Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:33, 11 April 2013

Welcome!!! Pull up a chair, let's have a nice chat. I'm glad you called. I'll put the kettle on.
SilkTork

I will listen to you, especially when we disagree.

— Barack Obama

Will

Hi, I left a reply about Will for you here, in case you don't see it. Best, SlimVirgin 17:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

If I'm not watching a page, and you have a question for me, could you ask it here. It saves me having to dart about and keep an eye on extra pages. I have no objection to you copying my response to any venue of your choice if you feel that others may be interested. SilkTork 19:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'll post the question below that I asked there, but others have commented on that page too, so it would be helpful if you could post there. There's quite a bit of concern about this and how to move forward with it. SlimVirgin 19:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Silk, thank you for supplying this information. The problem I have when reading your posts is that they just don't describe Will in a way that would be recognized by Wikipedians who know him well. He just isn't like that, and the meme that's being created about him is making ordinary actions of his seem underhand and Machiavellian. If he has contacted individual committee members about his appeal, there's surely nothing wrong with that, given the lack of clarity around how he should proceed.

The question now is what he needs to do to have the ban lifted. In three statements, he has apologized to TG and to other affected editors, has said he won't make COI allegations against individuals in the future, and that he won't edit the way he did in the past. And the NRM topic ban will still be in place. What additional assurances does he need to offer? SlimVirgin 17:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

"If he has contacted individual committee members about his appeal, there's surely nothing wrong with that, given the lack of clarity around how he should proceed."

His appeal was declined and he was told he could appeal again in six months. Granted, in the time I have been on the Committee, some other people have not quite understood this, but to be frank, such instances have been limited, and have involved users where such confusion might be understood, such as being immature or having limited knowledge of English.

"just don't describe Will in a way that would be recognized by Wikipedians who know him well"

It may help to look at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rangerdude, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2, Teachings of Prem Rawat, and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal, and to also bear in mind that stuff happened behind the scenes. So, I accept what you say, that Will is reasoning and intelligent and has worked hard on the project but, sad to say, he seems to have fixed views on some issues which he wishes to assert in a manner that is not always in the spirit of rigorous balance. I also accept that he may not be aware of this himself, and may feel that what he is doing is right.

"What additional assurances does he need to offer?"

For me. To show understanding that what he did was to fight against another user and get him banned because he disagreed with that user's edits (which were within policy), and to indicate that he is aware of this and to make an effort to avoid doing it in future. I have mentioned this, and I think I have indicated that restrictions on COI or on topic areas are not getting at the heart of the problem, which is that (consciously or unconciously) WBB sometimes has a fixed view, which he believes is right, and in this case he went out to destroy "an opponent" rather than negotiate with them and examine their point of view. If he indicates that in the future he will be more open and less hostile, then I would feel more comfortable. Anyway, my objection is only part of the story. There are other Committee members, and also, next year I won't be part of the Committee, so I am not that important. But people are curious about this appeal, so I have been open to both Will and the community as to my position and why I have taken it. My position on the Committee is not an extreme one - there are views either side of mine. I think the bulk of the Committee are in a position, like myself, where we can be persuaded by an appropriate appeal, made at the appropriate time. SilkTork 21:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi again, I think it would not be reasonable to ask Will to wait another six months. He has been a productive editor for eight years or so, has been banned for a year, respected that ban, and has now asked to return. I would ask the committee to give the appeal its fullest attention now, with a public discussion and vote that involves the whole committee, not only BASC. Then at least Will will see who is requesting what. As things stand, he really has been left in the dark. I've made the same request to AGK here.

I think Will would not agree that he sought TG's ban because he disagreed with his edits. He sought the ban because he believed that TG had a serious COI at the TM articles. The committee can ask Will to change his behaviour – e.g. not to make that claim again, and indeed he has offered not to make COI allegations in future against any editor – but not his beliefs.

AGK has expressed concern that Will has a tendency to engage in email discussions about editors rather than sticking to on-wiki processes, and I believe you expressed this concern too on the other page. Would it help if this were addressed by restricting him from engaging in off-wiki discussion that could lead to sanctions against other editors? I have no idea whether he would agree, but if he did it would leave something like this:

• Will is restricted from making COI allegations against individual editors;
• he remains topic-banned from articles related to new religious movements;
• he must not engage in off-wiki discussion about other editors with a view to seeking sanctions or restrictions against them, or persuading them to disengage from Misplaced Pages; any such discussion must take place on-wiki within the framework of formal dispute resolution;
• he must agree to make efforts to be less rigid in his approach to other editors and points of view that he disagrees with.

Would these assurances be enough to persuade you to reconsider? SlimVirgin 04:49, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

WBB can reflect on all that has been said, and follow due process by appealing direct to ArbCom at the appropriate time. At that time the Committee as a body will consider what he has to say. I will be unlikely to respond further on this issue as I don't think it is helpful. SilkTork 07:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Moderator

Hello Silk Tork, If you are still willing to moderate discussion on the Tea Party Movement article, I have no objections and am happy to support you. I will comment on the article talk page as well. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

If it's all right with you, I was going to open a thread on TPM talk asking editors to comment on what they'd like to see improve between editors (civility, etc.) and what content they'd like to focus on first. Malke 2010 (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite comfortable with people taking the lead in discussions. I think that is helpful. I have just suggested a subpage for the discussions - this keeps things on one page, and makes it easier to keep track of what is going on. As regards discussing civility, that could open sores and create tension. I find it helps to eliminate personal comments completely. Discuss and work together on the content with no personal comments, and we achieve our aim. I have found that animosity can get left behind when people work together on a task, and do not make any personal comments. Not always. But sometimes a new respect emerges. If you folks agree on content, the tension should go. There may remain some lingering wounds. but that can't be helped. SilkTork 22:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Ancient libraries

Regarding the category you created: I am having a hard time separating a between ancient and non-ancient defunct libraries as antiquity is not a well bordered concept. I ask that you either define what ancient means in the context of this category or simply remove it and migrate the contents to Category:Defunct libraries. My preference is the latter option. Thanks, DGtal (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I understand your difficulty. However, ancient is not quite the same as defunct. Ancient means that something existed before the Middle Ages, while defunct means that something no longer exists. Something could be modern and defunct, or ancient but still in existence. The Great Pyramid of Giza is ancient, but still exists. I don't think there are any ancient libraries which still exist, but they are still, however, a distinct and separate group, and one which is studied and written about - , . I am pleased to say that I have visited the ancient library which is used as an illustration in both those links! SilkTork 21:23, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Happily I am well aware of the fact that somethink can be defunct but not ancient and vice versa. However, in the case of library history, there are (to the best of my knowledge) no examples of an ancient library surviving from antiquity until 2013. There is also another problem with defining antiquity from a global POV. The middle ages are a European era, not relevent to Asia, so a library in China or Iraq is considered ancient by some other criteria.

Also, editor mistakes are not much of a proof, but the author of Raglan Library categorized it ancient even though Raglan Castle isn't ancient. DGtal (talk) 13:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I think the category is appropriate and helpful. However, as it does trouble you, you could raise the question at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion to see if others agree with you. SilkTork 17:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I'll update you when I have time to open a discussion. DGtal (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Note:

In the interests of transparency and courtesy I am noting the following:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Will_Beback#A_reply_to_SilkTork

Perhaps you already have that watchlisted, and I haven't read through your talk page or contribs, but I thought it proper to inform you. — Ched :  ?  00:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I won't be going there to look at what has been said. Either Will accepts what he has done or he doesn't. Either way, the time to make another appeal is in six months. WBB should step back now, and allow the community to get on with the project. That would gain more respect from me, and indicate that he is prepared to put the project before himself. SilkTork 08:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

While I'm here

A while back during an Arb request, I took exception to one of your posts .. which you did strike and clarify. It has been on my mind that I think I owe you an apology. I think perhaps I was overly defensive in respect to your comment about my being "helpful". I honestly do have great respect for you, and would and will support you as an Arb. Perhaps because you and I have never interacted, my comments were unjustified. I think maybe there is both a cultural divide, and an unfamiliarity that led to some of the tensions that I've felt. I honestly do do my very best to be helpful, supportive, and advance the goals of this project, and I do take my efforts here very seriously. I should be more open to criticism, but it is difficult for me because I honestly do care so much. I actually do have a lot more I'd like to expand on, but I also realize that you have much to deal with, and that's just on wiki. In the end, I just wanted to tell you that I am sorry. My very best to you and yours. — Ched :  ?  00:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate that. SilkTork 08:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Progressive Utilization Theory

Hi SilkTork. It is not easy to communicate clearly, and it seems that you and I have had some sort of disconnect. I read your questions one way, but you intend them another way... and you seem to get annoyed when I don't grasp what you are saying or intending to say. You asked me if there is important information "suppressed" from the article, and I responded Yes. But you did not ask me what important information was suppressed. So I merely tried to explain why that is so in broad terms. I had already given you two examples of important information that was omitted - the five fundamental principles of PROUT and the four dimensions of economics that PROUT introduces. Similarly, PROUT's theory of history is oversimplified and hence misrepresented. Other than that, the only other aspect of PROUT that even gets some mention in the current article is the concept of "sadvipra leadership" (although that too is grossly misrepresented). There is virtually nothing in the article about PROUT's concept of property rights, women's rights, education, justice system, democracy, political decision-making, progress, and so on.

Regarding your second question, you asked me whether there is information on this topic that only Sarkar can provide. My reply was Yes. But then you seem to have treated your own question as irrelevant by asserting that "Misplaced Pages's articles provide a brief summary of what neutral, balanced, third party sources have written about a topic. We prefer third parties in order to remain objective and unbiased." SilkTork, I know the rationale. My position is that this rationale only applies in specific situations, but not in all situations. Indeed, I had already given you examples where exactly the opposite is the case - articles where the only way to remain objective and unbiased is to employ primary sources, articles where relying on secondary sources is only likely to reduce the level of objectivity and introduce bias. My guess is that there are many more articles like that on Misplaced Pages than you would expect.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the PROUT article is about 9 years old. It has a long history, and my involvement with the article is relatively recent. The current version of the article is perhaps the least informative and the most biased to appear over the last 9 years, at least in relation to the main topic of the article - the main topic for which I expect most readers would access the article.

Regarding myself, my involvement on Misplaced Pages may date back to 2010, but I only became active in November of 2012. Since then I constructed two articles, one new one and one old one (both articles well received on the portals that rated them). I also built a template for Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar that has since been mostly discarded. I have also done copy-editing on various unrelated articles (some DYKs) and contributed to discussions on the Talk page of unrelated articles. Recently, however, I got bogged down in endless debates on Sarkar-related AfDs (like the three-week AfD debate on the Prabhat Samgiita) article and the 2-3 months of wrangling about the PROUT article. Now, failing to find a sympathetic ear from you, I am more inclined to withdraw from Misplaced Pages than to resume my involvement. Anyway, thanks for the time that you spent on this matter, even if we never did seem to communicate effectively. --Abhidevananda (talk) 17:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)