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Revision as of 19:18, 29 April 2013

Old discussions here

Hate in Jerusalem

After a previous discussion with you, I finally decided to follow up and support your point. I noticed a number of statements in Racism in Israel have direct bearing on Jerusalem:

• Rabbi David Batzri and his son Yitzhak were investigated by Police after they made racist remarks against Arabs and protested against a mixed Arab-Jewish school in Jerusalem.

• Jerusalem reported the highest number of racist incidents against Arabs. The report blamed Israeli leaders for the violence, saying "These attacks are not the hand of fate, but a direct result of incitement against the Arab citizens of this country by religious, public, and elected officials."

• On 21 December 2010, when a gang of Jewish youths was arrested in Jerusalem after carrying out a large number of attacks on Arabs. A girl aged 14 would lure Arab men to the Independence Park, where they were attacked with stones and bottles and severely beaten. The teens confessed to nationalistic motives.

• After a soccer game in March 2012, in which Beitar Jerusalem F.C. defeated a rival team at Jerusalem's Teddy Stadium, a group of at least a hundred Beitar fans entered the nearby Malha Mall chanting racist slogans and allegedly attacked Arab cleaning workers, whom some reports described as Palestinians. The police was criticized for initially failing to make arrests; it later investigated the incident, issuing restraining orders against 20 soccer fans and questioning several suspects among the cleaning crew seen waving sticks at the fans.

• Numerous racist attacks against Jews have taken place throughout Arab localities in the Galilee and in Arab areas of Jerusalem, including murders. Among the people killed in such attacks was Kristine Luken, an American tourist stabbed in a forest near Jerusalem after being seen wearing a Star of David necklace. In Jerusalem, Jews driving through Al-Issawiya have been subjected to ambushes by crowds, as was a repairman who had been hired by a resident. Emergency services vehicles have also been attacked while passing through the neighborhood. Jews who travel to the Mount of Olives also risk violence.

• , Thousands of Jews counter-rioted against Arabs in Nazareth, Bat Yam, Petah Tikva, Tiberias, Tel Aviv, Acre, Nazareth Illit, Lod, Rosh HaAyin, Or Akiva and Jerusalem, throwing stones at and beating Arabs, vandalizing and torching Arab homes and property, attacking Arab traffic, and chanting "Death to the Arabs!".

I am not sure what treatment should be given at Jerusalem, but here is some current-day evidence of Jerusalem being a 'capital of hate'. Given the statement that Jerusalem has "the highest number of racist incidents toward Arabs" it should not be hard to find further examples if this is something you'd like me to look for. ClaudeReigns (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem RfC discussion: step two

Hello. This is to let you know that we have now started step two in the Jerusalem RfC discussion, in which we will be deciding the general structure of the RfC. I have issued a call for statements on the subject, and I would be grateful if you could respond at some time in the next couple of days. Hope this finds you well — Mr. Stradivarius 16:36, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem RfC discussion: step two question

Hello everyone. I have asked a question about having drafts versus general questions at the Jerusalem RfC discussion, and it would be helpful if you could comment on it. I'm sending out this mass notification as the participation on the discussion page has been pretty low. If anyone is no longer interested in participating, just let me know and I can remove you from the list and will stop sending you these notifications. If you are still interested, it would be great if you could place the discussion page on your watchlist so that you can keep an eye out for new threads that require comments. You can find the latest discussion section at Talk:Jerusalem/2013 RfC discussion#Step two discussion. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 04:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ravpapa. Maybe you noticed it already, but I have just redacted parts of your comment in the step two discussion. I don't really regard those parts of your comments as incivil or anything - I just think it is better not to group editors together by their position, and especially not to assume that they are not open to compromise. If we assume that editors are unwilling to compromise, it has the effect of polarising discussion and making it harder to reach an agreement. Of course, what everyone really wants is the opposite, where all the editors can work together to find an agreement. I hope this explains why I redacted what I did, but please do ask if you have any questions about it. Best — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 00:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. Probably for the best. As someone who has been long involved in this dispute - too long, in fact - I am constantly reading the subtext in editors' comments, looking at how their suggestions are in subtle ways strategies for promoting their positions. Perhaps my involvement has made me too Machiavellian. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:22, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it was Machiavellian! At this point, I could get really deep about the reasons that I am so keen on avoiding labelling editors and avoiding opinions in comments (see also my post on Dlv999's talk page). However, I will just say that it is very easy for people to slip into a mindest of "us-versus-them", and that doing so isn't actually at all helpful in getting everyone what they need. People are bound to slip into these kinds of patterns given the nature and length of this dispute, and breaking this pattern of thinking is precisely the reason that I'm here. (Well, that, and to organise the discussion in a logical way, I suppose. :) — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 08:17, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi there. This is just a quick message to let you know that unless there is significant ongoing discussion, I intend to wrap up step two in a few days, probably on Thursday 31st 28th February. I invite you to have a look at the discussion there, especially at question five where I have just asked a question for all participants. — Mr. Stradivarius 13:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

"He was Jewish."

Hi Ravpapa-- Is it just me? I looked at Fredric Wertham earlier tonight, being reminded of the comic book controversy by my new NYTimes Headlines email, and there it was again: "He was Jewish." What relevance could that sentence possibly have to his career, or to the controversy? I deleted it, with the edit summary (del "He was Jewish" as irrelevant - would we say "He was "?)

I'm not generally aware of the religion (or ethnicity, if that's what it is) of Gentiles being always mentioned in articles as a matter of course, unless it's pretty relevant. I have no idea who is Jewish or not, but if so, it seems that I can always rely on Misplaced Pages editors to go out of their way to tell me about it. I do not get the impression that it's Jewish pride; and I must say it's starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth. So is it just me? Have you ever noticed anything to this effect? Milkunderwood (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no opinion one way or the other. If he were a Kyrgestani or an American Indian, I suppose you wouldn't object. Jews are a kind of borderline case - they are a minority but not a very minor one. In any case, he was a psychiatrist, and among psychiatrists Jews might well be a majority. Ravpapa (writing from a foreigner's computer) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.236.31.112 (talk) 11:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it is just me. It's a hard question. Just for the hell of it I looked up Merrill Moore just now, because he was the first psychiatrist who came to mind; and there's not a word about his ethnicity or religion. Milkunderwood (talk) 11:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

note re discussion

Hi. I expressed some comments on some of the ideas which you expressed at Talk:Jerusalem/2013 RfC discussion. feel free to drop by if you wish, and to add any comments further if you wish to do so. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

yes I saw your comments. Thanks for the support. I have nothing more to add at this point - prolixity simply adds obfuscation. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Your Dissertation Challenge

Dear Ravpapa,

I'm a third-year Ph.D. student studying journalism at Ohio University who would like to pursue a dissertation topic along the lines that you laid down in your very eloquent essay, "The Politicization of Misplaced Pages." My initial challenge is narrowing my focus to a half-dozen (or thereabout) of the most relevant controversial articles for my case studies.

I hope you can help me with the following questions:

Does it make sense to limit my topic to the ongoing battle over the Arab-Israeli conflict? If not, what other topics should I consider?

Should I choose from among articles with a disputed POV or those that led to requests for arbitration, or both?

A little about me. I'm a veteran journalist of 30 plus years who retired three years ago to pursue a second career in journalism education. I'm fascinated by the potential of Misplaced Pages to be a democraticizing influence but also aware of its limitations. I would be proud to advance in any small way I can the open, egalitarian process that Misplaced Pages has set as its goal.

Sincerely,

Jim DeBrosse E.W. Scripps School of Journalism Ohio University jimdebrosse@yahoo.com 937-307-9111 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.82.204 (talk) 13:50, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem RfC discussion: step three

Hello all. We have finally reached step three in the Jerusalem RfC discussion. In this step we are going to decide the exact text of the various drafts and the general questions. We are also going to prepare a summary of the various positions on the dispute outlined in reliable sources, per the result of question nine in step two. I have left questions for you all to answer at the discussion page, and I'd be grateful for your input there. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 08:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Request for clarification regarding Jerusalem RFC

A request for clarification has been submitted regarding the ArbCom mandated Jerusalem RFC process. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

1. "Religious fundamentalism in Israel" by Stephen Lendman, Research associate of the Centre for Research on Globalisation.
2. Rabbi Batzri to be probed for incitement
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4. "Teens suspected of attacking Arabs". Ynet. 2010-12-21.
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9. Greenwood, Phoebe (23 March 2012). "Israeli football fans in racist attack against shoppers in Jerusalem". The Guardian. Retrieved 14 June 2012.
10. Altman, Yair; Schubert, Gilad; Ben Shimol, David (3 April 2012). "המשטרה: "לא היה לינץ' בקניון מלחה". צפו". Ynet (in Hebrew). Retrieved 14 June 2012. עד כה נחקרו כמה עשרות מאוהדי בית"ר שהיו מעורבים באירוע, כאשר כעשרים מהם הורחקו מהמגרשים לתקופות שונות. בנוסף, כמה מהם וכמה מעובדי הניקיון שהיו מעורבים גם כן נחקרו באזהרה. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
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