Misplaced Pages

• I was not fully aware of the situation between Niemti and Sjones23 when I made the above comment. I think a mutual interaction ban would probably be best for all involved. Kurtis 06:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I understand that a mutual interaction ban would work, but I have doubts about it since I don't want to talk about that situation. I only got swept up in the controversy back in August against my better judgment and discussions regarding this we're taking place far before his block a week or two ago. Since there are concerns about changing the situation towards me, I am going to back out of this discussion but I am still going to watch it. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 12:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think that's probably a good idea. Being entrenched in one of Misplaced Pages's civility disputes as an involved party is a soul-sucking thing, believe me. I've seen many other good men fall prey to the downward spiral. Kurtis 05:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Neutral on the idea of sitebanning him; closer, please don't count me when you're deciding to close as ban or don't-ban. However, I'm opposed to the mechanics of this proposal. (1) It's not good to community-ban someone indefinitely from appealing a community ban to the community. Arbcom is already too powerful, and giving them the right to officiate in this specific situation when the community will be able to decide to unban or keep-banned is a bad idea, both because they don't need extra things, and because it's wrong to say that the ban may not be appealed to the community. (2) If we enact your proposal, we'll make it harder for him to appeal his siteban than his topic bans. Why? (3) You're using both "banned" and "prohibited" when you appear to mean the same thing; please change one to the other, or please explain why "banned" and "prohibited" aren't the same. (4) Finally, a basic question — why topic-ban someone and siteban him too? Do one or the other, or do neither, but not both. Nyttend (talk) 15:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• It's a menu of options, not a single coherent proposal. NE Ent 16:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support on #1, strongly on #2. The third one would be moot if the first one passes, but would be second choice. Clearly he doesn't care that he's disruptive to others and shows zero desire to change. Wizardman 15:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Undecided on all three points, for the same reason -- there are evident behaviour issues, but the actual content work is definitely non-negligible and if that work could be continued, the encyclopedia ultimately wins. However that doesn't excuse the actions outside of content work and there is also a real possibility or driving off other good editors. I would, without hesitation, Support a fourth, intermediary option of a mutual interaction ban with User:Sjones23 but that doesn't resolve the rest... If anything, option #2 seems reasonable and potentially helpful but I worry that if he cannot improve an article all the way through to GA, including the nomination process, he might not be motivated to work on the articles themselves... I will keep reading the points and remain open to changing my mind. Note I am in no way defending his attitude or behaviour and I believe it is a very important problem; however he's done good article work and if we could find a solution that would still allow the encyclopedia to be improved by his work, that'd be ideal. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 15:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• After seeing the discussions, I am revising my position -- Oppose option 1 because I do not believe the community has been fair and neutral towards Niemti and I believe that some amount of baiting happened. I am however not opposed to having someone review whether the behaviour goes against the conditions of his previous unban. Neutral option 2 because the problems are evident, but not on every review which begs the question of whether the issue really is with Niemti... Oppose option 3 because the quantity and quality of his work is impressive and there are no problems with his editing; merely with his behaviour. Strong Support Interaction Ban between Sjones23 and Niemti; both have agree anyhow. I also believe Sjones23 needs to be reprimanded for his apparent hounding, or at the very least for his inability to disengage despite stating numerous times he was disengaging. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 16:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• 1a. Support site ban per prior AN discussion. here

1b. Oppose appeal to ArbCom provision -- appeal should be to community in six months

2 & 3. Neutral NE Ent 16:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support #2. — ΛΧΣ 16:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Before this gets enacted, I'd like a moment to gather a few diffs and compose a comment please. — Ched :  ?  17:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• I find myself a bit puzzled by the idea that the community would ban him and he could only appeal to arbcom. I'd like some clarification on the logic behind that choice. I would support the idea that WP:BASC act as a gatekeeper, i.e. he must convince them to open the discussion, but as written I don't really get it. However, I believe we made a mistake in lifting this ban in the first place. If we reward someone for socking we can hardly be surprised when what they learn from that is that the rules do not apply to them and they can act however they like without consequence. So, support any and all of the above but would like the wording on the ban idea tweaked slightly. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I see a lot of people are discussing the appeal to arbcom part. So, I've been more passive with this whole thing lately, but I don't think that was something people especially felt strongly about. I think the main idea was the "6 month ban with opportunity to be appealed", I don't believe there was much emphasis meant to be placed on who he appeals to. I could be mistaken though. Sergecross73 msg me 17:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• I endorse this outcome. The idea of appeal to BASC is a form of independent review, and it is a way of forestalling the endless debates between supporters and others that we have seen in the past. Banned users seem not to have a big problem using this process, there are not enough of them to produce any challenge of scale. Guy (Help!) 17:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comments: So, we seem to have taken a 48 hour block, 7 months later pounded a two week (escalated) block on top of that, kept a running list of grievances (which usually get deleted as attack pages in user space) by holding open a Five month long RfC/U (for those unfamiliar with that particular process, it usually doesn't go much beyond ONE month), had a total of Three comments from the accused on his own talk since the block (which basically amount to "meh - I'm not mad, I can use the break anyway".), and a closing of an RfC/U which has been allowed to run longer than most Arbcom cases with a "BAN HIM" proposal. On top of that, somehow we can make this an WP:AE ban? (I must have missed that little memo.) I'd imagine this could even be forced through process before Niemti gets back if we try real hard. I mean after all, his first unclosed ban discussion lasted a total of what? 12 hours? 8 or 9 people commenting - but don't let facts distract anyone from removing an editor that managed to get what? 40 articles to GA?, at least one FA (System Shock 2) - in less than a year? With +85% of his over 40k edits to article space? So let's have a recap shall we? Even though Sjones23, I'm sorry .. "Lord" Sjones23 .. promised multiple times to avoid this editor (personally I consider them to be very unfulfilled promises) - they continue to be a driving force for this ban. (a few interesting reads from just Aug. of last year: link, apology and question, another "question", and this one is nothing short of a real gem - closing the very thread where Nimeti raised the harassment issues - that's a keeper if I ever saw one). Now, going back to the RfC/U for a moment: What do we have as egregious incivility? And I'll just use the direct quotes from the initial links since that seems to be the core of our editor's problems: "I guess you hate chapters in most books", "...now go and renominate", "I told you to stop fucking up my articles, didn't I?" (I'll fully admit that there's some ownership issues with a comment like that), "You've got to be kidding me,", "Now, if you have something to CONTRIBUTE to the article..." and of course: SHOUTING, (zOMG HE USED THE CAPS LOCK KEY). That is what we're banning people for now?

Now I haven't had the time or the desire to review any of allllll those other things this gawd-awful editor has done which required an entire second page of "additional evidence that Lord Sjones23 felt compelled to create, but perhaps others will. The fact is this: Niemti was never given a second chance. He was hounded, baited, and trolled to the point of exhaustion. I don't question that he could improve in the WP:OWNership areas, and perhaps he does need to brush up on WP:BITE (although Lord Sjones23 is hardly a newcomer). While WP:IBAN is about the only thing I could conceivably consider here, typically that doesn't always work as well in practice as it does in print. Either way, this appears to be another one of those forgone conclusions in which we banish an editor. Do people really, honestly, wonder why we have an editor retention problem on this project? Oh well - thanks for holding off on the close so I could formulate my comments. You folks enjoy yourselves. — Ched :  ?  18:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• You do realize he had like 12 blocks under his other account, right? And all of them related the same same sort of problems being addressed at this more recent RFC... Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree with Ched about the extensive wikihounding by Sjones23. There was also some degree of collaboration between a few people to get Niemti banned.My very best wishes (talk) 19:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Bans have been proposed at the wrong venues a couple times now by different editors. They were good faith mistakes though, not an effort to canvass, if that's what you're getting at. Sergecross73 msg me 19:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I am talking about a situation when someone suddenly appears after a month of inactivity, specifically to suggest to sanction Niemti , and then disappears again. Sjones23 campaigned for several months to ban Niemti. But whatever. People with short temper like Niemti are easy targets. My very best wishes (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh ok, gotcha. Yeah, I cross paths at WP:VG with Bridies, but I'm not especially familiar with that editor or his/her editing habits/patterns, so I really can't attest to that... Sergecross73 msg me 20:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Bridies has clearly stated in this discussion, "I'm no longer contributing and am resolved not do so again. Though likewise, Niemti was only partially responsible, in addition to the incredibly alienating get-over-it comments and the gloating in the aftermath from other editors, in addition to the User:Jagged_85 episode (I've not so much as seen it mentioned on the WP:VG talk page that thousands of our VG history articles have been compromised by misinformation) and the ever-present anonymous incompetency and vandalism... Which just added up to the sensation that editing here is too much like pissing in the wind these days. I also had the epiphany that VG content editors almost universally supported banning Niemti; as someone who almost exclusively edited old VG articles, I don't see why see why I should be burdened by anyone else's dogma. What I'd really love to see is a site devoted to, say, pre-2000 video games (and thus potentially complete-able), with similar goals as Misplaced Pages (NPOV, free-access encyclopaedia), and which could compete in terms of search engine optimisation, but with editorial standards, real name and civility requirements, and more closed authorship." I am not interested in discussing the Wikihounding issues anymore. This has nothing to do with the present situation. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you please answer a question: why did this new wave of activity about Niemti (as follows from this edit history) has started on March 22 while he was blocked? My very best wishes (talk) 03:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

You are either mistaken or cherry picking. Discussions regarding this we're taking place far before his block a week or two back. Sergecross73 msg me 04:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I just want to note that System Shock 2 was promoted to featured article by me, not Niemti. — ΛΧΣ 05:19, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not opining on any of the proposals. I just wanted to help close a 4-month old RFC/U that wasn't going anywhere. I'll take the sole blame for the list of possible sanctions being so inartfully drafted as to resist even Sandstein's brave effort to clean up the language. The reason I wrote "appeal to ArbCom" was simply to preclude an individual admin from lifting the ban if enacted, which appears to be what happened last time around. The suggestion above that WP:BASC act as a gatekeeper before the community considers an un-ban sounds like a better option. I was unfamiliar with that committee. I am happy to accept that suggestion as a friendly amendment. Fladrif (talk) 18:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• First of all, I'm so very sorry about what is going on the project here. At the time when Niemti was unbanned, I provided very inconclusive evidence on my part, and I tried to desperately solve the problem in August, but ended up getting nowhere fast to be honest and I've obviously moved on from the "wikihounding" issue and those things in August are water under the bridge and I wish to put these issues by Ched to rest. I know better to wikihound, bait or troll anyone in the first place. I have been trying to ignore him due to his attitude. And let it be known that being a producer of good content is never an excuse for incivil behavior and I tried to desperately avoid him but I was concerned about his behavior. Niemti has some serious communication errors here, but I made a mistake in promising to avoid the editor (that promise was not permanent), and I am aware about what problems he has here. Let me decide whether I should avoid Niemti or not. Unfortunately, Niemti was topic banned from a biographical article for this exact same behavior. The additional evidence subpage was created at the suggestion of Izno and we have had numerous discussions on his behavior at WT:VG. We need more uninvolved editors to take a look at the situation. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I will comment on one thing, and one thing only. I most definitely Support an interaction ban as proposed by User:Salvidrim and User:Ched above, with teeth in it, between User:Niemti and User:Sjones23. The comment above says to me that Sjones23 is either clueless or in complete denial about his own continual and ongoing WP:Wikihounding, including a lovely display of gravedancing on the occasion of the current block being imposed. Ched's assessment of that is right on the number. Fladrif (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Fladrif. I can understand that Ched is concerned here and I am so sorry about this once again. If I did anything wrong or clueless or did something to upset you, then I can say one thing: I am sorry and can express deep regret for what I have done back in August. That promise to avoid the user was because I was not sure much can be done about his behavior. But based on his behavior, he was basically uncooperative. I know that I was trying to avoid Niemti but in the end, I let my judgment get the best of me since I do know better than to wikihound or harass this user. I think a possible interaction ban would simply help out very much for me and increase my moral support. If you are concerned about anything my behaviour, bring it up on WP:ANI or discuss it on my talk page. This discussion should not be here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:41, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you familiarize yourself with WP:PETARD Fladrif (talk) 18:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I understand where you, Salvidrim and Ched come from with an interaction ban on Niemti and myself. Unfortunately, even though I would support Salvidrim's proposal of an interaction ban without hesitation at a later time and Sergecross73 recommended that I should avoid Niemti because he was causing me a lot of stress, I have doubts about the interaction ban and those comments do not really alleviate any concerns on Niemti's behavior though as most of it took place back before the block. As what Betty Logan (talk · contribs) pointed out to me, the problem with "promising to "avoid" him is that might mean you won't be able to edit the articles you want to edit if there is a large overlap between your editing areas." Having been a user for over 6 years, I understand all of the policies and guidelines, assume good faith and am also a competent editor while maintaining a nice and friendly attitude, and try not to bite any newcomers nor do I intend to harass other users. People dictating what other should be doing by editing articles or what they should be doing with their time is not acceptable behavior. And actually, I have made very valuable contributions in fact. Just to let everyone understand, Niemti's condescending and incoherent attitude does not gain any support for others and that has unfortunately made me lose my temper over it after I got swept up in the controversy against my better judgment back in August, but I got over that quickly. And also, accusing someone of lying would be considered a personal attack and no one can know what people have in their minds, nor can they make conclusions about strangers or other users. It's only stalking if the edits are not done in good faith, but mine are always in good faith and trying to improve upon other's edits, including Niemti's. By the way, Niemti is a good editor when it comes to editing articles but his talk page discussions can be very poisonous to the atmosphere and he is persistently uncooperative. Only if Niemti changes his hostile attitude would I reconcile with him. As what Salvidrim pointed out, demoralizing good editors harms the collaborative atmosphere of Misplaced Pages. To be honest, I have tried my best to avoid contact with Niemti whenever possible. As what Sergecross73 pointed out to me, I pursued this too aggressively, so if I cause any trouble, I apologize for what I might have done and I never intend to go over my head, but I still believe that the wikihounding case against me was not substantiated, even though I am a longtime and good-natured contributor who has contributed extensively to several film articles and video game articles (specifically the Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts series). Unfortunately, the negative effect Niemti has on Misplaced Pages outweighs the positives of his contributions, and I don't want to get in over my head when no one is here to defend me. No gravedancing was intended on my part. The additional evidence subpage is not an attack page at all. In any case, I am not at all clueless, nor am I interested in discussing the Wikihounding issues anymore as I want to put these past issues behind us and focus on the current issue here. This is a discussion about proposing sanctions on Niemti, who has had like at least 12 blocks under his different account, HanzoHattori (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), so Niemti has been a user for over 6 years now. For more information, see also Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/HanzoHattori and this discussion regarding his un-banning. Also, per Sergecross73's recommendation, I have decided not to participate for now, unless directly addressed, so that the focus of the sanctions would not be misdirected on to myself. To everyone here, please do not go off-topic as this discussion is getting us nowhere fast, and please let this ban discussion go on for a while before deciding on a consensus. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I have had zero interaction with Niemti. (by coincidence I just picked up and article for GA review and noticed that it was written by them (looks like an immense amount of work on a topic that nobody else likely would have done, and could use a bit more work before GA) but they have been blocked and I've had no discussions.) I see nothing in the diffs or evidence at the RFC/U supporting such an extreme measure, and I am becoming more and more distressed by vague lynchings at ani and an, and so am opposing this from a fair and due process standpoint. North8000 (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive238#User:HanzoHattori, now editing as Niemti: discussion regarding un-banning may be relevant.

  As for my opinion on the actual topics, I would personally oppose #1 or #3 based on my experience and the information collected for the RFC. #2 I would support (and possibly a ban from FA space as well; I foresee the same issues occurring there, but I'm not strongly attached). I might also suggest a 1RR restriction on Niemti, as well as possibly a suggestion of a ban from any talk space. Just some ideas. He's a good article writer, but his talk-space input can be poisonous to the collegial atmosphere. No comment on an interaction ban. --Izno (talk) 19:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose for the following reasons. First, I agree with comment by Ched (see above). I think this is classic hikihounding by Sjones23. He refused to talk with Niemti , blindly reverted his edits without talking ,, complained about him numerous times on administrative noticeboards and to several individual administrators, promised not to do it again (links by Ched), but continued the same. I noticed this problem some time ago and provided some advice to Sjones23, but he apparently refused to follow. Secondly, after looking at the edit history of this RfC, I can see a few last comments in the middle of February and a couple in the end of February. On March 18, Niemty was blocked for two weeks; I assume he was blocked properly for some kind of wrongdoing. Starting from March 22 (same edit history), almost a month later and while Niemti was blocked, a wave of new activity was started in the RfC by edit of Sjones23. Why? Niemti was blocked and obviously did nothing during this time. It is customary to allow a blocked editor to return back and show that he can do better after the block. Going after someone when he is serving his block and did nothing new is not a good idea.My very best wishes (talk) 19:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1 & 2; support 3 if 1 fails. I've only interacted with Niemti at Anita Sarkeesian, where his unacceptable behavior got him permanently banned, but the consensus at the RFC/U is that the problems he displayed there are much more pervasive. That's borne out with a simple look at his contributions. In terms of GAs, I honestly couldn't believe that things like Ayane (Dead or Alive), Ibuki (Street Fighter), or Ada Wong were GAs. His flooding the GA queue and refusal to do anything but the bare minimum of work has had a negative effect on the GA process. This is besides his rudeness and behavioral problems. At this point the negative effect he has on Misplaced Pages far outweighs the positives of his contributions, and the problem isn't going away on its own.--Cúchullain /c 19:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I agree with various others that appeals of these bans should be made to the community.--Cúchullain /c 17:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment There is a problem, and it has been an ongoing problem, even if we discount all the problems before his last ban was lifted. I've sat on the sidelines since opposing his unblock (on technical grounds, I supported the idea of giving him a second chance) and have noted several ongoing issues that he has handled in a less than stellar manner. That he only participated a few times in a five month RFC/U isn't a testament to his innocence, but more of a failure to acknowledge the consequences of his actions. I would have to think a while before I offered a firm opinion on what action should be taken, however, doing nothing isn't really an option. At the end of the day, he could have done a great deal more than he has to be a productive member of the community. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support 2, Oppose 1&3. It's obvious that he isn't the most likable guy, but that's not a good reason to site ban him. Unfortunately, ban discussions like this tend to attract people with personal grudges--that's an obvious weakness of our system. As much as some people love to impose bans, there's really no good reason to do so in this case. His mass GA nominations seem to have been an issue, so let's stop that. We shouldn't use that as an excuse to jump to the "nuclear option" though. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support 1, and if that is not accepted then support 2 & 3 as a very poor second best. This is a very disruptive and uncooperative editor, with a history of numerous blocks since 2006: , . He has had "second chances" and shown no sign of becoming more cooperative. He has used numerous sockpuppet accounts: see Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of HanzoHattori and Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of HanzoHattori, which, which are not a complete list, as Niemti, for example, is not included. His disruptive behaviour has bee discussed numerous times on administrators' noticeboards: , , twice that I know of at RfC: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Niemti, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/HanzoHattori. I am never a great fan of the view that arrogant uncooperative and disruptive editors should not be blocked if they also do a significant amount of editing that is considered good, and for this editor the case for that is even weaker than it sometimes is. The sheer amount of time and effort that could have been employed usefully but has instead been wasted on this editor is considerable: not only in the discussions I have mentioned, but on talk pages, in undoing his damage, etc etc. The point was long ago reached when it was clear that the amount of disruption and waste of effort that this editor was causing outweighed any benefit. He has made it abundantly clear many times that he has contempt for Misplaced Pages's processes and policies, has responded to discussions about his behaviour flippantly and contemptuously: , , has made it clear that he has no intention of collaborating, no intention of dropping his ownership stance, etc etc. All this has been going on since 2006, and, during that time, he has shown no sign whatever of changing his attitude. He was permanently banned, , but the Niemti sockpuppet account was controversially unblocked by an administrator following a discussion which could not by any reasonable stretch of the imagination be considered to provide a consensus for lifting the ban. In short, we have an editor who, over a period of over six years, has been disruptive, deliberately uncooperative, uncivil, etc etc, and Misplaced Pages would be better off without him. The only thing I am in any doubt about concerning the ban proposal is why we should invite him to apply to arbcom for an unban in six months: if in six years he has shown no sign of wishing to become a collaborative contributor, why should he be likely to change in six more months? JamesBWatson (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, and your assessment, as well as Dennis Brown's, Sergecross's and Salvidrim's appear to be the most accurate to me. Even if he applies to Arbcom to unban him for six months, HanzoHattori/Niemti unfortunately shows no sign of wishing to become a collaborative contributor. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support 2, mainly because that is the area I am most familiar with. Neimti has a poor track record of collaborating with anyone that he disagrees with and in the course of a review you are going to get editors asking questions regarding your content. I have a real fear that a newish reviewer is going to pick up one of his articles and have such a bad experience that they will not return, something we can seldom afford with the shortage of reviewers we currently have. I am less familiar with the other proposals, but looking at the circumstances in which he was unblocked and the behaviour thereafter I think we would be better off just reinstating the original ban. AIRcorn (talk) 02:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose all Seems whenever I find people complaining about Niemti the facts don't justify the allegations. The GA reviews are pretty poor. One of the instances I saw, that is noted in the "additional evidence" section linked above, involved the reviewing editor quickfailing based on a cherry-picking of sources that represented at most 10% of the references and even that was supporting very little of the actual material in the article. Vast majority of the sourcing for substantive material was high quality secondary sourcing (UGO, IGN, and other reputable gaming news outlets) with the next largest chunk being primary sourcing to official materials. Not a legitimate quickfail by far. Some of the objections to sourcing seemed to be more the result of a gag reflex than a product of serious review, the claim that "YouTube is not a reliable source" is not credible when the video is an interview with an identifiable person on the official channel of a press organization. When this is a review and article that is supposedly a stellar example of Niemti's problems with the GA process, I am left convinced that the ones who we should be concerned about are those who want to ban a prolific content creator for these kinds of trivialities.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1 (with appeal to BASC or community), followed by 2 and 3 upon return. Niemti's responses to this thread have pushed me over the line to supporting a ban - there appears to be a complete unwillingness to see or believe that he has issues with editing in a civil and collegial manner. It doesn't matter if you believe you're "right" if you nevertheless can't edit without blowing your top spectacularly and endlessly. It's sad when someone who produces good work otherwise can't function within our environment, and I never want to see people like that be "eternal" blocks/bans, but until they're at least attempting to work on the problem behavior we can't allow them to run roughshod over everyone else. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

In fact, he can function very well in wikipedia environment as long as he edits alone or with other contributors who are willing to compromise, especially on minor issues (that is what I did). However, he has problems in discussions with multiple editors who accuse him of something (like here on ANI) or want him banned, or strongly disagree on minor issues and make a big deal of their disagreements (such as linking or not linking to something). And he is not alone; there are other contributors with the same problem, perhaps including myself. Having that in mind, he obviously made a mistake by making his statement on ANI and participating in this discussion, instead of sitting out quietly. My very best wishes (talk) 18:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Support 1, 2, and Support 3 if the first two are opposed. The guy simply refuses to collaborate with anyone, using his tens of thousands of page edits to justify his "I'm holier than thou" personality. For someone who is constantly pushing Misplaced Pages policy articles into people's faces when they don't agree with him (in the Wasteland 2 discussion I was involved in, he did nothing but rudely throw WP:OR links everywhere without considering any differing viewpoints), he blatantly dismisses the core policy WP:CIVIL. He will either dismiss others' asking him to stop being rude, or he will use the other editors' "stupidity" or "stalking" as justification for being rude. Whether or not the interaction between Niemti and Sjones23 can be seen by some as "provoking" Niemti to behave poorly, it is still not an excuse to continue being rude, and Niemti's general behavioral issues have extended far beyond that and with numerous other people, as shown by the original RfC. His reaction to the recent 2 week ban "Oh well, I needed a break" shows that even warnings and temporary bans will not persuade him to change. I and many others have said this before: good article work is not an excuse for rude, uncivil behavior. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 16:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support 2 and 3 - My view is the disruption caused by the number of editors who now refuse to work with Niemti is a fairly big issue. Regardless of his good contributions he's having the effect of pushing away other editors and this outweighs his positive contribs. Cabe6403 20:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1, 2, and 3 - note that I am the admin that gave him his current/most recent block. I really feel that Niemti is on some level incapable of working with other editors in a civil manner. Pretty much every conversation of any length he is involved in gets turned into a fight, resulting in his previous ban and blocks. It took him only three days after my warning to get blocked for 2 weeks, and I don't think it will take much longer for the next one if nothing results from here. He's already blown up at someone after misreading their comment (redacted in the above section)- this may be an extenuating circumstance, but how hard is it to not freak out at people in the discussion about banning you for freaking out at people? If Niemti was capable of playing nice with other editors, he would have learned to do so 2 weeks ago or the previous time he was blocked or when he was banned or the other times he was blocked. He won't learn, he wastes more time and effort that he puts in to the project, he needs to go. --PresN 22:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Note: The comment that Niemti went back and redacted a few hours later in the "statement by Niemti" section about is reproduced here- I thought it was relevant.

ThomasO1989, "in the Wasteland 2 discussion I was involved in, he did nothing but rudely throw WP:OR links everywhere"

WHAT

WHATTT

THIS, this is an incredibly blatant shameless lie, becuause it was actually a literally COMPLETELY OPPOSITE situation - in reality, I was refusing to agree to use WP:OR as Misplaced Pages defines it and instead fought for using what reliable sources say (in this case: the developers themselves and media reports, which reported in only one way), before I eventually just stopped caring - AND it was ThomasO1989 who was pushing the OR there! Anyone can check it and see! The truth about my real position there, which was actually just absolutely clearly AGAINST any kind of OR, that is now so outrageously being attempted to be totally falsfied, can be probably best seen with this edt - yes this was regarding precisely this very dispute, there were few more statements by me in the same thread, all squarely against any form of OR, before I simply lost all interest and just abandoned this discussion (because I've realized it's not even important and I'm really wasting time for nothing) and let the other users involved agree whatever they would.

And now no I'm logging out, because it was just so awful it made me really angry and just physically ill, I'm shaking now. I just can't believe it. Such lies. What the hell. WTF. No, that's enough,I'm done with that thing here, no more looking. --Niemti (talk) 18:55, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support 1, 2, and 3 - Yet another editor that had too many "last chances" and felt invulnerable as a result. The long term abusive behavior has to stop somewhere. Let's call it right here, right now, since the evidence is clear. Thanks to those who have done the heavy lifting regarding this editor and have stayed on target. Hopefully your efforts will be rewarded with a full ban, and the encyclopedia will be a better place. Jusdafax 00:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose, per Ched. This seems to be a case study in uneven enforcement of civility, in which a group of editors has targeted an editor (not an angel) over half a year. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support 1, 2, and 3 Enough is enough. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • AAPT) 03:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Counter proposal

How about an interaction ban, as above (mutual, not unilateral of course) and "civility parole"? Guy (Help!) 12:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose (this will be my final decision on the interaction ban, but mostly remaining neutral on it, as well as the civility parole) per Fluffernutter and Beeblebrox. Though I partially agree on a proposal not to interacting with this user with regret, I apologize if I was wikistalking (whether intentionally or unintentionally) or uncivil towards any user (including Niemti) in any way (it was never my intention to do so, as I have many positive contributions) and that some of the comments towards me were sometimes off-based. If Niemti does not change his behavior to fit what is expected of Misplaced Pages, I would rather ignore him. At this point, I really don't care about whether I would support or oppose the interaction ban anymore nor do I care about the wikistalking issues, my only concern was on Niemti's incivility and an inability to work well with others (myself included). I'm sure I did not mean to harass anyone, or break any policy in doing so. I sometimes argue with users over different interpretations of policies and guidelines. Just to clarify, it's only stalking if the edit is not done in good faith. I have been mostly civil, but I feel that I do not want sanctions placed on me at this time. Also, my apparent inability to disengage from the user was an error on my part if I had done so and I did not really mean to disengage from him permanently. I tried to be objective in those previous ANI discussions, but his temper got the better of me and I deny nothing. The truth is, I have not made any promises at all and I did not mean to say disengage permanently. Promises can be broken after all. Niemti will have to apologize to me as well if he changes his behavior. The civility parole is pointless obviously as it doesn't work for me. However, I have doubts that IBANs will throw issues under the carpet, if an editor raises a conduct issue about another, it should be resolved rather thrown under the carpet. It will just prevent one editor from scrutinizing another or following up at DR regardless of the fact he's giving a narrow scrutiny (with explanation of it). To quote ThomasO1989, "Niemti simply refuses to collaborate with anyone, using his tens of thousands of page edits to justify his "I'm holier than thou" personality. Whether or not the interaction between Niemti and Sjones23 can be seen by some as "provoking" Niemti to behave poorly, it is still not an excuse to continue being rude." Regardless of Niemti's positive contributions to the project, he tries to drive others away from the project and this outweighs his positive contributions and my point is that Niemti is actually wasting of the community's time with his arguments. However, as what ThomasO1989 pointed out to me, regurgitating what others say will probably not help my case at all and right now, an interaction ban might be pointless in my opinion. Per Beeblebrox, the above proposal to accommodate a user who is unwilling to behave in a civilized manner will seriously cause too much drama for everyone. With that said, I have made an official decision: I will have absolutely no choice but to entirely bail out of this increasingly obtuse discussion for good unless directly addressed so that the focus would not be misdirected at me and I will let other editors to pursue this thread and the above ban discussion. I feel physically sick. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 12:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Just to clarify, what is a civility parole?  Sandstein  15:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I was wondering about that too. If it's pretty much like what it sounds like, it sounds like it would either be pointless, or he's already there. The reason he was given his current 2 week block was because he was warned by an Admin that no more incivility would be tolerated, and mere days later he found himself blocked... Sergecross73 msg me 15:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
    • It's pretty much like it sounds. For x amount of time, he would not be allowed to make any incivil remarks. Violating that would be an instant block (potentially indef). As you say, it seems kinda pointless right now. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
  • A civility parole is where we tell an editor they have to follow the "civility" pillar that everyone is supposed to follow but, since we never actually come to consensus on what is or isn't "civil," it's not very useful (as noted by sandwich et. al. below). NE Ent 21:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Both editors have now agreed to interaction ban. Although it is virtually impossible to keep up with Sjones' torrent of posts and revisions on this page, he has unequivocally posted several times that he would support an interaction ban, and Niemti's statement on his talk page states that he would support an interaction ban. Given this agreement from the affected parties, (and Sjones' apparent inability to disengage, notwithstanding repeated promises to do so) the interaction ban should be immediately endorsed as a community sanction on both editors, with escalating blocks as a sanction if violated by either party. Fladrif (talk) 15:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Civility paroles, we have learned through long, painful experience as a community, simply don't work. Everyone has a different idea of what civil and uncivil, and of where the line between them lies, and possible parole violations just end up being debated again on ANI and ending in the same result or lack thereof as if no parole had been in place to begin with. A single or pair of "civility mentor(s)", who had the authority to block and have it stick if he was uncivil, might work if the blocks are designed to be sticky enough. A general "civility parole" free-for-all won't. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Pretty much per fluff's comment above. This type of bending over backward to accommodate a user who is obviously completely uninterested in ever behaving in a civilized manner just prolongs the drama with little to no benefit. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment He's pretty much on "civility parole" right now, seeing as I blocked him for 2 weeks at the first incident after my warning, and will block him again for longer for the next one (ignoring discussions related to this AN section). I don't see that making it more "official" changes anything. --PresN 22:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - In my view, we need to lance the boil, not put a band-aid on it. Jusdafax 00:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• No offence Guy, but every time I hear the term civility parole, I let out an emphatically sullen groan. History has shown, as Fluffernutter says above, that such measures are more drama than they're worth. Kurtis 11:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fluffernutter. We can't even all agree on what "civil" means, enforcement will just ensure more drama. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Jones has already agreed to back off voluntarily; "civility parole" is one of those nice ideas that just don't work in practice. We need to deal with the real problem, which extends far beyond this particular interaction.--Cúchullain /c 17:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

A running count on the proposals

Having in mind that AN is not a vote, but an attempt to reach consensus, here is what I have as the current (Noon Eastern April 2) input on the various proposals, the pace of comments having slowed considerably the past couple of days.

Note: The totals for proposal #4 do not count the involved parties. Neimti supports; Sjones23 most recently states "Oppose...but mostly remaining neutral"

I'll take full blame for any inaccuracy or misinterpretation in characterizing or counting any of the positions enumerated above. My own take on this is that, as of the present, there is no consensus on #1 or #3; there is close to consensus to approve #2 and #4; there is clear consensus to reject #5. Others may view the situation differently, and consensus could easily change with more editor input. I presume that Sandstein or another admin will decide when and how to close. Fladrif (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Neimti Results

Section for results analysis of Neimti. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

How can we deal with 78.160.xxx.xx? Hundreds of disruptive edits per week

A long list of Misplaced Pages articles are currently under attack by an extremely persistent Turkish nationalist who edit wars, vandalizes and pushes an almost absurd POV. For just a fraction of the articles targeted, see this list that only covers article vandalised today. What this user does is to try to make the whole world Turkish. Virtually any person that ever lived in an area covering almost all of Eurasia can be claimed as Turkish by this user. It is of course utter nonsense, and we are a small army of users reverting this POV-warrior, but the fact that they constantly change IP makes it well nigh impossible to deal with them. As far as I can tell, there are two possible solutions:

• 1. We semi-protect all articles they target. That is what we have been doing this far, a long list of articles was semi-protected a few days ago, and I hope an admin can deal with this list very soon. There are two problems to this approch: we are constantly one step behind, and over time we will end up with hundreds of semi-protected articles just because of any exceptionally disruptive user.
• 2. We block the range 78.160.xxx.xx. I was first against that approach, but I'm starting to think it's the best. Yes, it's a large range, but there is no reason users within that range could not register accounts and edit. Within this range are at least 20-30 IPs the user has been using, and I would estimate at least 200-300 disuptions only in the last week. It's never the same IP, none of the IPs involved in the attacks a few days ago are involved now.
  

This is a rather troublesome situation, and it has already taken up quite a lot of time for a large number of responsible editors (including User:Al Ameer son, User:Binksternet, User:Kansas Bear, User:Ahmetyal, User:Faizan Al-Badri, User:Zheek, User:Adam Bishop and myself) who all revert the POV-warrior Something needs to be done about this extreme user.Jeppiz (talk) 22:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Addition. I've notified the users mentioned in my post. I have no idea how to notify the POW-warrior with the dynamic IP but I left the AN-notice of one of the many IPs they've been using today.Jeppiz (talk) 22:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I recommend indefinite semi-protection for all targeted articles. Binksternet (talk) 22:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

That is an option. But then we need a system that makes it more automatic. As soon as we detect this user targeting new articles, it should be possible to report it and have the articles indefinitely semi-protected. It's been many hours since I reported the list of articles targeted today, about 20-30 articles. They haven't yet been semi-protected and all have since been targeted again and reverted by the same POV warrior.Jeppiz (talk) 22:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I have begun with temporary semi-protections of this list but I need to log out now. Regarding the range block it should be noted that the 85.99.xx range has also been involved . De728631 (talk) 23:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Support both Solutions, but the second one is more appropriate! How many Articles would we semi-protect? These IPs should be banned, or a range-ban should be there, but account creation should remain enabled in the IP range to facilitate Misplaced Pages contributors. Faizan (talk) 05:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment. I suggest disable "anonymous editing/IP editing" and enable "account creation" for those range of IPs. Because those IPs are shared/dynamic addresses and maybe another user/editor needs to create an account. I also support Jeppiz's solutions to deal with this situation. Zheek (talk) 08:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

How frequently does his IP change? Every few days? Hours? Minutes? Thanks. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The IP changes every few hours, I haven't counted but I think there were at least five different IPs yesterday, but obviously by the same user. Same thing a few days earlier, lots of different IPs in quick succession. Like Zheek and Faizan I think we should consider disabling editing from the range 78.160.xxx.xx as well as 85.99.xx but keep account creation enabled. In the end, it's a more convenient option that eventually semi-protecting hundreds of articles just because of one disruptive person.Jeppiz (talk) 10:07, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Another option would be to use the edit filter, blocking IP editors from this address range from editing only those articles that contain specific keywords. It's a bit of a pain to implement, but has successfully stopped several similar incidents in the past. However, in the short run, I think rangeblocking anonymous editing from those address ranges while still allowing edits from logged-in users is the best way to go until a more nuanced solution can be developed. -- The Anome (talk) 11:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. --John (talk) 11:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done I've now applied anon-only rangeblocks to both of those /16s, with account creation enabled, for a period of two weeks. Let's see what happens now. -- The Anome (talk) 11:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

And if they return? Zheek (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I unarchived the RFPP and {{tlx}}'ed anything that would get it re-archived, so the list will still be there for any admin who wants to provide a liberal dose of semi-protection (or pending changes if it becomes less frequent). Or, for broader solutions, there's always the option of blocking more ranges or, if the IP-hopper starts creating accounts, blocking account creation on the ranges that are already blocked (if that needs to happen, someone should file at WP:SPI#Quick CheckUser requests to check that they're still on the same ranges, and approximate the extent of the collateral damage.) — PinkAmpers& 22:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Good. It's better that editors and admins keep watching targeted articles and monitor those IPs' activities (maybe IP-hopper will use new range of IPs). I will report if I find similar activities and new targeted articles. Zheek (talk) 23:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Not solved yet

This new IP 95.5.25.10 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is definitely the same user, continuing the quest of Turkifying most of the world.Jeppiz (talk) 10:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Targeted articles:

• Template:History of the Turks pre-14th century
• Touman, Uldin, Charaton, Octar, Rugila, Bleda, Ellac, Dengizich, and Ernakh (Hunnic rulers).

Please review Template:History of the Turks pre-14th century version history. He/She (currently 95.5.25.10) has used many IPs (different ranges). Compare those IPs' edits and edit summaries on that template and template talk. This IP-hopper will return. Zheek (talk) 11:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Returned with another IP: 95.5.20.110 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (95.5.X.X), diff. Zheek (talk) 11:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Range 95.5.16.0/20 (up to 4096 users would be blocked). No one else is using this range right now, so I will block it for two weeks. -- Dianna (talk) 15:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dianna. Zheek (talk) 09:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• IP-hopper has not returned in the last/recent 24 hours. It seems that his/her most used IPs are blocked. Zheek (talk) 15:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Zheek. I am glad this has worked. At least two IP addresses are required to calculate a range block, but the more the better. If/when the problem resumes, please collect all the IPs they use so the tightest possible range block can be calculated. I'm not sure which board is the best one to post at, probably the highly-watched WP:ANI. I think it's now safe to mark as Declined the related page protection requests at WP:RFPP, so I have gone ahead and done that. -- Dianna (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dianna. Good, we keep watching all targeted articles. Thanks for your helpful suggestion. Zheek (talk) 18:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to unblock User:Kalki

I propose to unblock User:Kalki. Kalki has been indefblocked since October of 2010 for editing from an absurdly large number of accounts (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Kalki/Archive). However, so far as I can tell he neither engaged in vandalism, nor used those accounts to vote multiple times in discussions (although I believe there may have been some occasions where he contributed to a discussion using two different accounts). It seems, rather, that Kalki's sockpuppetry was motivated primarily by a quixotic desire on his part to do good deeds without taking credit for them. Following Kalki's block here, he was desysopped at English Wikiquote for basically the same reasons, but was allowed to continue editing, although clearly limited to one account. In the intervening two years, Kalki has consistently been one of the top contributors to Wikiquote, both as a content creator and as a vandal fighter. Although he certainly has some quirks in terms of his editing preferences, and we have had strong disagreements on issues of style and page arrangement, it is clear to me that Wikiquote benefits from his involvement. I believe that Misplaced Pages would also benefit from Kalki being able to edit here, and I his generally good behavior on Wikiquote leaves me with no reason to believe that he would repeat the sockpuppetry that got him in trouble in the first place. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be best if we heard something from them, like, do they even care or want to be unblocked. they appear to have talk page access and can appeal this themselves whenever they wish. Unless and until they do that I see no need for a community discussion of the matter. Indeed, after such a long time it would probably be a fairly simple matter for them to just get unblocked by promising to limit themselves to one account in the future.apparently that is not the case, but it would be a start anyway... Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I notified Kalki of my proposal to unblock, and he certainly seems to want to be unblocked. I'll ask him to respond to your point. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I would adamantly oppose an unblock, primarily on the basis of Kalki's behavior on Wikiquote, where he used multiple sockpuppets to essentially maintain single-handed control of that project. There was nothing there that was indicative of any desire to do good deeds without taking credit for it, Kalki routinely brought out the socks to back him up whenever another editor disagreed with him. His behavior, and unwillingness to compromise, drove me off that project before it was revealed that he was socking to an absurd extent - and it should be remembered that he was the sole bureaucrat there at the time.

Now, off-wiki behavior is not normally considered when determining on-Wiki decisions, but I feel that Kalki's behavior on Wikiquote must be taken into account, as it demonstrates that he is not beyond lying, deception, (that's what pretending to be someone else is) and misusing a Wiki for his own purposes. I see absolutely no reason why we should assume that this leopard has changed his spots. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I've posted a neutrally-worded pointer to this discussion on the Village Pump at en.wikiquote. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Kalki has made a statement as to this proposal on his talk page. I agree that Kalki's behavior both here and on Wikiquote was bad, but that was several years ago. I believe that, his occasionally overwrought contributions to discussions aside, he has basically been rehabilitated. We can always unblock him now, and reimpose the block if he actually engages in improper behavior. bd2412 T 21:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

You're assuming that any misbehavior would be under this account name, aren't you? But the basic problem with Kalki was his devious socking, and sockpuppetry does not come to light as easily as disruptive editing, and it is much easier for the master and the socks to argue against it, at least until a CU gets involved. Do we know that Kalki hasn't been socking since he's been blocked, has a CU run a scan? Has he taken responsibility for his malfeasance at Wikiquote, or, like DanielTom below, does he think that his blocking and desysoping there was "harrassment"?

It's not so easy to accept that someone has been "rehabilitated" when their misbehavior has been on the scale of Kalki's, who single-handedly controlled a Wikimedia Project for a long time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection to conditioning a removal of the block on a Checkuser review, both here and on Wikiquote. While I disagree with the assertion that Kalki's desysopping was "harassment", it has been abundantly clear since then that there is a single editor who was a strong advocate of that process, and who continues to take every opportunity to provoke Kalki. I must say, also, that I have been editing Wikiquote for eight years now, to the tune of over 65,000 edits, and although I have had numerous disagreements with Kalki over issues ranging from punctuation in citations to limitations on the number of quotes and images on a page, I have never felt like he controlled the outcome of those discussions. Despite his sockpuppetry (and his theoretical ability to overwhelm discussions with sockpuppet support) he was most often either on the losing side of the discussion, or on the side shared by a solid majority of the many editors who were not, and are not sockpuppets. In other words, Kalki did not, at any time that I witnessed, "maintain single-handed control of that project". bd2412 T 23:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Clearly, our Wikiquote experiences differed, fair enough. I have no interest in continuing to "prosecute" this, I think it's quite obvious that I do not consider Kalki to be trustworthy, and feel that an unblock is unwarranted, especially since no really good reason has been given for one -- simply having been blocked for X amount of time is no reason that one should be unblocked, and the hyperbolic hosannas expressed by DanielTom below are less than creditable. I guess, if you do decide to go ahead, a CU clearance would be a minimum step. I'll back away now and let others have their say. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. However, I must point out that my basis for proposing this is not merely that X amount of time has passed, but that during that time, Kalki has continued to be an effective contributor on Wikiquote. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree on one point, namely that Kalki's behavior on Wikiquote must be taken into account, but that is exactly why I give my strongest possible SUPPORT to this proposal to unblock Kalki, and I commend bd2412 for bringing this up.

Sorry to say, but Beyond My Ken completely misrepresents what actually happened on Wikiquote, and his assertions about Kalki are simply FALSE. Even those who in the past persecuted (or, in my opinion, harassed) and quite improperly blocked him, could not find compelling evidence that he ever made abusive edits with any of his many other accounts, on any project, discounting one or two minor incidents which Kalki maintains to have been unintentional mistakes; now contrast that with the 90 000 constructive edits that Kalki has made overall, over the past 10 years, on Wikiquote alone, and you can get some perspective.

Just for the record, the Wikiquote policy doesn't actually forbid the use of other, secondary, accounts, except when they are used for vandalism, which is something that Kalki has NEVER done. (A Wikiquote sock puppet is another account belonging to a user, used for causing trouble, vandalism or as a way to get around Wikiquote's policies — based on that definition, I should even object to calling Kalki a "sockpuppeteer".)

Now, I urge you, let's please, please keep in mind here that we are talking about one of the most knowledgeable and capable users in existence either on Wikiquote or Misplaced Pages (as well as in other projects), whose positive contributions to said projects have been much greater than I could ever express here. I think that it should be crystal-clear to anyone not blinded by intolerance that Misplaced Pages is losing a very valuable editor indeed. Let's not make the same mistake again.

Speaking for myself, and with the best interests of Misplaced Pages in mind, I once again urge everyone here to consider doing the proper thing, which is to unlock Kalki — who is, after all, one of the earliest and most precious editor we as a community have — and I sincerely hope that one day everyone will come to realize how privileged we are to have him and to work along side him, in our joint effort to improve Misplaced Pages. Thanks... ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that DanielTom's account dates from last October, and he has 214 edits, and yet he knows that Kalki is "one of the earliest and most precious editor we as a community have" and is "one of the most knowledgeable and capable users in existence...whose positive contributions to said projects have been much greater than I could ever express here". This, I think, is called "damning with great praise." If I didn't have gobs of AGF all the way down to my bones, I would be a might suspicious. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Those who wish to judge for themselves whether the removal of the sysop and bureaucrat flags from Kalki at en.Wikiquote was indeed "harrassment", as characterized by DanielTom above, should read Kalki's Vote of Confidence from their archive. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I would NEVER have thought that the opinions of users should be discounted just because of their supposedly low edit count... Just so you know, even though I edit on several different projects, my main work is at Wikiquote, where I have nearly 2500 constructive edits (for what it's worth). I must leave now, so don't be offended if I don't have the time to respond to other silly attacks of this nature. Best wishes, DanielTom (talk) 22:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I actually went outside for a while but, as I waited a long time for the bus, I eventually realized what you are actually trying to imply (I missed it because of my naïveté), so I just came back to give you a heads-up. There is, in fact, no mystery here about what I know — I have read pretty much all the archived discussions at Wikiquote regarding this issue, and many others, so I think I am within my rights to express my opinion here about Kalki. NEVERTHELESS, if you are suggesting — "I would be a might suspicious" — that I am another sock puppet of Kalki , that is no accusation that you should make so lightly, and if you are to express it then I think you should go ahead and request that a Checkuser confirm it. This is not a joke. I should of course warn you that you must, however, be prepared to say that Kalki has been committing the grave crime of impersonating myself (Daniel Tomé) and, moreover, that he also knows Portuguese — which I am very doubtful that he does — so I would suggest that you actually take the time to analyse my contributions (such as the ones I made to Meta, where I have translated several pages to Portuguese) before you embarrass yourself further or, even worse, make such vicious accusations again. Thanks for your understanding, and I'm off again. ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a side discussion altogether, but while I have 2500 edits on Wikiquote, you have 11 edits there, so your argument is really quite self-defeating... ~ DanielTom (talk) 08:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock - This user is in my top rank of the untrustworthy here... a multiple sockmaster who abused our processes to push their viewpoints. Why invite a proven moral cheater back into the fold? Disturbing lack of common sense here, in my opinion. Jusdafax 00:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, again, my proposition is based on my experience with Kalki's continued positive contributions at Wikiquote. bd2412 T 03:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Could you please show us the evidence that he ever abused our processes to push their viewpoints? As far as I know, you won't be able to find any such evidence, but it would be very enlightening indeed if you could. Thanks. ~ DanielTom (talk) 09:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

P.S. For the record, it strikes me as very odd that you should accuse those who have actually worked the longest with Kalki of lack of common sense, since it is they of all people who actually know him better and understand how unjust it is to keep him blocked. Despite the historical misrepresentations, as it all happened years ago, and given that, in the meantime (working with just one account), Kalki has continued to be one of the most valuable editors on Wikiquote, what truly strikes me as "lack of common sense" is saying that after all this time he still shouldn't be allowed to even edit here. Sincerely yours, DanielTom (talk) 10:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Kalki has been blocked for a long time, it seems to me that wp:offer should apply in this case. As long as we get a commitment that Kalki will now stick to one account I see no reason not to unblock. ϢereSpielChequers 10:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. He's already agreed on his Talk page "to edit here under NO account other than the Kalki account". ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks for bringing up Misplaced Pages:Standard offer; the recommended "wait time" under that policy is six months; Kalki has remained silent for nearly two and a half years. As DanielTom indicates, Kalki has made a commitment to stick to one account. bd2412 T 14:05, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• No objection to unblocking. To the best of anyone's knowledge, Kalki has honored the commitment at Wikiquote to use only one account.

  I think some ongoing difficulties at Wikiquote to which BD2412 alludes are quite serious, such as "overwrought contributions to discussions" that I would call highly abusive ad hominem attacks; and though having "controlled the outcome of those discussions" is not really at issue, tendentiously editing with strident disregard for the outcome of those discussions is a real issue. However, these issues are unrelated to the reason for which Kalki was blocked at Misplaced Pages, and I suspect Kalki recognizes it would be imprudent to attempt to do at Misplaced Pages everything one can get away with at Wikiquote. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support Kalki is a very dedicated contributor to Wikiquote, and from what I read, deserves a second chance here. -- Mdd (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Request to lift restrictions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, I would like to request lifting of editing restrictions imposed on me 5 years ago in 2008 and removal from Misplaced Pages:Restrict . Since almost 5 years have passed I believe they can be lifted. Kind regards. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think most if not all of us would like to see a more compelling explanation of why the restrictions are no longer needed. You could start by explaining what you would do differently than before should the restrictions be lifted. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• I focus completely on writing and expanding articles and watching for vandalism and blanking. I think that after 5 years I am more serious and completely calm editor, I certainly see my role on Wiki as encyclopedian and disputes or conflicts aren't of interest to me, expanding articles and knowledge is.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support lifting per WP:Statute of limitations. (Somebody should write that, by the way). NE Ent 22:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Provisional support per WP:ROPE. Lift the restrictions for a month or so, and at the end of the month check back to make sure there's been no recidivism, and if there hasn't, extend the lifting indefinitely then. — PinkAmpers& 23:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• The clean period isn't the full five years since the restrictions (but is long enough for me...) due to ongoing blocking, but the unenviable block log of the previous account hasn't been maintained on this one. I'd support lifting per PA. Give then a chance. If it fails, it can always go back on. Peridon (talk) 23:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support lifting per WP:EHWHYTHEHECKNOT. Maybe that should redirect to NE Ent's link... --Jayron32 00:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• I've been involved in some content disputes in which MyMoloboaccount was also involved (from memory, we were on the same 'side'), and from memory his or her conduct was fine - including in the face of some provocations and bad-faith editing. As such, I'd support lifting these restrictions. WP:ROPE obviously applies, especially in regards to the Eastern Europe restriction though (as a housekeeping note, this restriction was never logged at WP:ARBEE). Nick-D (talk) 07:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose lifting. Nothing has changed since 2008, it's the same good ol' Molobo. He has been more careful to e.g. not exceed the allowed number of reverts a day but he continues to be confrontational and his edits are far away from NPOV. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 11:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Miacek, you'll need to provide some examples of battleground conduct before I am convinced of your stance. As of this moment, he has not been blocked at all since May 2010. Kurtis 12:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Very strong support — A review of his talk page indicates to me that Molobo is extremely approachable and provides thorough responses when confronted by people who disagree with him. As I noted above, he has not been blocked once since 2010. WP:ROPE doesn't even apply here; the Molobo of today is too mature to figuratively "hang" himself. The restrictions from 2008 are now completely irrelevant. Kurtis 12:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support removal; restrictions that hang around and hang around and frustrate quality editors into despair are a problem. Frankly, I'd sunset all sanctions after two years.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:10, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This editing restriction by Moreschi included 1RR restriction and civility. If someone was able to edit for more than three years without edit wars and incivility in this subject area (the block record of MyMoloboaccount is clean), they can do it without restriction. Having a restriction that is no longer needed strongly stigmatizes a contributor and reduces his participation. My very best wishes (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah surely, he engaged in edit warring in support of his rabid nationalist POV pushing just to the extent that he won't be blocked . Smart strategy! Some other recent examples of his bias, nationalist battleground mentality and anti-German mudslinging: , , (cf third party comments). Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 15:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Molobo's last edit to the first page you've linked to was all the way back in February 2011, and nothing he did there constitutes "edit-warring"; the subsequent references don't show me anything disruptive on his part. You may see him as "a well-known anti-German POV-pusher, who once again crossed the border from his usual hate-mongering, to try to portray Germans as vile dirty creatures" (per the third link you provided), and in turn, he might secretly consider you to be a staunch German nationalist with a bone to pick with him; you both have different perspectives on these issues. That doesn't make him a tendentious editor, and certainly doesn't give you the right to personally attack him for his views, especially when they're debateable to begin with. Kurtis 16:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I have the right to criticize (in your parlance: 'attack') people whose views are ethnonationalist or racist. No, he has not changed a bit from the time his partisan editing was laid bare in 2008. What I offered above contained critical comments from third parties. Also, to consider me as 'staunch German nationalist' would not even come to the mind of a Molobo, as I'm not German nor even have German ancestry. But this is not important here, anyway. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Estlandia/Miacek-In my edits I have documented many atrocities committed under the name of racism-an idea which I quite certainly oppose. Please don't make such accusations.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I realized that just shortly after I posted that comment, but it does seem as if you are very, very anti-Molobo. As a neutral third-party with no involvement in the dispute whatsoever up to this point, I don't see any of the issues that got him into trouble in the first place. Kurtis 00:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can see reverts here dated two years ago, but the party who made last revert (apparently per WP:BRD cycle, no problem) was Estlandia . I can't make any definitive analysis, but what actually happened was a significant expansion of this article by Molobo (which certainly looks to me as a serious improvement), followed by re-editing by Easlandia and another regular (also seems a good faith effort). This looks to me as an old stuff and hardly a serious problem. My very best wishes (talk) 20:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• As I searched Misplaced Pages for My very best wishes in connection with MyMoloboaccount, who have such astoundingly similar nicknames, I found as the top result the following Arbitration request for enforcement from as recently as August 2012, subjecting MyMoloboaccount, after which MyMoloboaccount hardly edited Misplaced Pages. Firstly, the request criticizes MyMoloboaccount for reverting among other things, something that MyMoloboaccount wants to do more frequently now. Secondly, the request says "you, VM, Molobo, My very best wishes, Vecrumba etc, who were found tag teaming". Do you have a history together?--walkee 23:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Walkee-I have not been subjected to any sanction in the above request as might be misunderstood from your comment, nor was I primary person discussed in that request(and neither am I mentioned in closing statement). Also while I want restrictions to be ended, I am not asking for this in order to engage in any widescale reverts, rest assured. As to the old case from 2009, I was not sanctioned there either.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Do you two have a history together?--walkee 23:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I do not recall such user(although I have edited for long time, so it might be that I have met him somewhere), unless it is a new name for some old account I have interacted in the past.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

No? Then I'd like an answer of My very best wishes.--walkee 23:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

For someone with less than 500 edits in the project, you are a very good investigator. Unfortunately, this is irrelevant to the request to lift editing restrictions. You should check if I had any editing overlap with Molobo. I think we edited only one article together and happened to have a disagreement (which should not surprise anyone given a contentious suject). But that's OK. Having and discussing disagreements is a part of normal process. My very best wishes (talk) 00:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying you didn't know the wikipedia search on the left hand side of this page (which probably billions of people have used)? While your name is nowhere to be found on the page User:Skäpperöd linked to, doing a simple Misplaced Pages search for "My very best wishes" in connection with "EEML" has this as the top: "I am especially surprised to read that because I wrote nothing about the user:Biophys, whose account was deleted, and the user page user:Hodja Nasreddin has been created instead of that. The Hodja Nasreddin's page now is a redirect to user:My very best wishes. BTW, when the user My very best wishes firstly joined the EE related discussion I genuinely believed that some new unbiased editor came, who is not burdened with old sympathies and antipathies, and whose fresh opinion should be listened. I realised that apparently I am dealing with old Biophys just by accident, and I am pretty sure some other users have been mislead too." Biophys (now My very best wishes) and Molobo (now MyMoloboaccount) are both listed as part of the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. The advice of My very best wishes/Biophys that I should only search for editing overlap of his new 2012 account with MyMoloboaccount is misleading. In conclusion, User:My very best wishes attack on everyone who opposes allowing User:MyMoloboaccount to revert freely on German articles is not a random coincidence. Also, the claim that they do not know each other appears most dishonest in the circumstances.--walkee 11:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, you "caught" me. This was never intended as a "fresh start account". The connection between accounts was officially linked, logged and available. I even linked it to my previous account , but then removed the link because everyone already knew. Of course I know Molobo as an editor, because as I said above, I had an editing overlap with him in one article from all accounts, and that was a dispute (based on the battleground logic, I suppose to vote "oppose" here, right?). Hence I appear mostly as an uninvolved contributor, especially during last two or three years. But whatever. I could not care less right now if I continue editing on-wiki. Bye. My very best wishes (talk) 13:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Easy enough to re-apply, if the issues resurface, so I think this can be considered spent. Guy (Help!) 16:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Jayron32's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:56, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support Sure. Kurtis explains vwery well all I could say. — ΛΧΣ 17:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose and request of removing him from all German-related articles. per Estlandia's reasoning. Lifting the restrictions only lets MyMoloboaccount be able to revert-war better. Administrators are barely interested in the range of the German-Polish articles, no matter how obscenely biased an article becomes. A good example is Nicolaus Copernicus recently thanks to a few advocates agreeing with each other to turn it more biased, an article which was kept in an absurdly biased state for days because few people care whose nationality is not involved. With MyMoloboaccount, who warmed himself up on the talk:page of this article just after requesting an end to his restrictions, you can take a guess why MyMoloboaccounts thinks he could need a few more reverts. MyMoloboaccount's contributions for the past 300 contributions or more appear to be anti-German, is clearly an advocate. Why can MyMoloboaccount edit at all? Who is willing to offer their heads to fall when one day people from the outside world realize the madness of allowing such advocates to roam here freely?--walkee 18:32, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Walkee-I am not anti-German. In fact part of my family is German itself, and I am member of German minority in Poland(although personally I identify more as a Polish person). It is true that my interests are regarding XIX century nationalism and XX century Nazism in German history, but it's just a speciality I am educated in and which is my hobby.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The samples given by Estonia already prove there's more to it and the other contributions I saw speak for themselves too. Accept a ban from all German-related articles and we can discuss lifting 1RR.--walkee 18:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

"you must really hate part of your family" in this context is an ethnically motivated personal attack. Talking in terms of pro- and anti- something (German, Polish, whatever) and about your families is a sure way to derail this request. My very best wishes (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Again nonsense, he brought his family as an argument so it would be him trying to derail it. But I'm removing it as you wish to avoid my remark letting the discussion about his editing nature be derailed. I've looked into more contributions of his and my opinion becomes more and more confirmed by every edit I see.--walkee 21:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support After five years? Yeah, I think you've earned it for sticking around this long.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose: The restriction was the condition for Molobo aka MyMoloboaccount to have his permaban lifted. Thereafter, Molobo was again blocked 1 year for socking, and while he was blocked continued to disrupt the project through EEML proxies (Molobo was (?) an EEML member). That his huge block log did not become even more huge thereafter was largely due to periods of inactivity.

   14:12, 16 October 2009 Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked, autoblock disabled) with an expiry time of indefinite (account possibly compromised, according to claims by User:MyMoloboaccount)
   00:25, 24 September 2009 Daniel (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (Conditional unblock: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AMolobo&diff=315814702&oldid=315755220)
   23:42, 31 May 2009 Avraham (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 year (Abusing multiple accounts: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Molobo)
   20:50, 23 December 2008 Moreschi (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours (civility supervision vio)
   19:33, 30 June 2008 Moreschi (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (Clemency is a virtue: user has agreed to stick to 1RR per week and civility supervision)
   13:35, 12 June 2008 Moreschi (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Back to revert-warring again, no understanding of the princinple that Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. The year-long block was a last chance, one you have failed to take)
   13:33, 12 June 2008 Moreschi (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (to reblock, too short)
   04:22, 12 June 2008 Khoikhoi (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 week (resumed edit warring (across multiple pages) immediately after three-day block, 3RR violation on Strategic bombing during World War II, no signs of effort to stop edit warring)
   02:39, 7 June 2008 Khoikhoi (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours (3RR violation at Battle of Grunwald; length due to previous block history)
   05:34, 24 June 2006 Dominic (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 year (Used up all your last chances: the edit warring and incivility continues, and shows no sign of ever stopping.)
   21:10, 22 April 2006 Dominic (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 06:16, 10 May 2006 (back to a month)
   06:51, 16 April 2006 Dominic (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (per consensus to extend this to indefinite; see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive89#Molobo_blocked_for_disruptive_edit_warring)
   06:51, 16 April 2006 Dominic (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (to extend)
   06:16, 10 April 2006 Dominic (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 month (egregious and disruptive wide-scale edit warring; just returned from a week-long block for same, 11th such block; see WP:AN/I)
   15:47, 29 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (3rr on German Empire)
   22:30, 23 March 2006 InShaneee (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (blocked in error, bad tip)
   22:14, 23 March 2006 InShaneee (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (3RR violation)
   15:19, 16 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 4 days (3RR on Potulice concentration camp)
   23:07, 7 March 2006 Splash (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 3 days (unending edit warring, no response to previous 3RR vios, just got another one)
   16:24, 3 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (Doubt)
   16:46, 2 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 48 hours (3RR evasion)
   16:46, 2 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (resetting - evasion)
   13:26, 2 March 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (3rr on Września)
   12:45, 21 February 2006 William M. Connolley (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (3rr on German Eastern Marches Society)
   12:45, 25 January 2006 Splash (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (resetting evasion of previous WP:3RR block via User:82.139.13.231)
   12:45, 25 January 2006 Splash (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (resetting 24h block after evasion)
   18:48, 24 January 2006 Splash (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (WP:3RR violation on Simon Dach)
   00:10, 16 November 2005 Piotrus (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (unfairly blocked, abuse of admin rights)
   23:19, 15 November 2005 Wiglaf (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (3RR)
   03:32, 31 October 2005 Piotrus (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (block without reason, abuse of admin powers)
   03:31, 31 October 2005 Piotrus (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (block without reason, abuse of admin powers)
   01:40, 31 October 2005 Wiglaf (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 6 hours (reading up on policies)
   00:57, 31 October 2005 Wiglaf (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (to have time to review Misplaced Pages policies)
   23:26, 18 October 2005 Piotrus (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (blocked for single small edit, this block is an abuse of admin rights)
   18:31, 18 October 2005 Chris 73 (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 48 hours (disrupting Misplaced Pages, repeated offender)
   13:17, 5 October 2005 Piotrus (talk | contribs) unblocked Molobo (talk | contribs) (1) disruption of Misplaced Pages is not a policy, and I see no disruption in his action, 2) users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict)
   04:58, 5 October 2005 Chris 73 (talk | contribs) blocked Molobo (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 24 hours (disruption of Misplaced Pages, see user talk)

   19:35, 17 December 2010 Deacon of Pndapetzim (talk | contribs) blocked MyMoloboaccount (talk | contribs) (autoblock disabled, cannot edit own talk page) with an expiry time of 1 second (previous blocklog as User:Molobo http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AMolobo)
   19:12, 27 December 2009 Rlevse (talk | contribs) blocked MyMoloboaccount (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 23:59, 31 May 2010 (reinstitute block of original Molobo acct)

<removed> <reverted>Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 20:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Skäpperöd (talk) 19

46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I've removed overly long (26k+!) attempt at re-fighting cases and grudges from long past. Please just include links if you must, don't repost entire ArbCom pages here.Volunteer Marek 20:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Probably also worth pointing out that Skäpperöd was canvassed here by walkee (a recently re-activated account with fewer than 500 edits who's never posted to AN/I before).Volunteer Marek 20:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Stop erasing other people's comments. You're not (yet) a sysop. Thanks. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 20:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Copy/pasting entire ArbCom case pages of dubious "evidence" (stuff submitted, and then rightfully ignored by ArbCom when it was first written) from four or five years ago is simply disruptive. Same goes for copy/pasting some four or five year old rant by an anonymous troll (more of this "evidence"). IF you really have to do it, then at least the proper way to do it is to LINK, not copy paste 26k of text onto AN.Volunteer Marek 21:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support_the end of restrictions. Molobo should be allowed to edit as long as he obeys the rules. He is a serious editor who should to be allowed to contribute to the project--Woogie10w (talk) 19:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support lifting of restrictions. Five years is a lifetime in Misplaced Pages. Poeticbent talk 21:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Now a real surprise here! Next, please :) Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 22:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Observation: this report has been almost dead for a long time now. But after finally evidence was posted to this page, suddenly three users associated with User:MyMoloboaccount arrived all part of the Eastern European mailing list arbitration: Woogie10w, Volunteer Marek, Poeticbent. All came in less than one hour! :-O --walkee 23:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Observation: Nine completely uninvolved editors, including several administrators have supported the proposal. The only people to object were Miacek and Skapperod - two users who've had numerous disagreements with MyMoloboaccount in the past and who've been hounding him for several years (with Miacek doing it even recently) - and one sketchy account, with less than 500 edits, and which has never posted to AN before, that was recently reactivated seemingly for the purpose of jumping into fights. And that account (i.e. Walkee) canvassed Skapperod to this page. And then Skapperod posted 26 thousand byte copy/paste of five year old ArbCom case "evidence" (and it's charitable to call it that - it was dismissed when first presented) here, disrupting the page. And then his buddy Miacek edit warred to keep it here. Gee.... maybe you think that me showing up here (notice I haven't even written "Support" - which I do, but I didn't want to even given an *impression* of bias) has something to do with Skapperod's disruption of this page by bringing up (yet again) his tired old screeds and rants from four, five or six years ago (I've lost count how many times he's reposted this junk. ArbCom didn't pay attention to it first time but he still insists on refighting all those old battles). If you bring someone up by name, then don't act surprised that they show up and respond. And drop the innocent act.Volunteer Marek 23:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support removing restrictions. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:59, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support Give this editor the necessary WP:ROPE. IRWolfie- (talk) 01:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support It's unfortunate that some have chosen to see this as yet another chance to rehash very old grievances. The proof is in future, not past, behavior. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 02:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support per WP:OFFER. If I count correctly, at this point the only three users opposing are two which have a long and bitter history of disagreeing with Molobo, and an editor whom I have never met before but whose familiarity with the topic and old, nearly forgotten fights raises some eyebrows (who's pulling the strings, hmmm?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Repost from VP (Tech)

"It seems to have gone now, but I had a load of 'nanny says' type info coming up when performing admin actions (i.e. deletions and blocks). There was so much, I had to scroll down to get to the blocking bit. What was it there for, and why's it gone again? (Note I am not begging for its return - just being nosy...)" As no-one there seems bothered, did any other admins get this, and does anyone know what was going on? Peridon (talk) 21:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Not clear what you mean. Did you find a ton of junk on top of the "You are about to delete..." and "You can use this form to block editing access" pages? Neither MediaWiki:Confirmdeletetext nor MediaWiki:Blockiptext has had substantial revisions lately. Nyttend (talk) 23:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There were lists of dos and dont's, lists of sensitive IPs (quite useful, really), and even the Action completed page had links to this, that and the other on it. I'm using Monoblock, in case that makes a difference (can't stand Vector - I even change prefs on any foreign Misplaced Pages I go on so I can find my way around). I'm trying to remember if it was only like this the one day, or for the day before as well. Surely I can't have been the only one getting it? Peridon (talk) 23:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Weird. I'm on Monobook for the same reason, and I don't remember getting anything unusual, even though (as my log shows) I performed a bunch of deletions on the 29th. We have the list of dos and donts and the list of sensitive IPs on the Blockiptext page, but it's no different from what I've seen for a long time. Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

If you want them back, set your interface language to "en". Not British English, not Canadian English. All of the "nanny says" kind of stuff only shows up in the plain English version of the site. There was a problem with selecting overrides of the user interface based on language settings. For a while, I was getting volumes of English on every action I took even though I keep my user interface set to Dutch. That change got undone because it really irritated the foreign language users. I think someone should undertake the effort to realign all the English interfaces, though.

The history can be found at https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46579 and WP:Village pump (technical)#Language preferences getting mishandled—Kww(talk) 23:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that is weird; I just changed my preferences to en-gb temporarily and was surprised to see how slim the pages are. I had no clue that we had different texts of this sort for different languages. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Ah. I'm set to Brit English (I think - haven't looked for a long time, and certainly hadn't been messing with preferences here). I can't remember when I last blocked an IP, so I won't remember what the screen looked like. Odd that I got it for a day or so, though. Probably one of those 'inexplicable occurrences' that I remember an Apple manual saying could happen... Peridon (talk) 00:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am on Brit English. Peridon (talk) 00:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

You were just being treated to the American English version of the site because your preference for British English was being ignored whenever there was a custom message.—Kww(talk) 00:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

For some reason, we get the blockiptext even when we go to block a registered user; see what I mean by going to Special:Block/Nyttend and Special:Block/64.85.214.145, although please don't hit the "Block" button on either one :-) Nyttend (talk) 00:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Can't see any difference from what I get on the registered one - and the IP doesn't have anything more. Slightly different tick boxes, but that's all. Peridon (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I just tested this, and I agree that it is weird. I don't particularly want to change my preferences to British English, but there are times when it would be nice not to see the screensful of advice, instructions, and admonitions that we U.S.-English admins are "treated" to. --Orlady (talk) 20:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

There's other differences in non-admin things - in the contribs lists we get top where others get current. More concise. Also, others get 'edit this page' where we just get 'edit' - I presume the others aren't expected to know which page they're editing without being told... <8-) Peridon (talk) 18:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

While I don't want the full set on en-GB, I can see a potential use for the IP info to be available as a drop-down or drop-out or whatever. Might it be useful for all sides (we don't seem to have heard from Canada yet) to have it all in a compressed form so it can be accessed when needed? Save on bandwidth for those not on broadband (still some around) or on dongles (like me on campsites, trains or other odd places)? If we do, can we have top instead of current, and just edit in the button? 'This page' is a little unnecessary. Peridon (talk) 18:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Where do people actually have discussions to agree on this stuff? Who decides that there's some earth-shaking reason to override "top" to "current" or "edit" to "edit this page"?—Kww(talk) 18:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought it was Village Pump (Tech), but I've not had much joy there with this one. As to why, perhaps it's that GB uses more concise English. American English is often more wordy in many ways (the Pentagon and the politicians are well known for it, but it goes much further. Just an opinion - don't ask for diffs... Peridon (talk) 18:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

The reason is that the default language of this wiki is US English. Whenever a page in the MediaWiki namespace is edited (for example, MediaWiki:Edit), the change only affects US English users (which is everyone except the select few who have changed their preferences to British English). The corresponding British page is MediaWiki:Edit/en-gb, which hasn't been modified (meaning that British users get the default message "Edit").

There are changes in the pipeline that would add a "fallback" mechanism, so that British English users would get the custom US English text, rather than just the default British text, if no specific British text has been added to the MediaWiki namespace. The change Peridon noticed was a failed attempt at implementing this, which was soon reverted. Hopefully that makes some sense... the bottom line is, don't use British English :) — This, that and the other (talk) 03:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

If the change involves us Brits getting the full how-to manual, I oppose it. I mean, some of the stuff already is a bit OTT. When you're an admin, do you really need to have it pointed out that clicking the Delete button will delete a page? You've already clicked one Delete button to get to the Delete screen, so clicking the second one is what you're there for. Cases involving drunkenness or little brothers (or possibly even drunken little brothers...) are a different matter, where no-one is going to read nanny's caution anyway. Put the instructions in as a collapsed section with a nice bright XP type colour so any admin who hasn't deleted anything for three years can refresh their memory, or make it a button controlled pop-up to minimise downloading. I rarely block IPs, so access to the sensitive list might be useful for me - and anyone else who can't memorise it. But we don't need this stuff in full every time we click delete or block. Perhaps the American English users will agree on this. (Still nothing from Canada - there are Canadian admins, aren't there?) Peridon (talk) 09:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Which gets back to my earlier question: where are these changes agreed upon? It seems that the people editing the interface tend towards verbosity, and I'm not sure where we are gaining consensus that this wordiness is a good thing. It appears to be more of a case of constant addition with no one ever pruning.—Kww(talk) 15:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:NFCR

This page has a chronic backlog, I have recently closed a number of requests, however I would prefer someone/admin with a little more experience to take a look and close 4 threads that have been open for over 6 months. (normal time is only 7 days):

• WP:NFCR#File:Yellow Pages Logo.png
• WP:NFCR#File:Elephants dream (DVD cover).jpg
• WP:NFCR#Paintings by Roy Lichtenstein
• WP:NFCR#File:The Persistence of Memory.jpg

Thanks, Werieth (talk) 23:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Buler....Buler.....anyone? Werieth (talk) 16:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Would you settle for a not an admin Ent with no experience? First one dealt with. NE Ent 17:38, 31 March 2013 (UTC) And last. NE Ent 23:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC) And another... but someone else gotta do the last one. NE Ent 23:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

What qualifies for personal attack?

calls me stubborn calls me a user with sectarian agenda calls me below common sense of illiterate Sunni --Kazemita1 (talk) 03:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

All of them. He wasn't recently warned, so I've given a {{uw-npa4im}} for all of them; one more such statement will be grounds for a block. Nyttend (talk) 03:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Kezemita you misquoted the last thing i supposedly called you. Read the context and it has nothing to do with you. I am merely stating that you have mispresented misyar as 1. Temporary marriage (clearly false) 2. As purely for sexual pleasure (clearly false since its permabent marriage. You want to keep adding this content even though it was already rehected by neutral editors on its talk page. So could you please tell me for once why you keep adding this?Suenahrme (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

If you think an editor is pursuing an agenda, repeatedly accusing them of doing so is not going to help. Assume good faith, and try get more people involved in the discussions by request a third opinion WP:3O or by posting a neutral message at a related wikiproject page (wikiprojects are listed at the top of an articles talk page). IRWolfie- (talk) 01:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

User Rights Management

I only just noticed the 'User rights management' below the "block" and "email" buttons in the toolbox on userpages and user talk pages. Was this not there before or should I start going to bed before 8am so I notice things more? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's been there at least since I got the bit in November. More early nights I think. Basalisk ⁄_berate 11:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Can't say I'd noticed it either. I suppose it saves a click going to the contribs list when modifying people. Peridon (talk) 12:20, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

It's new — I've always had trouble remembering how to get there, and I wouldn't have had to search for it if it were over there. I was planning to ask about it before long but hadn't gotten around to it yet. Nyttend (talk) 13:42, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Not a thing I've used often, but it was at the top of the contribs page - and still is... Peridon (talk) 15:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

It's been there since September 2008. Graham87 07:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

That's not what we mean. This is the box you see when you go to someone's contributions page. Bushranger and I are talking about the toolbox on the left side of the page; when you go to a userspace page, a "User rights management" link has appeared between "Email this user" and "Upload file". Nyttend (talk) 13:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, oops, I should learn to read. :-) I don't know how to find out when *that* link was added. Graham87 13:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Obviously any editors baffled by a simple wikilink lack the necessary competence to be entrusted with admin privileges. I've filed the appropriate requests at WP:BN -- ya'll should be seeing the links vanish shortly. NE Ent 14:32, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the link on the footer; I never noticed it, either :-) Nyttend (talk) 15:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Tiny issue

I found this, could someone delete the article and block the account for advertising? Thanks, Sepsis II (talk) 14:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Done - but why didn't you just tag it for speedy deletion? Peridon (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Audit Subcommittee vacancies: last call for applications

This is a reminder that the application period for the three non-arbitrator seats on the Audit Subcommittee will close at 23:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC), less than 36 hours from now.

The Audit Subcommittee ("AUSC") is comprised of six members and is tasked with investigations concerning the use of CheckUser and Oversight privileges on the English Misplaced Pages. The AUSC also monitors CheckUser and Oversight activity and use of the applicable tools. The current non-arbitrator members are Avraham, MBisanz, and Ponyo, whose terms were to expire on February 28 but were extended with their agreement until April 30 by the Committee.

Matters brought before the subcommittee may be time-sensitive and subcommittee members should be prepared and available to discuss cases promptly so they may be resolved in a timely manner. Sitting subcommittee members are expected to actively participate in AUSC proceedings and may be replaced should they become inactive. All subcommittee members are given both CheckUser and Oversight access but are expected to not make regular use of them unless needed. They are subject to the relevant local and global policies and guidelines concerning CheckUser and Oversight.

Please note that due to Wikimedia Foundation rules governing access to deleted material, only applications from administrators will be accepted.

If you think you may be suitably qualified, please email arbcom-en-clists.wikimedia.org to start the application procedure for an appointment ending 30 June 2014. Once again, the application period will close at 23:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC). Further information is also available here.

For the Arbitration Committee, T. Canens (talk) 14:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Discuss this

How to keep AfDs off the actual articles

Am I correct that templates should stay off the articles for April Fools AfDs? User:Snotbot contribs is restoring them. Ryan Vesey 01:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I think so. We could just shutoff the bot for the day.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 01:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

You can fix that by removing the template that says "remove this template when closing AfD" as the presence of that is what Snotbot uses as a basis. One can also add a template to the article to deny Snotbot, but the former is simpler and keeps matters completely out of mainspace.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Or, so people don't have to actually read this page to know how to make a joke, an admin can hit the blocky button for a day :) gwickwire_editing 01:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate's answer is better. Snotbot has amny other functions that we don't want to disrupt. Ryan Vesey 01:32, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

D'oh, I forgot that nowadays people use one bot account for many things. Any way for an admin to disable the one task (like a "on/off" page?)? gwickwire_editing 01:35, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I've dropped Scotty a note. 28bytes (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I have already taken the liberty of removing the template from the only joke AfD that still had one.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)