| Revision as of 23:08, 21 May 2013 editTariqabjotu (talk | contribs)Administrators36,354 edits →My edit: + replies← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:11, 22 May 2013 edit undoSepsis II (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,988 edits →My editNext edit → | ||
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| :<blockquote>Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv.</blockquote> | :<blockquote>Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv.</blockquote> | ||
| :There is no qualifier there, where ''a word (as an adjective) or word group that limits or modifies the meaning of another word (as a noun) or word group''. ''Proclaimed'' is being used as a verb, not an adjective; the source says ''Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital'', not ''Jerusalem is Israel's proclaimed capital''. If we want to use the word ''qualifier'', I suggest someone find some sources that actually used qualifiers (e.g. a source that says the latter formulation) after briefly listing Jerusalem as the capital. This is probably difficult to find. So, instead, I feel the summary should be reworded to something like "''elaborate to say'' that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally", which I ultimately believe was the original intention of the statement anyway. -- ''']''' 23:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC) | :There is no qualifier there, where ''a word (as an adjective) or word group that limits or modifies the meaning of another word (as a noun) or word group''. ''Proclaimed'' is being used as a verb, not an adjective; the source says ''Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital'', not ''Jerusalem is Israel's proclaimed capital''. If we want to use the word ''qualifier'', I suggest someone find some sources that actually used qualifiers (e.g. a source that says the latter formulation) after briefly listing Jerusalem as the capital. This is probably difficult to find. So, instead, I feel the summary should be reworded to something like "''elaborate to say'' that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally", which I ultimately believe was the original intention of the statement anyway. -- ''']''' 23:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC) | ||
| ::It was only kept out by Mr S. because he didn't like the absoluteness of "no", so I have come up with a suitable alternative to make that 'no' less absolute. | |||
| ::I also removed the "the status as capital was achieved" bit because if the status of capital was achieved that would mean that the city is now the capital, an idea only shared by a very small minority. So I changed it to just say that sources elaborate on the city's status in prose. ] (]) 01:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 01:11, 22 May 2013
General note
Looks interesting. thanks for all your work on this. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
My edit
I agree that looks poor, but what was there before was gave extreme undue weight to the source"s" and only showed one example (disguised as "many souces") from one side, and nothing from the other side. Sepsis II (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to that change although I understand your concern about statements without evidence, but I think that statement was always meant to be a summary of a large number of sources that have been looked at over the years. Having said that, your concern there appears to be somewhat asymmetric given that you didn't alter 'In prose, objective sources...'. I think what the original statement is intended to convey is that some sources (I'm not sure of the extent and probably tertiary) say "Capital: Jerusalem" in their equivalent of infoboxes (when there is little room for nuance) but in prose, even in the same sources, they elaborate. My concerns aren't quite the same as yours. I don't think the 'consider it correct to ' should be there or perhaps the 'objective' either but we are so close to the RfC that I would rather leave the original wording than mess with it if there is a risk of starting a fire. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- I would also support the change to 'objective'. If someone wants to they can add more sources to make 'many sources' a true statement though I would then add more sources that leave the capital of Israel as blank to keep as far as I know, the real life occurance in balance. Sepsis II (talk) 21:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that consider it correct to and objective are superfluous and should be removed. -- tariqabjotu 23:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, this isn't going to work for me. Alongside your addition of a statement that was removed, this looks bad.
- You keep re-adding the statement No news agency with a guideline for neutral reporting allows Jerusalem to be reported as the capital of Israel., even though it was removed in accordance with Step 3, Question 2. Why is that back in the RfC, at the top no less? It seems like a very generous summary of the sources it references and it misses the problems with relying on news sources (which have been raised multiple times).
- As for this other summary you keep editing, no other summary resorts to such ridiculous levels of precision. Heck, even the second half of your proposed rewording doesn't. You feel the need to specify what the Government of Canada (a source you unilaterally introduced) and the CIA do specifically. But, you're okay with saying that objective sources "often use qualifiers" in prose with just one source to back that up. Interesting.
- If the problem truly is that the there aren't enough sources to back the statement "many" (an understandable concern), I would gladly furnish some more (like the multitude of encyclopedias that take the same approach). But butchering the wording to obfuscate the central point of the statement is not acceptable.
- And the one source used to support the second half of the summary is not appropriate. The CIA Factbook does not use a qualifier when describing Israel's capital status. The CIA Factbook states:
Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv.
- There is no qualifier there, where a qualifier is a word (as an adjective) or word group that limits or modifies the meaning of another word (as a noun) or word group. Proclaimed is being used as a verb, not an adjective; the source says Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital, not Jerusalem is Israel's proclaimed capital. If we want to use the word qualifier, I suggest someone find some sources that actually used qualifiers (e.g. a source that says the latter formulation) after briefly listing Jerusalem as the capital. This is probably difficult to find. So, instead, I feel the summary should be reworded to something like "elaborate to say that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally", which I ultimately believe was the original intention of the statement anyway. -- tariqabjotu 23:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- It was only kept out by Mr S. because he didn't like the absoluteness of "no", so I have come up with a suitable alternative to make that 'no' less absolute.
- I also removed the "the status as capital was achieved" bit because if the status of capital was achieved that would mean that the city is now the capital, an idea only shared by a very small minority. So I changed it to just say that sources elaborate on the city's status in prose. Sepsis II (talk) 01:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)