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Article cross-talk

Use of cross-talk page

There doesn't seem to be much use of the Objectivism cross-talk page lately. I'm the only one who has used it since February. Is it still relevant? --RL0919 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, not a philosopher

Sydney Hook, a noted (conservative) American philosopher, noted elementary errors in Rand's "philosophical" 1962 work "Notes for the New Intellectual" in 1962, including the use of the analytic aPriori statement a=a to derive what Rand resoundingly yet erroneously considered profound, synthetic aPriori truths such as the value of capitalism and of selfishness, which cannot be derived from "a=a" in any way. He kindly, gently, but firmly dismissed Rand's work as being of philosophical utility. A "philosopher" is she or he who enters a conversation with people recognized as philosophers; this recursive, set-theoretic definition of philosopher is the only reasonable definition of one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.88.255.151 (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

There are many sources saying she's not a philosopher, and sources saying she is. Is there some way we can edit to reflect this debate? --Frybread (talk) 09:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

It has been a problem for some time. She is called a philosopher in a limited number of texts (a lot of which are de facto funded by by Randian institutions). There are a limited number of texts that criticise he claims in that respect - Hook is one of several. A lot of these are blog posts as in general very few Philosophers take her seriously as a Philosopher. The main evidence that she is not a philosopher is that she is not mentioned in any major directory or text book covering the field as a whole. Negative evidence is difficult to assess. Personally I think the overall balance makes it clear that the label Philosopher should not be applied here but that resulted in a lot of nastiness and an Arbcom ruling some time ago ----Snowded 10:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I think the editors of the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy will be surprised to learn that they do not cover the field as a whole and are funded by Randian institutions. Den Uyl and Rasmussen will probably also be surprised to hear that they were funded by such institutions (which did not exist at the time they prepared their book). And of course the previous citations used for this point included that venerable Randian institution, The New York Times. The "balance" against all this really needs to be something more than wishful thinking and reading implications into silences, which is what the "many sources saying she's not a philosopher" tend to be. Hook does not say she isn't a philosopher, notwithstanding the claims of the block-evading troll who started this section. --RL0919 (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The Stanford entry is one of a series of essays commissioned as you know. Routledge I would need to see the next. There is little dispute she is largely ignored by Philosphers and criticised even by her followers. She is primarily a novelist not a philosopher ----Snowded 12:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Her novels are also criticized, but that doesn't make her not a novelist. I'm all for being discriminating about sources, but not for inventing seemingly arbitrary new criteria just to exclude sources that say things someone doesn't like. If you want to reject peer reviewed sources with no obvious conflicts of interest, it should be for better reasons than this. --RL0919 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

In general the critics do see her as a bad novelist, but they say so. Philosophers with a few exceptions just ignore her ----Snowded 20:04, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

RL's analogy is totally wrong because the only requirement for being a novelist is having written a novel, but philosophy has objective standards. Even the worst writer in the world is a novelist once they've completed a single, terrible novel. Although an English degree might include classes in novel-writing, you don't need a degree to write a novel or even to get it published. All it takes is basic competence with the language, and you are judged on being creative and subjectively entertaining. It's even ok to make stupid English mistakes, because publishers have copy-editors on staff. It's a bit harder to be a published novelist, although it still doesn't mean being any good, and even harder to make a living at it. Rand succeeded as a novelist.

On the other hand, philosophy has an objective bar based on a certain level of academic competence in the field, which almost always comes from having degrees. Practicing philosophy requires a working knowledge of what has gone before so that you can both avoid the errors of the past and explain views by comparing and contrasting with well-known positions using common terminology. Rand had an open disregard for all philosophy since Aristotle (even though was obviously influenced by Nietzsche) and was criticized for not understanding the views she opposed, rather than (just) for being wrong. Her only degree was in education, and it shows.

No matter how you slice it, Rand was not an academic philosopher, though she does fit into the Russian tradition of novelists with a philosophical bent. She had philosophical ideas which were highly influential in the world at large, but almost entirely ignored by academia. This makes her a professional writer and amateur philosopher. That's not so say she wasn't a philosopher at all or even that her philosophy was bad. It just means that this wasn't her profession and we'd be lying to readers by saying it was. MilesMoney (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

It is a bit odd to refer to debatable criteria such as "competence" and "working knowledge" as "objective standards". Whether someone has a published novel is far easier to evaluate objectively. Regardless, the article does not refer to Rand as an academic or professional philosopher, so we have avoided that problem. --RL0919 (talk) 22:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, now we've avoided it. MilesMoney (talk) 22:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

An evaluation of competence is always going to be subjective. I hope you keep such evalutions away from the introduction, though critisism sections could use them. And the field of philosophy seems too diverse to actually have unified standards. Dimadick (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Dimadick, and more importantly the sources that call her a philosopher do not generally use the qualifier that MilesMoney wants to add. --RL0919 (talk) 05:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

We obviously can't use a qualifier which is not sourced but it still leaves us the WP:WEIGHT issue. The questions of negatives is an issue for Misplaced Pages but at the moment we have three sets of evidence (i) her not being mentioned (ii) her competence to assert the claim being questions (iii) references that use the word. So we need to find a way around that. A note might be a solution and I to be honest the word is easier to use in the body of article not the information box. So use in text with the existing citations OK and there is other material that explains things. The use in the information box, less so. A compromise would be to leave it in the lede, remove it from the info box. ----Snowded 06:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you brought up sources for "amateur", because we do have them. For example, according to this, the The Oxford Companion to Philosophy has Anthony Quinton classifying Rand as an amateur.

Gotta say, I'm not in love with "amateur" but at least it's sourced and it gets across the fact that she's not a philosopher in the sense someone might expect if we didn't qualify the title. Maybe we could search for sources with nicer adjectives, like "non-academic". But we can't just lie by omission. MilesMoney (talk) 07:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

All righty, I confirmed that page 740 of that book does call her an amateur philosopher. If we want to avoid that term, we could also use the same reference to justify calling her a popular philosopher, which sounds nicer but might be confused with being a philosopher who's popular, as opposed to an advocate of popular (amateur) philosophy. For now, I'm going to put "amateur" back in as a placeholder, but I'll add a citation so RL has nothing to complain about. It's up to him to find a better term that's still honest. MilesMoney (talk) 07:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

One last thing. I'm betting RL or someone with his views might argue that Anthony Quinton is some sort of strange fringe voice. That would be pretty silly, even from a glance at his background, but William F. Vallicella provides another vote for "amateur". On the other hand, I haven't been able to find any source claiming she was either a "professional" or "academic" philosopher, so we have to go with what we've got. MilesMoney (talk) 07:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I lied: one more thing. Snowded mentioned Rand's omission from comprehensive summaries of philosophers. I noticed that, on page x of The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, the editor specifically mentions deciding not to grant her an article in the book because he has standards. This just screams "not an (academic) philosopher". MilesMoney (talk) 08:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarilly. Perhaps its my frustration with certain "peer-reviewed" sources of low quality speaking, but I have often had trouble with supposedly comprehensive lists and reviews which ommit all but the most famous female writers, rulers, and other historical figures. As an editor interested in women's history its quite a pet peeve. It screams bias Dimadick (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No, there are enough female philosophers included to rule out the idea that Rand was excluded just for being a woman. Instead, the editor reveals that he quite intentionally turned down a proposed article on Rand because it "did not penetrate fortress of philosophical principle", a coy way of saying they just didn't measure up to his standards. The other article mentioned as failing on this basis is "marital act", which was presumably about sex, not a particularly philosophical topic. MilesMoney (talk) 10:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I just checked the reference which does make it explicit that she was not included. That is the first reference in a very authoritative work that says she is not a philosopher. As I say the best thing is to remove it from the information box and leave it as a qualified text in the main body? ----Snowded 08:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Between Routledge and the Oxford Companion, I believe there's strong support for the conclusion that she is not significant as a philosopher (at least within the circles of academic philosopher as opposed to popular philosophy) and is not a professional or academic philosopher at all, but an amateur one. Since she's not a philosopher by profession, I don't see why any mention of it should be made in her Occupation in the information box.

At the very least, it's completely misleading because a reader might reasonably expect that, like "regular" philosophers, she had a comprehensive, as opposed to idiosyncratic and eclectic, education in philosophy, and that she was seen by other philosophers as qualified to teach accredited courses on the subject. That's certainly what comes to my mind when I think of "philosopher", and I doubt I'm alone in this.

I think the best counterargument would be that the Nathaniel Branden Lectures were a school that taught Objectivism. However, Objectivist movement says, "Not wanting to be a teacher or leader of an organized movement, she allowed Branden to lecture on her behalf." Despite this, we list Branden's occupation as "Psychotherapist", not "Philosopher". Of course, it doesn't help that NBL was unaccredited. MilesMoney (talk) 09:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, the first think that comes to mind when I hear philosopher is a Sophist charging money to supposedly teach virtue and wisdom. Followed by the image of a Scholastic philosopher trying to make sense of contradictory dogmas and doctrines. 21st-century individuals are simply not what I picture as philosophers. Dimadick (talk) 12:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

All the text above notwithstanding, the source recently added (which has been discussed on this talk page before, BTW) does not in fact use the term "amateur philosopher" to describe Rand. The snipe from the editor's introduction does not use this phrase, and neither does the article on "popular philosophy" (the page 740 citation, which is offered without the courtesy of credit to the author). The latter does imply that she created an "amateur system" but doesn't call Rand, or anyone else, "amateur philosopher". Perhaps this is a quirk of the author's writing choices, but it is a fact of the plain text. So the basis for this particular phrasing is thin to say the least, particularly when the qualifier is not used by several other sources that are already cited. What is particularly ironic is that the cited article implicitly affirms Rand's classification as a philosopher (albeit not a professional one, which no one in this discussion has claimed) -- something that this thread started as an attempt to deny.

If qualifiers are needed, the best-supported one is "popular philosopher" (an alternative mentioned above by MilesMoney). This phrase -- the literal phrase, not an inference of it -- is used in sources. Even the source added to prop up "amateur" designates amateur philosophy as a sub-class of popular philosophy. The phrase is already used in the body of the article, with a source, so it would also conform to WP:LEAD, which tells us that the lead should summarize material from the body rather than include significant information not found in the body. --RL0919 (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No, that argument doesn't even begin to fly and only makes me wonder about how WP:COMPETENT you are. The source says she's an amateur, plain and simple. No amount of hairsplitting original research on your part is going to explain away how an amateur philosophy comes from anyone but an amateur philosopher. Oh, and the citation you removed was for Honderich's comment on page x, not just Quinton's on 740, so that's another error on your part.

Regardless, I'm not going to dote on your systemtic mistakes. Instead, I'm going to remind you that I suggested "popular" but also had reservations that you failed to address. Right now, it sounds as if she's a philosopher who happened to be popular, as opposed to the writer of popular (amateur) philosophy, so the article is lying again. That just won't do. MilesMoney (talk) 05:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I return to my idea of removing from information box (as it really can't be justified) but keep in the main body with a proper explanation of the different views.----Snowded 06:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's how it is now. The box calls her a writer and mentions that philosophy is her subject. By the way, the Routeledge entry is available, with hostile commentary, here. MilesMoney (talk) 06:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "popular philosopher" is almost always used to indicate a writer of popular philosophy, as philosophers who are popular are remarkably rare. Regardless, a phrase that has more than one interpretation is not "lying", especially when the phrasing comes directly from multiple sources, as it does (more on that below). The claim that "The source says she's an amateur" is pure confirmation bias. There are currently six sources cited around her being a philosopher. Four call her "philosopher" with no qualifier. One calls her a "popular philosopher". The fifth, which you wish to focus on exclusively, indicates she was an amateur, but does not use the phrase "amateur philosopher" and also places "amateur" as a sub-category of "popular". I was able to quickly find five seven additional uses of "popular philosopher" in respectable sources (reference works, journal articles and books from academic publishers):

• The Encyclopedia of Ethics (published by Taylor & Francis and edited by Lawrence C. Becker) calls her a "novelist and philosopher" in the first sentence of its entry for her, then later says "many intellectuals continued to dismiss her as a reactionary popular philosopher".
• The entry for her in the long-running American Writers reference series says, "No longer merely a best-selling novelist, Rand quickly became a popular philosopher."
• Atlas Shrugged: Manifesto of the Mind by Mimi Reisel Gladstein says that novel "ended her career as a novelist and launched Rand as a popular philosopher".
• Above the Bottom Line: An Introduction to Business Ethics (written by Robert C. Solomon and Clancy Martin, published by Wadsworth Publishing Company) refers to her as "The popular philosopher of 'the virtue of selfishness'".
• The 2008 article "Just Deserts: Ayn Rand and the Christian Right" (written by Cynthia Burack and published in Journal of Religion and Popular Culture), says "Rand is renowned as a best-selling author, a popular philosopher, and a guru who created her own system of thought and her own cult of personality."
• Another from Burack (this time co-authored): an introduction to a special issue of New Political Science which calls her "novelist and popular philosopher". Online and ungated here.
• In "The Challenge of Objectivist Ethics", an article in the International Journal of Applied Philosophy, Benedict Sheehy proclaims that "Rand’s influence as a novelist and popular philosopher can hardly be overstated. She is without doubt, America’s most popular, popular philosopher."

We should follow the sources, plural, not just the one that says what you prefer. --RL0919 (talk) 16:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your original research, but I'm going to stick with our sources.

We all agree that Rand is a popular philosopher, but our sources identify three different meanings for "popular" in this context and then specify that the relevant meaning is "amateur".

Every source that calls her "popular" is just supporting the conclusion that we need to call her "amateur". MilesMoney (talk) 02:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Searching for additional sources and citations does not constitute "original research". Some of these sources may help with the specific sections on philosophy, reception, and legacy. Not just the introduction. Dimadick (talk) 07:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

RL's misinterpretation of the sources is the original research. Logically, since amateur philosophy is a subcategory of popular philosophy, no amount of sources identifying Rand as a popular philosopher can contradict her status as an amateur philosopher. On the other hand, we have sources which specifically identify her as not just a popular philosopher, but as an amateur.

Now, I want this article to be completely fair and I'm still not in love with "amateur" because of its connotations. As that source points out, there were centuries of only amateur philosophers, and it's no insult to call them amateurs. On the other hand, "popular" is not only imprecise, but misleading, so it won't do.

I'm not here to either bury Rand or praise her, so I'd be happy to replace "amateur" with something that gets the same idea across but is nicer to Rand. One way might be to define her in terms of what she's not: "non-professional" or "non-academic". The positive is that "amateur" could mean either non-professional or unprofessional, so the former avoids this misunderstanding. In the same way, "non-academic" makes it clear that she has no degrees and isn't recognized by the community of philosophers, which is also accurate. What do you think? MilesMoney (talk) 14:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This isn't going to appeal to her fanbase, but I did find a way we could use "popular" or something close to it. Sciabarra writes:

Academics have often dismissed her ideas as "pop" philosophy.

Unlike "popular philosopher", which makes her sound just popular, not amateur (or the other two meanings), "pop philosopher" makes it clear that she was both popular and amateur. However, while it's accurate, I'm not sure how flattering it is. On the other hand, it's not our job to flatter. MilesMoney (talk) 14:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

To describe the use of the exact phrase found in multiple cited sources ("popular philosopher") as "original research" and "misinterpretation" is ridiculous, especially when you keep adding an alternative phrase ("amateur philosopher") that is used in none of the cited sources. Also, the term "popular" is not misleading in any way, since in comparison to most philosophers who get little notice from the general public, Rand is quite popular. But "non-academic" could work -- there is support in sources for the phrasing, including The Oxford Handbook of the History of Political Philosophy, Contemporary Women Philosophers, and several others. It is also decidedly neutral, having no opinion-based coloring that might be found in some other terms. "Non-professional", on the other hand, has no support, and it would be misleading because it suggests Rand wasn't getting paid for her non-fiction work, when in fact she was. This is also a possible implication of "amateur" that makes it misleading in comparison with "popular" or "non-academic".

I think there is something more that needs to be taken from the sources: several of the sources brought up in this discussion make a point of the change in Rand's career, going from mostly writing fiction to writing non-fiction exclusively. The last 15-20 years of her career was not the same as what went before. This change is mentioned in the body of the article and is clear enough biographically. I would suggest a more substantial rewording of the lead to take account of this career division. I propose we say something like the following: she was "a Russian-born American novelist, playwright, and screenwriter, who later in her career became a non-academic philosopher and essayist." ("Essayist" has support in sources also, although the term is so obviously applicable I would hope it doesn't require another raft of footnotes.) Thoughts from others? --RL0919 (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem here is that the Oxford Companion tells us that "popular philosophy" has at least three distinct meanings, and common sense adds a fourth as a foreseeable misinterpretation. Fortunately, it removes any ambiguity by specifically identifying "amateur" as the meaning of "popular" in this context. Now, if you want to argue that the other sources mean it in some other way, you're going to fail, since neither of the other two meanings is even plausible. By exclusion, every source that calls her a popular philosopher is necessarily supporting her being an amateur one. As a result, showing us sources that call her popular only strengthens the argument for amateur. Refute this or accept it. MilesMoney (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Just because you interpret a phrase in a particular way does not mean that is what the author meant. Sheehy, in particular, is very clear about meaning both "popular" as in non-academic and "popular" as in well-known. So your belief that it isn't plausible for any of the sources to mean this is provably wrong. --RL0919 (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Your premises cannot lead to your conclusion. If a usage of "popular" refers to how many books she's sold, then it's irrelevant. If it doesn't, then it's calling her an amateur.

Anyhow, you're wrong in a few other ways because you're sloppy and can't read. The Oxford Companion lists three meanings for popular philosophy, none of which are about having lots of readers. So, once again, you get everything wrong. You are not WP:COMPETENT, much less WP:NPOV. MilesMoney (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The 3 footnotes after "amateur" contain 10 references. Do each of these 10 references use the term "amateur" to describe Rand? If not, then it is improper to conflate the description of Rand by using any of them which uses the term, with the others that do not. WP:RS says "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article." . (This guidance applies whether or not editors consider the term "amateur" to be positive or negative.) This does not mean "some of the sources should support". If there are particular sources that describe Rand as an amateur, those sources can be cited (preferably with quotes) later in the article. Including this term in the lede (without proper sourcing) is UNDUE. – S. Rich (talk) 16:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Srich, have you read the Oxford Companion entry? MilesMoney (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The question is not whether I've read something. The question is whether we are conflating the sources. I agree that "popular" is a vague and poorly chosen word to use when describing Rand. Perhaps using the term "philosophical fiction writer" would work. – S. Rich (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Even in the information box, we classify her as a novelist who wrote about philosophical topics, but RL is right about her career shifting towards essays about her amateur philosophy. The problem is that any use of "popular" will mislead readers into thinking we're just saying she sold a lot of books, which is incidentally true but irrelevant. I could write popular philosophy while being an unpopular writer. In addition to many sources that refer to her "popular philosophy", which is ambiguous in four different ways, we have an extremely good source which has an article on the subject of popular philosophy and uses Rand as an example of amateur philosophy, in as many words. No conflation is required here. That's why I asked you if you read it. If you didn't, say so and I'll dump quotes here. MilesMoney (talk) 17:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

To answer the question asked: Of the 10 cited references, five (Den Uyl & Rasmussen, Sciabarra, Kukathas, Burns, and Badhwar & Long) use the term "philosopher" without a qualifier. Four (Sheehy, Gladstein, Younkins, Baker) say "popular philosopher". (I would also note that in some cases, a source might use a qualifier in one place and no qualifier or a different qualifier elsewhere in the text.) None of these sources uses the phrase "amateur philosopher", but Quinton discusses her in a context that makes it clear that is how he categorizes her. Since all of these sources support "philosopher", removing that word would be entirely out of line (and it has been discussed ad nausem in the past). I'm open to the use of a qualifier as quite a few sources do use some sort of qualifier. "Popular" is a one specifically cited in the body of the article, but others used in reliable sources (not all cited currently) include "non-academic", "public", and "pop". The last is specifically described by sources as being the view of critics, so emphasizing it in the lead would be non-neutral. "Popular" is used by sources from a variety of POVs, possibly because it is ambiguous. As noted above, I'm fine with "non-academic", which seems very neutral and says something clear and meaningful. "Public" is also neutral, but doesn't seem very informative. --RL0919 (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney, it is not a question of conflation being "required". Rather, conflation is to be avoided. As per the reference count by RL0919, we do not have sufficient basis to use the term "amateur". (Even if it were a 1/9 or 9/10 split, we should avoid the terms "popular" and "amateur" because of their vagueness.) In any event, how many "professional philosophers" are out there in the world? University professors would qualify, but do they typically describe themselves as professional philosophers? Well, here is some interesting reading on the idea. . – S. Rich (talk) 18:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Since you seem not to have the Oxford Companion handy, I posted a section about it at the bottom of this page. You should read it.

How many professional gynecologists are there? All of them, right? If I was an amateur gynecologist, then I wouldn't be a gynecologist at all, just some strange perv. And to be a professional, I'd need the academic background. It's the same with philosophers: unless otherwise specified, we assume it's a professional with relevant academic degrees. MilesMoney (talk) 18:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I want to go back to what I suggested before, that we could say something like: she was "a Russian-born American novelist, playwright, and screenwriter, who later in her career became a non-academic philosopher and essayist." Does anyone object to "non-academic" as a description? I already noted multiple sources using this term, which could be added to the cited sources. --RL0919 (talk) 03:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

RL's suggestion looks good. Thanks to MilesMoney for the amateur gyn remark -- it was a LOL moment. – S. Rich (talk) 04:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I prefer amateur, it is closer to 'largely ignored' (which is reality) than non-academic which would be a very modern phrase anyway. ----Snowded 06:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"Amateur" doesn't have enough support in sources to stand in the lead. (As often happens, this discussion is overly lead-focused -- we should be incorporating the relevant POVs in body.) I'm not sure I understand your concern about "non-academic" being "very modern". Philosophy was an academic profession during Rand's lifetime. It's not like we are imposing a distinction on some ancient figure who predates professional academia. --RL0919 (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

This discussion really deals as to whether or not the words "amateur" and/or "popular" should be in the lede. And I note there is a lot of dispute/opinion on the basic question as to whether or not AR and Objectivism are philosophic/philosophers/a philosophy. With this in mind, I think the best WP approach to the lede is to follow guidance in WP:LEDE. In writing it, we've got to consider NPOV, the most important aspects of the topics, and any prominent controversies. For the most part the lede works well. But the 3rd paragraph needs work. While AR's fiction may have been "poorly received", the fact that The Fountainhead (film) was filmed by King Vidor is significant, but ignored. Also, book sales increased markedly in later years. So, I recommend that the first sentence be broken up into two parts. First cover some of the specific literary criticisms and praise, and popularity of her works. Next we add remarks about how academia has accepted/rejected her ideas – using the terms "popular", "amateur", and "whatever". – S. Rich (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

No, there's universal agreement that Objectivism constitutes a philosophical system of some sort. There's some disagreement about whether it's any good, but that's another matter entirely. Likewise, Ayn Rand is some sort of philosopher. The question, in both cases, is what sort. Not academic, certainly. Popular, in the sense of having many supporters, sure. Popular, in the sense of being amateur, sure. These are important aspects that we can't ignore.

I'm ok with some of RL's suggestion, where we say she started off as a novelist/screenwriter/etc. and then segued into philosophical essays and speeches. I'm not ok with using the ambiguous "popular" when we really mean amateur. I'm also not ok with ignoring the fact that her writing was initially very unpopular, meaning nobody liked it. It's not enough for what we say to be accurate, it has to give an accurate impression. MilesMoney (talk) 02:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I notice you are still arguing against "popular", even though others have more recently been discussing the alternative of "non-academic", which is supported by at least 6 sources (I put three into the article in my last edit) and is 100% clear and non-misleading. But I see you've chose to revert in favor of the specific term "amateur", which is supported by 1 source and is misleading because it suggests Rand wasn't writing her philosophical essays as her career (which she was for about 20 years). Would you like to explain what your objection is to "non-academic"? --RL0919 (talk) 03:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Look, either you're not WP:COMPETENT or you're lying. Every source that describes her as a popular philosopher (and doesn't just mean she had lots of fans) is supporting the idea that she was an amateur. You keep skipping over this as if nobody's gonna notice. Well, guess what, someone noticed.

I know a web site that calls her popular, but is honest about it. It says:

"Also, Objectivism is a "popular" philosophy, which originated in the writings of novelist with no formal background as an academic philosopher."

See how it explains that what sense "popular" is intended and even puts in in quotes to make sure nobody mistakes it for "lots of fans"? That's the sort of honesty we need here. Why are you against this sort of honesty when you wrote that quote? MilesMoney (talk) 03:53, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Weasel words in the lead

This edit by Medeis changed the wording of the lead, with the apparent goal of putting a more positive spin on how philosophers and literary critics reacted to Rand. It should be reverted, per WP:WEASEL. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree it should be reverted, although I don't know that WP:WEASEL is the reason. "During her life" is just wrong as a qualifier, since the qualified remark is still true after her death. "With some exceptions" is true, but already absorbed earlier in the sentence where it says "generally" (not "universally"). Poorly vs. hostilely is a subtle difference, but "poorly" is more general and therefore I think more correct, since not every negative review was openly hostile. The "often for non-literary reasons" part is intuitively correct from reading the reviews, but it is not in the source that is currently cited, so to keep it would require an additional source -- preferably a peer-reviewed academic to minimize wrangling about source biases. So definitely revert for now, and perhaps add back the one phrase (or something similar) later if it can be supported with sources. --RL0919 (talk) 19:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

List of people Rand influenced

I was considering the problem of the "Influenced" list in the infobox, which has been discussed on this talk page in the past. There are more people who could be added to the list, but at some point it becomes unwieldy to list them all, not to mention problematic to cite them if her influence on them isn't properly cited in their own articles. I wondered how this was handled for other popular thinkers, so I looked at the infobox for Rand's own idol, Aristotle, one of the most influential thinkers in the history of the world. Seeing what was done there has led me to create a new article, List of people influenced by Ayn Rand. There are about a hundred people listed therein (all bluelinks), with supporting citations. I'm hoping we can use this to both shorten the infobox list and perhaps cut down on the prose discussions of people she has influenced. Let me know what you think. --RL0919 (talk) 07:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Reducing the list here to the really notable would be a blessing. I am less sure of the list itself as there are some potential BLP violations. The fact someone is listed in a book on the "cult" would really need corroboration for example. I suggest a drastic reduction to self-identification of a major influence ----Snowded 10:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

BLP is of course a concern for any article that mentions the living, but limiting to just explicit statements of self-identification creates oddities because not everyone makes public autobiographical statements. So, for example, if we can't find an autobiographical statement by Robert Bidinotto or Peter Schwartz, both of whom have worked for Objectivist organizations, should they be excluded? That seems weird. That's why I went with the three-part statement of inclusion that appears at the top of the list (partially modeled on a similar list at List of thinkers influenced by deconstruction). In most cases additional sources could be provided; I actually tried to limit the number of different sources used to avoid reference overload. --RL0919 (talk) 17:47, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

If they worked for an objectivist institution then there is a case - my point is they are to some thing they said or did which makes it clear, not just someone claiming they were ----Snowded 18:02, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that should be mostly accounted for in the initial list; I tried to avoid any instances that seemed unconfirmed or gossipy. I didn't include some people mentioned by Branden or Merrill for this reason. The Block book is all autobiographical essays and Weiss did one-on-one interviews, so anything referenced to them should be very solid. I used Walker sparingly, although despite the title and tone of the book he was relatively careful about what he said about living individuals. That said, going forward over-inclusion is probably one of the biggest potential problems for the new article, since we have seen here the tendency to name-drop every celebrity who mentions one of her books in an interview. --RL0919 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

OK sounds good, not able to check all the books but assume you have done your work there. Fully agree on name dropping. Suggest we now cull the list on this page to maybe 4/5 and link?----Snowded 21:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I tried, but if any seem dubious I can double-check. Everyone makes mistakes. (In the other direction, I already noticed a couple of omissions.) As for the infobox on this page, I'd be happy if we omitted names from the Influenced list entirely and did something like this:

If folks can live with that, it would short-circuit future wrangles over who is "worthy" to appear in the box. --RL0919 (talk) 23:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that - no one else seems engaged so I suggest you do it!

Aristotelian Philosophers

She certainly liked him (the famous 3As and all that) but to say she was one requires a third party source. So I have deleted the addition of that category ----Snowded 11:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Not too hard to find sources that say this: Edward Younkins says it Philosophers of Capitalism, Thomas Gramstad in Feminist Interpretations of Ayn Rand, David Kelly in The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand, James Sterba in From Rationality to Equality. In The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand, Jack Wheeler argues that Rand is even more Aristotelian than she thought herself. On the other hand, it is not an entirely non-controversial classification: Roderick Long argues that Rand isn't really an Aristotelian in Reason and Value: Aristotle versus Rand. On balance it seems there are more sources saying she is than saying she isn't, with the usual large number of sources that don't discuss the question. YMMV about how one-sided it needs to be to justify a category. --RL0919 (talk) 15:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Exactly its controversial and given that she is hardly taken seriously in main stream philosophical circles the balance (if its there) is understandable. How anyone can read Aristotle on virtue and think that Rand is an Aristotelean I can't understand. I would want to check some of those sources anyway, saying that she was influenced by is not the same thing ----Snowded 16:16, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Sources with quotes and page numbers to facilitate the discussion:

• "I am an Aristotelian." Rand, Letters of Ayn Rand, p. 394
• "Ayn Rand's philosophy is Aristotelianism without Platonism." Peikoff, Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, p. 459
• "Ayn Rand, whose philosophy is a form of Aristotelianism, had the highest admiration for Aristotle ..." Younkins, in Philosophers of Capitalism, p. 82. In the preface, he calls her philosophy "neo-Aristotelian" (p. ix).
• Sterba's section about Rand is titled "Ayn Rand's Aristotelian Alternative" (From Rationality to Equality, p. 94).
• "...Rand is an Aristotelian. Although much of Objectivism (especially its metaphysics) differs significantly from Aristotelian philosophy, Rand falls generally within the Aristotelian tradition..." Smith, Atheism, Ayn Rand, and Other Heresies, p. 191
• Notwithstanding what Smith says, Kelley says her metaphysics is "basically Aristotelian" in The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand, p. 81.
• Burns calls her "neo-Aristotelian" in Goddess of the Market, p. 148.
• Sandefur also calls her "neo-Aristotelian" in an entry on individualism in The Encyclopedia of Libertarianism (p. 241). The Rand entry in that same encyclopedia (by Sciabarra) refers to her "Aristotelian premises" (p. 414).
• In Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical, Sciabarra manages to mention Aristotelianism numerous times without ever quite saying whether Rand was an Aristotelian or not.
• Machan refers to "Aristotelian characteristics" and "Aristotelian-inspired" metaethics in Ayn Rand (pp. 12, 19). He calls her metaethics "neo-Aristotelian" in an essay in Objectivism, Subjectivism, and Relativism in Ethics, p. 116.
• Long says that while her philosophy "proclaims itself a version of Aristotelianism", it takes various positions that "undermine her basically Aristotelian inclinations and sentiments". (Reason and Value, p. 5)

I started this list not particularly caring whether the category was included or not, but after accumulating the material I'm inclined to say it should be there. I also note that the category page says (in text stable since 2006), "This category is for philosophers who have been strongly influenced by Aristotle." That seems to fit Rand. --RL0919 (talk) 22:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Which of those are reliable third party philosophical sources? If those say it OK, otherwise its dubious and even influence has to show some understanding :-) ----Snowded 06:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Add to that the simple fact that she is not universally accepted as a Philosopher and I think we need something that is third party and authoritative ----Snowded 11:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I hope you don't want to turn this into a reprise of the lopsided "philosopher" dispute. Only one of the sources above is Rand herself, so most are "third party", but I expect that isn't what you really mean. Sterba and Burns are non-Objectivist academics writing in books published by a prestigious university press. Machan and Younkins wrote in peer-reviewed academic essay collections. To the sources above I can now add the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on Rand by Chandran Kukathas, and an essay by John C. Merrill in Ethical Communication: Moral Stances in Human Dialogue. Both are non-Objectivist academics. So even if you dismiss everyone who is an Objectivist or even "Objectivish", that's at least four peer-reviewed sources. --RL0919 (talk) 16:39, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The issue of how do you prove a negative on Misplaced Pages is well illustrated by the "philosopher" issue, no idea why its "lopsided". Not sure the Burns quote counts, Sterba possibly. Long would be a contra argument and I own up to that being my sentiment. Routledge is more the sort of source I was looking for. If that is unambiguous (unlike Sterba) it could be enough ----Snowded 22:51, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

oh my god ......you guys are still fighting over Ayn Rand. its been like 4 years since i last checked in. i guess everyone needs a hobby. Brushcherry (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)brushcherry

The use of Sciabarra's "Transcript" article as a source

I have a question on the use of Sciabarra's 1999 JARS' article "The Rand Transcript". The article is used several times, mostly for very innocuous information. However, as I was reading the second edition of Essays on Ayn Rand's We The Living (ed. Robert Mayhew, 2012), I came across this very interesting critique of Sciabarra's source by Shoshana Milgram (p108-110, notes 26 and 32). Milgram makes several arguments as to why Sciabarra's analysis is problematic. Since the article only cites Sciabarra for evidence that Rand studied Plato and Aristotle in college, I don't have a problem with the citation per se. But I'm wondering if it's more intellectually honest or whatever to cite Milgram's article in conjunction with Sciabarra's? (In any case, the citation for the Mayew essay anthology should probably be updated with the information for the second edition as it incorporates three new articles.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brandonk2009 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 6 May 2013‎

What claims in the article would Milgram's piece be cited in support of, and why? The notes you mention above relate to matters that aren't discussed anywhere in this article, so there would be no reason to cite Milgram in relation to them. As to the book citation, we ought to be citing the edition used to source the material, regardless of what the most recent edition is. To change the edition, someone should review the four instances where it is cited to confirm that the text still supports the claims and that page numbers haven't changed, updating the citations if needed. Otherwise we will have a mismatch. --RL0919 (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the notes I pointed to in particular cite problems with Sciabarra's 1999 analysis of Rand's transcripts. His article is used to back up very innocuous facts, such as Rand's introduction to Aristotle and Plato (note 14). As such, it's not really a problem. However, Milgram's article supports the exact same fact with additional and up-to-date scholarship. The article could reflect that--or it doesn't need to. Brandon K (talk) 21:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"un" or "less"?

In this sentence, "After two early novels that were initially less successful, she achieved fame with her 1943 novel The Fountainhead...", the mistaken impression is that there were "more" successful novels that preceeded AR's two early novels. I suggest that you replace "less successful" with "unsuccessful"; it's accurate and succinct. Autodidact1 (talk) 01:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

What it says now is that "We the Living" and "Anthem" were unsuccessful in America, moderately successful elsewhere. For the first, "Initial sales were slow and the American publisher let it go out of print, although European editions continued to sell". The second, "initially could not find an American publisher". MilesMoney (talk) 03:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Input for Night of January 16th

I have been working recently on the Night of January 16th article, with the thought of nominating it for good article status. Since this page has a lot more watchers than that one, many of whom are familiar with Rand's works and perhaps that play in particular, I'm hoping others can take a look and see if there are further improvements needed before moving forward. Thanks in advance for any input. --RL0919 (talk) 22:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

For anyone watching, I've opened a peer review request for the article. No feedback yet after the first week. --RL0919 (talk) 17:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Rand on discrimination

An editor has been attempting to edit the description of Rand's statements about homosexuality into a more general statement that she had views "opposing laws against private-sector discrimination while also opposing public-sector discrimination" (in this edit, for example). First this was done with no source, in the process mistakenly suggesting the information may have come from the source previously cited for Rand's views on homosexuality. When challenged for a source, it was re-done with a source borrowed from the Objectivism and homosexuality article. There are a couple of problems here. Most important, the cited source still does not support the text. It says nothing about homosexuality or gay rights, and only briefly alludes to discrimination without explicitly stating any view Rand had on the subject. Second, the mention of Rand's views on this subject in this particular article is in a specific biographical context, that of her making controversial statements in public appearances. To fit into the article as it stands, the stated position would not just need to be an accurate (and sourced) representation of her views, but it would need to be a view she stated in a public appearance and which a secondary source had described as controversial. Even if the cited source could be interpreted as representing Rand's views on discrimination (which it doesn't explicitly do), it gives no such biographical context. So I've reverted the change here, and tagged the source as "failed verification" in the Objectivism and homosexuality article. --RL0919 (talk) 01:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Before we talk about sources, let's make sure we got the facts right, so lemme know which ones are off:

1) She opposed public-sector discrimination against gays.

2) She opposed laws interfering with private-sector discrimination against gays.

You run http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/index.html so you should know this stuff, right? And it's not like you've got any sort of conflict of interest or anything... MilesMoney (talk) 07:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Did I say anywhere, "this statement is factually wrong"? My suggestion is that you read WP:VERIFY and WP:TRUTH before proceeding. To play off a common phrase, "sources or it didn't happen". Also please note the concern about biographical context. As for your personal comments, you are also welcome to read WP:COI and then explain specifically what conflict of interest you believe exists, rather than vaguely insinuating that there is one. My talk page is linked in the signature stamp for this comment. --RL0919 (talk) 09:47, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

You know, I've been reading up on policies with names like BLP and RS, and behind all the jibber-jabber, they're here so that we don't post nonsense. If we agree that those two statements are true and we both want this bio to be correct, then we're on the same side. All we gotta do is make sure that we back it up with refs so nobody has any doubts.

Your own site quotes her with "All laws against homosexual acts should be repealed" and "...I do not believe that the government has the right to prohibit it", so that backs up the first.

It also backs up the second by quoting her as opposing laws against private discrimination, even when it means allowing racism, which she despised.

Now, if we didn't say that Rand was against discriminatory laws, we could just stop there. But we do, so we have to add the part about her being opposed to anti-discriminatory laws, otherwise we wind up lying by omission. We can't do that, can we? MilesMoney (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

We omit lots of things, since an encyclopedia article cannot recount every detail of Rand's life and views -- it would be hundreds of pages long. We try to use secondary sources as a guide to what should be included. The portion of the article you have been editing discusses what secondary sources have called out as controversial commentary Rand made in her public appearances. It is not a list of every thing Rand ever thought or that we might infer she thought. To my knowledge, Rand never made any public statements about laws against private anti-gay discrimination. Such laws were rare in Rand's lifetime and arose after she stopped most public speaking, so possibly it just never came up. It is not acceptable for us to infer what she might have thought and claim it as her view.

She did make statements about racism and laws against racial discrimination, which is a different topic from homosexuality. If there is a secondary source that says Rand's public statements on race were controversial, then potentially we could include that in addition to what we now say about her controversial statements on homosexuality and other topics. But we would need a source for that. The two main sources being used now, Burns and Heller, describe no such controversy. --RL0919 (talk) 04:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

In Commando, Arnold lied by saying "I let him go", when he'd just dropped the guy off a cliff. He lied by telling part of the truth. We're not going to do that.

The way it sounds now, Rand opposed discrimination against gays. That's a lie. She opposed any laws pro or con. This means she opposed discrimination by the government but also opposed the government getting in the way of other discrimination.

Now, you already admitted it's true, but now you're flip-flopping like Romney. She said that the government has no business trying to stop discrimination. It's original research by you when you say she only meant racism. In fact, she opposed racism as immoral but still supported the right of racists to discriminate. Since she thought homosexuality was immoral and disgusting, it's sticking your words in her mouth to say she'd make an exception by supporting laws forbidding private discrimination against gays.

I'm going to fix the article. If you want to break the rules, you're going to get in trouble. MilesMoney (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You should worry less about whether I am "flip-flopping" or might "get in trouble" (I got a good chuckle from that), and more more about whether there are sources to support the changes you want to make. There is a difference between what a Misplaced Pages editor might believe and what can be documented using sources. We should not put a claim in the article that Rand made controversial public statements about something that she is not documented as speaking about. To call such restraint "sticking ... words in her mouth" is an Orwellian way to describe the situation. Your latest, much more modest edit is close enough to what the sources say that I don't object, so it may be an acceptable compromise. --RL0919 (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment

This article has been vigorously policed by a Rand fan base that will not continence the inclusion of information they feel "damaging" to Rand's legacy as an iconic avatar in the field of philosophy. The grip of this Rand watch group is continuous, and manipulatively vigilant, compromising the integrity of Misplaced Pages. That this entry has been considered for "Good Article" status is particularly egregious. The caution box posted on top of this page, only confirms the lack of impartiality practiced by "interested parties."Betempte (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

You need to list specific items rather than make general accusations. There are plenty of non-randinistas who monitor the page, but we have to take an evidence based approach ----Snowded 16:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll bring one up. Rand is known for having a typically libertarian position on gay rights, which is that she's against the government discriminating but also against the government preventing discrimination. This isn't a secret, it's not even embarrassing (among libertarians), but I've had a lot of push-back when trying to fix the page so it says all this correctly. Coincidentally, this all came from a huge fan of Rand who runs a popular pro-Rand web site. MilesMoney (talk) 21:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

What is not coincidental is that there are no sources for this, because that's why you are getting pushback. Similarly, when another editor attempted to insert a long, blatantly non-neutral commentary against Rand based primarily on a posting to a political blog, it was quickly reverted by an editor who seems to have little interest in Rand but can recognize tendentious content. We are also confronted with the other side of the POV coin, editors who want to remove negative comment, no matter how well sourced. This fellow, for example, insisted that her literary and academic reception was not negative. Fortunately there was a cabal of hardened anti-Rand critics who resisted this ... oh, wait. --RL0919 (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Oxford Companion to Philosophy

This is a very high quality source because it's an academic reference, not just the opinion of some particular philosopher. The book is over a thousand pages and it's recent. It represents the mainstream view and beats out cherry-picked opinions.

Now, it does briefly mention Ayn Rand on her own, but only in the context of listing some articles that were submitted but did not pass muster because of their subject material. In other words, the editor rejected the idea that Rand deserves a biographical article. This is typical: academic philosophers generally don't think much of her, so the editor's view once again reflects the mainstream. It also helps remind us of why we can't just call her a philosopher; it would mislead readers into thinking she was someone like Bertrand Russell.

Rand gets mentioned again in an article that's not about her, though. It's about "popular philosophy", and starts by offering three different definitions. Here's the first sentence, on page 739:

"There are three main kinds of popular philosophy: first, general guidance about the conduct of life; secondly, amateur consideration of the standard, technical problems of philosophy; thirdly, philosophical popularization."

Rand only fits into the second category, and the author explicitly puts her there, removing any ambiguity. Note that none of these listed categories includes "a philosophy that just so happens to be popular among the masses"; that's an obvious but incorrect inference that we can nonetheless expect readers to make.

The author goes on to talk about how amateur isn't always bad and having a degree doesn't always make you an amateur. Then he shifts to more recent examples, writing:

"In the twentieth century amateur systems increasingly failed to find their way into print; most of them languished in typescript and photocopy. One arresting exception is 'The Social Contract of the Universe' by C. G. Stone, a most ambitious piece of deduction. There are also the works of L. L. Whyte and George Melhuish, and, in the United States, Ayn Rand, stren-uous exponent of objectivism and self-interest."

He's saying outright that her philosophy was amateur. Of course, there's no way she could be a professional philosopher if what she created was amateur philosophy, so this necessarily makes her an amateur philosopher.

If you think I'm cherry-picking these quotes, please post something I skipped but that you think is important. Otherwise, I think it's pretty clear that Rand is an amateur philosopher and Objectivism is an amateur philosophy. MilesMoney (talk) 18:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Keeping company with Aristotle is unlikely to be seen as an insult.-Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree, and yet her biggest fans are against us calling her an amateur. RL runs a Rand fan web site, which shows his biases. MilesMoney (talk) 02:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Just gotta say that SRich and RL have been awful quiet here. Guess they agree. MilesMoney (talk) 02:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I have a copy of the original, so I don't need to read via your excerpts, and I don't see a need to discuss the same topic across multiple threads on the same page. As long as 'amateur' is fueled by this one source, it isn't going to last. --RL0919 (talk) 03:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

"Amateur" is fueled by each and every mention of popular. I've asked you, both here and the other page to explain what "popular" means if not "amateur". Still waiting. Guess you agree. MilesMoney (talk) 03:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Please don't misconstrue my quietness. And please don't misconstrue RL's interest in Objectivism. Discussions on article talk pages must focus on the articles, not the editors. – S. Rich (talk) 03:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

This section is about a source for the article, but you've been silent. Guess you agree. MilesMoney (talk) 03:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We, as editors, seek to improve articles by considering policy, guidelines, etc. Guesses do not help. – S. Rich (talk)

So long as you stay quiet on the topic, we can only guess. Do you deny anything I said in this section? MilesMoney (talk) 03:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Personally I have no objection to the word "amateur". I take it as a compliment, and so would Rand, I have no doubt. As an amateur sportsman, I know perfectly well that it means only unpaid (from the latin amator, "lover") , and its connotation of "novice" is merely a hangover from the total victory achieved by the professionals in the amateur/professional sport conflict.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 03:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

@Srich -- Policy states that you should respond to Miles, not remain silent in response to his attempts to engage you in resolution of a disagreement. Miles is not "guessing" about content, and your remark to him on that score is either mistaken or disingenuous. SPECIFICO talk 03:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

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