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Corrections required

Kamrupi Apabhramsa of Western Assam is separated from Magadhi Prakrita of Central India in first millennium and became literary language of scholars of that time as well as court language of Kamrup Kingdom. This Apabhramsa contain traces of Sanskrit and Prakrit due to ancestral link and became language of day to day use of people from Western Assam, known today as Kamrupi dialect. Due to its Apabhramsa stage in first millennium CE, it cannot be termed as Sanskrit, Prakrit or modern Indo Aryan language. So this article should be moved to either "Old Kamrupi" or "Kamrupi Apabhramsa". From what i had seen, this article is stub and can be considered for merge with Kamrupi dialect.

Here are my sources :

(i) Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti, Journal of the Assam Research Society - Volume 18 Though Apabhramsa works in Kamrupi Specimens are not available, yet we can trace the prevalence of early Kamrupi Apabhramsa through the window of archaic froms as found in the grants or Copper-plates mentioned above. This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam.

(ii) Sukumar Sen, Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1 Assamese, or more appropriately the old Kamarupi dialect entered into Kamrup or western Assam, where this speech was first characterized as Assamese.

(iii) Sukhabilasa Barma, Bhawaiya, ethnomusicological study Based on the materials of the Linguistic Survey of India, Suniti Kumar Chattopadhyay has divided Eastern Magadhi Prakrita and Apabhramsa into four dialect groups (1) Radha-the language of West Bengal and Orissa (2) Varendra-dialect of North Central Bengal (3) Kamrupi-dialect of Northern Bengal and Assam and (4) Vanga-dialect of East Bengal.

(iv) Upendranath Goswami, A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese says Assamese entered into Kamarupa or western Assam where this speech was first characterised as Assamese. This is evident from the remarks of Hiuen Tsang who visited the Kingdom of Kamarupa in the first half of the seventh century A.D., during the reign of Bhaskaravarman.

(v) Suniti Kumar Chatterji, The origin and development of the Bengali language, Volume 1 One would expect one and identical language to have been current in North Central Bengal (Pundra-vardhana) and North Bengal and West Assam (Kamarupa) in the 7th century, since these tracts, and other parts of Bengal, had almost the same speech. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 13:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

We've already covered this issue and no one agrees with either your proposal or that your interpretation/presentation of these sources' statements is accurate. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I will wait for appropriate reply for some time before moving to next level of dispute resolution. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 10:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Corrections required---replies

Kamrupi Apabhramsa of Western Assam is separated from Magadhi Prakrita of Central India in first millennium and became literary language of scholars of that time as well as court language of Kamrup Kingdom. This Apabhramsa contain traces of Sanskrit and Prakrit due to ancestral link and became language of day to day use of people from Western Assam, known today as Kamrupi dialect. Due to its Apabhramsa stage in first millennium CE, it cannot be termed as Sanskrit, Prakrit or modern Indo Aryan language. So this article should be moved to either "Old Kamrupi" or "Kamrupi Apabhramsa". From what i had seen, this article is stub and can be considered for merge with Kamrupi dialect. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

The name "Kamarupi Prakrit" follows the name used by Sharma 1978 (p0.25, full ref in article). He has reconstructed the linguistic features of this language most fully, and lists about 17 of them in the next few pages of his book. Toulmin 2006 (full reference in article) has called this language proto-Kamrupa, and identifies it as the ancestor language of Assamese as well as the Kamatapuri lects. This language is, of course, not fully reconstructed. Since the fullest account of this language comes from Sharma, the name should follow his use. A merge with Kamrupi dialect makes no sense because this is an ancestor language of not just the modern Kamrupi dialects, but all Assamese as well as Kamatapuri lects. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Here are my sources :

(i) Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti, Journal of the Assam Research Society - Volume 18 Though Apabhramsa works in Kamrupi Specimens are not available, yet we can trace the prevalence of early Kamrupi Apabhramsa through the window of archaic froms as found in the grants or Copper-plates mentioned above. This sort of Sporadic Apabhramsa is a mixture of Sanskrit, Prakrit and colloquial dialects of Assam. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

This is an article written by Parikshit Hazarika (full reference in article), where he claims, mainly on the grounds that since Kamarupa was a strong enduring political entity in the classical period, the language of Kamarupa deserves a special position with its own linguistic imprint. He writes: "This sort of oneness must have helped the growth of a common language which can be termed as Kamrupi Prakrit or Kamrupi Apabhramsa" (p80, emphasis mine). Hazarika quotes from an unreferenced article by Beni Madhav Barua (The Scribe-Engravers of Indrapala's Second Copper-plate and Prakrit of Pre-Ahom Times) thus: "The pre-Ahom inscriptions of kamrupa contain a few other instances of Prakritism that may be taken to indicate the nature and form of the dialect as current in those times, say from 6th to 12th century AD, I mean the prakrit language in the historical background of Assamese." So Hazarika, as well as his predecessor Barua accept "Kamarupi Prakrit" as a name for this language.

Your quote, where he calls for examination of Kamarupa inscriptions to reconstruct the language is exactly what Sharma 1978 has done (see above). Sharma, of course, calls the language "Kamarupi Prakrit". Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(ii) Sukumar Sen, Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1 Assamese, or more appropriately the old Kamarupi dialect entered into Kamrup or western Assam, where this speech was first characterized as Assamese. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

This sentence has major problems at many different levels. For example, how could the language that entered Kamrup be called (old) Kamrupi? He obviously meant eastern Magadhi. The language can be called Kamarupi only after it had acquired significant linguistic features in Kamarupa. He also calls it Assamese, which is again a misnomer. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(iii) Sukhabilasa Barma, Bhawaiya, ethnomusicological study Based on the materials of the Linguistic Survey of India, Suniti Kumar Chattopadhyay has divided Eastern Magadhi Prakrita and Apabhramsa into four dialect groups (1) Radha-the language of West Bengal and Orissa (2) Varendra-dialect of North Central Bengal (3) Kamrupi-dialect of Northern Bengal and Assam and (4) Vanga-dialect of East Bengal. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

He is just paraphrasing Chatterji, so no comment need be made on him. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as his use of "Kamrupi dialect" is concerned, Chatterji uses it in the sense of "the Magadhi Apabhramsa dialect of Kamarupa". He in fact uses "Kamarupa Dialects" not "Kamrupi-dialect" . This is clear from the tree he has constructed and which is reproduced in Toulmin's thesis. We have discussed this extensively in previous discussions, and this interpretation was accepted as correct. Chaipau (talk) 11:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The tree, reproduced as Figure 7-3 (p302), is here]. The relevant portion of the tree is given below:

• Forms of Magadhi Prakrit and Apabhramsa as brought to Bengal, Assam and Orissa
  • Radha Dialects
  • Varendra Dialects
  • Kamarupa Dialects
    • Western
      • North Bengali
  • Vanga dialects

Note that Chatterji includes west Goalpara in North Bengali, but not east Goalpara, which purportedly he includes in Assamese. Chatterji lists only the modern Bengali dialects in his tree, and not the dialects of Oriya and Assamese. So east Goalpariya as well as Kamrupi and other dialects in the east he implicitly includes under Assamese. Chaipau (talk) 12:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(iv) Upendranath Goswami, A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese says Assamese entered into Kamarupa or western Assam where this speech was first characterised as Assamese. This is evident from the remarks of Hiuen Tsang who visited the Kingdom of Kamarupa in the first half of the seventh century A.D., during the reign of Bhaskaravarman. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

Upendra Goswami seems to have borrowed the first sentence from Sukumar Sen. see above. The second sentence simply says that the language of Kamarupa was different from the one in north India in the 7th century. This simply reinforces the notion that there indeed existed a language associated with the Kamarupa Kingdom. This is precisely the language Sharma 1978 has tried to reconstruct and named "Kamarupi Prakrit". Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(v) Suniti Kumar Chatterji, The origin and development of the Bengali language, Volume 1 One would expect one and identical language to have been current in North Central Bengal (Pundra-vardhana) and North Bengal and West Assam (Kamarupa) in the 7th century, since these tracts, and other parts of Bengal, had almost the same speech. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 13:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

We've already covered this issue and no one agrees with either your proposal or that your interpretation/presentation of these sources' statements is accurate. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Chatterji here refers to either Kamarupa Prakrit, or to its immediate predecessor. Toulmin 2006 calls Kamarupi Prakrit "?proto-Kamrupa" and its immediate predecessor "?proto-Gauda-Kamrupa" (because he is referring to Pundra-vardhana). "?proto-Gauda-Kamrupa", according to Toulmin, is the ancestor language of Bengali, as well as Assamese and Kamatapuri lects. (See Figure 7-21 in Toulin's thesis). So Chatterji here does not contradict anything in this article.

If you are trying to draw attention to Chatterji's use of "West Assam (Kamrupa)" then Chatterji would do better to amend his 1920's thesis. The Kamarupa kingdom expanded very rapidly both to the east as well as to the west. The second oldest (or as some claim, the oldest) Kamarupa inscriptions, the 5th century Nagajari Khanikargaon rock inscription, was located in Golaghat (look at findspot "2" here). Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I will wait for appropriate reply for some time before moving to next level of dispute resolution. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 10:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with user:aeusoes1, that we have had this discussion a number of times. But I provide the arguments anew here, in summary, in anticipation of the dispute resolution process. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Can you give your top five sources (quotes) here ? भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 12:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

As for quality, i have provided high quality sources like Suniti Kumar Chatterji, Sukumar Sen, Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti and Upendranatha Goswami. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 13:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I have addressed all your concerns, point-by-point, clarifying the quotes you have provided yourself. I have also provided additional references in here and in the article body. I don't think there is any need for additional quotes at this time. Chaipau (talk) 13:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

For early disposal of issue we need sources from both sides, which can be compared for quality. Kindly cooperate for same. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 13:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Your proposal for a page move or merge. I have addressed your arguments, which I think is sufficient. Any other issue that might arise, I shall address when it does. You are asking me to prejudge a situation, which I won't like to do. Chaipau (talk) 13:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Then how we go ahead without sources ! भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 14:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

You said you were prepared to go to the next step of dispute resolution. Go for it. — Ƶ§œš¹ 14:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Sure i will do it in some point of time. Are you interested to be one of the party !! But i still think User:Chaipau can provide good sources supportable. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 14:40, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I can participate in the dispute resolution process as well. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

OK भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 16:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

All sources including mentioned by you referred the speech as "Apabhramsa" while Prakita is not equal to Apabhramsa. So please remove Prakrita suffix from title. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 08:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

All sources?? Where did you read that? Parikshit Hazarika and Beni Madhav Barua call it Prakrit. Mahendra Madhav Sharma, who has given the fullest reconstruction of the language till date, calls it Kamarupa Prakrit. Parikshit Hazarika, who you quote, calls it a Prakrit too. But Kamarupi Apabhramsa is not the only alternative for this. "Kamarupa Dialects" (Chatterji 1929), "proto-Kamrupa" (Toulmin 2006) etc are also valid alternatives. But this is yet an unreconstructed language. But those who have worked on reconstructing it and have brought out its primary linguistic features (Sharma, and before him, Beni Madhav Barua and Dimbeswar Neog) have all called it a Prakrit, which is the basic rationale for keeping the name as it is. The primary reason why these authors have called it a Prakrit and not an Apabhramsa is given in the article lead itself (Vararuci's rule). I do anticipate that the Prakrit-Apabhramsa divide may not be relevant in the future as the full reconstruction becomes available, when it might just be called "proto-Kamarupa" following modern conventions, but till that happens, the name should remain as it is. Chaipau (talk) 09:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Thats why i am asking you to provide your top five high quality sources. And also please add new quotes to article keeping existing quotes constant which is not the case in one of your last few edits. Regarding allergy, its not acceptable because i have never edited articles related to said subject which i accused of being allergic but yes surely allergic to false glorification. So i will maintain good faith and expecting the same from you. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 19:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Please take this to the next level. I am tired of repeated arguments. We need some feedback from others. Chaipau (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

New Comments

I have addressed all your concerns, point-by-point, clarifying the quotes you have provided yourself. I have also provided additional references in here and in the article body. I don't think there is any need for additional quotes at this time. Your so called point to point clarification is mostly erroneous.

The name "Kamarupi Prakrit" follows the name used by Sharma 1978 (p0.25, full ref in article). This case of single source, we don't even know its context. Sukumar Sen calls it Old Kamarupi dialect, Golokchnadra Goswami calls it Western Assamese dialect, Sukhbilash Barma calls it Kamrupi dialect, Kamarupa Anusandhan Samiti calls it dialect mix with Sanskrit and Prakrit.

Kamarupa Dialects" not "Kamrupi-dialect This repetitive claims was addressed before how Kamarupa, Vanga, Radha and Varendra are name of places not languages.

If you are trying to draw attention to Chatterji's use of "West Assam (Kamrupa)" then Chatterji would do better to amend his 1920's thesis. The Kamarupa kingdom expanded very rapidly both to the east as well as to the west. The second oldest (or as some claim, the oldest) Kamarupa inscriptions, the 5th century Nagajari Khanikargaon rock inscription, was located in Golaghat Nalanda inscriptions are also available, so thus Nalanda was also within Kamarupa. — Bhaskarbhagawati — (continues after insertion below)

The only new thing you have mentioned here is the Nalanda clay seals. Yes, some do in fact claim that Nalanda was in the control of Bhaskarvarman for some time. He spent 3 years west of the traditional boundaries of Kamarupa. After the death of Harshavardhana, he is said to have helped a chinese invader invade some northern parts of India. And he issued the Nidhanpur copper plates from Karnasuvarna.

Though copper plates and clay seals move (the Kamauli grants were found in Uttar Pradesh), rock inscriptions don't. Bhaskarvarman's brief control over additional regions do not alter the traditional boundaries of Kamarupa. D C Sircar identifies the eastern boundary of Kamarupa with present-day Sadiya. This agrees with the account left by Hiuen Tsang in the 7th century and the Yogoni Tantra composed nearly a thousand years later.

Chaipau (talk) 08:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

And most importantly you are consistently disregarding views of scholars, not only here but in other places too. You should keep in mind that its an encyclopedia not your personal book or blog. But marking for single source for any claim is fine. And title for this article is case of single source, for consistency it can be Kamrupi Prakrit or Kamarupi Prakrita. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 01:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

If you're not going to bother taking this to the next level of dispute resolution, you're just wasting everybody's time. Please go to WP:DR and take the appropriate steps. — Ƶ§œš¹ 02:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The only reason i am not hurrying in to DRN because word "Kamrupi" is as familiar to them as anything on planet X. I appreciate your time and energy on this subject but i urge you to let this matter within me an user Chaipau from now onwards. Thanks for your interest and happy editing ! भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 02:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I too have asked that this matter be presented to DRN. Asking User:aeusoes1 to back off has, to me, WP:Civil issues. Chaipau (talk) 09:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Might I suggest, Chaipau, that we limit talk page responses to encourage BB to take DR to the next step? Otherwise taking the time to provide thoughtful responses is too close to trollfeeding IMHO. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

B Oh, now I realize I could have been doing just that inadvertently. Chaipau (talk) 15:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

POV pushing and quote mining

User:Bhaskarbhagawati is again trying to equate a historical literary language from the 14th century (early Assamese) with a modern dialect (Kamrupi dialect). He is claiming: "So said difference in spoken language of Kamrup from mid India pointed out by Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang was Kamrupi Apabhramsa developing in modern Western Assam region.". This is patently false. One of the salient features of standard Assamese is the shortening of the anterior /a/ in the presence of a following /a/. This is clearly stated in Kamrupi_dialect#Phonology:

In standard Assamese if a word has two /a/ sounds side-by-side, the first /a/ turns into an /ɔ/ or /ɛ/, a feature that became prominent in the early Assamese period. In Kamrupi, two consecutive /a/ are tolerated (star: /taɹa/ (Kamrupi), /tɔɹa/ (Standard)).

Therefore, early Assamese has both standard Assamese as well as Kamrupi features. Unlike what is being claimed above.

I am deleting that sentence.Chaipau (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Then why no scholar mentioning Eastern Assam, Eastern Assamese dialect, Sibsagariya dialect etc in terms of origin or mid literary language. Again original research ? भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 01:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The references are given in the original text. If you want to dispute that this feature of standard Assamese comes from eastern Assamese, go ahead. But that does not even matter. The fact that this linguistic feature of standard Assamese exists in early Assamese shows that early Assamese was not exclusively western Assamese, which is the opposite of what you are trying to claim. Chaipau (talk) 09:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

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