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Please read this Hi, and welcome. Take a deep breath and relax your eyebrows. If you are about ready to explode it is suggested that you stop for a minute and relax, because that indeed may happen after sifting through these heated debates. This is a controversial topic, and has always been.

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Archives

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm| 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 (709 kb) Archive 2 (698 kb) Archive 3 (648 kb) Archive 4 (103 kb) Archive 5 (113 kb) Archive 6 (327 kb) Archive 7 (225 kb) Archive 8 (215 kb) Archive 9 (139 kb) Archive 10 (254 kb) Fadix Analysis (575 kb) A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

RfAr, I have this time decided to do it

I have decided to RfAr. This has gone much too far and my patience has limits. I will also finally use the evidences I have collected during the incidences involving Karabekir. I have tried to keep this silent with the issue of Sedat Laciner IP closely matching with one of the contributors of this talk page, but this has gone much too far. Here it will be the occasion to those that have attempted to assassinate my character for long to defend their positions and will be accepting whatever verdict. Fad (ix) 02:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

obviously that is the only way! I agree with you! This will absoulutely show the value of Misplaced Pages. but I also accouse you of personal attack. Stalking, smearing people, exposing names, going after personal data, searching for peoples name in the internet. I dont care if you are attacked by other people or disturbed by their pupets. your recent answers to me are absolutely personal directed to scare me off this page. and now I guess you are talking about lutherian or deepblue06 feel free to report me also. See if I am a pupet or not. from now on I hope you will stop flooding this place. I repeat this for Turkish participants also stop making personal comments. bring here only comments about the issiue. I believe that from now on fadix wont flood this page with off the question nonsense. FYI: my thesis is not about post stroke dep. it is only a part in it. stop hunting peoples name! and know that I warned sedat laciner via email that his name is exposed here.neurobio 08:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just read the upper comment. you getting death treaths from someone is a shame and I am just by your side on this issiue. that people are shame to wikipedia must be banned immediately. I dont know if i can be of help. dont worry it just nonsense but make sure that you have a firewall. i guess that is why you are so suspicious. unlike you i believe you and dont claim that you getting treaths is a lie. So if you are aware of such thinks happening when someone is too much in to the issiue why are you exposing names why are you asking me to declare my identity. stop declaring that i lied. That is some thing that you derived from your imagination. neurobio 08:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have every right to be suspicious, assume good faith doesn’t mean to stop reasonating. I have my doubts about you and for a reason. Lutherian too like other users too have come here claiming to be neutral users. That you have recycled the 500,000 Muslim killed by Armenians disqualified you. As for your thesis, you should check how many defend their thesis in a neuroscience departement in German Universities per year and what is the subject of their dissertation. When you have a databases it isen’t much difficult to retrieve what is in the thesis itself, but this is an entirly another matter. Like I said, I really don’t care if you are a Turk or not, the issue here is about honesty, from day one when you landed on this thread you have’t assumed good faith and randered my participation in this article as useless and as vandalism, when even the fanatic nationalist Turk who submitted this article for deletion has claimed liking the way I handle this article. It is those sort of things from your part and the way you have accused me even before I even accused you of anything that gives me the right to be skeptic about you. Of course there are various other little things, like your uses of the word ‘proof’ for the term ‘evidence’ and so on.

I have never hunted peoples as you suggest, afteral you suggested to copy your passport not I, I just wanted a confirmation and could care less of your name, a confirmation after all the socks in this page and they way this article has been abused. -Fadix

a finall call to those to bee Turks. Stop attacking people personally. Dont harrass people! you are ignorant of your own history just go and read. there is enough resourse to disprove the issiue here. you are discrediting your self and beeing a shame for your people!!!!!! Aptal. neurobio 08:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "disprove the issue"? The relevance of the term genocide? That Armenians were mass murdered on a grand scale by Ottoman Turks? That the scholarly and historical community overwhelmingly accepts that the Armenians of Anatolia/Ottoman Empire experiienced genocide at the hands of the CUP/Ottoman Turks? That the many hundreds of eyewitnesses of the time were somehow delusional and/or conspiring together to create a huge fabrication? That Armenians of today are perpetuating some sort of hoax? Just what is it that you claim you can prove or disprove here? Somehow I don't at all see it? --THOTH 14:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again, round and round in circles, uuuuugggggghhhhhhh Lutherian 17:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What is RfAr? --THOTH 14:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:RFARGeorgeslegloupier 15:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK - and what specifically is the issue - I mean besides constant vandalism and the fact that the current article is at least 1/2 unsupportable, poorly written, nearly incomprehensible and mostly not relevant or on point POV Turkish denialism? --THOTH 15:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The answer to your question is self explanatory. Your tone is hostile, and incivil.

That is the Armenian version of the story, one I do not share for one. Certainly the Turkish government, Dr. McCarthy, as well as others disagree as well. I do not know where to start objections...

• Firstly the article describes that any view questioning the validity of the armenian version as a "denial" ("Further information: Denial of Armenian genocide"). You are not required accept the pov questioning your beliefs, you are however required to respect other peoples beliefs.
• Article displays a map of "Major concentration camps", I believe the Turkish side refers these as relocation camps. The map explains "the relative number of armenians massacred". Pardon my scepticism but that doesnt sound neutral to me given the body count is a very contraversial matter among historians investigating the incident.
• Article gives more coverage to trivia such as "P.L.U.C.K. (Politically Lying, Unholy, Cowardly Killers)" and orhan pamuk (who is not a historian and instead a novelist at least according to this article) more than the opposing pov.
• In a form of 'art', there is even an armenian propoganda poster on the article.
• The way turks refer to the incident aka the official name (armenian relocation) is not even in the lead.
• Among all this it is clear this article is perfectly neutral since it isnt tagged with {{POV}}...

Continiously "waging war" on the article is definately not the right way and I do not believe it will end unless an arbitration hearing takes place over this.

--Cat out 15:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with the POV tag. The article is not neutral as can be seen by comparing it with Holocaust and Porajmos. Deniers don't get a platform there, so why here ? Given undue weight to minority opinions represents POV. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What minority? Are you referring to the 70million+ who reject this absurd and racially motivated accusation? And who are you to judge what neutral is? You have shown yourself to be a fervant supporter of the Armenian cause and their ridiculous genocide claims. Enough is enough, the plain truth is that this a one huge smear campaign directed against Turks and it has to stop because I can assure you that it will go NO WHERE, not in a zillion years! Lutherian 17:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The minority, so small that we could name them all on a postage stamp, of Western scholars who accept the position you wish to see given prominence. I do not care what the supposed majority Turkish or Armenian beliefs are, and I have no interest in hearing your unsupported opinion. The only opinions which matter are offered in reliable sources, of which you can find many on Amazon and Google Books. Until you can find rather many more people who are willing to advance the argument you want included — the present total appears to be two, Lewy and McCarthy — it will be an insignificant minority opinion, on a par with the extreme edges of functionalism in the study of the Holocaust, and does not merit inclusion. Repeating your point of view won't magically produce academic support for it. Probably rather the opposite, just as Serdar Argic did more to publicise the Armenian Genocide than any Armenian. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I hope you're not believing in what you're saying: Why don't you try to name a few distinguished historians supporting Armenian claims at the caliber of Bernard Lewis of Princeton, J.C. Hurewitz of Columbia University, Gilles Veinstein of College de France, Halil Inalcik of University of Chicago and alike? Halil Inalcik was also chosen to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in History which none of your ‘scholars’ could ever achieve in their lifetime, even if we combine their output. Because propoganda does not get you anywhere in academia. This list is not exhaustive by any means, unlike some others I just don’t like writing pages long messages.

Seriously, why don't you try to list a couple of ‘scholars’ of Armenian thesis who are affiliated with prestigious universities such as above in relevant fields or who have publications in prestigious journals with high impact factor, or who have books published by prestigious publishers (not by Armenian lobby funded mickey-mouse publishers). Any of the scholars above has more scholarship than all of your scholars combined. I have nothing to say, if you’re saying this as a part of the propaganda, but if you’re believing in it, then I suggest doing some more research before forming an opinion. Deepblue06 18:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's how things work. I may not be a historian, but I have read books on historiography. To show a genuine controversy is fairly easy. You look in a book by the likes of Jay Winter (CUP), Martin Gilbert (Weidenfeld), or Omer Bartov (OUP), and see what they have to say. If they says "X says one thing and Y says another", there is a controversy. If Bartov blames the Germans and nobody does, we chalk that up to axe-grinding. If, on the other hand, they all ignore Y, we can be pretty sure there's no controversy. Claiming Veinstein supports the deniers' position is, as anyone who cares to read what Vidal-Naquet had to say, a slur on a respectable historian. Veinstein's paper appeared in a collection which affirmed the genocide, as Veinstein knew it would. It was two pages long. To divorce material of its context is another trick from the holocaust denier arsenal. I again recommend WP:V and WP:RS. We don't do pick and mix citations. If Veinstein's work must be included, perhaps you can explain why his co-authors, who contributed much longer articles in the same issue called Génocide : du bon usage d'un mot and Il s'agit bien d'un génocide !, among others, should be ignored. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't surprised. You could not dare to name anybody. I would not get into criticizing your circular logic and you're plain wrong on Gilles Veinstein's position. This is simple fact and I ask unbiased readers to make a simple google search to see the truth themselves. I believe that what I've above is sufficient for any unbiased reader, and there's no point discussing this issue with you any further. By the way, I suggest stop using denial verbiage: Denying lies is a virtue. Deepblue06 19:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned Winter, Gilbert and Bartov, three prominent historians of the C20th who have written recently and characterised the subject as genocide. Listing all historians who have done so would be tedious in the extreme. Winter appeared particularly relevant as the editor of a work focussed on the Armenian genocide and as a noted specialist on the 1914-1918 war. Interested readers can click the link I supplied and see what Vidal-Naquet said. The context of Veinstein's work can be seen here. Histoire, as any editor familiar with the magazine can tell you, is written for a popular audience. Veinstein's thesis, which bears little resemblance to the material you and User:Lutherian push here, took up less than 10% of the coverage. The other 90% was the orthodox case. Strangely enough, returning to my original point, this is not the balance seen here. Unbalanced coverage is POV. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Isnt it strange that if there was indeed irrefutable proof that genocide was committed that 90 years after the events it is still not accepted by Turkey and there are still MANY countries (including the biggies Isreal and the US) that dont recognize it as such. And please dont give me the half baked excuses that they dont recognize it for strategic reasons (the cold war has been over for a while already). And let me make one thing clear here, as long as Armenians and their sympathizers including your so called scholars who support the genocide thesis continue to minimize the overwhelming evidence of massacres committed against moselms, this debate is as good as dead in the water! I dont care if most of the christian world including the pope supports the thesis, something tells me that they have a hidden agenda just like the chrisitian powers did during the downfall of the Ottoman empire. Lutherian 18:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What can be termed “hostile and incivil ” in this case are the attempts of genocide denialists, historical revisionist and obviously insufficiently educated commentators and fiction writers such as yourself and others here to obscure and rewrite history in an attempt to shield historical criminals of some of the most serious crimes against humanity that have ever occurred in history. In doing so you perpetuate the genocide of an innocent population of Armenians whose survivors suffer through the mental anguish not only of the loss of their relatives and kin and the destruction of their nation – but by the insult and defamation caused by the continued active and ugly denial of the truth of what occurred. This is not – as you attempt to portray it – the “Armenian version of the story” – it is a depiction of the history as was documented and corroborated by numerous eyewitnesses and is accepted by the vast majority of scholars, historians, Encyclopedic and history book entries – and it in fact is the truth – as known at the time it occurred and as is known today. It is not the “Armenian version” – your contention that it is such is completely false. It is the denial of the true history that is a POV version. No one is required to “respect” or acknowledge the denial of the Holocaust except in acknowledging what it is – an ugly twisting of the truth to support a particular racist and hateful viewpoint – and there is absolutely no difference between Holocaust denial and denial of the Armenian Genocide accept for the fact that Armenian Genocide denial is a view that is actively officially held by and sponsored by a nation state. Otherwise each every and all aspects of these denials are the same! If eyewitnesses described camps as concentration camps – by exact word or by description of the activities held in and around them – or more appropriately “death camps” for some – then it matters not if the Turkish government has chosen to call them “way stations” or “beach front villas”. While we may never be able to know the exact number of Armenians killed or murdered – as we will never know the exact numbers of Jews (and this has been disputed in the very same manner and for the very same reasons as the Turkish deniers dispute the Armenian figures) etc – this does not invalidate the fact that certain figures are (and have always been) accepted as reasonable approximations and that the resulting disparity of Armenian population within Anatolia before and after this time is relatively unchanged in its relationship. Thus disputing the exact numbers in know way obviates the genocide claim and again there is no real controversy of any bearing as what the Turkish Government or their paid/sponsored/held hostage supporters might claim has no validity as the position itself (that genocide did not happen or that no significant numbers of Armenians beyond the norm for the time died and/or that there was no specific campaign against them…etc) is already discredited and obviously spurious and in fact there is no valid dispute of the relative loss of the Armenian population, how and why it occurred and that it was with certainly and absolutely a state sponsored genocide. As for genocide “art” or what-have-you…this might be the only place were we even remotely agree. I think it is relevant and should be referenced – however considering the article lacks all of the sufficient descriptive elements of the how, why, where, when and by who and to who information that I think is relevant and necessary – I would argue that there is undue emphasis on clearly secondary issues as “art” etc. However, Pamuk’s case IMO – needs to be expanded on…not his specific case – but the systematic campaign of genocide denial by the Turkish government – through laws and prosecutions, destruction of cultural monuments, changing of place names and even names of plants and animals, and of course active international sponsorship of genocide denial – through paid academic sponsorship and restrictions on independence of researchers positions, to pressures upon and threats against governments, corporations and individuals. --THOTH 17:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

it is so clear! i guess you mistake genocide with massacre. Genoicide is a term in international law. An event can only be called a genocide after it has been approved by an international court. There is no such case in this matter. Also many international expers of the event as well as many other historians and researchers object to the term. Some say it was a warfare among populations and some say yes many armenians were killed but the event is not a genocide. as you see Deiners have chairs in respected universities. So this article can only be named as Armenian Genocide Claim and there will of course be all sides of the story not only the armenian side. By the way there is a personal attact in the Call for ultimate solution section. maybe you want to look at that and Thoth that may be because you dont read. Please read or at least go to a Turkish web sites and see what they say. Or just take a look at the JPG that i have edited above. neurobio 16:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I am intimatly familiar with all of the various Turkish positions and perspectives concerning this issue - legitimate (factually or concerning the perspective itself - current and historical) or otherwise (most of the denialist garbage such as is posted in these talk pages and as it appears in the article). Your claim that use of "genocide" to describe this or any other historical event as requiring some international court to pass a verdict is unsupportable and faulty (as there is a difference between historical accepted realities and specific legal rulings regarding events that have occured in the past for whom prospective plantiffs and or perpetrators may no longer be either living or clearly discernable). However I should note (and it has been noted on these talk pages many times before) that in 2003 an independent and impartial legal body - the International Court of Transitional Justice (ICTJ) has specifically ruled on the legal applicability of the term "genocide" as applies to the Armenian Genocide. The study of this issue was done at the behest of the Turkish and Armenian members of the Turkish - Armenian Reconcillation Commmision (TARC) specifically for the purpose of putting to rest issues regarding the applicability of the term genocide regarding this subject. The ICTJ examined the accepted legal elements of the United Nations definition of genocide and applied them against the known/undisputed facts regarding the Armenian case. The ICTJ ruled that "the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them." So your strident objections and (rather laughable and pathetic) suggestions (that this be termed "genocide claim") in this case are of no bearing or validity on this issue. Furthermore, I suggest that you do your homework before reaching such spurious conclusions and attempting to pass them on to us as worthy of serious consideration.--THOTH 17:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's not pull things out of context. The ICJT report begins with the following statements

This memorandum is a legal, not a factual or historical, analysis. In deriving the conclusions contained in this memorandum we have attempted to state explicitly whether our conclusion relies on any factual assumptions. Although we have reviewed various accounts of the relevant facts, we have not undertaken any independent factual investigation.

We emphasize further that this memorandum addresses solely the applicability of the Genocide Convention to the Events. It does not purport to address the applicability to the Events of, or the rights or responsibilities of concerned individuals or entities under, any other rubric of international law or the laws of any nation.

Implying ICTJ report (which has no legal binding) could replace an international court verdict at the very least is misleading. Deepblue06 18:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The claim in the comment I was addressing was validity of use of the term genocide in the Armenian case in terms of International Law. I think the ICTJ report addresses this rather directly. ANd that fact that it was commissioned to do such by a Joint Armenian - Turkish commision adds further validity to its findings.--THOTH 18:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I agree with you partially. Here're my reservations: (i) TARC is not an official commission, I should remind that Turkish PM offered to form an official commision, but this offer was rejected by the Armenian President (ii) ICTJ is self-declared body, they aren’t given authority by any state or any International organization (iii) According to the UN convention, genocide has 4 elements, one of them being, “perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group” and the ICTJ report is not quite strong on this point to their admission, which is quite clear when the report is read in full. You partially quoted ICTJ's statement, full quotation includes “Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established (except the intent, the fourth element), the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide”. Note: The italic part is added by me. Deepblue06 19:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Actual wording is as follows (my bolds): D. Conclusion

The crucial issue of genocidal intent is contested, and this legal

memorandum is not intended to definitively resolve particular factual

disputes. Nonetheless, we believe that the most reasonable conclusion

to draw from the various accounts referred to above of the Events is

that, notwithstanding the efforts of large numbers of "righteous

Turks" who intervened on behalf of the Armenians, at least some of the

perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions

would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of

eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and,

therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other

three elements identified above have been definitively

established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to

include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the

Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians,

journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so

describe them.--THOTH 19:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're not saying different things. I qouted the last sentence, that's their conclusion. Your previous qoute was missing an important preface (I'm not suggesting that this was intentional) and I added it, which shows that their report was not quite strong on one crucial element of the genocide, the intent. However, I'll not dispute that they concluded that genocide term can be applied to the Armenian events (though using a somewhat weak language "can thus be said to include"). In any event, my reservations stated above stand: In summary the ICTJ report cannot replace an international court verdict, which is missing for this issue. Deepblue06 20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

and I would suggest that you stop this horrible smear campaign directed against Turks. I mean look at the history: first you stab us in the back, then you send your criminals to assassinate all the Ottoman govt leaders of the time, then, as if the justice of your imagination had not been served, you form a terrorist organization and murder scores of totally innocent Turkish diplomats and family members. Now you come up with this totally absurd genocide smear campaign and you expect us to just smile and agree with you? Look at the state of Armenia today, its barely on surviving on life support and even that you blame on us. Just mind your own business and leave us alone already, man! Lutherian 17:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see any relevance to the article or even the general issue of the Armenian genocide in your above diatribe Lutherian. However I am thinking that some Nazi might substitute German for Turk and be telling Jews that they too should quit it already...and my what a bad thing some Jews have done seeking out and killing or kidnapping "inoccent" German expats who were living peacably in Argentina and what not. Armenian Genocide is fact. I have no racial animosity toward Turks - nor do - or would Armenians if Turks would not be so aggressive in the shielding of the perpetrators of the murders of their kin - including making such spurious and unsupportable claims and justifications for murdering of innocents as "you stabbed us in the back"...please. Grow up. --THOTH 17:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Please remain civil and stop making personal attacks by telling me to grow up. And please dont try to mix the holocaust with the Armenian issue, the majority of Jews do NOT consider the events of 1915-16 as genocide and I know many who are highly irritated by militant Armenian fanatics that are trying to compare the two events to gain their sympathy! Lutherian 18:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

SOrry - but I know otherwise - most Jews who know of the Armenian Genocide understand it to be such and understand - at least superficially - its similarities to the Holocaust. You are saying stupid things such as "mind your own business" - of course I will tell you to grow up. Additionally you are here all but advertising your intention to continually vandalise this page if it is not written to your liking. IMO you have no place in Misplaced Pages (let alone being involved in this article) nor do you belong in any civil conversation concerning this issue considering the general nature of your comments to date. --THOTH 18:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

You are telling me to grow up and insinuating that I am stupid because my remarks are stupid and then you say that I dont belong in any civil conversation? Seems like you are contradicting yourself, ure a funny guy and certainly not someone to be taken seriously, LOL Lutherian 18:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

We’ve been there already. Misplaced Pages is not a law institute, what you propose and say has not happened or had happened are positions. It is called Armenian genocide by most, according to name conventions this is the word to be used. It also doesn’t present it as an ultimate truth. Comming to the scholars, here I disagree completly, most who deny the Armenian genocide are specialist of Ottoman or Turkish history, true many are from reputable universities, but Ottomanologist research Ottoman materials which are the property of the Turkish republic. Giving such a weight to a category of researcher isen’t at all NPOV, do you see me referring to Armenologists? Because the equivalent of Turkologists or Ottomanologists are Armenologists. And like it or not, many of the scholars who have denied the Armenian genocide are controversial, and this, I am not the one making it up. Lewy for instances denies three genocides and the American war crimes in Vietnam, and who has reffered to a report that no one beside him has seen or heard about and that the existance of such a report can not be confirmed by anyone else. He also slandered an American historian researching the war crimes against American Indians the way he did with Dadrian. Those controversies about him are known among those in the discipline. Contriversies ought to be written, but when I have pointed to those, you have accused me of accusing scholars to be pied. What is not POV, is the list of grants from the list which I have provided, what is POV is your insinuations against me of accusing scholars of being pied, and you did this even before I have accused you of anything.

Also, as I have referred, most in the list are affiliated to Turkish studies, which is financed by the Turkish government, how many petitions do you you see presented as evidence of the genocide which the signaturies are mostly from Armenian studies? Also, several on the list don’t deny the Armenian genocide. Even Lowry admitted once he left, under pressure, the Chair of Ottoman history founded and funded by Turkey. You know what he admitted? He admitted that he came accross a document from Ottoman archives that strongly suggest that Ottoman autorities were implied in the massacres.

I recommand you the book of Martin Gilbert about World War I, it is one of the best coverage of the war ever written in my opinion and a very reputable book, you should pay a look at the sections covering the Armenian massacres. That such reputable historians as Martin Gilbert who was knighted, sign petitions about the undeniable nature of the Armenian genocide, makes it clear indeed that there is a clear disproportion between those who recognize the Armenian genocide and those who deny it in the academia. That it is the second most studied genocide makes it clear that the term ‘Armenian Genocide’ is not only very notable but is appopriate. And don’t forget that the article isen’t presenting it as having happened, it simply present the positions.

The legat stuff, it has been largely debated here, the Nuremberg happened before the Genocide Convention of 1948. The Turkish martial Court is its equivalent and even though it has liberated many murderers who were later recruted by the Kemalist nationalist forces, the leaders of the Ittihadist party like Sakir who lead the special organization were condemned to death. The UN report that was dissolved by Turkey in the 80s, in its list (equivalent to Jurisprudence) indeed includes the Armenian genocide and the UN has no any other such report. There is as well the UN 1948 report about the Armenian massacres. And not to forget the differences instances of international bodies which concluded of the applicability of the term. -Fadix

It doesnt matter even if it was true (which its not) because Armenians have approached the whole issue with bad faith. You cannot use violence to force your perception of the truth to others. History shows us that this strategy is bound to fail. Its a question of credibility and trust and its soarly missing in the Armenian/sympethizer camp. Lutherian 17:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

In no way can you accuse Armenian of perpetuationg undue violence against Turks for genocide recognition. To generalize and blame all Armenian for ASALA and such violence against Turks would be like calling all Turks as assasins of catholics for Mehmet Acgas attempt on the life of the Pope....or for deciding to relocate from Anatolia (and murder as many as you could) Armenians from Anatolia just because a few Armenian revolutionaries were advocating an Armenain state...might have iniated some violence against some Turks at some point in the past, and might have certainly been appealing for outside powers to alleviate Armenian suffering and protect Armenians from state sponsored massacres - etc - yeah - in your mind would this be sufficient justification to generalize and consider all Armenians as traitors - worthy of death? --THOTH 17:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Please dont minimize the murder of Turks as an isolated case carried out by a few deranged fanatics because thats extremely denigrating. These cold blooded murders were orchestrated by and got the blessing of the highest ranks. It is even said that former ASALA members are part of today's Armenian government. Have you read Sam Weems book? Its very thought provoking! Lutherian 18:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't give credit for anything written by "Weems" as even worthy to wipe my ass with. Please. And once again - ASALA and anything concerning the current government of Armenia are post-genocide issues that should be mentioned only in their proper historical context. If an Armenian were to blow up Ankara tomorrow it would change nothing concerning the history and factuality of the Armenian genocide itself. As for Turks killed by Dashanks or such in the 19th century. Yes some of this occured - in a very isolated sense and certainly this was much less common then the various murders of innocent Armenians by marrauding Kurdish chieftans and bandits (Ottoman State sponsored or just independent) which occured prior to, during and after this time. The isolated killing of relatively small numbers of Turks by a few fringe Armenian revolutionaries or what have you - while certainly sad and unfortunate - and obviously must upsetting and sorrowfu for those affected and their families (and of course I sympathyse with the plight of all innocents in this regard) - but it can in no way be compared to the systematic state-sponsored genocidal campaign that killed 1.5 million innocent Armenians...nor can the existance of isolated Armenain revolutionaries or their activities in the 19th century (as the Dashnakls had essentially joined with/collaborated the CUP (against the Sultan) during the 1910s and had in fact (as a group) ceased revolutionary violence by the time of the Genocide (and since the CUP rvolution of 1912) - this is documented by German and other sources. So the claim that Armenians "stabbed Turkey in the back" or caused significant widespread violence against Turks prior to 1915 is an entirely spurious and unsupportable claim...unless of course you are of the opinion that Pamuk or similar has stabbed Turks in the back...thus similar reasoning and perhaps we need to better define the word and consider the mindset of those making such claims. --THOTH 18:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Please stop using foul language and have some respect for the memory of Weems. Again you are minimizing the suffering of many moselms in the hands of Armenian criminals (I almost fogot the despicable French Armenian Legion which was a prelude to the Nazi Armenian Legion). As for Pamuk, I dont at all believe he stabbed the Turks, he was making a point on freedom of speech in Turkey, he just used the Armenian massacres as an example! Lutherian 18:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This argument summarised -

Armenian: No argument, all western scholars agree

Turk: No, they do not. There are several Western Ottoman Historians who do not. Some of them considered by their peers to be the preeminent historians in their field. (substantiated by a few example names and positions, all very distinguished)

Armenian: No, those people are all liars and holocaust deniers. The Armenian version is a fact and all Western scholars agree.

Repeat ad infinium.

Turkish intent to exterminate Armenians was well known at the time and is clearly established by direct and indirect evidence

For instance (my bold):

exerpt:

Telegram Received.

From Constantinople Dated July 16, 1915 Recd. July 20, 8:10 AM.

Secretary of State, Washington.

858, July 16, 1 p.m. Have you received my 841? Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion.

AMERICAN AMBASSADOR , Constantinople

--THOTH 20:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is also well documented that Ambassador Morgenthau had not left Istanbul and relied on his Armenian assistants and his intentions to pull the US into the war is also well documented and this was one example of his attempts.

Ambassador Henry Morgenthau's 1918 book, Ambassador's Morgenthau's Story is often used for supporting genocide claims. It brims with assertions that incriminate the Ottoman Turks in genocide. Professor Lowry of Princeton, however, convincingly demonstrates in his monograph, "The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story," that his book is more propaganda, invention, exaggeration, and hyperbole than a reliable portrait of motivations and events. Now, I wait for character assasinations on Professor Lowry. Deepblue06 20:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Professor Lowy's assertions are quite the contrary, their unconvincing. To say that he relied on Armenian assistants, and to echo Turkish claims, that his book was ghost-written by Armenians is just another fabrication propagated by the Turkish government to discredit his claims. Morgenthau spoke numerous times with Ittihad leaders who boasted their treatment of the Armenians and had many missionaries come to his office and cry with tears on what they had seen. The fact that his ability to send telegraphs to the other consulates in Turkey and to the State Department was rendered useless itself is more proof of how the CUP attempted to censor the events. If this was a normal relocation procedure, why all the censorship? It doesn't make any sense and that Lowy abysmal attempt to discredit Morgenthau and attempt to discredit Robert Jay Lifton's book "The Nazi Doctors" clearly shows that Lowy is a disgraced stooge working for the Turkish government. His adulterated book demonstrates little nexts to nothing.

You speak about character assassination and practically every witness we offer, whether they be be Armenian, German, Swedish, Austro-Hungarian, French or American, you effortlessly shoot down as liars and individuals who had alterior motives. --MarshallBagramyan 21:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Morganthau based his views on both his direct interaction and conversations with Talat and other CUP officials (corraborated by the accounts of other ambassadors - such asthe German and Austrian ambassadors - in their reports - as well as based upon the numerous reports comming to him from American Consuls located directly where the events of the genocide were taking place. All of these observations are corraborated by other sources (again including German sources affiliated with the ottoman Army and railroad as well as from private german sources such as teachers, railroad workers and missionaries. That the Ottomans imposed very severe censorship of correspondences and that they were trying to hide the worst of these activities - yet we have hundreds upon hundreds of gruesome reports that all paint the same picture of government sponsored extreme brutality against the Armenians is quite telling. The resulting picture inarguably supports the contention of ethnic cleansin and genocide - in its worst possible forms. There can be no disputing these corraborated observations and the conclusions that result. --THOTH 23:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

exerpts from Bryce report (my bolds):

British Government Report on the Armenian Massacres of April-December 1915 by Lord Bryce

I am grieved to say that such information as has reached me from several quarters goes to show that the number of those who have perished in Armenia is very large. It has been estimated at the figure of 800,000.

Though hoping that figure to be beyond the mark, I cannot venture to pronounce it incredible, for there has been an unparalleled destruction of life all over the country from the frontiers of Persia to the Sea of Marmora, only a very few of the cities of the Aegean coast having escaped.

This is so, because the proceedings taken have been so carefully premeditated and systematically carried out, with a ruthless efficiency previously unknown among the Turks. The massacres are the result of a policy which, as far as can be ascertained, has been entertained for some considerable time by the gang of unscrupulous adventurers in possession of the Government of the Turkish Empire. They hesitated to put it in practice until they thought the favourable moment had come, and that moment seems to have arrived about the month of April, 1915. That was the time when these orders were issued, orders which came down in every case from Constantinople, and which the officials found themselves obliged to carry out on pain of dismissal.

There was no Moslem passion against the Armenian Christians. All was done by the will of the Government, and done not from any religious fanaticism, but simply be cause they wished, for reasons purely political, to get rid of a non-Moslem element which impaired the homogeneity of the Empire, and constituted an element that might not always submit to oppression.

There is nothing in the precepts of Islam which justifies the slaughter which has been perpetrated. I am told on good authority that high Moslem religious authorities condemned the massacres ordered by Abdul Hamid, and these are far more atrocious. In some cases the governors, being pious and humane men, refused to execute the orders that had reached them, and endeavoured to give what protection they could to the unfortunate Armenians. In two cases I have heard of the governors being immediately dismissed for refusing to obey the orders. Others more pliant were substituted, and the massacres were carried out.

As I have said, the procedure was exceedingly systematic. The whole Armenian population of each town or village was cleared out, by a house-to-house search. Every inmate was driven into the street. Some of the men were thrown into prison, where they were put to death, sometimes with torture; the rest of the men, with the women and children, were marched out of the town. When they had got some little distance they were separated, the men being taken to some place among the hills, where the soldiers, or the Kurdish tribes who were called in to help in the work of slaughter, dispatched them by shooting or bayoneting.

The women and children and old men were sent off under convoy of the lowest kinds of soldiers - many of them just drawn from gaols - to their distant destination, which was sometimes one of the unhealthy districts in the centre of Asia Minor, but more frequently the large desert in the province of Der el Zor, which lies east of Aleppo, in the direction of the Euphrates. They were driven along by the soldiers day after day, all on foot, beaten or left behind to perish if they could not keep up with the caravan; many fell by the way, and many died of hunger.

No provisions were given them by the Turkish Government, and they had already been robbed of everything they possessed. Not a few of the women were stripped naked and made to travel in that condition beneath a burning sun. Some of the mothers went mad and threw away their children, being unable to carry them further. The caravan route was marked by a line of corpses, and comparatively few seem to have arrived at the destinations which had been prescribed for them - chosen, no doubt, because return was impossible and because there was little prospect that any would survive their hardships. I have had circumstantial accounts of these deportations which bear internal evidence of being veracious, and I was told by an American friend who has lately returned from Constantinople that he had heard accounts at Constantinople confirming fully those which had come to me, and that what had struck him was the comparative calmness with which these atrocities were detailed by those who had first-hand knowledge of them.

Orders came from Constantinople that all the Armenian Christians in Trebizond were to be killed. Many of the Moslems tried to save their Christian neighbours, and offered them shelter in their houses, but the Turkish authorities were implacable.

It would seem that three-fourths or four-fifths of the whole nation has been wiped out, and there is no case in history, certainly not since the time of Tamerlane, in which any crime so hideous and upon so large a scale has been recorded.

...there is no ground for the suggestion that there had been any rising on the part of the Armenians.

Wherever the Armenians, almost wholly unarmed as they were, have fought, they have fought in self-defence to defend their families and themselves from the cruelty of the ruffians who constitute what is called the Government of the country. There is no excuse whatever upon any such ground as some German authorities and newspapers allege, for the conduct of the Turkish Government.

Their policy of slaughter and deportation has been wanton and unprovoked. It appears to be simply an application of the maxim once enunciated by Sultan Abdul Ilamid: "The way to get rid of the Armenian question is to get rid of the Armenians"; and the policy of extermination has been carried out with far more thoroughness and with far more bloodthirsty completeness by the present heads of the Turkish Administration-they describe themselves as the Committee of Union and Progress - than it was in the time of Abdul Hamid.

Of the Armenian people as a whole we may put an estimate that three-fourths are gone, and this three-fourths includes the leaders in every walk of life, merchants, professional men, preachers, bishops and government officials. I have said enough. Our hearts are sick with the sights and stories of abject terror and suffering. The extermination of the race seems to be the objective, and the means employed are more fiendish than could be concocted locally. The orders are from headquarters, and any reprieve must be from the same source.

--THOTH 20:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

exerpts from German Ambassador Von Wangenheim's April 15 1915 report back to Germany:

German archives # DE/PA-AA/R14085

"Pera, 15 April 1915

From the news from East Anatolia it is obvious that the relations between the Turkish Muslim population and the Armenians, which were already tense beforehand, have worsened even more in the course of the past few months. The mutual mistrust is growing and dominating the people and official circles, both in the interior as well as in the capital.

The complaints about the alleged and actual persecution which the Armenians are suffering as a result of the war are increasing in number and volume; on the other hand, they are being accused of sympathising with the Empire's enemies...

Each side is revoking the accusations of the other party as unfounded, or the blame for such events is being put on the others. There only seems to be agreement on one point: that the Armenians have given up their ideas of a revolution since the introduction of the Constitution and that there is no organisation for such a revolt.

Without doubt, excesses and acts of terror have taken place against the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and, in general, the events have probably been related correctly by the Armenian side, even if they were somewhat exaggerated.

For the events in these areas, the following are being made responsible by the Armenian side:

1. The irregulars and bands of marauders organised in military fashion and bearing the title Militia; these are being blamed for numerous plunders, murders, for robbery and other acts committed against the Armenian population of the country.

2. The clubs affiliated with the Comité Union et Progrès, in which many dishonest elements are said to be present. It is said that these clubs, in particular the one in Erzerum, have set up formal proscription lists, and a series of political murders which were committed on various respected Armenians since December of last year are attributed to their activities. It is added that the Ministry of the Interior is said to have been warned some time ago by the Armenians about the activities of these clubs which have already played a disastrous role during the events at Adana in 1909.

3. Various civil servants, in particular the governor of Musch (Vilayet Bitlis) and the Vali of Van. It is stated amongst other things that some 2000 Muslim families from the Russian occupied district of Alaschgerd, who are hardly in a position to pay for their own keep, have been accommodated in the Armenian villages of Musch; the Armenian farmers were being used like draft animals to transport ammunition and provisions and many of them died from this inhumane treatment; the least of them, it is said hardly a quarter, returned to their villages. 'In two districts of Van formal butcheries took place under the connivance of the Kaymakams'.

it is emphasised that the Armenians – a fact which, one might note, is contested by the Turks - despite all the suffering they have been subjected to, are behaving loyally and correctly, but at least passively. However, under a continued, systematic persecution it can be feared that this peaceful attitude may take a turn to the contrary; the parties loyal to the government, such as the Daschnakzutiun, would no longer be able to hold back the masses and there would be a danger that, if the Russians advanced, not only the Armenians in the invaded area would go over to the side of the enemy, but also possible insurrections would be aroused behind the backs of the Turkish Army.

As far as the considerations otherwise presented by the Armenian side are concerned, they deserve serious attention.

...the present atmosphere in government circles...is most unfavourable for the Armenians...

....end

So from the above one can see that violent actions are already occuring against the Armenians (as we know by centrally directed Special Organization irregular units as part of a grand plan) with no mention of the reverse (Armenians are amazingly docile and quite considering - with individuals fleeing and deserting to the other side only) - which surely would have been mentioned by Turkey's ally it would seem. Additionally - we see no appreciable Armenian violence against Turks and certainly no armed rebellion of any kind. --THOTH 20:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

good sources. now lets see what is going on. bolds by me. "Significantly prominent in the movement were Seth Apcar, the London resident Armenian and Garegin Papazian from Izmir, who was also a close friend of one of the most noted pro-Armenian Englishmen Viscount Lord James Bryce. He supported and argued for the Armenian just(oh yea!) cause in the Lords, and more important introduced Gladstone and Lord Terpin to Garegin Papazian. To increase the momentum created in London by Seth Apcar, Lord Bryce and Garegin Papazian with the Armenian community against the Turkish regime, an Armenian committee was set up with Seth Apcar as Honorary President and Garegin Papazian as Chairman.

By this time the Turko-Russian war was over and the Berlin Congress of 1878 (old pal indeed) was coming to a close. This was a very important opportunity to display the strength of the Anglo-Armenian movement against the Turkish regime by demonstrations, publications and dialogue (which means propaganda), and to a certain extent this was carried out." Armenian site. So old Bryce, best Armenian friend writes that armenians are killed in an organised fasion what a surprise. the above paraghrap from an armenian page talks for me. please think twice or three times before citing English resources. "The Turkish race was... from the first black day they entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity... as far as their dominion reached, civilisation vanished from view." this is not from a hate site! William Gladstone, British Prime Minister, "The Bulgarian Horrors and the Question of the East," 1876 It is a fact that english goverment that time consisted of dedicated fierce Turkish haters. Such as Lord byron who fought by the side of greeks personally. please indicate your resources so that I can take a look and tell you whats going on.neurobio 00:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

: ? No idea what you are talking about dear chap. Propoganda in 1878? Anyway Bryce and Tonybee meticulously compiled and thoroughly sourced hundreds of eyewitness accounts from primarily non-Armenian observers in Anatolia during this period (1915) that independently described in considerable detail round up and mass extermination activites perpetuated against primarily Armenian women, children and elderly (by regional CUP and Ottoman officials, gendarmes and memebers of the special organization on orders of regional Ottoman officials acting on orders from the CUP - who were at times indifferent to pleas for leniency - other times boastful of their deeds against the Armenians - etc) - as well as detailed accounts of many related barbarities against them and of the retched conditions they were forced to endure. These are corraborate factual eyewitness acounts. Their veracity has been proven and recently affirmed and the authors additionally verified their accuracy long after the war. So useful as propoganda against the Ottoman Turks perhaps - but truthful and accurate these observations were. You cannot impune them with your off topic ad homenim attacks. What was done (to the Armenians) was done and much of what was done was witnessed - despite all efforts by the CUP criminals to hide their acts and destroy evidence of what what done. In addition to these and other eyewitnesses to these crimes their exist numerous confessions (in autobiographies and such) as well as convictions by the post-war Ottoman Military Tribunals - the detailed reported proceedings of which confirm the plans for, organization and carrying out of the extermination campaign against the Armenians for the districts in which the trials applied and in general with detailed descriptions of and confessions regarding the organization, purpose and activites of the Special Organization that was deliberatly established and charged with secret widespread liquidation activities against the Armenians. All of this is more then sufficiently documented...yet you have the gaul to suggest that all of these accounts, all of this evidence is some from of elaborate anti-Turkish propaganda hoax. Shame on you. Blood is now on your hands too as far as I am concerned and in the worlds eyes as well - yet you are too aparently caught up in your delusional interpretation of history (as a vast conspiracy against the Turks) to see it. sad. --THOTH 01:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy, ,ay hell help me. Fad (ix) 01:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy, I just hope that after the RfAr this sort of useless worthless copypasting and worthless debates by those that still contribute when they can't get what is the purpouses of a talkpage stop. Just one point Neurobio, and here I won't comment Thoth copypasting job(which I have done but he refuse to stop), with such answers as this you are showing that you still have no clue what you are doing here. We are NOT HERE to decide if there was a genocide or not, we are here simply to present the positions maintained about a subject. I just BTW have seen that the lead has been tainted by POV edits which I am not responsable of. Just one point, if you want to dismiss the British records, go ahead do so, since American and German records are just worster than those pro-Armenian British who literaly looted the Armenians once they got Berlin and managed the central banks liquidity transfered by the Young-Turks from the properties looted from the Armenians, the pro-Armenian British have used this to pay the Ottoman war debts. And it was also the pro-Armenian British who decided to end their mendate on the East abrutly before the American mendate making the military replacement impossible, which BTW wasn't helped by the US administration attempt to secure the Chester concession by sending Bristol. But do throw simplistic analysis by shooting 'pro-Armenian' and thinking discrediting the massacres. But guess what, the Blue Book material mostly originate from American records which could still be found in American archives, and the British records description of the situation is nothing compared to those you will find in American and German archives. So much of the British pro-Armenian stance who had a British battleship close to the landing when Adana Armenian Quarter was burning with its population in 1909 and haven't done the least. The pro-Armenian British were also those that pressurised the Russian Empire on the verge of invading the rest of Eastern Anatolia after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1878. Go ahead with your easytalk and do shoot 'pro-Armenian' my neutral friend by continuing this irrelevent discussion. Fad (ix) 01:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

This talk page is being vandalised with large numbers of entries being deleted

I demand that these very relevant discussions be re-instated and that the culprit cease his arbritary deletion of content. --THOTH 02:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

that is true this is not the place to decide what happened. No copy pasting then. So what will we disscuss? I say that if Armenian uprising before the deportations is quoted and discussed in another page (we dont have to give number since I believe this 500.000 is not true) and the section about western scolars objecting the issiue can be written in a propar format i have no other objections. I also am not very happy with the poster in the art section but not pushing too hard. I have no blood in my hands except for mice blood.neurobio 02:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

What Armenian uprising are you refering to? --THOTH 02:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The one that seems to be mysteriously erased from your memory Lutherian 05:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The same way that Ataturk critics have been erased from memory? They aren't any less notable than the Turkish government or revisionist positions regarding the Armenian genocide (to the contrary). But now let see how 'neutral' deepblue and neurobio are and if they indeed agree with the reintroduction of Ataturk critics back in his article, let see if they agree giving the space provided to their position in this article in the Ataturk article to add that man critics? Fad (ix) 16:26, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well you have to understand that there are those that consider Ataturk a saint because honestly I shudder at the thought of what Turkey would have been without him! Lutherian 17:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't represent any position. My only contributions to the article were adding the Western scholars who have different views (though the current text falls very short of what I initially added) and removing the speculations about why some countries such as the US and Israel don't have Armenian genocide legislations. To my suprise both of these changes required overcoming some obsessed resistance from a group of users. Besides these changes, I responded to some unreasonable claims in the talk pages. I don't see myself as a perpetual contributor to this article, so it's better to seek the consensus of others for the changes you've in mind. But if you ask my opinion 'only', I don't see any problems adding critics of Ataturk if they are supported by credible sources. Deepblue06 17:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well sorry, that is not quite right. Your removal of the US and Israel was POV, the majority of US states recognize it as genocide and each time the resolution is pulled out from the vote it is under the pretext that it is not good for US-Turkey relation and not that the genocide accurance is debatable. This isen't even a question of dispute, the resolution hasn't still been placed to be voted until now even thought it passed the first stage and that resolutions which obtains in proportion less votes are still placed to final vote, while in this cases they are always removed in the last minute. It happened here in Canada, it happened in France so many times, and it just happened another time in May 18 when the bill has been removed without being voted after that Douste-Blazy Foreign Minister Douste-Blazy said: "Turkey is a leading economic and trade partner... We cannot accept this bill," Internal poll in various occasions in the US have shown that if the bill was to be placed to vote it would have probably passed and the last minutes they were removed repeatdly. So removing such an information which can hardly be considered as speculative was indeed POV. You could have reworded it insteed of removing it, something I have done myself before it was tainted again. As for adding the scholars in question, I did propose that before Tommiks and his socks have rearanged the article and disturbed an earlier peace in the talk page where there was propositions on how to correct the issues of NPOV, something initiated by Francis. Also, you were responsable of a great amount of nonesensitical discussions which have no place in a talk page, like your fetish the internationa tribunal, after it has been explained countless numbers of times, my fingers being tired of explaining this that a talk page is related to the article and not somewhere where people discuss about the prolongation of the subject. Fad (ix) 17:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You seriously have an attitude problem. I understand that this is a very emotional topic for you, but that’s no excuse for your aggressive offensive language. I’ve better things to do at this nice weekend then to torture myself dealing with a character like you. For others, who’re still reading Fadix’s long essays, my arguments for the lack of an International Court verdict and for a neutral description (devoid of speculations) of the positions of countries are well supported as you can follow through the links. Deepblue06 17:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Offensive language? Emotional? Do you need a refresh memory about whom between both of us was emotional when I simply corrected you about the 69 individuals? That I proposed you to contact an Internationa Law institute of a reputable University and that you ignored my proposition to provide you their email address I guess is what you call 'emotional.' I repeat, US not recognizing it is NOT speculation, even Turkey admit that it is because of their own pressure. I guess foreign ministers saying that bills should be removed, or phone calls from Ankara the day it is pulled out, or Turkish prime minister accusing the US government not having sufficient control on their representatives or the foreign minister threatning the US with sanctions . Or Haster corruptions. Of course all those for you are speculation and I am becoming emotional, even though even Turkey doesn't hide its pressures and that foreign ministers years after years each time the bill is put on table advice to reject it and that its rejection is on the bases of US-Turkey relation. Only speculations, remove it, sure, go ahead remove it. Your arguments about the International Court Verdict are as ungrounded as those of your removal of material which you don't like from the article Fad (ix) 18:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, you never corrected me on any subject including the 69 scholars . You're hallucinating again just like when you falsely accused me being the user Torque and then admitting your mistake with no apology but kept accusing me being the user Neurobio . Deepblue06 18:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I still think in some way or another two users registered in under two days interval bringing the same exact points are related. When someones IP address concord with Sedat Laciner IP address and with the same internet provider and that this wave again pick after two new users appear, I doubt all this could be called simply coincidences. And I made it clear why I will not apologize to you, and I apologized in various occasions for my mistakes, but given all the slanders you directed at my person, and that your intimidations(and with this username of yours) started even before I started accusing you of anything you are very badly placed to request any apology from me. As for Hallucination. Oh yeh, I won't start naming the phenomenon of mass delusion known in psychiatry when a groupe of people think alike, I will be again the one that will restrain. Anyway, the inquisition might start today when I submit the RfAr and live your chance to bring anything you want as evidences. Fad (ix) 18:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Frankly im worried about you Fadix, do you even enjoy life? Do you ever take a break? Reading your repetitive essays are becoming very tiresome Lutherian 17:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

who deleted all that stufff? what the hackneurobio 02:26, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The idiot who deleted sections seems to have done so deliberatly - not having anything to do with copy-pasting - but IMO because he/she objected to content...we must be backstabbing and disrespecting Turks again...--THOTH 02:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Zibitaur removed the content from the talk discussion. Your average vandal... No need to get hostile... If he vandalises again he will likely be blocked. --Cat out 12:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There numerous attacks by armenian bands. I will provide info later. It is almost morning in europeneurobio 02:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

? --THOTH 02:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think another article about Armenian cannibals eating Turkish babies should be writen too. The next time you visit Bonn, check the Centralarchiv about your story. "The Armenian Crisis, 1912-1914" by Davison relate the prior war Armenian situation. Of course you can creat such an article about Armenian upraising, but you will have to expect that the majority position should also be included or else it will be a FORK. Fad (ix) 02:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know I have readded the deleted sections of this talk page and I have warned the user who has removed them not to do so again. Please remember to be civil and avoiding making personal attacks even against vandals. Thanks -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 02:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent article with relevance to discussions here concerning use of the word genocide, government arhives, eyewitnesses and recognition (copyvio redacted) --THOTH 13:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Robert Fisk wrote in The Independent. Since the article is pay-to-view or subscription, a cut and paste here is a clear copyvio. Removed accordingly. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that Fisk has been misled by what he claims to be survivors. No doubt they were survivors that witnessed a massacre committed against them but arent we going around in circles again? Did he meet moslem survivors of the Armenian massacres? The sad thing in all this is that those so called survivors didnt teach their children to remember a tragic period in history, what they taught them was hatred and they seem to have succeeded. Bravo! Lutherian 17:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Again - just what Armenian massacres is it that youo are refering to? I find your comments on this issue somewhat amusing on one level...but certainly quite sad on anohter. I will post an exerpt from Elif Shafak in hopes that it may cause you and other Turks like you to reflect and think a bit...as she has...

In Istanbul, a Crack In the Wall of Denial - We're Trying to Debate the Armenian Issue

By Elif Shafak - Sunday, September 25, 2005; ISTANBUL

I am the daughter of a Turkish diplomat -- a rather unusual character in the male-dominated foreign service in that she was a single mother. ... throughout my childhood, the word "Armenian" meant only one thing to me: a terrorist who wanted to kill my mother. Faced with hatred, I hated back. But that was as far as my feelings went. It took me years to ask the simple question: Why did the Armenians hate us? My ignorance was not unusual. For me in those days, and for most Turkish citizens even today, my country's history began in 1923, with the founding of the modern Turkish state. The roots of the Armenians' rage -- in the massacres, atrocities and deportations that decimated Turkey's Armenian population in the last years of Ottoman rule, particularly 1915 -- were simply not part of our common historical memory. But for me today, and for a growing number of my fellow Turks, that has changed. Until my early twenties, like many Turks living abroad, I was less interested in history than in what we described as "improving Turkey's image in the eyes of Westerners." As I began reading extensively on political and social history, I was drawn to the stories of minorities, of the marginalized and the silenced Yet it was not until I came to the United States in 2002 and started getting involved in an Armenian-Turkish intellectuals' network that I seriously felt the need to face the charges that, beginning in 1915, Turks killed as many as 1.5 million Armenians and drove hundreds of thousands more from their homes. I focused on the literature of genocide, particularly the testimony of survivors; I watched filmed interviews at the Zoryan Institute's Armenian archives in Toronto; I talked to Armenian grandmothers, participated in workshops for reconciliation and collected stories from Armenian friends who were generous enough to entrust me with their family memories and secrets. With each step, I realized not only that atrocities had been committed in that terrible time but that their effect had been made far worse by the systematic denial that followed. I came to recognize a people's grief and to believe in the need to mourn our past together. I also got to know other Turks who were making a similar intellectual journey. Obviously there is still a powerful segment of Turkish society that completely rejects the charge that Armenians were purposely exterminated. Some even go so far as to claim that it was Armenians who killed Turks, and so there is nothing to apologize for. These nationalist hardliners include many of our government officials, bureaucrats, diplomats and newspaper columnists. They dominate Turkey's public image -- but theirs is only one position held by Turkish citizens, and it is not even the most common one. The prevailing attitude of ordinary people toward the "Armenian question" is not one of conscious denial; rather it is collective ignorance. These Turks feel little need to question the past as long as it does not affect their daily lives. There is a third attitude, prevalent among Turkish youth: Whatever happened, it was a long time ago, and we should concentrate on the future rather than the past. "Why am I being held responsible for a crime my grandfather committed -- that is, if he ever did it?" they ask. Meanwhile, the Armenian question has been prominently featured in Turkish media. Hurriyet, the nation's most popular newspaper, ran a series of pro and con interviews on this formerly taboo subject, called "The Armenian Dossier." The upcoming trial of acclaimed author Orhan Pamuk, charged with "denigrating" Turkish identity for talking about the killing of Kurds and Armenians, has been fervently debated. Various columnists have directly apologized to the Armenians for the sufferings caused to their people by the Turks. And stories have been reported of orphaned Armenian girls who saved their lives by changing their names, converting to Islam and marrying Turks -- and whose grandchildren are unaware today of their own mixed heritage. All this activity has triggered a nationalist backlash. That should be expected...Foreign Minister Gul,in New York, lamented what effect this would have on Turkey's quest to join the European Union: "There's no one better at hurting themselves than us," he said.Through the collective efforts of academics, journalists, writers and media correspondents, 1915 is being opened to discussion in my homeland as never before. The process is not an easy one and will disturb many vested interests. I know how hard it is -- most children from diplomatic families, confronting negative images of Turkey abroad, develop a sort of defensive nationalism, and it's especially true among those of us who lived through the years of Armenian terrorism. But I also know that the journey from denial to recognition is one that can be made.

--THOTH 02:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, the classic Armenain grandmothers spewing their hate venom. Thanks THOTH, I see the light now Lutherian 05:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Obviously you are just incapable....wave that Turkish flag high now...--THOTH 14:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

And everyone should read and ponder this one...http://ermeni.org/english/vdadrian_harvard.htm

--THOTH 03:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nobody here says that no armenians were killed. They were killed, tortured and raped, just like muslims but maybe at a larger scale. I just say that it was not systematic and intentional and thus not a genocide. Dear fadix it was I that you corrected about the numbers of historians. So you say that you think Deepblue is me. I am not buying any of your stories any more. you are using a accusing and blaming strategy. I say everybody ignore fadix when he comes up with his conspiracy theories.neurobio 19:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Read my words more carefuly, I said both of you aree linked somehow and not that both of you are the same person. This accusation of paranoia was levelled against me back with when I accused Lutherian to be a fake, which was right and confirmed by Checkusers. Also, yes, at the beggining I was mistaking you, but it is not for me to go on the history of the page and check who logged or what IP has been used to know who is the poster. Any accusations against me based on an assumption from my part to an unsigned post are groundless because people ought to sign their posts. That all the major 'professional' revisionist players on the net have at least once had something to do with this article, is enough for an Arbcom cases. That Laciner has a recorded one edit at least, (while IP's in the talk page suggest he engaged here too), that Holdwater AKA Torque did, and that there are sufficent evidences that he is still engaged. That our chap Lutherian has constantly attempted to add back TAT page and has recycled everyonbe of his crap from TAT site, even some of Holdwaters favoured words and expressions. That you and Deepblue06 register in under two days interval etc., those are plently of evidences of irregularity. If you think that anyone will ignore me because of what you consider as conspiracy theories is simply naive. Fad (ix) 19:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

one word ma boy, PARANOIA Lutherian 05:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

and you should read my lines more carefully. "I say ignore fadix when he comes up with conspiracy theories". for example I ignore you claim " I said both of you aree linked somehow and not that both of you are the same person." there is no point in talking who is who. and as you can see I register and sign almost every day. there was a problem in the first days just because I was using copy paste to sign. later on I learned the right way since then nothing can be said about me.neurobio 21:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

These — WP:SPA and WP:SOCK — may be of interest.

(From WP:SOCK). Not quite as simple as it might seem. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Communication

Taking into account that the personal attacks became a norm in this talk page, I suggest that everyone posts under his/her own name not the nickname or unanimously. It is a matter of civilized communication and mutual respect.

To the author of this article: It is sometimes wise to disregard and ignore those contributors who write under nicknames rather than their own names. Due to the offensive character of some contributors I urge you not to respond in any way to such people.

Thanks Vahan Senekerimyan 20:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Those who deny the Holocaust use same rational and arguments as Turks who deny the Armenian Genocide

I'm posting this to illustrate the similarities to the genocide denial from the "Turkish position" as presented in the article currently - to that commonly espoused by Holocaust deniers. I should note that those who deny the Holocaust are not given equal space or such in the Holocaust article to espouse their hateful revisionist views...

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060513/NEWS02/605130365&SearchID=73244627604496

Excerpt:

BIRMINGHAM -- A Democratic candidate for attorney general denies the Holocaust occurred...

Speaking in an interview with The Associated Press, Darby said he believes no more than 140,000 Jewish people died in Europe during World War II, and most of them succumbed to typhus.

Historians say about 6 million Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis, but Darby said the figure is a false claim of the "Holocaust industry." "I am what the propagandists call a Holocaust denier, but I do not deny mass deaths that included some Jews," Darby said. "There was no systematic extermination of Jews. There's no evidence of that at all."

--THOTH 14:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

More:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/genocide/deniers_01.shtml

Holocaust deniers are people who contend that the Holocaust - the attempt by Nazi Germany to annihilate European Jewry during World War Two - never happened. According to the deniers, the Nazis did not murder six million Jews, the notion of homicidal gas chambers is a myth, and any deaths of Jews that did occur under the Nazis were the result of wartime privations, not of systematic persecution and state-organised mass murder. Deniers dismiss all assertions that the Holocaust took place as conscious fabrications, or as psychotic delusions.

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp

There is no single Nazi document that expressly enumerates a "master plan" for the annihilation of European Jewry

There Were No Gas Chambers Used for Mass Murder at Auschwitz and Other Camps

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly recollected testimonies of survivors.

Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

The Nuremberg Trials Were a "Farce of Justice" Staged for the Benefit of the Jews

Is it just me - or do all these arguments sound very familiar...? --THOTH 14:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Considering the scope and intensity of Genocide denial - in general - on the part of the Turkish Government - and spcifically - by certain contributors to this talk page and article - I strongly urge the creation of an article similar to this http://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust_denial concerning Holocaust denial - be created concerning Armenian Genocide denial. --THOTH 14:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/The_Armenians/Denial/denial.html

This page covers a broad overview of Turkish denial which conforms to my view concerning how it should be presented (though with more detailed accounts and specific arguments). I like how it asigns the origins of Gencodide denial to 1915 itself with excuses and justifications used for the actions taken and the extent to which Armenians were being victimized. Of course this can be greatly expanded. More detail concerning both specific arguments and methods from the Turkish side is needed as well - including accounts of Official Turkish government efforts to quash genocide recognition and - something missing in the referenced article - the campaign within Turkey to destroy Armenian monuments and evidence of Armenian presence in Anatolia. A section concerning web vandalism and the presence of nationalistic Genocide denying Turks on the internet would also be appropriate. So any other suggestions? interest? I'm not sure how to srat up an article and if it is proceeded by a talk page for presntation and discussion of ideas - but I really think that this article is needed. Armenain Genocide denial is an ongoing and persistent problem whose effects are wideranging - affecting even the Misplaced Pages process concerning this and other historical article related to Turkish history and such. --THOTH 15:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

yawn another misguided attempt to discredit those that reject the genocide thesis, its amazing how creative the human mind can sometimes be! Who knows what you will come up with next? Lutherian 16:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

your good work to find those pages may have meant something if it wasn't American (as well as many other nations) historians with huge chairs in respected univercities who are denying the genocide. It is a fact that many scolars are denying this so called genocide(at least look at the jpg above). If you are trying to ban their view by saying that they are lunatics like Holocaus deniers (most famous now is Ahmedi Nedjat from İran) I say you are beeing funny. Also your claim "the campaign within Turkey to destroy Armenian monuments and evidence of Armenian presence in Anatolia." is completely a part of hate campaign by the diaspora and bullS****. I know you are not eager to research and re think. but please at least write Akdamar in wikipedia and see that Turkey is restorating a very important Armenian Church. İt has now been finished. And guess what! Armenian experts and stone craft masters did the restoration in order to be sure that it is done properly. you always talk about hate and racism but you are using all tools to smear any thing about Turkey. Behold the way of the diaspora!!! and I see that you have a problem with the democratic wikipedia process. You have no tolerance for the people who do not think like you. İt is normal to have hard discussions on a issiue which is disputed world wide. And I agree that the wikipedia process is slowed down. But it might have been faster if you dont try so hard do discredit and smear any other person who doesnt think like you. And when it comes to Web vandalism it is known that all turkish sites about the issiue are under constant hacker attack. Maybe this can be a good article too?neurobio 22:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you say we call it a so-called restoration - eh? I've been there recently BTW.--THOTH 03:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

ah my jpg showing a page signed by American historians rejecting the genocide and telling why they reject it is not there anymore! it is now in the previous discussion history pages.neurobio 22:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The most famous is Ahmedia Nedjat? I thought Irving, Rassinier, Faurisson, Rudolf etc. were much more famous. 'Reputability' of a University might be relevant to draw a notability you suggest here if it correspond to the majority position. Not here, nor anywhere else in your edits in this talkpage have you confirmed this. Also, when you use the Turkish 'İ' in a post, or refer to such things such as the restoration of Akhtamar, one thing remains, is why have you found yourself the need to forge an identity to defend your position. Akhtamar important church as you refer, its renovation means the destruction of its historic nature. The church is full of bullet wholes, serving in the past as target for shuts or so-called treasure hunters destroying an important section. Leaving it to its own destruction and then renovating it simply means doing what has been done to the church's at Ani. Fad (ix) 00:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

here we go again. if you read my previous (one of the first, talking about the phd and so on) post you may have a clue why I sometimes use 'İ'. good observation though i appreciate it. I hope you do the same in your history studies. Any way now read the post again "(most famous now is Ahmedi Nedjat from İran). Turkey restores an Armenian monument when they even have no money to support their own museums and look what happens. So if its restored "its renovation means the destruction of its historic nature." if it is not then "Leaving it to its own destruction". you can never make some people happy.neurobio 01:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

you are underestimating people assuming that only Turks can have access to such knowledge. and please take a look at http://www.landmarksfoundation.org/projects_akhtamar.shtml to see how "destruction of its historic nature" achieved by Landmarks foundation and unv. of pensilvania and Armenians.neurobio 02:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

No, not only Turks will have access to such knowledge, but only Turks will claim that Armenian monuments in Turkey are restorted by using Akhtamar as reference. Reread what I said, leaving a monument being destroyed and even participating on its destruction and then planing a renovation is actualy destroying it. It is like destroying an ancient wall and reconstructing it back and claiming it has the same historic value. www.virtualani.org/ provides various examples in particular on the supposed reconstructions at Ani. As for your claim that they restore Armenian monuments when they have no money to support their own museums, here is the sort of things that shows your clear biases. Reconstruction of monuments generate a lot of tourists, mostly in this cases Diasporan Armenians, besides UNESCO finance like various other international organizations such renovations, you are picturing this as if Turkey is doing Armenians a favior, when those monuments are protected under UNESCO and that Turkey must meet some requests. The destruction of monuments is considered as a cultural genocide, the Turkish representing party at Lausanne have threatned to bring Ani to the ground if they were not to obtain their requests, various irreplaceble Armenian monuments were destroyed, the army even used them as practice targets, Armenian letters were removed in carvings while Ottoman letters still remains to this day. I am talking about this, because I believe that this should definitly be included in the article, and that you are talking about how nice the Turkish government is here is the sort of things that makes me suspicious. You will see the Diasporan Armenians being very harsh with the Armenian government, you will see many supporting the Turks being very harsh with the Turkish government, but when someone start pretending how the Turkish government cares about Armenian monuments and bring back the rhetoric that it doesn't even have the money to restore its own... Fad (ix) 03:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Fadix sometimes I have the feeling that even you dont believe in what you write. or you are too eager to accept any thing against Turkey. because a simple google search clearifies the issiue. first take a look at this site (http://www.international.icomos.org/risk/2002/turkey2002.htm) and see that it is not Armenian monuments that are endangered and or destroyed by time, disasters and teribble restorations. Also monuments of Turkish, muslim, Roman and greek origin are at sake. Second anyone who has been to istanbul can see that the city walls are half collapsed and half so so badly restorated, many monumets are just waiting to be restored and some just filled with cement to stop a collapse, many monumets were damaged by vandals. I asked our guide what it is all about he said the damn goverment goes for the cheapest and in many cases they give the job to their own people who are just construction firms. So that is also stated in your virtual ani site (i thought you never use armenian sources) "The truth is that the surviving monuments at Ani are being exploited rather like an open-cast mine for the extraction of money. As long as Ani can be used by Ankara politicians as a conduit to distribute State money into the pockets of their local political and business allies in Kars (Professor Karamağaralı has reportedly called them a "Mafia") then the "restorations" will continue until everything in Ani is destroyed." thanks god that it has been stopped and proper restoration is beeing done now (http://www.landmarksfoundation.org/projects_ani.shtml). But I have read far more interesting things in these sites "Armenian groups are uninterested in doing anything practical. Many of these groups actually continue to present the lame old reasoning that nothing should be done towards pressuring the Turks on the issue of preserving Armenian monuments because it would only hasten the destruction of the remaining monuments. What has this pathetic policy of inactivity led to during the last few decades - has it saved a single building or has it just provided them with an easy excuse for doing nothing?" (this is from virtual ani. and please note that it is actually an armenian site. it looks to be a nice site about an historical site yet it has whole lot of propaganda about the genocide). also this page (http://www.landmarksfoundation.org/projects_akhtamar.shtml) says "Surprisingly, no funds have been forthcoming from American-Armenian sources". well I guess they are putting all their money to hate campaigns. Or are they just waiting for these monuments to get worse and worse so they can have a better chance of promoting "cultural genocide" propaganda.

one last thing: Please note that an ancient mosque within the region is completely ruined and vanished too. (Why not protect the mosque and demolish others if you want to prove that no armenians lived in this land)

So saying that a genocide happened in the history is something but trying to smear todays Turkey is another thing. I will not go and read the Lausanne treaty. But i just answer your claim "Turkish representing party at Lausanne have threatned to bring Ani to the ground if they were not to obtain their requests" like this: "as if Greeks, English and others would care a single bit". please stop thinking that the world is rotating around you Armenians.

You say that I am biased. Yes I declare that I am biased just like you. I love Turkey and Turkish people. But unlike you I can be persuated when I see solid data.

It is visible that the scale of vandalism by Turkish villagers is immense but you can see the same thing in Cappadocia and Ephessus and probably many other places. names are written on a 10m high ceeling, stones are taken away to build houses. I still can't figure how they do that.neurobio 23:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

First of, as surprising as you might think, virtualani isen't an Armenian website, its author isen't an Armenian, which is by now widely known since he finally decided to become public starting with about last summer when he started to give lectures. The Turkish translation has been also done by a Turk, who BTW, I personaly know and is a friend of mine and who recognize the genocide. Surprising enought, all my Turkish friends online are from Turkey, none are from the West, who are more into fanatism and perverted patriotism. Here again, you assumed right away that just because a site cricised Turkey in anyway or that is contains references about the genocide, it must be an Armenian website. Again, as you see, by now, that your biases is not your love for Turkey or Turkish people (such words BTW are simply dumb, I love people on personal basis, it is actually dumb to claim hating or loving a people) but more to do with what is not, which from the beginning was the entire issue. I will quit talking about this now, but just to point that the threats about Ani from the Turkish delegation, was indeed real and taken serious by the Europeans that weren't caring because it was Armenian, but rather attempting to secure churchs. Fad (ix) 01:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually there is much truth in what you write here - (concerning the lack of official attention to historical treasures of Anatolia and the use of such primarily as a cash cow for certain well placed locals...oh and the destruction of individuals - be it for farm/home use or because of hunting for the legendary Armenian treasures eh) - however there can also be no denying that Turkey has undertaken a deliberate campaign at vandalism of Armenian structures as well as changing of (Armenian) place and other names and so on and so forth. Some of us understand why the Republic does so much to conceal the Armenian heritage much of its lands and obscure Armenian involvement in both Ottoman and pre-Ottoman history of the region. It is for some of the very same reasons Turks deny the Genocide - because their history - their national myth - of Turks as victims - and Turks as Turks - is all caught up and contradicted by the Genocide of the Armenians...the guilt is great...but the cost (of admission) is still obviously too high. I hope that Turks/Turkey can one day grow up - hopefully in my lifetime. I would think that more Turks would wish for this as well...--THOTH 03:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

hmmm funny how homogeneous Armenia is! Hardcore ethnic cleansing anyone? Lutherian 06:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

System of a Down

The metal group System of a Down wrote a lot of songs about the genocide, such as P.L.U.C.K., X, and Holy Mountains.

Its not really important, just a neat tid bit.

(personal attacks

This link was provided in the arguments section: http://en.wikipedia.org/Ottoman_Armenian_Population

and also see the links therein. An agreement regarding the numbers of the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire would help proceeding with understanding of the nature of the events. Although rather uncertain, the population decrease btw the end of the 19th century and 1918 or so, points to massive killings of an ethnic minority which was not largely involved in the war.

Let's not ask the question at this point WHY this ethnic minority (Armenians) was massacred, instead let's make sure we come into agreement first just about the numbers. You can argue about anything and everything but you cannot argue with the simple laws of addition and subtraction of numbers.

I encourage the Turkish contributors here to pay attention to the links above and express their opinions. Let's not hurry about putting a tag on the events, calling it a genocide or something else, just look at the numbers and the references if you wish. Don't you think that we have a dramatic loss of the Armenian population?

Vahan Senekerimyan 07:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

oh no, here we go again Lutherian 08:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what this emotional response is supposed to mean. If you are having a problem adding numbers taking into account the uncertanties if there exist such, then I am afraid you cannot discuss and moreover understand the complexity of the problem.

If your response means somethnig like "We have already discussed this" then I have to say you haven't done it successfully, because you are still arguing on these pages about more complex things than just simple arithmetics that needs be done first.

Anyway, I had two guesses about your immediate response, let me not guess anymore, just do not bother responding.

Vahan Senekerimyan 08:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Please dont patronize us, if you want info on Ottoman period Armenain demographics, I suggest you have a look at Justin McCarthy's excellent piece on "the population of Ottoman Armenians" here. There is no need to go around in circles, the magical vanishing act is just malicious propoganda! Lutherian 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A government site, and a work published by the National assembly. :) Fad (ix) 17:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

ok so anything that is funded by the Armenian disapora or the Armenian government from now on should be rejected Lutherian 18:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

please accept that user Vahan Senekerimyan is one of the individuals who talks in a sensible fassion. this article is locked. we must start from somewhere to negotiate. there is no need to go wild against him. I have made my proposal before if armenian uprising, and assasianations and assaination attempts agains the ottoman goverment is added and opposing view is writen in a proper length and language (the current article tries to show opposition as insignificant as possible). I have no other serious objections. if you want to start from the numbers then lets start from there. We are not here to decide if a genocide happened or not. Misplaced Pages is here to show what current historical literature says. and for this system of a down group. it is clearly a racist hate group and if we say they are doing art what is art anyway? neurobio 14:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Totally untrue, excludes the lead and the culture section, there are 2,629 words dedicated to the Turkish government position, and only 3,183 words for what is said by most historians in the West, the international community etc, and what is said to have happened. In terms of space, the Turkish government position is given much more spaces for the position about an accurence of an event than the majority position. So what you claim is totally groundless. As for System of a down, you should hear all the BS rap groups or rock groups scream about, personally system of a down is not my type, but the sort of music, if we can call that music, they sing, is the sort of antagonizing about every bit of daily life. Fad (ix) 17:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

well no matter which way you look at it the debate has been going on for 90 years so your logic that its the world vs TR and that this should be the basis of measure does not really hold! Lutherian 18:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Give your opinions factual support, please

Whoever DOES have authority to edit this article: the term "obviously false" with no textual support does not belong in Misplaced Pages. I highly recommend that a veteran Wikipedian clean this article up a bit, making the mode of communication a bit more intelligent and a bit less like a rant. I'm not debating how true it is, I'm just saying its presented in an ugly way, and you don't put personal opinions in an encyclopedia, do you?

I agree, no one has control over this sort of edit wars, and this is what I expect from the RfAr I will fill. Only then, could this article be finally improved. Fad (ix) 17:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Armenian articles
• Unknown-importance Armenian articles
• WikiProject Armenia articles
• Unassessed Turkey articles
• Unknown-importance Turkey articles
• All WikiProject Turkey pages
• Old requests for peer review