Talk:Lew Rockwell: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:27, 26 April 2013 editSteeletrap (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users10,937 edits →Misplaced material/inaccurate section title ← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:29, 26 April 2013 edit undoSteeletrap (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users10,937 edits →Misplaced material/inaccurate section title Next edit →
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	::The issue here isn't cleansing, it's putting the section in the wrong place. It belongs with Ron Paul material. Whether it deserves a title and what an NPOV title would be, is another issue. Making changes like that before discussing it is edit warring behavior, by the way. Any NPOV editors out there willing to opine, or shall we go to WP:BLPN? '']''<big>🗽</big> 17:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)		::The issue here isn't cleansing, it's putting the section in the wrong place. It belongs with Ron Paul material. Whether it deserves a title and what an NPOV title would be, is another issue. Making changes like that before discussing it is edit warring behavior, by the way. Any NPOV editors out there willing to opine, or shall we go to WP:BLPN? '']''<big>🗽</big> 17:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

	::: I've had a little experience with "edit warring" and I'm happy to step back until there is arbitration. ~~You~~ ~~can~~ ~~change~~ it ~~back~~ if ~~you~~ ~~want~~ ~~before~~ ~~then~~. My central argument for having a new section is that this is material to Rockwell's record in a very significant way (he's been mentioned more in the national media for his involvement with the newsletters than any other issue ever) independent from his overall work (e.g, as his Congressional staffer) with Ron Paul. Putting it in as a subsection of Lew's work for Ron Paul detracts attention from the newsletter thing, which is arguably the most significant part of Lew's notability. At a cosmetic level, it also clutters the Ron Paul section terribly. I am happy to change the name if people object to it, though I maintain calling the newsletters "racist and anti-gay" is -- though certainly provocative -- still the most descriptively accurate, non-euphemistic way of putting it. By "cleansing", I was referring to the fact (as I understand you stated it) that nothing about the newsletters is on Ron Paul's campaign pages. Maybe I misunderstood you though. ] (]) 17:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)		::: I've had a little experience with "edit warring" and I'm happy to step back until there is neutral arbitration (you are a libertarian and I am an anti-libertarian, so we both have our biases :) ). My central argument for having a new section is that this is material to Rockwell's record in a very significant way (he's been mentioned more in the national media for his involvement with the newsletters than any other issue ever) independent from his overall work (e.g, as his Congressional staffer) with Ron Paul. Putting it in as a subsection of Lew's work for Ron Paul detracts attention from the newsletter thing, which is arguably the most significant part of Lew's notability. At a cosmetic level, it also clutters the Ron Paul section terribly. I am happy to change the name if people object to it, though I maintain calling the newsletters "racist and anti-gay" is -- though certainly provocative -- still the most descriptively accurate, non-euphemistic way of putting it. By "cleansing", I was referring to the fact (as I understand you stated it) that nothing about the newsletters is on Ron Paul's campaign pages. Maybe I misunderstood you though. ] (]) 17:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

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Lew Rockwell -Hardistry removal

I don't believe that the Hardisty material is what WP calls vandalism. What policy-based reason do you have for its removal? Thank you. SPECIFICO talk 14:17, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

RE: this diff. First, I am being stalked by Misplaced Pages:Long-term_abuse/JarlaxleArtemis who reverts me all the time, going back even to older edits like his revert without explanation on March 18. (And see the nasty comment he left in his AnonIP edit before that.) This obviously was one of his.

To specifically discuss Hardisty, what was removed was:

Jean Hardisty, founder of Political Research Associates, wrote in 1999 that Rockwell was one of the most influential proponents of the paleoconservative faction of "right-wing libertarianism."== REF:Hardisty, Jean V. 1999. Mobilizing Resentment: Conservative Resurgence from the John Birch Society to the Promise Keepers. Boston: Beacon, pp. 170–178.

If someone who is the founder of an advocacy group writes a book is just wrong in their characterization, do we use it? Rockwell never called himself a Paleoconservative and "right-wing libertarianism" is just a mere descriptor used by some and not even an actual philosophy. So why include something that inaccurate and confusing? I do not think it would pass WP:BLPN or WP:RSN unless you can find other more NPOV WP:RS that also use that description. CarolMooreDC🗽 15:15, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Created section on alleged authorship of racist newsletters

Since this controversy on Rockwell's role in Ron Paul's old newsletters is (as far as I can see) by far the single biggest source of mentions of Rockwell in the mainstream news, it deserves a section in its own right; so I deleted the small mention of the newsletters in the "working for ron paul" part of the piece and created a new section more specifically describing the content newsletters. I also describe the newsletters as "racist" rather than racially charged because -- if the term "--racistRacist" has any substantive meaning or application -- it should apply to a publication that calls black people animals. Steeletrap (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

My thinking here is that the term "racist" is descriptive. How we define it may contain a value judgment (and definitions vary wildly) but the term racist, as a substitute for "expressing a belief that some races are inferior to others", can be used in a strictly descriptive sense (this is illustrated by the fact that people who share different values -- i.e. those who think racism is bad, and people who proudly identify as racists -- still operate under the same abstract understanding of what the term means). I can't imagine how any reasonable conception of racism would say that it isn't "racist" to slur African-Americans as "animals." Steeletrap (talk) 14:57, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced material/inaccurate section title

Per this diff "moved material under Ron Paul who is in the end responsible party; misleading section header since oversight not authorship the issue; raw URLs very ugly". I could say it in four paragraphs but hopefully that says it all. Put in couple comments from existing sources about what Ron Paul had to say about it. I see the controversy has been cleansed from his article and both Prez campaigns... CarolMooreDC🗽 16:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

That's just strange. Why should such an inflammatory scandal, (having one's name on newsletters which call blacks animals and say it was really the jews who attacked the WTC in 1993) heavily covered in the national media, merit no mention whatsoever on Paul's page? There have also been many efforts to "cleanse" this from Rockwell's page. Steeletrap (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The issue here isn't cleansing, it's putting the section in the wrong place. It belongs with Ron Paul material. Whether it deserves a title and what an NPOV title would be, is another issue. Making changes like that before discussing it is edit warring behavior, by the way. Any NPOV editors out there willing to opine, or shall we go to WP:BLPN? CarolMooreDC🗽 17:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I've had a little experience with "edit warring" and I'm happy to step back until there is neutral arbitration (you are a libertarian and I am an anti-libertarian, so we both have our biases :) ). My central argument for having a new section is that this is material to Rockwell's record in a very significant way (he's been mentioned more in the national media for his involvement with the newsletters than any other issue ever) independent from his overall work (e.g, as his Congressional staffer) with Ron Paul. Putting it in as a subsection of Lew's work for Ron Paul detracts attention from the newsletter thing, which is arguably the most significant part of Lew's notability. At a cosmetic level, it also clutters the Ron Paul section terribly. I am happy to change the name if people object to it, though I maintain calling the newsletters "racist and anti-gay" is -- though certainly provocative -- still the most descriptively accurate, non-euphemistic way of putting it. By "cleansing", I was referring to the fact (as I understand you stated it) that nothing about the newsletters is on Ron Paul's campaign pages. Maybe I misunderstood you though. Steeletrap (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

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