought would be useful to people interested in the topic and Mikkalai instantly deleting it with some derisive remark about Misplaced Pages being no place for blogs. I just assumed that Mikkalai is someone respected, he certainly has done a lot of edits here, and that adding the link again would get on someone's nerves and it would be simply deleted again. Anyway, that's why I voiced my opinion that it's a shame rather than just adding the link again - though it seems I did it in the wrong place. - jonathanpops

No need to apologize. All of us are newbies to a certain extent (well, maybe not Mikka). The problem you mention with all the edits, reversions, and deletions stems from the fact that this topic (Transnistria) is controversial. And I think it was Bogdan who pointed out that in this particular case, those who really know enough about the subject to add value as editors are people who are involved in this subject or follow it closely - and because of that, for better or worse, they have already formed an opinion one way or the other. So true neutrality is hard to achieve and thus often disputed. But go ahead and add your link. Mikka is indeed respected, but like me and everyone else he sometimes makes mistakes and as you can see from the Talk page and its archives, he too has received some criticism. In the case of the link you mention, it is not a blog and it is at least as relevant as the moldova.org link which is already present in our external link section; probably more so. Both of them are collections of third party news and your link to trandsdniestria.com is at least balanced and fair. It fairly presents all sides of the story, whereas moldova.org only shows one point of view. - Mauco 17:57, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I have some doubts regarding whether we should include transdniestria.org.com in the links section. I agree to some extent that it mirrors moldova.org by including credible third-party sources and thus establishing some balance. However, the page does not appear truly professional, there are actually numerous gramatical or orthographical errors on the first page alone. The page also resembles a blog to some extent as users can share their views and submit stories, a characteristic contrary to the Misplaced Pages policy on including sources. If you truly want to include this page, I will not oppose you, I just urge you to consider its merits on propriety for Misplaced Pages again. TSO1D 14:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Someone else originally added it a couple of months ago, it was up for quite a while, then EvilAlex took it away, and none of us here loved that site enough to add it back into until Jonathanpops showed up, put it in, and had it yanked in quick order by Mikka. Basically, the site aggregates English-language Transnistria news from other sources. It takes everything it gets and doesn't appear to enforce any censorship. I follow it daily so I know it well. It is not a blog. It has a comment option for each article but I've never seen anyone use it. As a community site, it is very poor. Its main (only) merit is that it provides a one-stop aggregation for English language news on Transnistria. No one other free site does that. It is updated daily. The owner is a Transnistrian who moved to England (like EvilAlex). His name is Nikola. From the intro on his frontpage, he sounds pro-Transnistria but he doesn't censor anything and the news is normally over 70% pro-Moldova. It is a decent resource for someone who has an interest in following Transnistria events and doesn't want to follow the Russian press. I visit it more often than ANY of the other external links that we have (Moldovan side or Transnistrian side), so that alone says something for the site being included. But I am not passionate either way. - Mauco 02:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I added the link to http://www.transdniestria.com/ again. I wasn't sure where it fits as the site seems to be on no particular side as far as I can tell, apart from the obvious in its name of course. Please can someone alter it if I did it wrong? jonathanpops

Oh my God, it was only up there for 5 minutes and Chisinau has removed it as 'link spam'. I even put a note to see discussion when I added it. I guess that discussions here are not related to the article after all, so what happens now? - Jonathanpops 12:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The user who removed your link has not participated in the discussion about this link (neither above, nor in ) so he is hardly justified in removing it. If he feels that it is link spam, then he should tell you and the rest of us his reasons here and give you a chance to resolve it and reach consensus. If he can't do that and keeps removing you then he's just vandalizing. - Mauco 14:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I researched and added the water surface area which was "N/A" before. In doing so, I used http://tdsu.idknet.com/region/english/atlas/dir14/relief_text.shtm as the source. I took the size of the Dubossary HPS reservoir 67.5 km2 and Lake Kuchurgan (Cuciurgan) 27.2 km2, and rounded up to the nearest total in order to factor in the Krasnoye Lake and a smaller lake formed by the Rybnitsa river near Kolbasna.
I also corrected land mass area size, as per the following sources in English http://www.mfa-pmr.org/republic/index.php?lang=eng&id=1, http://pridnestrovie.net/facts.html and in Russian http://www.tiraspol.net/republic.asp?info=geograf, http://www.olvia.idknet.com/overviewru.htm Note that these all include Bender (Tighina) which is the correct approach for this infobox since Bender is under Transnistria's political administrative control. - Mauco 20:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Language problems

A moldovan from Iasi is a romanian. A moldovan from Moldova is also a romanian. What language does he speak? Romanian language of course.Iasi 10:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC).

An Austrian speaks German. It doesn't make him a German. Now, Bonaparte, this is all repetitive, discussed already multiple times. I feel bad that among the usernames you compromised is the name of this great city. May I suggest that you come back under yet a new name and, first, make to that name some good reputation by writing some articles. Some good articles, not the nonsense entries like Romania's potential masterpiece. After that join the hotter debates. If you just wait until this username follows others in getting blocked, you will just waste yours and other people's time. And, finally, never edit through open proxies! Either directly, or through a new user name. Misplaced Pages policy explicitly prohibits the usage of open proxies. --Irpen 20:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you haven't read too well Irpen. A moldovan from Iasi is a romanian. A moldovan from Moldova is also a romanian. What language does he speaks? Romanian language of course. Iasi 05:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of how you feel about the issue (for or against), the frequent reverts are disruptive to the article. To anonymous: State your case, convince the other editors, and then go ahead with changes. See also archives. This has been covered amply in the past. - Mauco 12:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Moldovan (Romanian) is a romance language that uses latin alphabet. No need to give Transnistria's Moldovan official name using cyrillic alphabet. Unfortunately, I don't know how to spell it in Moldovan as I don't speak it, but it would be nice and helpful if someone could correct this (Ukrainian and Russian official names should stay unchanged). 198.51.251.205 13:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not the view of the PMR government. They believe that Moldovan is different from Romanian, and that the main difference is the fact that it is spelled with cyrillic letters. This position is supported by the historical fact that ethnic Moldovans in Transnistria have used the cyrillic alphabet for their own language since the 14th century, with the exception of 15 years in the interwar period. (Source: ) Transnistria calls the language Moldavian (Moldovan) and differentiates it from Romanian mainly by using cyrillic. They call the same language Romanian when it is written in the latin alphabet. Contrast this with the official position of the government of the Republic of Moldova which calls the language Moldovan even when written with latin alphabet. In this article, we are using two names: The common English name (Transnistria) and then the official name(s). For the latter, we are displaying the official name as determined by the government of PMR, in all three official languages, so we must adhere to their choice both in naming and in spelling it in each of these languages. - Mauco 15:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Separatist regime

I believe that the word separatist should continue to be used in the article. I remember there was a debate regarding its use about a year ago but it was decided to maintian it for numerous region. Most international organizations such as the EU and OSCE refer to the regime as such. Calling it an independent government is a euphemism. Others encycopedias such as Encarta also use the term separatist and secessionist. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566942_2/Moldova.html TSO1D 20:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with separatist (although if we really, really, really want to split hairs I can document why technically this is not the case. However, for ease-of-understanding it is probably the word that best describes Transnistria for outsiders who don't want to get bogged down in technicalities). I am more concerned about the word regime. It is a "loaded" word which carries an implied POV. A neutral word would be "government". It has no value judgment since it can be used equally well for dictatorial authoritarian governments as for democratic governments. The word government does not even imply recognition of Transnistria as a separate country, as "government" is used at the local level too (city government, regional government). - Mauco 22:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course it should stay separatist. Actually it is an illegal entity. 05:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Please read more closely: I am concerned about the word regime, not the word separatist. The former is best replaced with the neutral word government (while separatist can stay as far as I am concerned). - Mauco 12:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not government since no state has recognize it. If it's not a state or government that means it's a regime. Actually is an illegal regime. 195.245.224.138 14:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd hate to bait a troll, but for what it is worth: Government in English can refer to any kind of government, be it state, local, regional, city government etc. Even "illegal governments" (such as governments which obtain power through a coup) are governments. It is a neutral word whereas regime is value-laden. - Mauco 14:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

As you said it already. A Government is...Well in this case there is no Government. It's just an illegal regime. Which is also separatist. 195.245.224.138 14:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

perverse edit. Under the name Motto he constantly deleted everything related to Romania. Reverted. --195.245.224.138 18:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not care if the word government is used instead of regime. It might even be a better term to describe the situation. I just don't believe that the word separatist should be removed. TSO1D 20:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will do the edits. - Mauco 20:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Attempted to do edits, so as to adopt neutral POV, but we have an anonymous troll who's currently disrupting. Please take a look. - Mauco 20:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It might make sense to request semi-protection for this page if this continues. TSO1D 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The IP is an open proxy BTW. --Khoikhoi 21:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Will Moldova join Romania?

Yes. What will be the future of Transnistria? Well... Transnistria will become a part of Romania.195.245.224.138 14:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What is the point of this comment? seriously? do you think that it will serve at all to our discussion here? As a Romanian, I can tell you that if by any chance Moldova and Romania agree to join into one state, I would really not want Transnistria to be included in it.Constantzeanu 08:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Just ignore anonymous comments. And you're right: If Moldova and Romania ever unify, then Romania will absolutely insist on solving the issue with Transnistria first. They don't want to be saddled with a potential Northern Ireland problem beyond the border of what has historically always been considered the extreme East of Greater Romania. - Mauco 14:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Partly you're right but also it is EU who wants to have a free Moldova with EU oriented foreign policy. It may sooner or later unite with Romania but that's another topic. --Chisinau 14:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

sprotect

from user talk:RHaworth#Request

Hi Roger, Would you be able to semi-protect the Transnistria page? It's under attack by an open proxy IP, most likely a sock of the banned User:Bonaparte. Thanks. --Khoikhoi 06:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

We might be able to take this off now. It looks quiet around here for the past couple of weeks. - Mauco 13:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Housekeeping: History of Transnistria

As originally discussed a month ago, we now have a separate History of Transnistria article. This is in part to match overall Misplaced Pages practice and in part so that the main article conforms with Misplaced Pages's article size parameters. Please note that no text has been changed: The entire History section from the main article merely got moved into History of Transnistria, lock stock and barrel. In its place is now a shorter summary which is merely a condensed version of the article, using key sentences drawn from the original article. All original text is kept "as is" with not a single edit/change, and can be seen here. - Mauco 03:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian troops

I am concerned about possible POV in our mention of Russian military involvement, in particular the following statement which does not tell the full story:

Despite the Istanbul Agreement of 1999 Russia did not withdraw its military troops from Transnistria.

The original 14th Army numbered 12,000 men at the time of PMR's independence declaration (1990) and the War of Transnistria (1992). The number of Russian troops has been progressively lowered over the years. Today it is at its lowest level, with the most recent figure numbering just 600 men and women. (Source: of 05.05.06 13:53). In other words, 95% are gone. That amounts to an effective withdrawal by anyone's measure. The remaining forces are there to comply with Russia's obligations as part of the Joint Control Commission which was created on the basis of an agreement signed between the presidents of Moldova and Russia. I propose rewriting the paragraph - Mauco 13:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Related: Most of the Soviet-era ammunition and military hardware in Kolbasna has also either been removed or destroyed in recent years. This is recognized by both the U.S. State Department and OSCE. In fact, OSCE specifically states that this is a result of the Istanbul Summit. It's OK to be hard on PMR for lots of reasons, but not at the expense of telling the truth. - Mauco 13:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not in the exact number of troops and munitions that remain, but rather in the continuing Russian military presence. I remember reading a few months ago that the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs that the rest of the troops will not be withdrawn because some armament remains. A few weeks later, the Ministry stated that the armament cannot be removed as the PRM government did not give its permission, etc. The fact is that Russia is not interested in a full withdrawal, and that is the main demand of the Moldovan government. Russia has been criticized repeatedly for not complying with the Istanbul Agreement in completely withdrawing all military personel. Here is a statement from the U.S. State Department: "Resumption of Russian military withdrawal from Moldova in accordance with the Istanbul commitments would also send a very important signal that Russia, a key player in the talks and in the region, does not regard the status quo as permanent or acceptable. It has now been six years since Istanbul, and this commitment remains unfulfilled.We reject the notion that fulfillment of the withdrawal commitment is dependent upon a political settlement of the Transnistrian conflict. No such condition was agreed to at Istanbul." TSO1D 20:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly one of the more controversial topics of the whole Transnistria imbroglio. It'll be easy for us to fight over it here, too, if we want. Each side has its arguments, and I am not too keen on butting heads with you or anyone else over it. In fairness to the Russians it could be said that if their last 600 men and women leave, then who will take over the Joint Control Commission? Just Moldova and Transnistria? And how might that end? But I don't think it would serve us (as Misplaced Pages editors) to fight over this. Rather, I would merely advocate that we stick to the facts. As it reads now, a newcomer to the article will think that the Russians are still there in full force, when in fact 95% of them have left and the majority of the Kolbasna ammo and stored military hardware has also been either shipped back to Russia or destoyed in situ by now. Note: It is also an area where PMR and Russia disagree vehemently; showing that although the two parties coincide on a most issues they are in fact individual actors with their own sometimes differing agendas. PMR is currently petitioning Kremlin to increase the troop strength to 2,400 and add a helicopter division. - Mauco 22:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

As I stated before, it is not the size of the force but its very presence that is the issue of contention. Although a greater force could present a greater immediate threat to Republic of Moldova, the fact that any Russian soldiers are stationed in the region protecting 20,000 tons of weaponry (albeit archaic) exerts almost as great an influence on the geopolitical reality of the conflict as an augmentation of the number might. It is important to understand that the Moldovan government does not view the troops as neutral peace-keepers, but rather as partisans of the Transnistrian side. During the war, the 14th Army supported the separatist forces by providing them with war matériel and on several instances by using their contingent against the national forces. By the end of the military conflict, it became clear that Moldova could not possibly defeat the Russian-backed Transnistrian forces and a ceasefire was declared, however the status of the Russian has never been acknowledged by Moldova as being of a necessary peace-keeping nature, but rather as it declared on various occasions as occupiers. The size of the contingent might present a more immediate threat to the Moldovan state, however this has a negligible effect considering that in any potential conflict between Moldovan and Russian forces the entire Russian Army would be ready to respond in force. Recent incidents such as the occupation of the Port of Varniţa, emphasize the fact that the Russian forces do not represent a veritable peacekeeping force. http://www.azi.md/news?ID=39017 In any case, this discussion is irrelevant, because the sentence reflects a true statement. Russian officials acknowledge the fact that they do not wish to fully withdraw the military forces and thus they are violating the terms of the Istanbul accords. TSO1D 23:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the semantics, of course, but we're splitting hairs. Most reasonable outsiders would see the Russians as having complied 95% with the Istanbul agreement, and that the reason they are still there is to keep the situation from getting worse. They call themselves peacekeepers now (and see themselves as peacekeepers), and we can agree or not with that moniker. But even if we don't agree, it doesn't take a genius to predict that if they withdraw their last 600 folks and let PMR and Moldova alone in the Joint Control Commission then the situation could easily go from fair ("no military deaths since 1992") to probably a whole lot more unstable. Calling them occupiers is just a label. Both sides use all kinds of label for political reasons and we, as editors, should try not to fall into that trap. Let's just call a spade and spade and not advocate anyone's pet point of view. Moldova has signed onto the agreement creating JCC which is the reason given for why the Russians are still there. So Moldova knows what they are there for. Since its creation, in 1992, Moldova has participated on and off in the JCC, both in its leadership and planning and with troops as well. Of the tree sides, it has the second largest participation. So both de jure (by signing and creating the JCC) and de facto (by providing management and manpower) the JCC is supported and acknowledged by Moldova. Do they do their job well? Probably not, at all times, if Varnitsa is anything to go by. But that is a different discussion, and as a result of Varnitsa the OSCE persuaded Moldova to involve itself more than before in JCC, with the next meeting scheduled for 11 May, so someone somewhere understands that Varnitsa was in part caused by a lack of active engagement by Moldova in the JCC. Getting back to the article, though. I still think this particular section should be updated. I'd be willing to give it a try, and then you (and anyone else) can of course revert me - since this is Misplaced Pages - if you don't agree that the new version is better than what is currently there. - Mauco 12:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that I fully understood your original comment, I appologize for that. Yes, the statement can be improved and I have attempted to expand it by explaining that a drastic reduction took place in the Russian contingent. As for the statement about occupiers, I did not use that word anywhere in the article and only placed it here because Mr. Voronin employed the word on several occasions. As for Moldova's not participating fully in the JCC, whatever the reasons for this lack of interest may be on the part of Moldova, by no means does this justify the military occupation of the port by the Transnistrian forces. And about the absence of military deaths in the recent past, that is true, but the hostilities ended when the Russian forces themselves stopped fighting so in my view the lack of direct hostilities is due more to Russia's non-aggression rather than its peacekeeping efforts. Of course, this is just my opinion. TSO1D 16:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit, I like it better now. Regarding Varnitsa, I am not clear on the situation. But if Moldova had been more active in JCC, then this incident probably wouldn't have played out the same way. So it is good (for all sides) that Moldova is now taking a more active role. - Mauco 20:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I clarified that the last Russians are there for JCC duties. Instead of getting into a discussion of whether they are peacekeepers or occupiers, I merely took the phrasing from this OSCE document which is a current part of the U.S. State Department's website. - Mauco 22:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that all of the Russian soldiers are on peacekeeping duties. I believe that a fraction (though I am not certain how great) of the troops are employed to safeguard what remains of the 14 Army's base and its remaining munitions. As a result I added part of in you latest change. As for their status, I don't think you understood me, I have never advocated using the name occupier in the article and have no objections towards the usage of "peacekeeping forces", I was just making a point by providing a statemnt from Voronin. TSO1D 22:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I like your edit. It would be interesting to find out how many are JCC-personnel and what the rest are doing (if not all are JCC). Another item worthy of research would be Kolbasna: Is the remaining ammo there guarded by JCC (all three sides together) or only by the Russians? I don't have the answer but would like to find out. - Mauco 23:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Update to the above: You were right that not all Russian soldiers are on peacekeeping duties. If you believe Olvia Press (I do, sometimes) then the number is 349 for JCC which leaves approximately 251 soldiers to guard the remnants of the base of the 14th Army and its ammo, including whatever still remains at Kolbasna. Source: http://www.olvia.idknet.com/ol49-05-06.htm - Mauco 12:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that seems like a plausible distribution of the personnel. By the way good job for finding that information, I spent a great deal of time trying to locate it with no success.TSO1D 19:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Exact number of troops. Mauco, I looked at the link that you provided at the beginning of the discussion (I neglected to look at it when you first posted it), and I discovered that the article did not directly state that only 600 Russian troops were located in the region, but rather that 600 peacekeeping troops of the Russian Federation were stationed there. "600 российских миротворцев охраняют мир на берегах Днестра после кровавого вооруженного конфликта между Молдовой и Приднестровьем 1992 года." On the other hand, in another source that I visited today that number was estimated at 1500. "Now in Transnistria there are about 1,500 active militaries of the Russian Federation." Do you think that the number in the article be changed to 1500? TSO1D 21:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

You two currenlty represent a model group of wikipedians, bringing NPOV to what was previously an almost hopeless article with reasonable dialogue, while approaching the issue from opposite sides - something I thought as impossible without bickering and pointless revert wars - you know that? :)

Thanks for the cudos, maybe it is because both TSO1D and myself are not directly involved (he is not in Moldova proper and I am not in PMR) so we can keep our cool and see things from a distance. This doesn't mean that we can always claim to be objective, of course, because as Bogdan pointed out anyone who knows enough about such a subject to be able to really write about it in an informed way is probably swayed by one opinion or another. - Mauco 01:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I'd suggest the following: "..although the Russian contingent has been reduced to approximately 600-1500, according to various sources(,), part of whom..." --Illythr 00:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Such a wide range is too imprecise for my liking. We ought to be able to do better. A lot of the .md sites have a vested interest in overstating the real number, it is part of the whole "black hole" campaign. At the same time, Olvia Press is stateowned Transnistria, and Transnistria is currently lobbying to get the number of troops up to 2400. What we need is a Russian source and let us be clear that any number given for peacekeeping troops (JCC) wouldn't be the same as the total number of troops (others needed to guard Kolbasna, etc). Maybe http://www.peacekeeper.ru is a good place to start? - Mauco 01:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the best source would be either an official Russian site (perhaps the Ministry of External affairs ) or data from an international organization such as the UN or OSCE. I am not exactly sure what http://www.peacekeeper.ru is. It doesn't seem to be an official website, but it does have articles and links where this information might be found. TSO1D 01:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

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