Revision as of 19:41, 15 August 2013

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Clarification and amendment request: Argentine history

Initiated by Lecen (talk) at 19:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Lecen (initiator)
• MarshalN2

Statement by Lecen

Clarification

According to "proposed decision" on the Argentine History case "his dispute primarily involves allegations of POV-pushing and other poor user conduct by certain editors editing Juan Manuel de Rosas and related articles. The disputes among those editors extends to many articles related to the history of Latin America". User MarshalN20 had "engaged in tendentious editing and battleground conduct" and was thus "banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the history of Latin America, broadly construed across all namespaces" (emphasis added). See here, here and here.

As far as I know, MarshalN20 was banned because he and Cambalachero had been using Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists a sources. Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists are regarded by mainstream historiography as Anti-semitic Fascists whose books were pieces of political propaganda published in the 1930s and 1940s. See here.

The problem is that since then MarshalN20 has argued over and over that he has no idea why he was topic banned. In fact, he has claimed that he was topic banned because he made a move request on Paraguayan War (War of the Triple Alliance), which has no relation to Juan Manuel de Rosas nor to Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists. A few examples:

• "Why is it that I have been stamped with 'tendentious editing' and 'battleground editing' supported by admittedly weak diffs? What made these accusations, and the attached topic bans, better than a simple WP:TROUT (warning)?" (see here)
• "I would wholeheartedly appreciate knowing what it is that you think I did wrong and should not do again. All I ever hear back from arbitrators is a sense of 'you know what you did wrong'...but I honestly don't know what (other than my behavior in the move request) else I did that should not be done again" (see here)
• " But, you were there, and know that the move request was filled with Brazilian/Portuguese editors... What bothers me the most is that you also received the punishment for no other reason than having a different point of view from the other editor. It's completely ludicrous!" (see here)

I'd like to see clarified: were MarshalN20 and Cambalachero topic banned because they used Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists as sources? If not, why were they topic banned?

Amendment

The proposed decision was published on 23 June 2013. Since then I had a hard time trying to move on. MarshalN20 hasn't stopped talking about Juan Manuel de Rosas and myself:

• On 25 June 2013 MarshalN20 published a long rant against me on NuclearWarfare's talk page, where he also dealt with Rosas' article. See here and here. Although it was a blatant violation of the topic ban, nothing happened to MarshalN20.
• On 28 June 2013 I went to the Request for Enforcement page to complain that MarshalN20 was trying to continue meddling on Juan Manuel de Rosas' article through indirect ways. Nothing was done of it. See here.
• On 30 June 2013 MarshalN20 published another long rant against me, now on Cambalachero's talk page, where he called me a "troll". See here.
• On 10 July 2013 User The ed17 went to the Request for Enforcement page to complain that MarshalN20 was trying to continue meddling on Juan Manuel de Rosas' article through indirect ways. Nothing happened. See here.
• On 23 July 2013 MarshalN20 requested an amendment to Argentine History. I made one statement asking the Arbitrators to think carefully before accepting his request (see here).
• On 31 July 2013 MarshalN20 said "Lecen continues to cast aspersions about me (accusing me of using Fascist sources & sponsoring political proganda". The link he provided was my statement to his request for amendment. I patiently replied, explaining that he had been topic banned because he had used Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists (who were anti-semitic fascists and whose books were pieces of political propaganda) as sources. He said he was not topic banned forever (which he was) and that it had nothing to do with the use of Argentine Nationalists/Revisioniosts (which, as far as I know, it had). Nowhere during the entire conversation I was rude, aggressive or ironic. In the end, User:User:Salvio giuliano said that, for all purposes, we were both banned from interacting with each other. i gladly accepted. See here.
• On 12 August 2013 MarshalN20 replied to User:AGK. He wrote one long rant against me and again dealth with Juan Manuel de Rosas. See here. Nowhere in AGK' message to MarshalN20 did he mention my name of Rosas article. Why MarshalN20 would mention both on his reply? Again MarshalN20 violated the topic ban but nothing happened to him. There is no excuse to attack me knowing that I could never reply due to the interaction ban. Even less when he did to an Arbitrator. Regardless, many hours later MarshalN20 removed the piece of text that deal with Rosas article, although he left the part where he asked AGK to continue the conversation through e-mail. MarshalN20 also excused the rant against me saying that there was no "formal" interaction ban ("Salvio suggested that if the 'informal' (ie, suggestion) he provided did not work, then he would file a request for a formal interaction ban"). Actually, Salvio giuliano was pretty much clear: "please consider yourselves informally banned from interacting with each other".

I dont believe anything will be done regarding MarshalN20' continuous topic ban violations. However, I'd like to request a formal amendment for permanent interaction ban. And, if possible, to declare that MarshalN20 cannot speak about me anywhere unless if requested by an arbitrator or administrator. The same may apply to me if the Arbcom wishes. What I want is simple: to be left alone. That's all.

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Clarification request: Argentine history

Initiated by Cambalachero (talk) at 03:56, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Cambalachero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Cambalachero

In the case Argentine history I have been topic banned from all pages related to the history of Latin America. I also edit articles on modern politics, and I want to know how much back in time can I go before politics turn into history. I asked it to NuclearWarfare (here, he told me that the last 15 years would be acceptable, but advised as well to clarify this, to avoid misunderstandings. My idea would be to work with the presidency of Néstor Kirchner (2003-2007) and the presidency of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007-today), and the events that took place in them. More or less, the last decade.

I may also work with articles that are clearly not historical, but may need to mention a small detail about history. For example, when I wrote about the actor Roberto Carnaghi (which I wrote before the ban), I mentioned a historical period and something that was going on by then, without much detail, to describe his character in a telenovela. If I work with articles on heavy metal bands, I may need to point the censorship they received during the military government, or their problems during the 1989 or 2001 economic crisis. In those cases, if the description is kept short and to the point, only the basic info needed for the non-historical article, would it be acceptable?

By the way, contrary to the misplaced comments of another user, I'm not requesting any amendment to the ban, just a clarification on the actual extension of the current ban. Cambalachero (talk) 23:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

As for dates, the usual turning points in contemporary Argentine history are 1983 (end of military regime and return of democracy), 1989 (hyperinflation, fall of Alfonsín, and begin of Menemism) and 2001 (new economic and political crisis, fall of De la Rúa); sometimes 2001 is mentioned in conjuction with 2003 (begin of Kirchnerism). Those are the natural turning points, easier to work with than if we set a random date from out of the blue. I once organized Argentine history by periods and used the 1983-present period as the last one (see {{ARGhistperiodFooter}} and Category:History of Argentina by period), nobody ever complained about it.

I rarely work with the modern politics of other South American countries, only when there's some event in the current news that is so important that it becomes eligible for the "in the news" section of the main page (such as the death of Hugo Chávez, or the impeachment of Fernando Lugo), and my interest goes away once the news become yesterday's news. If the limit is set simply on the bilateral relations of Argentina at whatever administrations are acceptable to work with, that would be fine for me. Cambalachero (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: Raúl Alfonsín began his mandate as president on December 10, 1983. That day the National Reorganization Process ended. When we say "1983" in this discussion, we are saying that date, December 10 of 1983. I hope this precision helps. Cambalachero (talk) 02:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Statement by MarshalN20

This is a much-discussed topic in the field. However, colleagues and professors alike often consider anything starting from 1980 (or 1985) to be "contemporary history". I would suggest the arbitrators to not only clarify this but also amend the case with a statement that exempts contemporary history from the topic ban. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 17:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf

I am completely uninvolved with this topic area, but I agree that a clarification is needed. The history of most countries and regions is divided into conventinal eras. If there is a consensus among reliable sources on such conventional eras then the cutoff should be set at one of those. If there is not, then based solely on the present state of the History of South America and History of Argentina articles it would seem that the latest reasonable cut-off date would be 1998 (election of Hugo Chávez). Looking specifically at Argentina, 1983 (end of the military dictatorship) would seem logical and workable. Thryduulf (talk) 18:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Questions for Cambalachero

1. Do you have any date(s) in mind (to any degree of specificity)?
2. I can see two possible opions, a cut-off date that is the same across the continent even that might not be logical in a given country or individual dates for each country that would be more complex to remember and administer. Do you have a preference? If so how strong (i.e. you wouldn't accept your non-preferred choice for $reason)?
3. 1983 for Argentina, and no later than 1998 for the entire continent were my initial thoughts (see immediately above). Do you have comments on those dates?
4. Do you see dates specified just as years (implied as 1 January that year) as working, or do you think an actual date needs noting?

To the arbs: If/when you decide on a date, please be clear whether that date is inclusive or exclusive of the range covered by the ban. Thryduulf (talk) 00:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• When I voted on the original case, I was concerned that the topic-ban might be somewhat overbroad (other arbitrators did not agree). I agree that some clarification is in order. The relevant cut-off date should be one that reduces the likelihood that the problems identified in the decision will recur. Awaiting any further statements containing reasoned suggestions as to when that would be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Based on the statements above, a ≥1983 stipulation seems workable. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• I agree. As far as Argentina goes, everything after 1983 (with 1983 being included) should be fair game. Salvio 10:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• This is a little specialised for me, so I will abstain and defer to my colleagues on how to dispose of this request. AGK 15:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
• The December date as suggested by Cambalachero seems fine. Just try to skirt away from that as much as you can and I don't anticipate any significant issues. The problems observed by the Committee were quite distant from the Kirchner presidencies, so I wouldn't anticipate any problem working on those articles. NW (Talk) 23:55, 8 August 2013 (UTC)